</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2:
None of these women are in any way dumb - I have found this situation to be true in the marriages of virtually all my co-workers and my family's co-workers. These are almost all highly educated, intelligent women, married to men who are also highly educated and intelligent, most of whom are engineers, computer programmers and the like. For the most part, the wives are not complaining about incompetence in skills like cooking, but rather in basic parenting and organizational skills. When they complain about parenting skills, it is not merely lack of nurturing skills, but not being able to get their kids off to school with their hair brushed and their lunch money, and more seriously, not paying attention to what is going on to the extent that children are put in danger. One has to wonder how men like this could ever run a business - or if it is really the administrative assistants (often women) who keep everything from falling apart. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is sooooooooooo RUDE for these women to be complaining about their husbands behind their husband's back.

RUDE women. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Mud-slinging their own loving husbands... YUCK!

Pep

David,

I think it is great that you could homeschool your kids - my H agreed that he would not be able to, not because he couldn't teach the subject matter, but because he couldn't handle the organizational aspects of it. I don't think I have ever run across any other father who homeschooled personally.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2:
<strong> David,

I think it is great that you could homeschool your kids - my H agreed that he would not be able to, not because he couldn't teach the subject matter, but because he couldn't handle the organizational aspects of it. I don't think I have ever run across any other father who homeschooled personally. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heh -other than that, I'm completely incompetant. Just ask WW.....

LOL

David

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2:
<strong>When they complain about parenting skills, it is not merely lack of nurturing skills, but not being able to get their kids off to school with their hair brushed and their lunch money, and more seriously, not paying attention to what is going on to the extent that children are put in danger. One has to wonder how men like this could ever run a business - or if it is really the administrative assistants (often women) who keep everything from falling apart. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ya Know, Nellie - If I didn't know you were kidding, I'd feel sorry for you for acting so righteous and arrogant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I recommend you be more subtle with your jokes. Yea, it's a slow Sunday, but I've found that if folks here can't immediately guess you're doing satire, you'll get more laughs.

WAT

One wonders why these women don't find something better to do than sit around and ***** and whine about their husbands all the time. I can much easier endure a so-called "incompentent" man than a pack of bitter harpies who do nothing but sit around and ***** about about men. What an unproductive, negative waste of life.

LMFAO Melody...I about peed my pants on that one, and I emphatically agree.

Why, may I ask, is this being posted in the infidelity forum? Oh wait.....are men unfaithful because their morons? I get it.

-Caren

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nellie2:
[qb]When they complain about parenting skills, it is not merely lack of nurturing skills, but not being able to get their kids off to school with their hair brushed and their lunch money, and more seriously, not paying attention to what is going on to the extent that children are put in danger. One has to wonder how men like this could ever run a business - or if it is really the administrative assistants (often women) who keep everything from falling apart. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Geez - I thought she was serious! I am STILL trying to learn how to do my DD's hair. Whenever I brush it, she looks like she's been thru a blender. She then grabs the brush in frustration, fixes it, puts in a couple of hair clips and is off to school.......

Nellie,

I think a big part,that was touched on earlier,is that for many parents,basic childcare is NOT taught.In much of society we are allowed to "wing it" when it comes to raising our children.Having children is our RIGHT but there are no laws that suggest that we should all first know HOW to take care of children all the way through until they are adults.We have to learn and take standardized tests for so many other areas(i.e driving a car) but not childrearing.Hmmm.

Is it any wonder that many parents sink when it comes to rasing their children? That they feel overwhelmed,lost,haven't a clue? How many people do you know that actually take the time to research this before the birth? I saw the lack of understanding when I worked briefly in a Nursery and Pediatrics ward and also just being with other's parents who really appeared to be upset that they didn't know how to tend their children but also became angrry at the lack of knowledge instead of educating themselves.

Point is,no matter what the subject matter,childrearing included,if you are not sufficiently taught how to deal with that particular area,you will most likely fail,at least on some level.Add in what other's have said about choices and you can easily have a dysfunctional family dynamic going on.

