Hi - MM - I've been reading thru all your posts, I'm printing out them so I can have reading material at work. I have a lot of study to do.

I realized (if you read my last two posts in my SUGGESTIONS? topic) that my wife is in the saame position yours was - she does not feelsafe around me, which has to be caused by an LB that I not be aware of - possibly Disrespectful Judgments (used those a lot during the first few years of our marriage.

I wouild like to talk to her about a legal separation rather than a D, although I may need to do a D to custody. I am willing to do joint custody with the provision the OM does nothing with them. I am not confident in being able to afford a lawyer - we are virtually bankrupt, my checks get us from payday to payday, her loand/scholarships, etc herlp cover expenses throughout the reat of the time.

Right now, tho, she has them hidden and its her money,so she can do what she wants - up to using all 9000 she got for a lawyer.

A lot of our problms started because I have never had the money making skills that a lot of people have - I'm great with face-to-face communication but terrible at sales, and I have no real construction/elecrtical skills. So unless I can finish my education - which was our plan until this whole A thing began - I was to go back to school once she graduated with her JD.

So I guess I need to ask - what is the best strategy for puttng together a case for a dad in a Mom state (statistically, kids go to moms even if dad is by far a better choice. I'm not a soldier, this is a war, I need soe strategical advice (not to say I am bad at strategy - I can kick butt on war-sim and strategy computer games). But concrete stuff: and ASAP. This week is critical.

Okay Pete,

Others will come on here and help. But let me get you started.

First off, a good attorney is mandatory. Look around and find out where there is an attorney that has had success with getting custody for Dads. If you need money, find it. This is the most important thing you can do.

Second, get evidence. Lots of it. You need overkill. Get evidence of the affair. Of her having the kids around the OM. Have a journal with daily interactions between her and the kids, and you and the kids. Show how you are the sole provider of emotional, physical, spiritual, educational, financial, etc of the kids.

Document EVERYTHING. We literally got all of the signout sheets from the daycare center where my two youngest went after school while my wife had returned (during false recovery) and did a count of how many times I picked them up and she picked them up over a year. It was 115 for me, 58 for her. That was just one damning piece of evidence that she had against her, and for me!

Since your kids are older, they get a say in this also. Get them to a counselor and get a sense of where they will choose, if they are given the choice where to live. The counselor will be able to find out where they lean.

Just being a good Dad is very important. Everyday. But during this process, it is highly important. You have to be everything to them and for them. And be able to prove it.

As we go thru this, your individual situation will help you understand what to do, or what questions to ask. but, you need to keep in mind, you will save a lot of money in attorney's fees if you do most of the leg work. Make his job easy!!

So, get started. And ask questions. I got custody of my kids. You can too. Just three years earlier, my wife was a SAHM and had been there for them most days. But after the affair, she was not there all that much...added the affair and her abandonment of me and them, just show how she had changed and how her actions were not a good example for her children.

The judge wont know either of you. You will have to make it very evident who is the responsible parent, and who is detrimental to your kids. Get all the help you can (evidence, lawyer, counselor for the kids, friends, etc)

Get started now!!

In His arms.

thanks for the advice - I'll do what I can for cash - maybe a loan from family. As for evidence, mostky all I hace at this time is mixed thru my journals - I'll have to sort thru them and mark pages pertenant. Also will start a checklist with school as to who drops off, who picks up.

DO I list the meals I make them everyday? Somedays I get lazy and buy pizza....

Documentation....okie.

Also, on another line, I told the kids tonight what was going on. I asked them if they knew what marriage was, who started marriage, what it is for, etc. I also askedf them if then knew what adultery was. They did - each explained in their own words - they've had some very good teachingat their school (a private Lutheran school). I then told them how much I loved them and their mom, and that she was having an affair and wants us to break up our family so that she can do what she wants. They understood (at their various levels) - and I reassured them that theim mom does love them very much but is mixed up and doesn't knowthe right thing to do right now. Of course, they don't want their family to break up and don't want any of this. I asked them if they rememberered when I did the same thing, but came imnmediately and asked their forgiveness. They both did (I'm talking about the youngest). I then called the Pastor and told him what I had done, and he is going to call them out of class this week for councelling (the school is at our church).

I now have to tell my wife what I did. That's gonna blow things completely out of the water. I doubt the fog will aver get any thicker than the moment she finds this out. I may wait till tonorrow to tell her so that I can come home tomorrow morning after work and still have kids in the house. I don't trust her to take them and leave.

Looking for all kinds of advice, especially financial - proabably have to go thru Legal Aid (that'll be so USEFUL...not!) It's such a joke here that even the hispanic migrant workers won't use it....

