Are most men really as incompetent as I've been told?

I have noticed more and more in recent years how virtually every married woman I know has a husband who seems to be completely incompetent, especially when it comes to child care - things like leaving their child behind in a store and not noticing for an hour. I know a couple of women who don't want their husbands, who were seriously ill, to go to the doctors by themselves because they never thought to ask important questions. This incompetence seems to be widespread among all the women I know, as well as among the women they know. These men are not stupid - many are very successful at their careers and extremely bright, but they have no common sense. I don't know how many times I have heard, "It's like having 4 kids instead of 3," or something similar. Thinking back, my H sometimes didn't have a lot of common sense when it came to child care either, though if he had ever done what some of these husbands had, I would have been too embarassed to share it. A recent post asked why men marry, and after hearing all these complaints, why on earth do women marry if nearly every woman ends up feeling this way? I am beginning to doubt that there are more than a handful of sensible men out there.

I would say many men do not develop the skills but most could if given the chance. A lot of mothers are very controlling of this aspect of co-parenting and don't let the fathers try to get their rhythm of doing it without critique or stepping in.

I have known several men who are as competent as the women.

There is a cultural/social element here along with gender.

Wow that's a loaded question, hope you have a helmet on....because some unhappy responses will most likely ensue.

I don't think men are incompetent. My WH is a very good father, very cautious about when my DD10 played outside, where she was at all times in the store, that she should have vitamins, make sure she had a jacket on, etc.

As for the going to the doctor thing, I think the wife probably just wants to make sure that the husband asks all the questions THEY would ask. The husband probably assumes the doctor knows what they're doing, and doesn't question it since they never went to medical school, also, men are not usually "complainers" they don't want to seem needy to the doctor, so they just don't say anything.

A lot of men aren't taught maternal things....so why would they be expected to know them? Do you know very many boy children that are encouraged to play with a doll?? (More are now, but boys NEVER used to be) No....they get trucks, and tools to play with. We gender bias them, then wonder why they are the way they are.

The same thing could be said for women....."Are women really as incomptent as they seem?".....They don't seem to know jack about how to fix a carburator, heck they don't seem to notice the oil light lit up on the dash board, they can't even install a car stereo, or sharpen the blade on the lawn mower, or get up on a ladder and clean the gutters, I don't think they know there are gutters. (See what I mean? And I'm a chick)

-Caren

[ February 20, 2005, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: CarenMc ]

I have known some men who were somewhat lacking in their parenting skills. I've also known several women who were, as well. I know that I am not a perfect parent. I have improved over the years and maybe some of these men will improve also. While no one is perfect, most strive to grow. Perhaps these men are just in a different place in their journey to self-discovery.

Caren,

Good question. In my group of friends, the fathers are very competent with their children. I acutally take our kids to the dentist, doctor, school activities, stay home when they are sick more than my wife (WW). It has always been that way. I do believe though that women tend to have a deeper understanding of childcare - tend to be more nuturing by their very nature. Even so, my kids get hugs and lots of "I love you" from me.

The bottom line is kids get something special from a mom and dad. Each has different things to offer.

As far as incompetent men, I know a lot. I know fathers that do very little with their kids and spouses. I see wives doing almost everything, mowing lawns, painting their houses, shoveling snow, all while the "old man" sits in front of the tube. I am not one of those men but by WW left me anyway. Why did she leave me? Because I failed to meet her EN's. Now I have to prove to her that I can do that also.

Sorry,

My response was to Nellie2.

Keith

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The same thing could be said for women....."Are women really as incomptent as they seem?".....They don't seem to know jack about how to fix a carburator, heck they don't seem to notice the oil light lit up on the dash board, they can't even install a car stereo, or sharpen the blade on the lawn mower, or get up on a ladder and clean the gutters, I don't think they know there are gutters. (See what I mean? And I'm a chick)<hr /></blockquote>...or program a VCR, or assemble anything that comes with screws and requires instructions, or change a flat tire...
Wow! Excellent point, Caren. I know that made ME feel incompetent! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

P.S. What are gutters?

Absolutely!

Most men are complete idiots - in addition to being incompetant.

And, we're all a-holes!!!

In fact, all the women are right to label us individualy as "ignoranus" - the combination of being BOTH stupid AND a-holes!!

WAT
-------------------
100% man. How did I get this far?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2:
I have noticed more and more in recent years how virtually every married woman I know has a husband who seems to be completely incompetent <hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Oh Nelly2 ....

Perhaps you need to choose a wiser group of women to be friends with???

Pep

Oh Wat...
you dumb-a@@

you crack me up...
and I just adore you.....

now out out you demons of stupidity.. !!!!

there..
Consider yourself HEALED!!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

arkie

[ February 20, 2005, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]

I think women miss the point here. First off, everyone on here knows my story and knows what kind of Dad I am. And I was a good Dad before, but was able to skate around the edges because my wife was a SAHM.

And THAT is the point. We learn early on, I believe from our mothers, to let women take care of us. The old adage "If I screw up what she asked me to do, she will never ask me again" holds true, even if subsconsciously.

It is not that we are insensitive Neandarthals (although WAT may be onto something on this Ignoranus deal!!). It is the way we are raised.

One thing I do with my two sons is now that they are getting old enough (especially the 12 year old), I dont let Mom do anything for them. Nothing. When I mean do anything for them, I mean she doesnt clean up after them, she doesnt keep track (overtly) of what they have due or need to be doing. I see too many boys walking around saying "Sorry I forgot to do that and Mom didnt remind me." My two boys NEVER get to give that excuse.

At the same time, I do require them to help their Mom. Now that we have been working on this for awhile, they jump when they hear Mom coming in the garage. Before...she would pull in, maybe with groceries...and here my boys would sit, watching their Mom lug in the groceries or her stuff from work. Not anymore!! Now they hear the garage door opener, and they pop up and head straight out to her...saying "Hi" and asking if she needs any help. It is all about conditioning!

You see, my daughter isnt this way. She doesnt require (never has) her Mom keep track of her stuff or her deadlines. My 10yo daughter does a lot of stuff without being asked. She is very independent. About the only thing I think I get in trouble for with her is I do spoil her...and the boys glare at me when I do. Tuff!! She's a girl.

I make the boys hold the door for their Mom and sister...and when we eat or do anything else, Mom and sister go first.

Now you feminists will start screaming at my...but TUFF to you too. I will be darned if I dont raise gentlemen. And a woman is a woman, even if it is their sister.

So, I diverged here. I think yo gals have to realize that just like many of the things women pass on to other women on dealing with their husband...we men also get it passed onto us that we can be "selectively incompetent" and the stuff we really dont like to do, will just go away.

In His arms.

uh, huh? - wha happened? where am I?

suddenly everything is clearer!

I can SEE!!! Now I understand!

How could I have been so WRONG???

I'm healed??

YAY!!!!!

Right in the middle of fixing this toilet!!

Oooops - what's THIS for? Where does THIS go? How do I get this all back together?? OMG!! I have GOT to pee!!! Now what??????

lots of healing have occurred WAT that definitely involved toilets...
it's a very very common thing....

consider yourself lucky

Hear - Hear - Mortarman.

I, too, am raising 3 absolute gentlemen. I will not settle for anything less.

A feminist is an unhappy person. Someone who does not admit that men and women ARE different, and there is nothing wrong with that. Even secularly speaking, a mammal is a complex organism and it is the dichotomous differences between the male and female that is the biological "engine" that makes the whole thing go. A femisist is unhappy about what they were handed when their life began. Probably doesn't seem fair to them. TOUGH. I just checked my birth certificate, and sure enough, there was no "fairness clause" on it.

We have hammered into us in the name of progressiveness, open-mindedness, freedom of speech, and numerous other guises a whole boatload of cr@pola about how men and women are supposed to act. It really boils down to a simple formula and that is ...

Do that which you are gifted at and do it with a servant's heart.

If we all did that, what a world we would live in.

So kudos to MM and me and any other guy who are teaching their kids to walk the path of honor. And a narrow one it is.

As for the women who has all the friends who seem to have incompetent husbands, I would say two things.

1) Stop enabling them, you are their wives, not their mothers.
2) Stop man-bashing them. Death and life are in the power of the tongue. Ever stop and think that they just might be rising to what you speak over them?

A general thought - Why is it that COMPLAINING never gets one an advantage in any situation WITHOUT fostering feelings of ill-will? Bad service at a restaraunt - COMPLAINING (and I mean whining, *****ing, etc, not courteously informing a manager) MAY get you a free meal, but don't be surprised if someone spits in your dessert.