I would like to think that both the husbands and mother's would take raising their children seriously,educate themselves and discuss what each needs from the other when it comes to the kids.It's the responsibility of both parents to be helping out no matter what the issue.

On a side note,my WH is a prime example of being OVERLY taken care of by his mother.She is a wonderful woman but did not,IMO,allow my WH to grow independent of her enough that translated into our marriage.He came to expect me to do all the household duties and child care because his mother did all that by herself with little help from my FIL.It's a role that I played into only because I chose to.I did not regret this choice.I felt blessed to be a home maker and be there for my children.I truly felt it was the most important thing I could be doing with my life.I still feel that way.

But my WH did not have nor was taught the skills of being a fully intergrated father and husband.He could have made the choice to change that but he decided to embrace it instead.Lacking skills in any area is not gender specific,it's all about choice when you are an adult.

O

Dang - O - I could have been raised by the same mom as your H - it took me 42 years to cut those apron strings. By that time, damage had already been done to the M.....

David

Nellie2,

Well. I now have a better picture of the situation. Now that I know you are talking about engineers and programmers.

It is not that they can't, it is that they don't consider what YOU think as important as important to them.

I am an engineer. Let me elucidate.

Clothes to me are "mission accomplished" if they (a) keep me warm and (b) cover my genitalia. Beyond that, they do not have to match, be in style, and can be stained and threadbare. I've got more important things to do with my life than worry about my clothes.

Hair to me is something I have to deal with. I hate wasting time brushing, styling, whatever. If it gets long enough that I have to brush it, I am quickly buzzing it off after that point. Why a buzz cut? Frankly, it's efficient. Don't have to worry about it.

I would bet money that given the choice to spend the extra 5 minutes in the morning primping the kids for the laffable exercise of the popularity contest that has infested the school system, most of these "lack of common sense" dads would spend it reviewing the math drills from the night before.

IMVHO, which is greater? Equipping the kid with the skills to look good or with the skills to serve others?

Sounds to me like a bunch of "desperate housewives" who are troubled because their men don't quite regard the SAME things as important as THEY do. Probably a clique of women who run the household in a sort of sexual-benevolent-monarchy.

Which reminds me of a story....

NCWalker's Theory on Why Young Marriages Fail

Young marriages fail because men are pigs. They lack the lucidity to discern the subtle symbolism and nuances of their more complex, and fairer wives. This chronic problem starts on the wedding day itself. To the man, it is a ceremony you have to go through. Another rite of passage, as it were. To the woman, it is the opening gambit full of meaning that sets the tone for the marriage.

Men miss this. So, please, allow me to educate the younger men out here with an insight to the thought processes of the woman on the wedding day. Ladies, feel free to voice your support in my theory.

Guys, here are the BIG SYMBOLS you typically miss on the wedding day that will save you lots of grief in the marriage if you would just PAY ATTENTION.

Symbol 1: The Aisle The walk down the aisle communicates much about how a woman views the marriage. Are the family guests separated one side to the other, or intermixed? Do the bridesmaids and groomsmen walk together, or separately? What are the relationship of the ringbearer and flower girl to the bride, if they are present at all? What kind of flowers are there, and how are they arranged? Who is giving the bride away? ALL these are symbolic to the wife, not just part of the ceremony. So guys, pay attention to what your ladies are trying to say.

Symbol 2: The Altar Even more important than the aisle, is the arrangement of the altar. Again - bridesmaids and groomsmen mixed, or separate? Does her dad (if he gives her away) stay there or sit down? Where do they stand relative to the rest of the attendants? Same place? A little ahead? All of these are symbolic to her regarding how she actually feels about the marriage and its importance to family, church, etc. We always miss this, guys. So pay attention. She is trying to talk to you. LISTEN.

