Well... Don't know if you remember me (computer was messed up for a loooong time - youngest daughter got it back up couple of weeks ago - so far I just came back here a couple of times to read but hadn't posted again yet. Even thought maybe I was done her and 'moving on'...)

Anyway, WH has claimed for a full year that he's broke up with OW for good, but no mention of wanting to reconcile. The year long legal seperation over in September, divorce filed, we signed everything, just waiting for the judge to sign off.

Then WH gets following messages to me:

Can't go to daughters' upcoming skating competition as planned... suddenly realizes he can't afford to...

His job is supposedly going to give him a phone to use, free of charge, not just for work purposes, but even to call his family (long distance because he moved to another state for job). So "DON'T CALL!" (his emphasis) his other phone # anymore...
ONLY call the new # (as I had ended all phone contact with him several months ago - never pick up when he calls me just hand the phone to nearest daughter or let it go to answering machine, he's basically telling our daughters they have to use new phone # to contact him. More later on why this is MAJORLY suspect.
NEVER before has a job given him a phone to use, even for JUST work purposes. ALL his previous jobs provided a beeper...

He says DMV just sent him notice to renew registration on my car so he's going to take care of that for me (um he's living in an RV park, just has a P.O. Box, and supposedly DMV in this state sent something to his P.O. Box in the state he just moved to? Nope - IF DMV did send him something it was to the OW's address in this state, same address that was on the title when he signed it over to me.) I'll explain momentarily why his offer to renew the registration for me is SOOOO suspect...

And now he claims the cut in pay he took when the old job ended and this one started didn't really happen back in November... Now he says he was still getting a higher contractor rate at new job but NOW he will be going from contractor to permanent employee so NOW his pay will go way down. So now he can't continue to send any extra money to help pay for daughters' skating...

OK, Here's the real deal:

He didn't have any problem affording going to daughters' competition last time they were competing in that town (between where he lives and we live). And he hadn't said anything to daughters (until message today) about maybe not being able to go again. In fact just two weeks ago he almost came to a competition that it would have cost him more to come to - only didn't come because he wouldn't have been able to make the drive round trip plus have time to actually stay and watch them skate all in one weekend. BUT OW strictly controlled time he spent with his daughters and of course he was never allowed to go to any out of town skating competitions - spending weekend with his family and OW not welcome.

OK the phone thing is REALLY telling. I JUST added free sprint to sprint option a couple of weeks ago so WH and daughters could call each other free of charge. Phone job is supposedly providing is NOT Sprint and he says he can't afford to keep the Sprint phone on EVEN if all he uses it for is free calls to daughters! SO "DON'T CALL" that Sprint number anymore!!!!!
Claimed the monthly fee just to keep that phone active would be way too expensive and then said (YUP I called him to question all this - probably shouldn't have I know) that even though he'd have to pay for calls to daughters now it'd still be cheaper... The I guess remembered he had claimed the job was going to pay for all his calls on the new phone LOL so he switched to claiming that I was wrong about the free sprint to sprint deal... Long distance charges still applied... Yea that's it... I told him he was lying - that I KNEW that the deal was ALL sprint to sprint calls were free with the service I had added and that it was the same deal I used to call my family who live farther away than he does. At this point he resorted to yelling and cussing something (incoherent).

In past OW did not allow him to have any phone contact with his daughters in her presence. His cell phone had to be shut off whenever he was with her and he told our daughters they had to leave a message for him (which they refused to do). But during the few hours per week OW allowed him to have visitation with daughters he had to leave his cell phone on so OW could contact him.

For several months last year WH told daughters and most of our mutual friends he was going to GIVE us his best car as the car I was driving daughters' to activities in was too unreliable.
But OW fought with WH over allowing us to even BORROW that car when we needed it to get to out-of-state competitions that we NEEDED his car for.
WH signed the title of that car over to me about 9 months after he and OW broke up but I was planning to change registration in March (when it expires). So if DMV sent something about registration renewal would they have sent it to OW's address? Why not send it to me as I gave them this address when I changed the title to my name? Doubtful it was sent to WH's P.O. Box in another state that DMV would have no reason to even know about. Either WH did not get a notice from DMV or OW forwarded it to him. And now I'm paranoidly worrying was WH planning to register car in OW's or WH's name instead of mine? Just in case I am going to DMV first thign tomorrow morning to register the car myself even though it will cost me. (Curious WH suddenly so short on $ for other things - things OW would not allow him to do - Things that mean a LOT to his daughters - BUT was offering to pay for my auto registration.)