When does complaining get us anywhere in the world?

Then answer me this, why do we all think it will in our marriages?

NCWalker

Nelly,

I see this a little differently. Granted, my XH wasn't the most competent father. But it wasn't because he couldn't be. It was he CHOSE not to be. It wasn't something he wanted to do. Kids just were not his thing. This is not true of all men.

Okay, so that wasn't a good thing. But first, I think women are naturally the "nurturers" because it's how God made us. And men are the protectors, generally.

And while my XH wasn't the best at child-rearing, he was very, very good at "man" things. He could fix anything. He could pick up a broken piece of junk snowblower or lawnmower off the curb and make it run again (and I still have both of them!)

He cleaned the gutters. He installed the new lights I purchased. He took care of the cars. He fixed the toilets. He gutted and remodeled a kitchen once. I just watched and handed him tools most of the time.

Does it mean I can't learn how to do those things? No, I just chose not to, just like he chose not to do the mothering thing.

(NOTE: I posted over on D/D just how proud I am of myself because I fixed my own washer yesterday! And it was a fairly involved repair. I decided I was going to learn to become competent. And I'm now on my 5th load of laundry since the fix!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

But does this now mean I don't need an "incompetent-at-parenting man"? Absolutely not! I still hope someday to have the opportunity for a relationship. Do I have to have the best child-rearer out there? It'd be nice, but it's not a requirement (especially since my youngest is almost grown). I'd rather find a man who can take care of the "man" things.

And frankly, I'd rather just have a man who was a Christian and who I could trust to love me and be faithful to me.

LL

And just who chose those men to be their husbands? I guess if your friends aren't bright enough to choose well, then the fault is likely their own. Motto of the day: don't hang with dumb broads, Nellie!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by worthatry:
 Absolutely!

Most men are complete idiots - in addition to being incompetant.

And, we're all a-holes!!!

In fact, all the women are right to label us individualy as "ignoranus" - the combination of being BOTH stupid AND a-holes!!

WAT
-------------------
100% man. How did I get this far? <hr /></blockquote>You caveman, you!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

None of these women are in any way dumb - I have found this situation to be true in the marriages of virtually all my co-workers and my family's co-workers. These are almost all highly educated, intelligent women, married to men who are also highly educated and intelligent, most of whom are engineers, computer programmers and the like. For the most part, the wives are not complaining about incompetence in skills like cooking, but rather in basic parenting and organizational skills. When they complain about parenting skills, it is not merely lack of nurturing skills, but not being able to get their kids off to school with their hair brushed and their lunch money, and more seriously, not paying attention to what is going on to the extent that children are put in danger. One has to wonder how men like this could ever run a business - or if it is really the administrative assistants (often women) who keep everything from falling apart.

[ February 20, 2005, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Nellie2 ]

One wonders why these women don't find something better to do than sit around and ***** and whine about their husbands all the time. I can much easier endure a so-called "incompentent" man than a pack of bitter harpies who do nothing but sit around and ***** about about men. What an unproductive, negative waste of life.

Men are no different than women, they are good at some things and bad at others.

I am not offended by the question - there are things I'm incompetent at - but learning. But I did homeschool two of my sons successfully into college, I am raising three rigtht now by myself - and If I find myself at a loss, I ask right here on MB.

Seems to me that I could find many things that women are incompetent at as well - but I really don't care. It seems in a good relationship, they should balance each other out - and maybe train one another as well....

David

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2:
None of these women are in any way dumb - I have found this situation to be true in the marriages of virtually all my co-workers and my family's co-workers. These are almost all highly educated, intelligent women, married to men who are also highly educated and intelligent, most of whom are engineers, computer programmers and the like. For the most part, the wives are not complaining about incompetence in skills like cooking, but rather in basic parenting and organizational skills. When they complain about parenting skills, it is not merely lack of nurturing skills, but not being able to get their kids off to school with their hair brushed and their lunch money, and more seriously, not paying attention to what is going on to the extent that children are put in danger. One has to wonder how men like this could ever run a business - or if it is really the administrative assistants (often women) who keep everything from falling apart. <hr /></blockquote>It is sooooooooooo RUDE for these women to be complaining about their husbands behind their husband's back.

RUDE women. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> Mud-slinging their own loving husbands... YUCK!

Pep

David,

I think it is great that you could homeschool your kids - my H agreed that he would not be able to, not because he couldn't teach the subject matter, but because he couldn't handle the organizational aspects of it. I don't think I have ever run across any other father who homeschooled personally.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2:
 David,

I think it is great that you could homeschool your kids - my H agreed that he would not be able to, not because he couldn't teach the subject matter, but because he couldn't handle the organizational aspects of it. I don't think I have ever run across any other father who homeschooled personally. <hr /></blockquote>Heh -other than that, I'm completely incompetant. Just ask WW.....

LOL

David

[ February 20, 2005, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2:
When they complain about parenting skills, it is not merely lack of nurturing skills, but not being able to get their kids off to school with their hair brushed and their lunch money, and more seriously, not paying attention to what is going on to the extent that children are put in danger. One has to wonder how men like this could ever run a business - or if it is really the administrative assistants (often women) who keep everything from falling apart. <hr /></blockquote>Ya Know, Nellie - If I didn't know you were kidding, I'd feel sorry for you for acting so righteous and arrogant. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I recommend you be more subtle with your jokes. Yea, it's a slow Sunday, but I've found that if folks here can't immediately guess you're doing satire, you'll get more laughs.

WAT

One wonders why these women don't find something better to do than sit around and ***** and whine about their husbands all the time. I can much easier endure a so-called "incompentent" man than a pack of bitter harpies who do nothing but sit around and ***** about about men. What an unproductive, negative waste of life.

LMFAO Melody...I about peed my pants on that one, and I emphatically agree.

Why, may I ask, is this being posted in the infidelity forum? Oh wait.....are men unfaithful because their morons? I get it.

-Caren

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by worthatry:
 [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nellie2:
[qb]When they complain about parenting skills, it is not merely lack of nurturing skills, but not being able to get their kids off to school with their hair brushed and their lunch money, and more seriously, not paying attention to what is going on to the extent that children are put in danger. One has to wonder how men like this could ever run a business - or if it is really the administrative assistants (often women) who keep everything from falling apart. <hr /></blockquote>Geez - I thought she was serious! I am STILL trying to learn how to do my DD's hair. Whenever I brush it, she looks like she's been thru a blender. She then grabs the brush in frustration, fixes it, puts in a couple of hair clips and is off to school.......

Nellie,

I think a big part,that was touched on earlier,is that for many parents,basic childcare is NOT taught.In much of society we are allowed to "wing it" when it comes to raising our children.Having children is our RIGHT but there are no laws that suggest that we should all first know HOW to take care of children all the way through until they are adults.We have to learn and take standardized tests for so many other areas(i.e driving a car) but not childrearing.Hmmm.

Is it any wonder that many parents sink when it comes to rasing their children? That they feel overwhelmed,lost,haven't a clue? How many people do you know that actually take the time to research this before the birth? I saw the lack of understanding when I worked briefly in a Nursery and Pediatrics ward and also just being with other's parents who really appeared to be upset that they didn't know how to tend their children but also became angrry at the lack of knowledge instead of educating themselves.

Point is,no matter what the subject matter,childrearing included,if you are not sufficiently taught how to deal with that particular area,you will most likely fail,at least on some level.Add in what other's have said about choices and you can easily have a dysfunctional family dynamic going on.

I would like to think that both the husbands and mother's would take raising their children seriously,educate themselves and discuss what each needs from the other when it comes to the kids.It's the responsibility of both parents to be helping out no matter what the issue.

On a side note,my WH is a prime example of being OVERLY taken care of by his mother.She is a wonderful woman but did not,IMO,allow my WH to grow independent of her enough that translated into our marriage.He came to expect me to do all the household duties and child care because his mother did all that by herself with little help from my FIL.It's a role that I played into only because I chose to.I did not regret this choice.I felt blessed to be a home maker and be there for my children.I truly felt it was the most important thing I could be doing with my life.I still feel that way.

But my WH did not have nor was taught the skills of being a fully intergrated father and husband.He could have made the choice to change that but he decided to embrace it instead.Lacking skills in any area is not gender specific,it's all about choice when you are an adult.

O

Dang - O - I could have been raised by the same mom as your H - it took me 42 years to cut those apron strings. By that time, damage had already been done to the M.....

David

Nellie2,

Well. I now have a better picture of the situation. Now that I know you are talking about engineers and programmers.