Symbol 3: The Hymn Women are emotionally oriented. Music is the universal language of emotion. Guys, DO NOT LET THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE HYMN BE LOST ON YOU. If you don't get it, ask your mom. What Hymn did your wife pick? Contemporary music, or religous classic? Get a copy of the words and read them. She will be telling you a lot about what she feels the marriage will be - it's tone, undercurrents, and basic theme. All of this wrapped up in the selection of the hymn. Yes guys, they are that complex. Get used to it.

Review
So in review, remember the three important words that your lady is thinking on the wedding day.

Say them with me guys.
Stop and say them OUT LOUD.
This is what your ladies are thinking on the wedding day.

AISLE - ALTAR - HYMN

Did you say them out loud? If you didn't, go back and do it again.

Always your servant,

NCWalker

David,

My MIL STILL makes my WH seal-a-meal dinners when he is in town as if he just cannot cook for himself and needs her help.He is pratically 40 FOR HEAVENS SAKE! ugh.

She was not only his caretaker but his BRAIN.She had to remember things for the entire family all this time and she still makes an effort to do this for everyone including ME,who is so dang efficient in every area of her life it's bothersome to try to be overshadowed.

O

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Oh LORD O!

I told my mom to butt out and give presents on Christmas and B-days, and I'd call her whenever I thought she needed an update (btw - she knows nothing about this current situation - she's have all my brothers over here throwing Wife's stuff into the street.)

I couldn't take anymore 'Well, your wife needs to XXX and YYY and ZZZ).

Cut that off. After way too many years. Now I rely on my MIL -----LMAO - she makes better food anyway

David

ncw,

I don't know but myself and many of my women friends are SO detail oriented,it's scary.We are always looking at the big picture and everything about it is important.Our husbands might say," Who cares if blankety blank". Then the wives say," But it is important if blankety blank".

Like you mentioned,a man might just be happy to have clothes on for the day but some/many women need to decide what color,what fabric,style,are there any events going on that day,etc,etc.LOL We are different no doubt but I would like to think,foolishly maybe,that these differences are what can bring us closer together and we can admire and utilize these traits instead of them being negative "characteristics" per se.And the rule of thumb is that if your spouse thinks it's important to them then you should at least consider it/discuss it.

O

That is EXACTLY how I feel.

IF you love your spouse and it is important to THEM, then you should MAKE it important to you.

That is a servant's heart. Heck. We do it with our kids almost instinctively.

I FRIGGIN HATE CANDYLAND

Oops. There is my 5 yr old DS. Guess what we are going to play?

We do it for our kids, why not the spouse? THAT is a big part of the SERVANT'S HEART.

My ISSUE is the fact that these husbands have been described as incompetent, or having a lack of common sense, just because something appears less important to them than their wives think it ought to be.

MAYBE they need a lesson in how to be a husband. But they are not incompetent. How are these wives MAKING this point to their husbands? Sounds to me like they are being belittled.

If your kids have trouble picking up their room, do you belittle them? Does that work? Has any parent had success in changing the behavior of a child with that? If you say yes, I would BET MONEY that the change is only in front of your face. I would also bet money that little bugger is filling up with resentment for YOU.

Why do that to your spouse? Yet we always seem to choose to do that. Like we are too tired to deal with our spouses appropriately, so we just lash out. Sad. Sad. Sad. And destructive.

NCW

I agree with you and I hesitated posting to this thread.It sounded very generalized and I tend to avoid those that are.

To me what is more telling are those spouses that refuse to make the choice to be a part of the marriage and family in healthy ways that encourages and supports one another.Yeah you might have to do a few things that aren't so pleasurable from time to time but that is where compromise and negotiation comes in.We have talked about this before many times here.

An odd example for me was an online game my WH showed me and he loved to play it.He had always encouraged me to do so since it would be fun for him for he and I to play together on a team.I hated the game at first.It was related to soldiers blowing up things and killing enemies,you know,stuff like that.For a long time I resisted,I found the game offensive in certain ways and a typical "male" oriented game.