Daughters could always tell when their Daddy and OW were broke up or back together as she controlled his time with them, would not allow him to spend any extra money on them above support settlement, and would not tolerate any phone contact between WH and daughters in her presence. WH once told me that OW said: "You assured me your family was totally out of your life - I won't be 2nd place". WH also told me once that OW was jealous that he had three daughters with me but didn't want to have any more kids - said it was a bond he shared with me that he would never share with her then. She wanted him to choose between his family and her. WH and OW broke up literally dozens of times over this ultimatum. And WH would try to continue contact with both OW and us, after assuring OW that all contact with us was ended, and assuring us that all contact with OW was ended. Then he'd get caught (by OW, or me or daughters) and end up with none of us for a while until he lied his way back into all our lives again.

SOOOO...

I don't know whether to laugh or cry, that after all this time, and I honestly was really starting to belive that I was moving on, but still really wanting/needing to at least take comfort from OW & WH relationship being over too, and NOW I guess WH has managed to con OW back into his game... and I want to cry because he STILL loves her more than me and our daughters combined.

I want it to be hilarious that he's still such a fool for her that he's willing to go on however short a leash she wants to strap on him. If so, part of me hopes she breaks his heart, causes him to feel some of the pain he inflicted on me and ESPECIALLY our daughters.

But it really hurts that he's willing to shove his daughters aside for the OW and then expects his daughters to still contact him behind OW's back. I refuse to give my daughters the new phone for him. He will have to try to explain it to them himself. And YES they were told about the free sprint call option weeks ago when I activated it. They'll know what he's up to with all these sudden changes, the day after Valentine's Day, following the same old rules he had to whenever he and OW made up in past.

sigh

Hi MM! Nice to see you.

Your STBXWH has the backbone of a jellyfish. His OW sounds nothing less than evil. Yuck! Let them have each other and be glad he is gone.

You're daughters deserve so much better, and so do you.

and I want to cry because he STILL loves her more than me and our daughters combined.

this is not love meremortal..not even close...this is controling cruel CHILDISH manipulation...and though neither are victims for it exactly what they create and tolerate....this is not love....

in the rare few cases that these type of relationshipd thrive.....that
when a marriage goes bad and infidelity occurs and two people really believe that they should be together they bend over backwards to create a transition that is least offensive and painful...
to their partners and ESPECIALLY to the children..

I agree with not you being the one to tell your daughters about the hot-line phone...you should come with a good name for..

like daddies keep the crazy woman from flipping her wig phone.....

I hope when he started to yell you hung up...

I hope that are seeking legal counsel to have full disclosure of his true monetary assetts she is a direct danger to your daughters well being and financial security...

I hope you learn to babble back things that are short sweet and tender....that make him think...

things like ...

I" was talking to a person the other day...who doesn't like children....I find it so hard to connect with anyone who is so cruel to children don't you....oh well never mind tell me about this phone...?" batt your eyes even though he can't see you.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

this other woman you have on your hand...

evil personnified....

ps you ARE going to call the exact number he doesn't want you to..AREN'T YOU????

ark
pure evil...

Hi ARK,

Great to hear from you!

"this is not love meremortal..not even close...this is controling cruel CHILDISH manipulation...and though neither are victims for it exactly what they create and tolerate....this is not love...."

Thanx - I will try not to forget it again. What they think of as their special/soulmate/hot romance is in reality him lying to her and wanting to continue a relationship with us behind her back. And her demand that he have NO contact with his family or else is purely sick. I'm glad he's so foolishly (addictively) "in love" with such a psycho, gold-digging, control freak. Because when the "in love" stage wears off he has absolutely NO CLUE (or intention) to continue/mature a love relationship. Nope - he's just on to the next "in love" experience with the next OW. And when the "in love" stuff fades he is going to feel SOOOOOOO trapped with this crazy controlling OW LOL!