Anyway, another night at the ER - could use prayers!

David

Talked to the school's principal - he's going to start a log of everything he witnesses that I am doing with the kids. I'll check in with him in the morn's and afternoons when I pick up the kids. Also sent out a general prayer request/loan request to my entire family nationwide - explained that I need the attorney retainer fee, etc.

Also asked several of the churches around here that I am either friends with, or have attended in the past for prayers.

Am setting up appt with atty - am going on the assumption that God will provide what I need as He sees fit - and I know he always supplies exactly what we need, so I am confident that whatever happens, it will be the right thing.

T,

U sound more confident today than yesterday. You are formulating a plan. Better to be in control of a little than out of control, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Telling your children is hard but they are not dummies either. The one thing I learned from my then 6 year old is when he said: "mom, kids don't like t/b lied to, you know." Wow, hit between the eyes. I didn't lie to my child but I didn't make light of why his dad was not around. Son knew it. At that tender age, he told me he was too embarressed because his father was not acting like a good dad and was not good to me. He was ashamed of his dad and said so. He also told me that we would stick through this together. Is he a great guy or what? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Hi Orchid:
<strong> T, </strong>

Call me David - I keep forgetting who 'T' is - hee hee.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">U sound more confident today than yesterday. You are formulating a plan. Better to be in control of a little than out of control, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm a lot better - second week of Prozac- starting to think a little better. Plus I've printed out and read probably 100 pages of MMs trials - it's nice to know that other people that seem so well adjusted have been where I am now. I have a pretty good plan, if that danged lawyer would get back to me - couldn't get in today - he was too busy. Anyway, I have to get this underway before she does because she started with the 'prepare for alimony and child support" slings and arrows today. I do NOT intend for my kids to grow up living in a life filled with affairs, lesbians making out in front of them (which has happened, by the way) - not to offend and gays or lesbians out there in MB but I do not approve of my WW choice of 'friends'. I am fighting ti protect my children -as far as I'm concerned, Cheryl can do whatever she wants. She'll come to her senses one day - she has done a complete moral 180 from the woman I married. Today she told me she missed talking to me, I told her I missed that too. But then she started talking about her new choices, like I'm supposed to be happy for her. I stopped that conversation right there. She wants to talk, we'll talk, but it will be about our marriage, not about how to find the least painful way to break up a marriage.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Telling your children is hard but they are not dummies either. The one thing I learned from my then 6 year old is when he said: "mom, kids don't like t/b lied to, you know." Wow, hit between the eyes. I didn't lie to my child but I didn't make light of why his dad was not around. Son knew it. At that tender age, he told me he was too embarressed because his father was not acting like a good dad and was not good to me. He was ashamed of his dad and said so. He also told me that we would stick through this together. Is he a great guy or what? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> "</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's a great guy! Are you proud or what? I didn't beat around the bush yesterday either. The fact that they both knew what marriage was and could define adultery (in their own way) impressed me greatly. WW is still so sure she's going to get the kids that she wants me to find the cheapest one room apt I can find so that our oldest DS and I can live in a hovel while she parties with her college mates. My greatest fear is that I won't be able to make a strong enough case for custody, I hope my atty is as good as his ad says (LOL). Adultery, alternate lifestyles, etc., are encouraged in Oregon, courts find in favor of mom most of the time because its unfair to women to take their children away - men deserve the wrath of the gov for all the wrongs they did to women years ago. I have to have a good, well prepared case, and fast. At least, if I file right away, it will slow down the legal process for her.

Should I ask for joint custody, or sole custody with lots of visitation rights for her? I'm tempted to go with joint so that she wont start an expensive claim/counterclaim process. She told me she that if she files, she will do joint custody - but her condition is that the two youngest live with her.

God helping me, I cannot let that happen.

David

David,

Your legal questions s/b answered by your lawyer. I am not familar with the laws in your area but as a parent you should be able to show proof of where the best place for your children to live w/b. That may mean you document all these crazed conversations and episodes by journaling them as much as possible. Line up your potential witnesses and have your children evaluated by a counselor so you have proof of how this A is having an effect on them.

It is hard when a father fights for custody but in many states, more and more fathers who are the BS are getting custody. NOt all but many.

take care,
L.