Anyway,one day I decided that if it was important to him,then I would see what it was like.I at least should show him I cared enough to make an informed decision and then discuss it later on.Well,not only did I come to love the game but I am REALLY good at it.Most of the players cannot believe I am a woman and love that I am there.Its a big change and they try to protect me sometimes(until I nuke them with a grenade launcher! LOL).It's fun for me and we did have fun playing together for a time.

Anyway,if you keep an open mind and respect each other's differences as H and W AND man and woman,that can go a long way toward a healthy and fulfilling marriage.

O

O,

I was half expecting a comment on my symbolism at the wedding story. Did you catch it? Maybe it works better when I say it.

NCW

I'll have to reread it tomorrow.I am too angry right now at my WH.I think I need to cool off and go to bed(see my new topic). ugh

O

I think we may be talking about two different issues here. I agree that boys are often not taught the skills they need for child care or household tasks, and girls are not taught home repair. Perhaps also many people of both genders are not interested in doing tasks which they have not traditionally done. What I was talking about was more organizational and survival skills. Some fathers may not care if their kids' hair is brushed perfectly or their clothes match, but is it really not important to them if they eat lunch? I really doubt if many fathers would claim that it is not important to them if their child got lost while they were caring for him. I personally think it may have more to do with the fact that females are better at multi-tasking, and are more likely to have "eyes in the back of their heads" where their children are concerned.

The women I have listened to are hardly "housewives" with time on their hands. Aside from the fact that most SAHM's are very busy, these women are, as I mentioned, co-workers holding professional positions. Perhaps very competent women tend to marry incompetent men, and if I talked to a bunch of "dumb broads" as MelodyLane put it, their husbands would be competent.

I do not think I even once complained about my H to my co-workers or friends when I was married. There were definitely times when he seemed clueless when it came to safety issues and the kids. He was intelligent, highly skilled, and a great cook - but at least a couple of our daughters were better at child care by the time they were 12 than he was as an adult.

I would hate to think that competent women somehow attract incompetent men, and that's what my 5 daughters have to look forward to. I would also hate to think that there just aren't very many competent men, but that seems to be the case from what I have seen and heard. I wonder how many mothers are absolutely sure that there husband can do as good a job of keeping their children safe, much less keeping their lives organized and getting them where they have to go with what they need to take with them, as they do. For that matter, how many men believe they can?

My wife doesn't know how to set an alarm clock (and a lot of other things).

Does that make her incompetent?

No. Different people have different areas of competence. Marriage requires teamwork.

I hesitate to use biblical examples in a forum where they might be less useful for some members, but do you recall the apostle Paul's description of the body of Christ. Can the hand say to the foot, I don't need you? No, each part has it's own function.

-AD

Nellie2

Are you talking about my WW'S EA friend? It sure sounds like it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> WW always tells me they could never because of some of that type of thing. No not all men are that way. But from my experiance allot of people are that way both men and women. I always say they are using oxygen someone else could better utalize.

RHM

This is one of the sillier threads I have ever seen on this forum and I hesistated to take this nonsense seriously, but I guess I should go ahead and point out what everyone can plainly see. ie: the sweeping generalization and ad hominem attack on men.

The sweeping generization that all men are "incompetent" because Nellie knows of a few men who are not good with children is preposterous. First off, a human being is not "incompetent" as a human being only because he has failings in certain areas. That is the definition of EVERY HUMAN BEING. Rarely do humans excel in all areas. Using her logic, we could say that all women are "incompetent" because they are not good at math and science.

Secondly, her silly pronouncement is based on anecdotal information, which any researcher will tell you is not legitimate. It's just not logical to say that all men are bad with children because she knows of a few cases. Her anecdote is easily refuted with the first contradicting anecdote that comes along. [and was refuted on this thread]

Nor would it even qualify as a good generalization because the breadth of her "conclusion" cannot possibly be supported by evidence. Hers is a sweeping generalization.

Sweeping generalizations are not valid.

What this really amounts to is an ad hom attack on men; an ugly exhibit of sexual bigotry that was so popular in the 60s-70s. Well, thankfully the 60s are over.

ad hom·i·nem ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hm-nm, -nm)
adj.
Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>