"in the rare few cases that these type of relationshipd thrive.....that
when a marriage goes bad and infidelity occurs and two people really believe that they should be together they bend over backwards to create a transition that is least offensive and painful...
to their partners and ESPECIALLY to the children.."

Definitely not the case here LOL. Both WH and OW are extremely selfish, cold-hearted, and only looking out for themselves. And even though they are still so "in love" they don't even care about what's really best for each other apparently - both looking out just for their individual selfish wants.

"I agree with not you being the one to tell your daughters about the hot-line phone...you should come with a good name for..

like daddies keep the crazy woman from flipping her wig phone....."

Oh yea, I'm not touching that with a ten-hundred foot pole. I'll leave it up to Daddy to try to explain to his EXTREMELY savvy (and seen this same routine dozens of times before) daughters. If he wants them to have the new phone # he can give it to them along with his lame lies as to why this change is needed.

"I hope when he started to yell you hung up..."

Absolutely!

"I hope that are seeking legal counsel to have full disclosure of his true monetary assetts she is a direct danger to your daughters well being and financial security..."

All the divorce details have been worked out for some time, paperwork all signed, judge just has to sign now. He could go back to court to try to get the support reduced (especially since his pay has decreased sharply) but so far she's just demanded that he not spend a cent above the support agreement on his daughters (like can't help pay for their skating).

"I hope you learn to babble back things that are short sweet and tender....that make him think...

things like ...

I was talking to a person the other day...who doesn't like children....I find it so hard to connect with anyone who is so cruel to children don't you....oh well never mind tell me about this phone...?" batt your eyes even though he can't see you...."

No - I mostly just don't talk to him at all (hadn't had a phone or e-mail conversation with him for a LOOOONG time until the phone call last night). But I was just telling my mother that when I start dating again if I met a man who was willing to 'assure' me his family was totally out of his life OR who wanted assurance from ME that I would be willing to give up relationships with my children for him, I wouldn't want anything to do with the creep. IMO WH should try telling OW SHE has to sever her relationship with her daughter and the father of that child or else. (NO - I wouldn't really wish that on her daughter - but it might help OW realize how selfish and sick her ultimatum is that MY daughters be shut out.)

"this other woman you have on your hand...

evil personnified...."

I think she's greedy and insanely jealous/insecure. I mean she starts sleeping with a married man and then whines to him that unless he has kids with her too she can never get over him having that bond with his wife! WH and I have been married 25 years - DUH! he's going to have shared some things with me that the young bimbo-du-jour hasn't.

And about the vehicle. I figure THEY went shopping for it together. It was supposed to be THEIRS for the family she envisioned they would eb starting together. So she feels she has some legitimate claim to it I guess. Anyway I called DMV this morning and was assured that with the title in my name WH could not reacquire ownership even if he did renew registration in his (or OW's) name. Just in case, I called WH and said since he was offering to pay for the registration renewal to just send the renewal notice and the check to cover the cost to me and I would take care of it. And I told him that DMV said the title being in my name granted me legal ownership even if he does try to register it to himself or the OW. He said, "Oh the title IS in your name now?" I responded, of course, you signed it over to me, remember? But he said he wasn't sure if I had gone to DMV yet to finalize it... VERY interesting... So he was thinking the title was still in his name and most likely WAS up to what I suspected - planning to take the car back! I was wondering how he was going to satisfy that part of her ultimatum.

"ps you ARE going to call the exact number he doesn't want you to..AREN'T YOU????"

LOL That's exactly what my Mom said. And she agreed that I shouldn't tell them about the new # - not just for reason that it should be HIS responsibility (& squirming when daughters question why). Mom said let the girls just keep callign the old number so he'll get in trouble with OW. I did call the old # last night and this morning. But I won't be calling either # myself. I'll go back to getting on with my life, which doesn't involve any sort of subversive, furtive sneaking around behind anyone's back LOL.

I'm going to start attending Parents Without Partners dances and enjoying my freedom from the sort of sicko restrictions and lying WH and OW feel are necessary to continue their affair.

yeah, pretty evil, and MAJORLY disgusting IMO.

WH complained that my thinking OW is back in picture because all her rules are back in effect, made him sound like some kind of loser... exactly.

OK now this is really weird.