It is not that they can't, it is that they don't consider what YOU think as important as important to them.

I am an engineer. Let me elucidate.

Clothes to me are "mission accomplished" if they (a) keep me warm and (b) cover my genitalia. Beyond that, they do not have to match, be in style, and can be stained and threadbare. I've got more important things to do with my life than worry about my clothes.

Hair to me is something I have to deal with. I hate wasting time brushing, styling, whatever. If it gets long enough that I have to brush it, I am quickly buzzing it off after that point. Why a buzz cut? Frankly, it's efficient. Don't have to worry about it.

I would bet money that given the choice to spend the extra 5 minutes in the morning primping the kids for the laffable exercise of the popularity contest that has infested the school system, most of these "lack of common sense" dads would spend it reviewing the math drills from the night before.

IMVHO, which is greater? Equipping the kid with the skills to look good or with the skills to serve others?

Sounds to me like a bunch of "desperate housewives" who are troubled because their men don't quite regard the SAME things as important as THEY do. Probably a clique of women who run the household in a sort of sexual-benevolent-monarchy.

Which reminds me of a story....

NCWalker's Theory on Why Young Marriages Fail

Young marriages fail because men are pigs. They lack the lucidity to discern the subtle symbolism and nuances of their more complex, and fairer wives. This chronic problem starts on the wedding day itself. To the man, it is a ceremony you have to go through. Another rite of passage, as it were. To the woman, it is the opening gambit full of meaning that sets the tone for the marriage.

Men miss this. So, please, allow me to educate the younger men out here with an insight to the thought processes of the woman on the wedding day. Ladies, feel free to voice your support in my theory.

Guys, here are the BIG SYMBOLS you typically miss on the wedding day that will save you lots of grief in the marriage if you would just PAY ATTENTION.

Symbol 1: The Aisle The walk down the aisle communicates much about how a woman views the marriage. Are the family guests separated one side to the other, or intermixed? Do the bridesmaids and groomsmen walk together, or separately? What are the relationship of the ringbearer and flower girl to the bride, if they are present at all? What kind of flowers are there, and how are they arranged? Who is giving the bride away? ALL these are symbolic to the wife, not just part of the ceremony. So guys, pay attention to what your ladies are trying to say.

Symbol 2: The Altar Even more important than the aisle, is the arrangement of the altar. Again - bridesmaids and groomsmen mixed, or separate? Does her dad (if he gives her away) stay there or sit down? Where do they stand relative to the rest of the attendants? Same place? A little ahead? All of these are symbolic to her regarding how she actually feels about the marriage and its importance to family, church, etc. We always miss this, guys. So pay attention. She is trying to talk to you. LISTEN.

Symbol 3: The Hymn Women are emotionally oriented. Music is the universal language of emotion. Guys, DO NOT LET THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE HYMN BE LOST ON YOU. If you don't get it, ask your mom. What Hymn did your wife pick? Contemporary music, or religous classic? Get a copy of the words and read them. She will be telling you a lot about what she feels the marriage will be - it's tone, undercurrents, and basic theme. All of this wrapped up in the selection of the hymn. Yes guys, they are that complex. Get used to it.

Review
So in review, remember the three important words that your lady is thinking on the wedding day.

Say them with me guys.
Stop and say them OUT LOUD.
This is what your ladies are thinking on the wedding day.

AISLE - ALTAR - HYMN

Did you say them out loud? If you didn't, go back and do it again.

Always your servant,

NCWalker

David,

My MIL STILL makes my WH seal-a-meal dinners when he is in town as if he just cannot cook for himself and needs her help.He is pratically 40 FOR HEAVENS SAKE! ugh.

She was not only his caretaker but his BRAIN.She had to remember things for the entire family all this time and she still makes an effort to do this for everyone including ME,who is so dang efficient in every area of her life it's bothersome to try to be overshadowed.

O

[ February 20, 2005, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]

Oh LORD O!

I told my mom to butt out and give presents on Christmas and B-days, and I'd call her whenever I thought she needed an update (btw - she knows nothing about this current situation - she's have all my brothers over here throwing Wife's stuff into the street.)

I couldn't take anymore 'Well, your wife needs to XXX and YYY and ZZZ).

Cut that off. After way too many years. Now I rely on my MIL -----LMAO - she makes better food anyway

David

ncw,

I don't know but myself and many of my women friends are SO detail oriented,it's scary.We are always looking at the big picture and everything about it is important.Our husbands might say," Who cares if blankety blank". Then the wives say," But it is important if blankety blank".

Like you mentioned,a man might just be happy to have clothes on for the day but some/many women need to decide what color,what fabric,style,are there any events going on that day,etc,etc.LOL We are different no doubt but I would like to think,foolishly maybe,that these differences are what can bring us closer together and we can admire and utilize these traits instead of them being negative "characteristics" per se.And the rule of thumb is that if your spouse thinks it's important to them then you should at least consider it/discuss it.

O

That is EXACTLY how I feel.

IF you love your spouse and it is important to THEM, then you should MAKE it important to you.

That is a servant's heart. Heck. We do it with our kids almost instinctively.

I FRIGGIN HATE CANDYLAND

Oops. There is my 5 yr old DS. Guess what we are going to play?

We do it for our kids, why not the spouse? THAT is a big part of the SERVANT'S HEART.

My ISSUE is the fact that these husbands have been described as incompetent, or having a lack of common sense, just because something appears less important to them than their wives think it ought to be.

MAYBE they need a lesson in how to be a husband. But they are not incompetent. How are these wives MAKING this point to their husbands? Sounds to me like they are being belittled.

If your kids have trouble picking up their room, do you belittle them? Does that work? Has any parent had success in changing the behavior of a child with that? If you say yes, I would BET MONEY that the change is only in front of your face. I would also bet money that little bugger is filling up with resentment for YOU.

Why do that to your spouse? Yet we always seem to choose to do that. Like we are too tired to deal with our spouses appropriately, so we just lash out. Sad. Sad. Sad. And destructive.

NCW

I agree with you and I hesitated posting to this thread.It sounded very generalized and I tend to avoid those that are.

To me what is more telling are those spouses that refuse to make the choice to be a part of the marriage and family in healthy ways that encourages and supports one another.Yeah you might have to do a few things that aren't so pleasurable from time to time but that is where compromise and negotiation comes in.We have talked about this before many times here.

An odd example for me was an online game my WH showed me and he loved to play it.He had always encouraged me to do so since it would be fun for him for he and I to play together on a team.I hated the game at first.It was related to soldiers blowing up things and killing enemies,you know,stuff like that.For a long time I resisted,I found the game offensive in certain ways and a typical "male" oriented game.

Anyway,one day I decided that if it was important to him,then I would see what it was like.I at least should show him I cared enough to make an informed decision and then discuss it later on.Well,not only did I come to love the game but I am REALLY good at it.Most of the players cannot believe I am a woman and love that I am there.Its a big change and they try to protect me sometimes(until I nuke them with a grenade launcher! LOL).It's fun for me and we did have fun playing together for a time.

Anyway,if you keep an open mind and respect each other's differences as H and W AND man and woman,that can go a long way toward a healthy and fulfilling marriage.

O

O,

I was half expecting a comment on my symbolism at the wedding story. Did you catch it? Maybe it works better when I say it.

NCW

I'll have to reread it tomorrow.I am too angry right now at my WH.I think I need to cool off and go to bed(see my new topic). ugh

O

I think we may be talking about two different issues here. I agree that boys are often not taught the skills they need for child care or household tasks, and girls are not taught home repair. Perhaps also many people of both genders are not interested in doing tasks which they have not traditionally done. What I was talking about was more organizational and survival skills. Some fathers may not care if their kids' hair is brushed perfectly or their clothes match, but is it really not important to them if they eat lunch? I really doubt if many fathers would claim that it is not important to them if their child got lost while they were caring for him. I personally think it may have more to do with the fact that females are better at multi-tasking, and are more likely to have "eyes in the back of their heads" where their children are concerned.

The women I have listened to are hardly "housewives" with time on their hands. Aside from the fact that most SAHM's are very busy, these women are, as I mentioned, co-workers holding professional positions. Perhaps very competent women tend to marry incompetent men, and if I talked to a bunch of "dumb broads" as MelodyLane put it, their husbands would be competent.

I do not think I even once complained about my H to my co-workers or friends when I was married. There were definitely times when he seemed clueless when it came to safety issues and the kids. He was intelligent, highly skilled, and a great cook - but at least a couple of our daughters were better at child care by the time they were 12 than he was as an adult.