David,

I got custody of my kids. Primary physical custody. Two of the three coaches that coach with me on my son's baseball team have custody of their kids. As a father, you can do it. You are right, the court tends to be stacked against you as a man. But you can use that to your advantage. How? Because the woman and her lawyer will count on that advantage, and they will nto work as hard. So, they are ill prepared for the onslaught once you reach court. You must be 3 times as prepared. You must have overkill. You must get proof, and then more proof, and then more proof. Right up until the hearing. Proof of the A. Proof of your parenting skills and how the kids rely on you. Proof of her parenting skills or lack thereof. Fill their days with activities that you are involved in, and document it. EVERYDAY. The biggest thing you can do when you go to court is to show the judge that their upbringing is being done by you, and has been for some time. It takes the mystery out of it for the judge, because you have already been doing the job. But you have to document...you have to have witnesses...you have to have PROOF!

You can go for joint custody if you want. Most of the time, it is awarded for LEGAL custody. The judge awrded my wife and I joint legal custody. But physical custody is quite different, and most judges will not award joint physical custody. They believe (and rightfully so) that the kids need stability, not bouncing back and forth. So the question in your mind should be...who will they best be with for most of the week...for school nights...for being in a home that is the right environment for them? Is it with you? Then PROVE it. And fight every step of the way.

You were right in your other post...you follow the Lord, and he will provide. But you are going to have to work hard, and not back down.

Look on Caren's recent thread. I posted Psalm 25. Read it constantly. It will help you understand that if you rely on Him, and do what you are supposed to do, He will take care of the rest.

So many people called me a fool for everythign I have done with my wife during all of this. That I took her back. And then when she left again, that I was a fool for going for custody (mothers get custody, right?). Then when I got custody, I was a fool for taking her back.

But the Lord uses the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. You listen to God...and dont let anyone dissuade you from doing what is right. The Lord hates divorce. You are fighting for your marriage and for your children.

Who do you think that God is well pleased with today? Know that and trust Him.

In His arms.

MM - I had to let you know what happened today anyway - er - yesterday - it's 6 in the morning now and I just got off work....

Last night my wife came home and wanted to talk about starting to divide things up - that I needed to get my name off the car insurance and onto my own and all that, and then she brought up that she wanted me to split the tax refund this year with her. I told her absolutely no way - she had already made a commitment to the kids school that she would pay their tuition with her school loan and she had backed off on that, so I have earmarked MY tax return for their school.

I asked her about joint custody again, and by gum if the strangest thing didn't happen. She asked me to sit down and talk about our relationship! She said she hadn't seen a lawyer yet - she was still so confused about what to do. She told me that the OM had told her that he loves her (I didn't remark on that at all) and that he made her feel like she was appreciated (made a note to myself right there - that's the first real EN she's brought up - something to work on!) and than he talked to her as though he cared about what she was saying and that I didn't used to do that (next EN - conversation - I've been working on that one). She said she was so torn between what was going on - she didn't know what to tell the kids, and she 'knew that I wouldn't help her support the kids' (still thinking I'm blindly handing over custody, I guess), and that had her scared because she doesn't have any money - makes me wonder where the 9000.00 she got two weeks ago went....

Anyway, as the conversation went on, I kept reflecting back to her what it sounded like she was feeling - just to see if I was hearing her correctly. All of the sudden she started crying. She said she had read part of my journal (talk about 'spying'! Hee hee) and that what I said in there was so harsh - I had been very angry about the way the MC had addressed our marriage and how she just jumped onto his wagon that I wrote out what could only be described as extreme LBs (except that they were true observations of her behavior - just that it would have been hard to express them without LBing out loud). She asked me if I really hated her that much.

I told her, no, I adore you absolutely. She started crying even harder. At that point my work called - they needed me to come in for the evening - which I really didn't want to do at the time, but money is money.... In any event, I told her that the OM has just ended his marriage, is lonely, and is in rebound - if she were thinking sensibly she'd know that in a flash. I told her that she couldn't have both of us. I told her that when the dust settled and all the clouds were gone from all this confusion, that when she stood up and looked around for a friend, her real one would be standing there for her - me. She really started crying then. I left it at that, didn't press it any farther - just wanted her to know that I am not moving, I am going to be like a rock she can cling to when she finally realizes how lost she is.

She did tell me one other thing that stung quite a bit, but also enlightened me. I dunno if you remember that he turned her down when she offered to have sex with him a couple of weeks ago - just before I confronted her. She said that the reason he turned her down was that she went over there just for the sex, and he wanted her love - and she was so torn between her family and him that she couldn't do it - and he told her that he didn't want her if she was attached to me. DUH. I'd like to do him much bodily harm, and then not notice him when they bring him down to the ER for treatment, but that's jealous David speaking.

The thing was, she couldn't apply cut the strings between us at that point, and she still can't.

I'm not counting on this as a big victory - I've learned too much here to expect this to be much of a breakthru - but I will sleep better today knowing that there is perhaps a little sunshine poking thru that fog on occasion.