Earlier today while I was vacuuming the phone rang. I grabbed it without checking to see who was calling. WH

I guess the recent bimbo blip on the radar is already over. No doubt because he couldn't meet her conditions.

So I guess he figured it was time to try door # 2, consolation prize, me.

He said he was thinking maybe we should just pack up and move to where he is and 'give it our best effort'.

I asked him how that would be different than the other times he said he was giving it his best effort? Paused to wait for response... still waiting... nothing.

So I proceeded.

I reminded him that we'd discussed 'trying' vs making a committment before. And that what I needed was a firm committment from him that he loved me and our daughters enough to take responsibility for learning and making whatever changes would ensure our marriage would be successful.

OK, I probably should have paused here to see if he might respond... But I continued:

I told him I read a book about how some men feel driven to pursue a woman until they get her and then they feel just as driven to escape because they feel trapped. I said I think he feels like that and should find out why he feels that way and what he can do about it so our marriage would have a chance.

Then he spoke: He blurted out "See this is why I can't be with you - You talk too much!" and hung up.

BTW that book did say that the longer a woman's in a relationship with a guy like that the shorter the cycles get. I think WH was going for the record.

So let's see, he supposedly was ready to give it his best effort, wanted me to pack up and move myself and daughters away from friends/ activities, and presumably try to live the rest of my life with him without exceeding a 5 minute conversation limit?

Frankly I don't think it's how much I said but WHAT I said. He probably hoped that 'give it best effort' would pass as committment? It does HINT at it... while leaving the 'well I tried but it didn't work out' door WIDE open.

So once again, he 'tried' but I 'drove him away'.

LOL

WH called back last night.

Said I must have misunderstood when he called earlier.

See he wasn't really suggesting/offering we really get back together. He claimed he was just saying he "WISHED" something like that was possible because of his concerns for our daughters...

Nope - he's lying - the word wish was not uttered at all in previous conversation. He said he thought we should 'give it our best effort'. His 'best effort' lasted a few minutes and ended because I had made it clear that I needed a committment, not a mere effort.

My response to this claim that he hadn't really suggested reconciliation: "Oh so you were just saying something like you wish there really was a Santa Claus?"

(So I guess he had just called to chat about a rhetorical scenario? Hey can you imagine what it would be like if we tried to get back together? Of course that's not possible but just think about it. And what if the moon really is made out of cheese?)

Yup - that was it. Because (according to WH) he really did already give it his best effort in the past but *I* just wasn't happy so it didn't work out!

SO I'm supposed to assume that he broke up our marriage and family because he was concerned that *I* wasn't happy in the marriage?!?!? for whatever mysterious reason...

can't possibly be all those affairs he had, his insistance that we NOT do a darn thing together or work on marriage (if it's not broke don't fix it) and just trust him that he won't fool around again. No we don't need to go to MC, talk about why he's a serial adulterer, or even to talk to each other about anything let alone go out on dates with each other...

AND, unhappy, scared (that he'd have another affair) and unfulfilled (because he flat out refused to talk about fulfilling each others needs within the marriage) as I was, *I* wasn't the one who felt trapped, and bored, and sought freedom and entertainment with another OP...

But yeah, that must be it:
He already tried everything possible to make me feel happy/loved/secure. But even though I did not complain or nag him to try to get my needs met, he could tell I just wasn't happy so he left me for another OW so I could find happiness elsewhere?

BTW, I said VERY little during this phone call last night - mostly listened. And what little I did say I said very quietly, calmly and slowly. The phone call ended up being mostly awkward silences.

He ended it with so I'll call you and we can talk some more tomorrow.

I don't see any reason to pick up the phone if he calls back. I will either let it go to the answering machine or hand it to the closest daughter (assume he's calling to talk to his daughters - not me). This is how I was handling all calls from him for for past several months until the other day.

OR.... alternative babble back option if he calls back to 'talk more':

I could contribute to the let's fantasize about things that can't possibly happen chat:

You know what I was thinking about the other day? What if there really are Leprauchans? I think I should add a little Leprauchan door to the house just in case (a local Irish pub/restaurant has a wee door).