I would hate to think that competent women somehow attract incompetent men, and that's what my 5 daughters have to look forward to. I would also hate to think that there just aren't very many competent men, but that seems to be the case from what I have seen and heard. I wonder how many mothers are absolutely sure that there husband can do as good a job of keeping their children safe, much less keeping their lives organized and getting them where they have to go with what they need to take with them, as they do. For that matter, how many men believe they can?

My wife doesn't know how to set an alarm clock (and a lot of other things).

Does that make her incompetent?

No. Different people have different areas of competence. Marriage requires teamwork.

I hesitate to use biblical examples in a forum where they might be less useful for some members, but do you recall the apostle Paul's description of the body of Christ. Can the hand say to the foot, I don't need you? No, each part has it's own function.

-AD

Nellie2

Are you talking about my WW'S EA friend? It sure sounds like it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> WW always tells me they could never because of some of that type of thing. No not all men are that way. But from my experiance allot of people are that way both men and women. I always say they are using oxygen someone else could better utalize.

RHM

This is one of the sillier threads I have ever seen on this forum and I hesistated to take this nonsense seriously, but I guess I should go ahead and point out what everyone can plainly see. ie: the sweeping generalization and ad hominem attack on men.

The sweeping generization that all men are "incompetent" because Nellie knows of a few men who are not good with children is preposterous. First off, a human being is not "incompetent" as a human being only because he has failings in certain areas. That is the definition of EVERY HUMAN BEING. Rarely do humans excel in all areas. Using her logic, we could say that all women are "incompetent" because they are not good at math and science.

Secondly, her silly pronouncement is based on anecdotal information, which any researcher will tell you is not legitimate. It's just not logical to say that all men are bad with children because she knows of a few cases. Her anecdote is easily refuted with the first contradicting anecdote that comes along. [and was refuted on this thread]

Nor would it even qualify as a good generalization because the breadth of her "conclusion" cannot possibly be supported by evidence. Hers is a sweeping generalization.

Sweeping generalizations are not valid.

What this really amounts to is an ad hom attack on men; an ugly exhibit of sexual bigotry that was so popular in the 60s-70s. Well, thankfully the 60s are over.

ad homÂ·iÂ·nem ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hm-nm, -nm)
adj.
Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason

[ February 21, 2005, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

oops!

[ February 21, 2005, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

I am merely asking for anecdotal evidence to the contrary, which I don't think I have seen much of that yet. I don't think many would agree that the lack of ability to keep your child safe is an unimportant "failing" and since we all have failings, it is not important. I don't want to believe that most fathers can't keep their kids safe, but I hear so much of this, even from families with stay at home dads, that it worries me, for my adult daughters' sake. I know there are also women who are incompetent at child care, and of course everyone makes errors in judgment, but why is it when you here of something really awful, like leaving a carseat with a baby on the roof of the car and driving off, it is usually the father?

I would much rather hear stories about competent fathers, of guys who can juggle a full-time job and the schedules of three or four kids (without losing any).

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2:
I wonder how many mothers are absolutely sure that there husband can do as good a job of keeping their children safe, much less keeping their lives organized and getting them where they have to go with what they need to take with them, as they do.<hr /></blockquote>-10, spelling and improper tense

Have you ever written ANYTHING competently?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2:
...how many mothers are absolutely sure that there husband can do as good a job of keeping their children safe, much less keeping their lives organized and getting them where they have to go with what they need to take with them, as they do. For that matter, how many men believe they can? <hr /></blockquote>I obviously cannot get my son safely anywhere - nor my brother and his son, and, I suppose, thusly, nor anybody.

Here's my proof:

A couple of years ago we were sailing the offshore reef of Belize. I could have swore my noon sight was a good one, since we were in relatively flat water, the sun hadn't been obscured, and I had set my watch off the time ticks just the day before. Nonetheless, there was the reef - right where it wasn't supposed to be - at least not yet. Good thing the water is clear, huh? (I play these games without consulting the GPS chart plotter so as to sharpen my navigating skills in case the GPS goes down or the govmint decides to someday impose the "inaccurate" mode for military reasons.)

Had we hard grounded on the reef at 10 knots, it would've been a bad day. 25 ticks off shore and probably out of normal VHF range from anybody - completely isolated and no one to call for assistance.

Fortunately, we always keep a bow watch in these type waters - my son in this case, who knows shallowing water when he sees it. Not just "shallow" water either - he can easily discern sand from grass from coral - just by the colors, sun angle, and apparent depth.

Son: Yo Dad. I think your sight was off. Here's the reef already. Maybe you better make sure you used the right date in the tables.

He was right. I used the wrong date AGAIN! Hard to keep track of the dates when they start running together. My oldstimers disease. This also meant that I had charged the wrong battery bank that morning, started the diesel with the wrong bank, and cooked too many eggs for breakfast - thinking we were ahead on provisions. DAMN! I was endangering all of us!

Hope the GPS never REALLY goes out - my imperfect sextent skills might keep us a few miles lost. How more unsafe can one get?

WAT

Nellie, you don't have to hear more anecdotes to know its not true, because you haven't established it's true in the first place.

THE fact remains that yours is an ad hominem attack on men with a conclusion that you couldn't possibly hope to support. Proclaiming that men are incompetent is a sweeping generalzation that is not valid.

Oh for Pete's sake - I never "attacked" men and I never said that all men were incompetent, and you know that. Yes, I would like to hear anecdotes showing that there are many men who are not incompetent at keeping their kids safe and at the organizational skills required to run a family, because I have seen a great deal of evidence that this is not typically the case.

Nellie...
I have yet to see anecdotal evidence that proves men are what you say..

for the one dad that left is kid at a store..there's thousands that make it thru wallmarty entering and leaving with the same number they came with....

but why is it when you here of something really awful, like leaving a carseat with a baby on the roof of the car and driving off, it is usually the father?

most in my area it's the woman...last one was someone left a baby in a car to go get some groceries....and the car was carjacked with the baby in it....

I would much rather hear stories about competent fathers, of guys who can juggle a full-time job and the schedules of three or four kids (without losing any).

you're not going to hear them cause they are BORING BORING BORING...we only hear the dramatic voyeuristic BAD BAD BAD..that's what makes headlines.....coffee breaks....and slam the hubbie get togethers fun fun fun....

but there billions and billions of good dad stories.....that way outway the bad ones...
I personally could tell a million about MR ARK who cares for our three (the oldest is seven) when I am working my twelve hour weekend shift...

just yesterday he took them to church went grocery shopping picked up a pie at a local restaurant...made homemade meatloaf with parsley potatoes fresh green beans and a salad...invited his parents and my parents over for dinner..(my moms birthday)..bought and wrapped my moms birthday present..had the kids make her a birthday card....

house cleaned....etc etc etc...bored enough yet...

blah blah blah......
who wants to hear things like that though...
honestly who does....?

ARK

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2:
 Oh for Pete's sake - I never "attacked" men and I never said that all men were incompetent, and you know that. <hr /></blockquote>Why silly me for thinking such a thing !

You said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />"Are most men really as incompetent as I've been told?"

"This incompetence seems to be widespread among all the women I know, as well as among the women they know."

"I am beginning to doubt that there are more than a handful of sensible men out there."
<hr /></blockquote><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Nellie, I would also hope that, as an older female, you would caution these gals about whining to and about their husbands. Their future as a married woman will be none too bright if they behave like whining harpies. They are likely to find themselves ALONE, and deservedly so, with that kind of behavior.

Most folks will not tolerate all that whining and hostility. I sure wouldn't and most men won't. That's why so many of these 40-50 something feminist harpies find themselves all alone. Who wants to be around a bitter harpie?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by:

Nellie wrote:
but why is it when you here of something really awful, like leaving a carseat with a baby on the roof of the car and driving off, it is usually the father?

ark wrote: most in my area it's the woman...last one was someone left a baby in a car to go get some groceries....and the car was carjacked with the baby in it....

<hr /></blockquote>Here in Texas last summer 3 different babies were killed by heat asphyxiation because their mothers ran off and left them in the car. I don't know of one single example of a father doing this.

We are in a state where several women have murdered their children, [Andrea Yates and the Tyler, Tx lady who stoned her boys] most recently a Dallas woman cut the arms off her 8 month baby girl.

Are we to conclude that women are incompetent - and DANGEROUS - parents?

[ February 21, 2005, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

oops! excuse my incompetence!