God bless you all

David

Good Show, David!

Keep your eyes on the goal and keep slogging.
I may be in your situation soon, so I'm watching.

-AD

... and David,

It would be a good idea to secure a copy of your journal/diary just in case your w decides to walk off with it - and keep your D strategy where she can't see it.

-AD

David,

You were brilliant! You kept your boundaries, and still Plan Aed her. Perfectly done. No LBs!! You should be proud.

Your wife is STILL your wife. Even the OM has recognized that. Even she does. You are in the final full court press.

But a word of caution here, and I am sure JustLearning is going to come on here at some point and back me up here. The caution is this...she shows her feelings here for you (and they are real!!). So, what will you do? Well, like most BSs, you'll back down. you wont see the lawyer, you wont protect yourself and your kids. Yo uwill give her another chance because yo uare afraid that if you play "hardball" that she will run to the OM. But David...she already HAs run to the OM. Right now, she is on the fence.

What will happen if you back down now? Well, she will continue to cake eat at BEST. At worst, she will use your grace as an opportunity to take advantage of you (to file first, to clean out the house of all belongings while you are at work, etc). Even though she has these feelings (she always had them), she still got into an affair. She still is ruled by fog. A moment of clarity thru the fog still does not end the crisis.

Now, what happens if you move forward on your plans? Well, first off, you protect yourself and the kids and you come at this from a position of strength. Second, you can weather the storm better because at least you have settled the issues dealing with your kids (one less thing on your plate to worry about). And what about your wife? Well, if you have continued to Plan A, if you have continued to tell her what you told her in this last conversation, then after her anger subsides from you filing for custody, etc...she will recognize that you are still there.

Here is what I would do (and I actually did right after I filed for custody). Isent her a letter. It told her that I still loved her, that I always will. That I want our marriage and want it to work out. But, that I had to do what I thought was right. And I had to protect my family. That I was our children's father, and I didnt have kids and not accept my responsibility for their care and upbringing. That means for me to be there everyday. Now, I also said that I agree that they need their Mom also. But, it is not my decision to end the marriage. And if the marriage ends, that one of us will not be in their daily lives. And I just cannot be the Dad that is not there for them.

I concluded by telling her that I still want this marriage. That the door is still open, should she end things with the OM. That our children deserve a house with both of us there, happy and healthy. That should she change her mind, then these court proceedings will not be necessary.

And then David, leave it at that. Continue to Plan A...and continue to go for custody. You see, she WILL respect that!! She may not say it outwardly...but inward, she wil lrespect a man that stands up for his responsibilities.

Again, great job. But dont you back down now. Trust the Lord to deal with her (I think He already is!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). You keep moving until she shows actions, not just words and tears.

In His arms.

Hi all - MM, I'm not backing down - funniest thing just happened. I was just on the phone checking VM (atty and I are playing phone tag), and my wife rushed into the house. She had forgotten the cord for her laptop, and needed it (her battery lasts about an hour). She grabbed it, said a real quick, but friendly (good LORD that feels good) 'Hi.' and rushed back out of the house. I had a question for her, so I stepped outside and, lo! she's driving the OMs truck. I just calmly stood there and watched her - she was really embarrassed. I waved goodbye and went back inside.

About 30 seconds later she called my cell phone - appologizing all over the place for driving his truck - apparently she had loaned her car to a friend to use (does that all the time). She had to have a vehicle to get to the house to pick up hre cord. I just said, calmly, "I see." And then I asked her the question I needed, got the answer, and then she went back to appologizing - said she had been hurrying so that I wouldn't see that she was driving his truck. She said 'No matter what I do, I can't get it right'. I just asked when she'd be home so I could have dinner ready (hopefully won't get called to work tonight) and said goodbye.

That felt good. Heh heh heh heh.

Hi David-

Mortar referred me to this post because of the bang up Plan A you were doing. Good Job!!!

I do a really good job, and then I have a meltdown...back and forth, back and forth....but good for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good Luck and God Bless!

-Caren

David,

You are starting to get it. Keep listening to MM. It is a very delicate balance between being very resolute in your goals, taking care of your family and yes even your W and still being open to her.

She has made a fool of herself and she knows it, but she is not going to admit it for quite awhile. You have to stick with the plan, see the lawyer and start to move toward protecting yourself and your kids. I think MM is right, she will start to see you in a new light, when you don't cave, you fight, and you are resolute.

Tough stuff David, and it definitely is NOT for wimps. You are doing well.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CarenMc:
<strong> Hi David-

Mortar referred me to this post because of the bang up Plan A you were doing. Good Job!!!