Or should I apologize that HE invested SO MUCH effort into our marriage, went to MC, listened to me, talked to me, took me out and treated me like a lady, flirted with me (NONE of which he actually did with ME but when he got bored enough sitting at home with me and kids would wander off and do with OW) but I was still so unhappy that I turned to OM to get my needs met(which I did NOT do) And of course I should apologize for destroying the marriage and family because of my failure to be happy in spite of all HE did to try to make ME happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Then he spoke: He blurted out "See this is why I can't be with you - You talk too much!" and hung up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TRANSLATION

"What you said described me to a tee."

Pep (calls 'em as I sees 'em)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by meremortal:
I had made it clear that I needed a committment, not a mere effort.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For all BS's reading.....

THIS is what a basic clear solid boundary protection looks like!

Read and learn....

Carry on Mere Dear.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
He ended it with so I'll call you and we can talk some more tomorrow.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you should talk to him .... unless you are in Plan B.

Be sure to write down all the funny stuff he blurts out ... and you stay cool and mostly listen, reflecting back to him what your understanding is of what he said.

And... if he complains you are not saying much ---> "You said I talk to much. You talk, it's your turn now."

When he has said everyything he has to say, ask him: "Are you done talking?" ... "Yes" ... "Well, OK then, I've got some things to do. Call me when you have more things to say."

YOU OFFER NOTHING BUT YOUR EARS! (this will confuse the man and make him intensly curious)

Keep the line of communication open just a bit longer... he's close to a breaking point.

Make this a part of your Plan A a'la Mere ....

This is pretty interesting.

How long can you maintain your cool? Just say nothing when you want to be rude. Just listen ... and report back ... I am getting a sense of how desperate he's becoming.

Pep

<small>[ February 18, 2005, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

"How long can you maintain your cool?"

Well, according to friends, family and family/marriage counselors... "Don't you EVER get angry?!?!?"

LOL

Anyway he hasn't called today.

Still not sure if I'll pick up but if I do I totally agree I should just let him talk.

If nothing else it gives me something to giggle about later.

No seriously, I feel sorry for the guy.
But I can't forget how much emotional, verbal (and even some physical) abuse he inflicted.
He absolutely HAS to deal with his problems or else I'm in no way interested in a future with him - not even as his freind.

What a JERK!

YIKES!

Just watched Oprah show about husbands who murdered their wives. The part about warning signs really creeped me out.

I think I'm going to have nightmares tonight.

I'm glad he's moved to another state.

WH hasn't called. I'm glad because I don't know if I want to talk to him anyway. If I pick up the phone I will definitely keep quiet and just let him talk.

I laugh about it sometimes but my WH really is sick and needs help. I've prayed for years that he would get help and of course have told him repeatedly he has to get help or I won't be part of his life. And you know how some people have to hit bottom before they'll change? Well some people don't even get help then - they just snap and do something really crazy. That's what scares me the most. I honestly don't know what he's going to do when the divorce is final and I start dating.

Like I said, I'm really glad he lives in another state now.

Why did you marry him?

Pep

This is interesting:

http://www2.oprah.com/relationships...l?contentId=con_20041103_drstosny_03.xml

there was a link to it at the Oprah site.

Pepperband - I married him because he used to act as if he was head over heels in love with me. From the time we met until after we were married he was the most romantic guy you could imagine. He asked me out for 6 months before I agreed to date him (old boyfriend and I were breaking up). Everybody we worked with was trying to talk me into dating him.

BTW, I didn't get to meet his family until we were engaged... They lived about an hour drive away from where we lived. Then I only met them a couple of times before we moved even farther away. So it took a long time to discover all the weird family stuff because I only saw them every few years. Before we were married WH never flirted with anyone in front of me and it really hurt when I started seeing him treat other women the same way he did when he pursued me. But he would just complain that I was acting jealous and that guys who flirt don't have affairs... Eventually I found out that wasn't true. He was having one night stands on business trips. But I wouldn't find out about those until later. He went to some MC with me (just a few sessions here and there), would promise to change, but refused to talk about it or to work on marriage.

This was affair # 7 plus his midlife crisis plus unresolved issues about his childhood hitting him because abusive step-father was dying of cancer. He just went whacko a few years ago and nothing's been the same since.