[ February 21, 2005, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

I know we are only talking about anecdotes here, so let me add mine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Since my WW left, the marital home is cleaner, and less cluttered. WW was a SAHM for about half of the marriage.

I admit that YD often leaves the home with "Daddy Hair" when I take her to school or church. I keep my hair about 1/2" long give or take, so I wash and wear it. I've not used a blow dryer in about 21 years.

So while she has "Daddy Hair" she arrives in clean clothes, appropriate to the season, and on time.

YD does get to school and church on time, with her glasses, her books, the school papers looked at, homework done, etc. I do admit that I've made some trips to school to take YD's glasses as I've not always noticed she doesn't have them on. We are getting better at this, and I now put her glasses with my car keys on a school night. I don't forget mine because I can't see without them, so the glasses or contacts go in first thing in the AM. YD seems to be able to see without hers so she doesn't rely on the correction as much as I do.

YD had 14 tardies last semester, all days when WW took her to school.

We've tacked the bathroom on the road thing. (YD is 6) Earlier, we would stop at places like McDonalds where they had a family bathroom, or I'd just take her into the mens room, holding her hand while she closed her eyes, walking to a stall.

YD gets well fed at daddy's house. I make breakfast from scratch, bacon, eggs, pancakes or waffles, etc. Ditto for lunch and dinner. I think I've ordered pizza maybe twice since WW took YD and moved out. I've lost 30+ pounds on my own cooking, not because it's bad, but because we eat more healthy.

I've heard YD brag to her friends that her daddy makes breakfast, including waffles "not from a box"

WW drops YD at grandmas. In fact, at a pickup a month ago, I asked YD if she wanted to go to a favorite restaurant, or wanted daddy to cook a Tuesday night dinner. She said she wanted me to cook because, I was the best cook.

I kinda felt bad for WW's mom, as I imagine it's tough for her to take that. She's a great cook too.

I don't keep too many snacks in the house. I was finding and throwing out snacks after WW left. I found boxes of cookies under the bed, etc.

I buy grapes, yoghurt, apples, cheese sticks, and I keep a stash of Girl Scout Thin Mints.

Sometimes I make hotdogs and mac 'n cheese. Most of the time, it's grilled chicken, steak or pork, veggies, a salad and a starch such as potatoes or a pasta. I make lasagna from scratch etc.

Yeah, us men are a danger to children.

I contend that women who don't check out their cars weekly are at least as dangerous as men.

Have you check that all of your lights work, turn signals, brake lights etc? If not, you are putting your child in potential danger when you carry that child in the car.

Have you checked your tires and brakes, what is the air pressure in your tires. When I look at other cars, I frequently see cars with glaring safety defects on the road, many times with children in the car. How can these women put their children in such danger!!!

I contend that is much more dangerous than losing track of your child at Wal*Mart. There are more traffic accidents everyday than there are child abductions, therefore, I think it's far more important to do those vehicle safety checks than it is to keep your child on a leash <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Finally, I've never seen a man apply makeup in a moving car whilst transporting children.

I guess we are too incompetent to apply makeup and drive at the same time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

T

JavaSansContour,

I really do want to hear anecdotes about competent fathers. As I said repeatedly, and as the quotes MelodyLane used show, I was asking a question, as to whether what I have heard from people I know personally and people they know is truly representative.

BTW, I do check my car frequently. Yes, I do know what my tire pressure is, as I check it weekly and put more air in if necessary with the compressor that I wouldn't be without. My daughter checks hers as well. I kind of assumed most people did. I can assure you that I have never put on makeup while driving a car. From what I have seen, distracted driving is all too common among both sexes.

Maybe we could put this thread to rest since it is not solving anything,at least IMO.What do you think nellie?

Anyway,java,

My home is so much cleaner too since my WH is out.Every weekend he came home,it was like a tornado came through.Unbelievable how so much mess could be made in just two days.It was obvious my WH didn't care about the home and didn't care that this issue has always upset me.He would make half baked attempts to cleanup but who was he trying to kid?

It's clear that no one gender has the dibs on inappropriate,selfish,incompetent,hurtful and ignorant behavior.Men and women can be equally as such.What makes a difference is working *together to improve the way of life for us in marriage and in our families.Not complaining behind each other's backs.Face these issues head on,don't devolve into a quagmire of disrespect for one another.I believe this happens a lot,more than people are willing to recognize and deal with.

O

I think the truth is closer to men and women value different things.

I know WW spends a lot of time on YD's appearance, hair, some makeup, etc.

I prefer to focus on cheering on YD for what she can do, not how she looks. So praising her for her progress in learning to read, or cleaning her room is far more important to me. I want to help her build a sense of self-esteem and self-worth. That her worth is determined by more than just a label on her clothes, but the content of her character. (Borrowed heavily from Dr. MLK, thank you.)

I really believe incompetent is the wrong word. If one calls men incompetent, then that's what they will be.

Put me in the camp that just believes men and women are different, and the differences are not good or bad, just different. I'll be shopping at Target, not the Gap, and YD may have messy hair when she arrives at school. That doesn't make me incompetent, I just have a different set of priorities.

Yet I'm sure there are some people (man and women) who are so unsure of their own worth, that they have to tear down someone else to feel good about themselves.

BTW, if you look over at the gas station and you see a 30 something man, balding, checking the oil in his 11 year old car, wave, it's probably me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Marching to the drummer in my head,

T

I have read a lot of threads on MB. And I've seen alot of what I could say are rediculous.

But honestly, I wonder what the motivation is for someone to even start a thread like this asking such an offensive question like this.

And I honestly wonder why anyone could get sucked into this argument.

This question is offensive to men, even the incompetent ones. I guess I could throw out some disrespectful judgements on the female gender, or on Nellie for that matter. Maybe expsosure to too many sitcoms, (all the men would be lost without thier wives bossing them around)

Nellie what is your next question going to be? Most african-americans are really as bad as I'm told. Not all of them, there are the exceptions right? Or most American Indians are lazy? Or most Jews are greedy. Thank goodness for the American white female to bring some order to the chaotic world that is thrust upon her. Now I know why my STBX cheated on me and stole from me. I'm an incompetent boob. She sat home and cultivated adulterous relationships and I worked 3 jobs. Stupid me.

I think some therapy is in order. Or maybe Nellie Bunker is using Patty Ireland for her counselor.

Seriously though Nellie2 .... I always tell my 14y/o DD - Men are bad.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I would like to hear anecdotes showing that there are many men who are not incompetent at keeping their kids safe and at the organizational skills required to run a family, because I have seen a great deal of evidence that this is not typically the case.<hr /></blockquote>My brother is an excellent man and human being. I admire him greatly. One of the things I admire about him is the fact that he is a wonderful father. He has three children - two boys, ages 7 and 8, and a daughter, age 3. He runs a pretty large company and works full-time but I have often called his office in the middle of the day and been told by his secretary that he is away on importance business for the day. On the occassions, I have turned around and called his cell phone. Where is he? At his 3-year-old daughter's Parents Day at gymnastics, or at one of my nephew's school functions, or taking one of the kid's to the doctor. His wife is a stay-at-home-mom. His presence would not be required at any of these functions because if he weren't there, no one else would be. He is very active in their lives. He coaches Little League. I have seen my niece (age 3) and told her how pretty her hair looks and asked her who put it in ponytails with little bows for her. She often replies "My Daddy did".

Apparently I should have posted this thread over on emotional needs, where posters on the "why men marry" thread didn't nearly so much flak, even though some of them were making very unflattering generalizations about women. I don't understand how a question can be interpreted as insulting. I was merely making an observation about the statements I have heard from my co-workers and other acquaintances - in my experience, most wives of my acquaintance have husbands who are incompetent at organizational and child care tasks, if what they say can be believed. This is a statement of fact, but it does not imply that this would be true among other groups of people . I was seeking to find out whether this was true for others as well, and would actually hope that this is not the case. It is unfortunate that some posters misunderstood the intent of my post. It was clearly a question, not a statement.

For those posters who have provided anecdotes about competent men, thank you. That is the sort of feedback I was seeking.

I know what you mean, Nellie. I know some really dumb broads and I am starting to suspect it applies to most women. Women who could not think their way out of a paper bag if their life depended on it. Women devoid of any logic and reason when it comes to making intelligent, sound conclusions.

I wonder, are most women as incompetent as I suspect? I am beginning to doubt that there are more than a handful of sensible, thinking women out there.

Whatcha think?

[ February 21, 2005, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]

OK, Nellie,

I'll take a crack at this. First, let me admit to a few "biases". I am a male. I am a male. I don't like the press much. Did I say "I am a male?"