I do a really good job, and then I have a meltdown...back and forth, back and forth....but good for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Good Luck and God Bless!

-Caren </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the compliment! Hey - I mess up too, back and forth, etc. There just comes a point where you suddenly realize that everything is depending on you, on doing the right thing, and that your WS just might not exactly fully appreciate what you are doing. In fact, they might even get mad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The trick I learned was this: keep in mind you love your spouse, and they have no idea what to do. If you can, find the lighthouse post.

As a matter of fact, I wrote it out, and, being the Eng. Lit student that I am, I revised it, solidified it - I think I'll post my revision on here just so I can keep it in mind when I need it, and you can read it too.....

Hopefully, Ark^^ won't get too mad at me...

The Lighthouse

Your spouse is in huge conflict. The good news is; and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now. The competition that we believe exists with the Other Person is a shallow, empty reflection of God's light in this world. It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush.

Their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now. Though the need to go back again and again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong, they do not like what they are doing.

Their actions toward you, the children, the Other Person, and themselves, as well as God, keep them from engaging in any type of real interaction with any real depth and truth.

All they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life. Yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lies down, regardless of whom is next to them.

They are the living cliche of 'no matter where you go, there you are.'

They are lost to themselves.

And you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home, even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing the beacon.

You become the lighthouse. You fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary.

Just visualize yourself as a lighthouse.

You offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get. You invite them toward it. Let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way.

You cannot trust them right now, but you know that, so they can't hurt you right now. They will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better.

You show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions. Set clear boundaries that the Other Person is not part of your children's lives...without Love Busting. Offer alternatives that let them see the children, but be clear that the Other Person is to have no access to them. You fill the children's lives with stability. They deserve it and need it more than anything else.

Do not discuss or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements. Seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly.

Your spouse is very lonely and sad right now, but that is ok. No one can stay very long in that chaos. Remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos, and eventually they will see that you are the only one who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most.

Be the lighthouse.


Thanks ark^^

<small>[ February 01, 2005, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

Everyone please ignore this post - it's just a public venting - maybe it'll benefit someone somewhere someday.

I can do this 'cause she's not here and I'm not in danger of LBing her. I love my wife, but I absolutely hate the WS. D*** her. All the pain she's causing, and while I know it is affecting her, it just seems that she could care less. Driving around town in his truck. Cuddling up with him to have him tell her how much he appreciates her and loves her - after my 18 G**D****** years of loving her and being with her. What does that bumbling putrescent fool know about my wife? How the H*** can he love her, the fool.

How could a brilliant, wise woman fall for such a stupid, stupid, stupid ruse? I HATE myself for causing this to happen. I don't deserve this, I don't even deserve her, if I can't make her feel loved after 18 years of life with her. I want to break everything in the house, burn it to the ground, pack up the kids and dissappear - leave her to that insignificant insect and the germs she calls friends - let her suffer FOREVER for f***ing with our children and me like this, and flaunting it like its a badge of courage or some sort of reward for earning a place of respect along with the rest of us who have had affairs, and know the damage and pain they cause. Dammit. She KNOWS the pain its causing. She KNOWS what pain is to come. Dammit, she even knows that the thing with him can't possibly last. She HAS to know that - she's not that stupid. (Long list of strong curses I don't have the will to type out). I'm sitting her crying like a baby and she's out having dinner, cuddling up, God knows what else - I can only imagine. She may not even be with him. But my mind is playing its tricks with me. I had a great dinner woth the kids - my daughter made a restaurant, with menus, a centerpiece on the table (a doll in a pie plate) and I cooked us food, and we sat and prayed for mom - that she study hard tonight and we prayed fo strength for our family, and we had dinner. But there was that G**D****** empty chair there.

At times this feels more than I can bear. It's in God's hands.

I feel better now. Thanks for letting me rip it up here.

Davidiot

Well for God's sake. Guess I'll post another one here to keep myself busy. Got the kids all ready for school tomorrow, dishes done, cleaned house, doing laundry. Wife IMd me about 4 hours ago saying she had to run a friend home and then would be back to the school library to study, and would be right back in touch with me.

She always has MSN on, so I know that unless whe hsa blocked me, she isn't back from taking her friend home. Oh whatever. What did I expect? LOL. Im pretty sure I know exactly where she is, and I could have my PI friend run over and take some photos, but I keep wanting to trust her.

Good lord we can be idiots sometimes.

PLAN A...PLAN A....PLAN A......

Somebody hit me with a 2x4 - I need it!

David

<small>[ February 01, 2005, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>