He's created this huge set of lies that his mommy, sisters, co-workers, and OW swallowed.
He admits he doesn't know how to save our marriage while also saving face about all his lies. He's even suggested at times that I cover for him - either see him secretly without his family (and OW) knowing or let him tell others I forced him to come back to me.

He says I'm being vindictive and care too much what others think because I won't jump at this offer LOL

<small>[ February 18, 2005, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

No call from WH yesterday.

And no, I did not sit and wait by the phone - was very busy and went lots of places.

Actually a little but disappointed he didn't call but a lot relieved.

At this point his fog talk is just a waste of my time.

I've decided he's just not the go-to guy.
He just doesn't have it in himself to step up and do what needs to be done. I want a REAL marriage, a covenant marriage. And he just doesn't understand what that means.

Your know, I watched Oprah yesterday because of your comment about the show. (I am in Pacific time zone)

It was very interesting.

I thought this comment by the psychologist was particularly germane: (paraphrasing)

"A wife who kills her husband is doing so in order to remove her husband OUT of her life.

But

A man who kills his wife is doing so in order to stop his wife from leaving him." (in most cases)

Pretty daunting!

Pep

((((((((((((((MM))))))))))))))))

Oh, MM, I can so empathize with you. If I didn't know better, I'd say our H's are related. Constantly fence-sitting, turning to us when they are 'needy' and there is noone else to fill their needs, and saying they will put in their 'best effort' but their best effort is equivalent to no effort at all.

I hope he comes to his senses.

PS - your H does NOT love the OW. He loves himself - too much! And that is why no R will ever work with him.....until he learns that LOVE is about giving, caring, and doing for others.

You are a strong and wonderful woman. My best wishes to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

<small>[ February 19, 2005, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: L.I.T ]</small>

Hi Pepperband,

Yeah the info on that show got me pretty scared yesterday. I was hoping WH wouldn't call back and that he could just drift even farther away. Most likely he'll meet somebody new at his new job and just sort of forget all about me...

Even though he sometimes claims that I just wasn't happy in the marriage (implying THAT was his goal but he just couldn't achieve it) he has also said hateful things like:

"No man would ever want you"

"You're too old to remarry"

"You're too old to have sex with"

(Latest OW was 18 years younger than him)

So although he soemtimes tries to pretend he wanted the marriage to end so I could find happiness elsewhere, he definitely did not predict me ending up with another man!

I doubt he's really near a breaking point - not the positive sort of breaking point anyway where he will finally get it and be ready to make the needed changes.

I think he's just feeling lonely because he's moved away from OW, his friends, and us (wife & kids). Plus the divorce SHOULD be final any day now...

I really believe it's far more likely he will just settle down when he starts dating somebody new.

If that doesn't happen soon and he does reach the bottom I fear he will snap and be thinking more along the 'if I can't have my wife then nobody will have her' mentality.

Another thing they mentioned in that show that REALLY scared me was that these guys snap when it's exposed that they have created huge lies and a secret life that they are ashamed of. THAT is a MAJOR issue with my WH. He's lied to so many people for so many years and I simply can't go along with any of his versions of reconciliation (which ALL emphasize me having to cover for his lies, take all the blame, and even pretend I'm forcing him to reconcile)!

My WH really does believe that he can con me back into his life, because I did stand by him through so much in the past, and because he knows I do love him. And if/when he finally gets it that he's not going to get his way who knows what he'll do? As much as it would make us feel hurt and rejected, my daughters and I would probably be much safer if he fell so in live with somebody else that he wouldn't even be interested in us anymore.

Unless he made the same sort of changes that would make reconciliation possible I can't even picture a friendship with him working out. So as I said, I'm really glad he moved away.

Also, when pondering what my future husband might be like, I am definitely thinking of a BIG, brawny sort of fella (firefighter, policeman, military man, farmer, lumberjack...) LOL I want somebody who can protect me and my daughters, both emotionally and physically.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"No man would ever want you"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just for fun, I'm going to answer him as if I were you .....