Good.

When my younger son was in about the 6th grade, he came home very very down. W asks him what was wrong and she got "Nothin". And he wandered off. I come home and he is down, so I ask "What is wrong." He looks at me and asks "Are all men bad? Why can't I be a girl, because I don't want to be bad."

I just stood there and wondered "where the heck did this come from?" Well, after some considerable questioning, the answer is that this is the message he was getting from several of his teachers all of whom are female. ANd it came to a head today in a class where they were discussing something and the teacher was blaming the ills of the world on MEN.

Since that encounter I have become very sensitized to how the media protrays men, how women protray men, and what I preceive the reality of being a man is. There is a complete disconnect and I do blame a majority of it on the media.

It is perfectly alright on TV for men to be protrayed as complete idiots. Further, there is NEVER anything positive about men protrayed on any sitcom or even news show. It is all negative aspects of peoples lives and how men created it, especially when "women's issues" are the topic.

However, you would be hard pressed to find a show where "women's failures" are discussed, suggesting that women are competent and men are not. It is fine to tell jokes demeaning men these days, but not the other way around.

THus, our teachers feel "empowered" to denigrate men in front of a class comprised of at least have male children. Your friends feel "empowered" to complain constantly about their husbands and it sure is more fun than facing their failures as mothers, wives or even drivers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (God save us from cell phones).

My take on this is that most men are VERY compentent at anything they want to be compentent in. However, they often do not do things as women will do them. Their focus is on different aspects of life. I have a younger brother, 14 years younger, who I helped my Mother with as did my sisters. When I got married I knew more about taking care of a baby than my W did. I mean from issues of changing diapers, to letting them cry when going to sleep, etc. So I could say my W was "incompentent" about child care.

However, she did Most of the diaper changing, she was/is a SAHM. She became an excellent homemaker, mother, and W, although she was "incompentent" in all of those categories when we married. What helped? Well, it was me. I helped her out when I could, took ALL of the night feedings, because I could work a flexible schedule and she needed sleep as well. But, my biggest contribution was that I let her be "competent".

I grew up in the military. I was in the military. I was a batchelor for 10 years after college. I grew up with spit and polish and I don't like dirt, I don't like unmade beds, I don't like... My W has a more causual approach to this. I keep my mouth shut. We divide our efforts and she RUNS the house and because I have agreed to this she runs it her way. I run my cooporation and my work, and she let's me run it my way.

She and I don't organize things the same way. So when it comes to the house SHE puts everything away. I don't initiate ANYTHING in that regard. I will help put things away, but I won't do it myself. She and I dicussed this, and she had to admit she got more frustrated when I put something away and she could not find it, than she did when I just let it lay there until she put it away.

Nellie, what I think you are seeing and hearing is based on something that women often don't admit. They don't want their H to do anything with the kids or around the house unless it is done THEIR way. Most men having good survival instincts, realize that it is best to let things just remain as they are. Because they cannot win so why expend the effort on these things especially when as a man one might think the effort is "dumb". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But, believe one thing, if you believe nothing else. If I were your H and I decided to do everything around the house, and with the kids, they would NOT be done the way you want them, AND I would NOT tolerate you interferring in my system. I think more H's are like I am than you realize. If we ever decide to become "compentent" and take over these things, YOU would NOT approve of our approach to things. THere would be more dirty clothes being worn, more bruises and abrasions, more loud noises, more sports, more...

Finally, I think if you and your friends truely feel the way you do, it is time for ALL of you to take a look in the mirror and imagine what it must be like to deal with YOUR perfection every day of ones life. It must be truely miserable. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am sort of being funny here, and I am sort of NOT being funny. I do hope you stop and take another look at what is going on around you, and what it would be like to be on the outside as your H and all of these ladies H's are, looking in. It is NOT a pretty sight.

Of all of the things this site does, it allows people to see things from a different perspectives. It helped me do that and it helps many others do that. I would hope that it will help you do the same.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
I agree that TV tends to portray men as bumbling idiots - but when I was growing up, it was just the opposite. Shows such as My Three Sons, Father Knows Best, and most of all I Love Lucy spring to mind as examples.

I don't think that "making" one's spouse feel incompetent is sex-linked. If my H came home while I was making dinner, he invariably would literally take the spoon out of my hand and start stirring. I don't remember voicing many complaints about the way he did anything related to child care, and I never criticized him in public (a statement that he would not be able to reciprocate). Interestingly, these women who regularly imply that their husbands are incompetent are still married, and most have been for a long while. My H is now married to a woman who doesn't even think he is competent to talk on the phone by himself, who constantly tells him what to say while he is actually on the phone, and who even got him his low-level job at an employer where she is near the top of the heap. (He does do most if not all of the cooking, though). If one were to base a conclusion on this limited sample, it would seem that the path to a long-term marriage is through treating your husband like a child, and not a very intelligent one at that.

The point of my question was that I would not want to see my daughters married to someone that they couldn't trust to take care of the children, yet I see such marriages "working" all around me. I wouldn't want my spouse to say something that amounted to making fun of me in front of others, yet doing so doesn't seem to have any adverse effect on these marriages. Obviously people don't usually go up to these husbands and say, "I hear you left your kid behind at the store," but I am sure they hear about it occasionally.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Obviously people don't usually go up to these husbands and say, "I hear you left your kid behind at the store," but I am sure they hear about it occasionally.<hr /></blockquote>My Mom left me in the store one time. I was 7. I usually did NOT go with her. But this time I did. Right away I went to the comic book area and sat on the floor and read for about an hour. Then I realized I was there too long ... and I looked everywhere for Mom. She was GONE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> So, I walked home. Took about 45 minutes. When I walked in the front door Mom was giving me the business "WHERE have you been young lady? I've been calling and calling you for dinner for 20 minutes!" I looked up at her and said "You left me in the store." ... and my Mom bust out laughing and grabbed me and hugged me and she laughed and laughed.... so there ... my incompetent Mom unable to multi-task SHE left me at the store... Mom who I adore... she died one year ago next month ... and yet I survived. I did not suffer psychological damage ... it became one of the oft-told family stories....

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Nellie,

Who you daughters marry will have little to do with whether they can trust them to take care of children. However, the lack of trust usually has NO merit, as the H's have not or are not allowed to take care of the children.

My point is simply, that it seems to me that a typical stereotype of a modern woman is one that complains about the man in her life, or complains about the men who are NOT in her life. It has become very fashionable, and Father Knows Best, was right on in many households, but unfortunately in the "new world order" Father Knows Least, seems to be the common assumption.

Your exH may have what he wants in a mate, but I can tell you for sure, he is not a common male. Further, if these women have the time to complain about their H's at outings, it is a good bet they don't mind spending money their "incompentent" H's make.

I would strongly suggest that your daughters move from where ever you are currently living for in the areas I have lived and do now live, your H is a vast minority. As for the other women...what can I say? I would guess their H's get less "competent" the more the W's complain about them, I sure would. But, then again, if I truely got offended, she and her friends would know about it. I am NOT a very sensitive guy, when I decide someone has been running their mouth and it does not make much difference to me if they are male or female.

But, I do think the question that started this thread is poorly phrased and suggests that these women are neither compentent to judge the value of their H's or their contributions to a marriage. The fact that they are married does NOT indicate what kind of W's your friends are, nor what kind of H's their husbands are.

I am reminded of the old joke:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Why do men die before women?

Answ: Because they want to. <hr /></blockquote>Men find that funny, most women do not. Why do most men find it funny? Perhaps many of them are married to the type of women you know.

Oh, I forgot to mention to you my response to my son about ALL of the worlds ills being the fault of men. I said perhaps your teachers were right, but then one must agree that ALL of the good things in the world are the creation of these same men, otherwise we would still be living in caves with a life expectancy somewhere 20 years and a large fraction of women dying in childbirth.

My point to him is that there two sides to such all encompassing statements. Or to put it like I put it to him <blockquote>quote:<hr /> There are pancakes so flat that they don't have two sides. <hr /></blockquote>I would think your concerns about your daughters should be tempered with that last quote.

God Bless,

JL

Pepperband,

I am glad that you suffered no permanent psychological damage. I am also glad you were not kidnapped or lost on the way home. I can't say that I know anyone, male or female, who would want their 7 year old to walk home alone for 45 minutes in this day and age. I am sure there are mothers who leave their kids behind, but the vast majority of stories I have heard about this sort of thing involve fathers.