"Aren't you a man? You wanted me at least a little, we've made some kids together!"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"You're too old to remarry"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I'm not going to remarry you. Don't worry."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"You're too old to have sex with"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Does that include anything with batteries? How about sex with other women? Sex with myself?"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> hee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> hee <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> hee

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So although he sometimes tries to pretend he wanted the marriage to end so I could find happiness elsewhere, he definitely did not predict me ending up with another man!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just keep whatever good things you are doing for yourself and your own happiness... private, very VERY private. Don't share any good news with him. Wave no flags in front of this bull.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I doubt he's really near a breaking point - not the positive sort of breaking point anyway where he will finally get it and be ready to make the needed changes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe you. You know him best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think he's just feeling lonely because he's moved away from OW, his friends, and us (wife & kids). Plus the divorce SHOULD be final any day now...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you have full custody?

What visitation provisions are there?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really believe it's far more likely he will just settle down when he starts dating somebody new.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hopefully. Are you his first wife?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If that doesn't happen soon and he does reach the bottom I fear he will snap and be thinking more along the 'if I can't have my wife then nobody will have her' mentality.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then just stay silent on subjects concerning your personal life. Deny anything that you feel might make him feel possesive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another thing they mentioned in that show that REALLY scared me was that these guys snap when it's exposed that they have created huge lies and a secret life that they are ashamed of. THAT is a MAJOR issue with my WH. He's lied to so many people for so many years and I simply can't go along with any of his versions of reconciliation (which ALL emphasize me having to cover for his lies, take all the blame, and even pretend I'm forcing him to reconcile)!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Never compromise your integrity in order to motivate someone to stay with you. It's always a disaster.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My WH really does believe that he can con me back into his life, because I did stand by him through so much in the past, and because he knows I do love him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Loving someone does not include compromising your desire to live truthfully.

Take a look at the part of yourself that wiggled her principles around to permit this .... and fix it like a leak.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And if/when he finally gets it that he's not going to get his way who knows what he'll do? As much as it would make us feel hurt and rejected, my daughters and I would probably be much safer if he fell so in live with somebody else that he wouldn't even be interested in us anymore.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That will never happen. He will always care, in his own twisted way.

You must not depend on, or rely on HIM doing something (anything) to make you and the girls safe .... you need to make that happen yourself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unless he made the same sort of changes that would make reconciliation possible I can't even picture a friendship with him working out.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which brings us back to the divorce settlement and the visitation arrangements. Protect them on that front legally, as best you can.

Take care

Pep

Thanx L.I.T.

Pepperband:

We have shared custody in that he can have a say in decisions about the kids' healthcare, education, religious upbringing. But he has never really shown much interest in those decisons and (so far) has given me no interference.

He doesn't get any visitaton like the kids having to go see him for summer vacation, holidays, weekends. The visitation is totally at our daughters' disgression so they don't have to have any contact with him if they choose not to! Unless of course the OW is back in the picture and then SHE apparently thinks the visitation is under HER control LOL

I have not started dating because the divorce is not final but when I do I will give him NO info whatsoever. I figure I'm much safer if he just assumes his nasty 'you're too old to' comments so detroyed my self-esteem that I will just live a nun-like existance LOL

I doubt he will stay alone for long. But I don't think he will ever have another long-term relationship. I alternate between worrying that he will die lonely or that he will continue to expect me to be his soft place to land between OW.

I will keep any dating hush-hush. I hope to remarry someday but it will probably be a big surprise to him because he will have assumed
'nobody wants' me.

Oh and ours was his 2nd marriage.

The first one only lasted one year, six months of which they were separated, no kids, divorced several years before we met. BUT he contacted her several times during our marriage.

He's made it clear he expects to keep me in his life regardless of his involvement with OW. This is one of the reasons OW was so controlling and suspicious with him. When I've tried telling him that full marital reconciliation is the only way I want to have anything to do with him, do not want to try being 'just friends', he's accused me of trying to force him to stay with him. He fails to recognize that I have a choice and do not have to have anything more to do with him.

Most of the nasty "no man would want you" comments were from when I was trying to tell him that after the divorce I couldn't continue to see him (behind OW's back?!?) because any man I might become involved with in the future would not want that. I've told him that if I remarried that any communication with my ex (WH) would have to be strictly about kids, support, etc., nothing personal, and not kept secret from my new husband. So he would respond by saying I was too old to have a future with any other man. He simply can't accept that if he has an OW and I have a new man that there could no longer be anything private and special between us.

Anyway, he didn't call today either.

No news is good news.