JL,

Actually, I am pretty sure from what my kids have said that whether a man appears to have to potential to be a capable father would have a great deal to do with whether they married him.

Many of these women who you believe might not mind spending the money their husbands earn are earning more than he is.

I don't think my H is all that atypical. In what way did you mean he was atypical - because he tolerates being treated like an idiot, or because he almost completely financially dependent on her?

[ February 21, 2005, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Nellie2 ]

I admit this thread frustrates me....yet I read it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Obviously people don't usually go up to these husbands and say, "I hear you left your kid behind at the store," but I am sure they hear about it occasionally. <hr /></blockquote>Okay, here's one for you about not one but TWO incompetent women:

My kids were 3yrs (son) and 3mos (daughter). I took them to Sears to have their picture taken. I took a female friend with me to help me keep them clean and happy while we waited.

We stopped in the toy section on the way to the portrait studio to adjust my daughter's clothes and put her frilly headband on her bald little head.

We were only focused on her a minute or so, but in that time my son disappeared. We figured he was looking at the toys. We walked around and called his name, to no avail. We walked around the general area--still no luck.

Minutes went by. I kept calling his name. No answer. I panicked! I was heading for customer services for help when over the store intercom we hear "Will the parents of xxx xx xxxx please come to Ladies' Lingerie?"

Yup! Little guy made it to the bra department and then found a store helper and gave them his name and we were reunited.

Two women couldn't keep one three-year-old in their sight, but that one three-year-old male was smart enough to get help for himself.

And I agree with whoever posted earlier that it seems that most really tragic child neglect/abuse stories lately involve women, not men.

Don't be so hard on the male gender!

LL

Have it your way Nellie. You have your perspective and you will pass it on to your daughters, and when they get what the expect, they will be very unhappy.

You set the tone as do these other women. If the best they can do is gripe, and they clearly are not good enough women to change these men they married then they have failed, because as all of the women's magazines say, it is the woman's job to change their husbands into someone they Like, love, and will do their bidding.

My only question is "how is that working for them?"

The complaining is not working, the lack of respect is not working, their efforts as a W have failed. I'd say they were "incompentent". That is the ONLY conclusion I can draw. By any measure these women have failed.

Whether they make more money than their H's or not, they are still spending it right? And if more money is the measure of merit, then what does it say about the rest of the women?

Do you see the hole your question is digging for you? Do you see the hole your friends are in? Either they just love to complain which is rather annoying to listen to (although their friends and you enjoy hearing it) or they are in fact incompentent as W's and women. They have bad taste, bad manners, and therefore bad marriages.

So you win, you are right, tell you daughters to stay away from men. None of us follow instructions well, except your exH.

JL

When my son was about 18 months - 2 years old I saw the neighbor outside and stepped right outside the door to speak to her for a second.

All of a sudden I heard "bye bye" and a slam. My toddler had slammed the door and guess what...he was locked inside.

I ran to the neighbors to call my husband to come home with a key. He was not in his office. I could imagine all that our son was getting into in the house. It was an older home and the screens were very hard to get off, but I discovered one window unlocked and with the power of superman I pried off the screen and jumped pretty high up into the window.

I grabbed my son and cried. It scared me to death. He didn't grow up with any permanent scars, LOL, but I have NEVER forgotten it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Then there was the time I was teaching him to get his underwear out of the drawer and dress himself after his bath. To close the drawer, he would throw his ENTIRE body against it. Guess who got slammed in the drawer? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> OUCH! No permanent damage there either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Oh yeah, forgot this one.

I took a job when my son started 4 yr kindergarten. I was working away one day and totally forgot to go pick him up.

When I finally drove up, there he stood with the teacher...all of the other kids were long gone.

The teacher was saying "now WHERE does your Mom work, L?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, that settles that! Women are incompetent!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mel,

No they are "incompentent" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Heck, how do you spell that darned word? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What I find most interesting is that Nellie would take her guidance about men from a bunch of women who by her description do nothing but complain about men. Which suggests that they don't know much about them, less about "changing" them, and even less about how to achieve a good marriage. Sounds like real roll models to me.

Oh well, I think I have enjoyed about all of this I can.

God Bless,

JL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Just Learning:
[QB] Mel,

No they are "incompentent" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Heck, how do you spell that darned word? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>dang, if I know, I am incompetent!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Sounds like real roll models to me.

<hr /></blockquote>Sounds like harpies to me, JL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Regarding differences between men and women, I'd rather be right than President of Harvard.

Lawrence Summers

This is ridiculous. I never said I was taking guidance from anyone, including co-workers. I am sure these co-workers and their husbands would be rather surprised to learn that they were in "bad marriages."

When I posted the question I was just wondering if their experiences were similar to those of others. As I said more than once, and was ignored more than once by most posters, I was hoping that their experiences were not universal. Posters could have simply said, no, their experiences were different - but I guess it is more fun to get upset.

Nellie,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />When I posted the question I was just wondering if their experiences were similar to those of others. <hr /></blockquote>Sorry, but I don't believe you. I believe there are other motivations ... as demonstrated by your earlier posts on this thread.

I work a minimum of 6 days a week on the graveyard shift. 11PM until 7AM. I chose this shift so our son would never need a sitter or daycare, feeling that the best way to raise him correctly was to do it ourselves. This means I am lucky to get 4 hours of sleep a day, and am making much less than I was before I took this position. I would do it again in a heartbeat. Our son is worth it.

I am our son's primary caregiver(timewise) at least 4 days a week and sometimes more, depending on FU's work shifts. In the time he has been alone with me, he has never gotten so much as a stubbed toe. He has, however, gotten a great deal of love, care, interaction, and maybe even a little early education in how to be a good man as opposed to just a member of the male gender. He will continue to get these things from me regardless of cost for as long as I draw breath. I am very, very lucky to have him to share this with, and I thank God every day for this priviledge.

In addition to being a father and breadwinner, I see that our cars are taken care of, our house and all of its fixtures are kept in good repair, that I am personally physically and mentally attractive to FU, and continue my informal self-education for all of our benefits.

Absolutely the ONLY things I have felt incompetant in since the birth of our son is my ability to choose a decent mate and my judgement of female integrity. And frankly, I am quickly regaining my faith in the first thing with FU's help. The second is a little harder to regain, having known far too many weak, indecent, dishonest, and dishonorable women in my life...but for every "bad" woman I have known personally, I have heard of thousands of "good" women. So, even with the pounding that my confidence took in my judgement, I am already seeing improvement there as well.

Opposites attract is the only thing I can see to say about your friends' situations. Which leads be to believe that their husbands are kind, respectful, decent people. So, perhaps their children can learn how to be successful and "competant" from your friends, and can learn to be worthwhile human beings from their fathers. Both good lessons, if you ask me.

-OAK

OAK,

That was a great post, and a point well made! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2 on EN board:
Money. Convenient sex, companionship, and having a live-in maid/cook may be part of it, but mostly it is money. Most women now work for most of their adult lives, and from what I see in real life and on this board, it it generally men who are long-term unemployed, or who jump from job to job. <hr /></blockquote>So N2, based on that comment on why men marry can we expect another simple thread?

Nellie2 will your next thread "simply" ask the question "Do all men have trouble holding onto jobs and mainly marry women for the finacial support they (women) provide?

I'm sure that most of the male posters here would be surprised they contributed to "your experience" that
<blockquote>quote:<hr />from what I see in real life and on this board , it it generally men who are long-term unemployed, or who jump from job to job <hr /></blockquote>.

[ February 23, 2005, 06:07 AM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2:
 Posters could have simply said, no, their experiences were different - but I guess it is more fun to get upset. <hr /></blockquote>I think that it is perfectly reasonable for a good man, or the spouse of one, to get a little upset at being called incompetent...

OAK is the most responsible, able person I have ever met, and not just among the male gender... don't think for one second that just because I'm female that I'm automatically the better parent in our situation... I have learned more from him than I ever, EVER did from my mother.... just one more reason in a million for me to love him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-Falling Up

In my neck of the woods, if you are fortunate enough to have a decent job you hang onto it for dear life. Male and female alike.

We mostly fear corporate layoffs.

Nope I see no gender favors in job hopping or unemployment. If laziness is the cause, it is a character issue and not one of gender.

That theory just does not hold any water from what I can tell in my world.

I happen to work with many competent men and just as many competent females. And they mostly seem happy in their marriages, and strangely enough they are mostly in longterm marriages.

Now go down and hang around the bars for awhile and you will see a whole new aspect of incompentency, both in male and females.

As JL said, maybe it is a matter of where you live or in your immediate world?

And on this board the male posters seem more than competent to me. Same with the female posters.

OK, this really is my last post to this thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I am beginning to think Nellie2 is doing the same thing my STBX did. Just saying and doing the most outrageous things and then saying, "what?"

Perhaps we need more Ochid on here to reverse babble to Nellie2. But what is really the point?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Posted by Nellie2 on this thread:
I would also hate to think that there just aren't very many competent men, but that seems to be the case from what I have seen and heard . I wonder how many mothers are absolutely sure that there husband can do as good a job of keeping their children safe, much less keeping their lives organized and getting them where they have to go with what they need to take with them, as they do. For that matter, how many men believe they can? <hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2 on EN board "Why Men Marry":
Money. Convenient sex, companionship, and having a live-in maid/cook may be part of it, but mostly it is money . Most women now work for most of their adult lives, and from what I see in real life and on this board, it it generally men who are long-term unemployed, or who jump from job to job. <hr /></blockquote>Based on what Nellie has posted on the EN board (Why men marry), and her own thread here on GQ it appears that the prevalent behavior of men that she has experienced and observed is that:

1. Men are incompetent in areas of childcare and household organizational matters.

2. Men are shiftless and have difficulty maintaining gainful employment and are increasingly using marriage as a tool to raise their standard of living.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Nellie2 says:
Posters could have simply said, no, their experiences were different - but I guess it is more fun to get upset. <hr /></blockquote>Nellie2 did not â€œjustâ€ ask a question. She is not looking for proof, or truth. "Warning, DJ ahead" Nellie2 is looking for validation of her own sexist beliefs. She is looking for the same validation that she gets from her â€œfriends.â€

She was given replies and anecdotal evidence to the contrary to what she said, however her chosen response in almost every case was, to paraphrase her, â€œthanks for that story, BUT , in my experience and the experience of women I know most men are incompetent.â€

Hopefully most posters here will realize that Nellie2 is not looking to gather information to reach a conclusion. She has already made a conclusion and gathers evidence to support it. All evidence to the contrary is a just a rare exception.

I have the perfect solution 2 the problem stated here:

"Hire the incompetent!"

Nellie: Don't believe everything you're told.

-ol' 2long

Boy, the title sucked me right in!! No time to read thru six pages of responses, but suffice it to say my H is a paradox. He is incredibly handy and can fix most anything, but doesn't have enough common sense to put enough water in the cat's food dishes to last them longer than a couple hours. When I met him, his mother was still buying him undies for X-mas (in child's sizes no less, and he wasn't that small!). She was also taking care of his car insurance.

His mom was a wonderful lady, and he worshipped her, which is a mixed blessing. Yeah, it's good to be with a guy who got along well with his mom, but when your way of doing things differs from hers, watch out!!!

Are most men really impotent?

Well, I don't think so. If that were the case, not many of us would be on this forum.

Oh, wait...you said imcompetent, not impotent.
Sorry

"Hire the incompetent!"

Oh lord 2long, given this thread and the turn it has taken, that was funny! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Are most men really impotent?

Well, I don't think so. If that were the case, not many of us would be on this forum.

Oh, wait...you said imcompetent, not impotent.
Sorry <hr /></blockquote>Another funny!

I'll take a sense of humor any day of the week. That is my idea of conpetence! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As long as it is not accompanied by laziness. Laziness and abuse I can not tolerate at any lever. Well abuse goes without saying I suppose.

Wow, this thread is still going?

-Caren

No, I was asking a question, and no one else has any right to assume that they know what my motivation is. When I first heard some of the stories about my co-workers' husbands, I was shocked that a) they had married them and b) they were sharing the stories. But I have heard such stories so consistently that they have been hard to ignore (though I still don't know why they are sharing them). I never said their husbands weren't kind or decent - of the few that I have met, they seem to be.

I know a lot of people who have been unemployed for a long time, and almost all of them are male. On this board, most of the complaints I have seen about spouses remaining unemployed or jumping from job to job have been about husbands. Perhaps the latter is in part due to the fact that some of the wives are SAHM's - I don't know. I don't know many unemployed women, or women who change jobs frequently, or who quit on a whim.. but perhaps others do.

Tom Joad said that I believed that

<blockquote>quote:<hr />1. Men are incompetent in areas of childcare and household organizational matters.

2. Men are shiftless and have difficulty maintaining gainful employment and are increasingly using marriage as a tool to raise their standard of living.
<hr /></blockquote>I certainly never said that all men were either of these things. The evidence I have heard indicates that these traits are rather common among husbands of well-educated women, the group with which I am most familiar. I certainly never said that men are "increasingly" using marriage to increase their standard of living - certainly marrying for money was extremely common in past centuries as well. They seemed to be a bit more upfront about it then, though. Yes, I know women marry for money also - I don't happen to know any, perhaps because the group of women I happen to know are mostly professionals earning a fairly good income.

I find it interesting that there are several men over on the EN board making generalizations about women marrying under false pretenses (ie promising sex and then not delivering) in order to control their husbands' lives, and I don't see very many other male posters complaining about these statements, which clearly do not apply to all or even most women. And if these complaining male posters are not incompetent, how come they are letting their wives run their lives?

Nellie...

I guess what I don't understand about your post is.... if poster after poster were to really come on a tell you mundane story after story of 1000 plus men that are competent in child care...multi-tasking and keeping jobs...

would that really change your perception..

or do we want to believe the worst of people
do we share the worst of people's actions because we are voyeuristic and enjoy the fodder of others mistakes....that it makes us feel less incompetent...

could you accept that your exposure to such stories is not the reality of most men....for it does not mirror at all my exposure to other peoples husbands on whole....
in my work environment which is high skilled high education in multiple fields..IE hospital setting....
and in my personal at home mom exposure with peers via my three children and their schools and activities...

and then just my own childhood friends who are now my age...mostly married most with children...and most doing great....

does my example change your mind...for while i have seen and heard some stories about some men that make me cringe or laugh or roll my eyes....and some about the moms...none have made me conclude such broad applications that I fear my daughters experiences could be in danger...

mr. ark is more patient than me...with the children...and that virtue alone makes him in my opinion a better parent than I...

ARK

First off Nellie2, I DID NOT say you believed that. I do not appreciate you putting forth for other posters that inaccuarcy. What I did write was -

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Based on what Nellie has posted on the EN board (Why men marry), and her own thread here on GQ it appears that the prevalent behavior of men that she has experienced and observed is that:
1. Men are incompetent in areas of childcare and household organizational matters.

2. Men are shiftless and have difficulty maintaining gainful employment and are increasingly using marriage as a tool to raise their standard of living.
<hr /></blockquote>There is nothing there about what you believe. It is about your experience and observations. I took this from what YOU posted from your own hand and mind. Which was:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Posted by Nellie2 on this thread:
I would also hate to think that there just aren't very many competent men, but that seems to be the case from what I have seen and heard . I wonder how many mothers are absolutely sure that there husband can do as good a job of keeping their children safe, much less keeping their lives organized and getting them where they have to go with what they need to take with them, as they do. For that matter, how many men believe they can?
<hr /></blockquote>And ...

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2 on EN board "Why Men Marry":
Money. Convenient sex, companionship, and having a live-in maid/cook may be part of it, mostly it is money . Most women now work for most of their adult lives, and from what I see in real life and on this board, it it generally men who are long-term unemployed, or who jump from job to job .
<hr /></blockquote>You wrote that Nellie2.

You wrote that in your experience and observation most men are incompetent. You wrote that most men marry for money.

I didn't say what you believe, I merely posted what you wrote.

Tell us Nellie2 what exactly it is that you believe. Leave out what you observed and experienced ( we have read that over and over ), Tell us what you believe. Because we know what you said.

[ February 23, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]

Nellie2,

I think those women you listen to, who are supposed to be so educated and wise, are incompetent as wives, or they wouldn't be putting their husbands down so much.

They should read The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands to get a clue.

[ February 23, 2005, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: RAG ]

Nellie,

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The evidence I have heard <hr /></blockquote>If you just "heard" it, it is not evidence. Most men don't complain about their W's job situation because they are not as concerned with whether their W has a job. We do complain about the IMPORTANT stuff...like sex. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I do think your title "Are most men really as incompetent as I've been told" is a generalization that is both insulting, and shows a level of ignorance that is appalling. It also shows that you only read "selected" posts here that support your world view of men.

Frankly, I hope you learned something, but I doubt it. But, for the record the answer to the question posed by your title.... NO

Does that end this? I hope so.

JL

They should read The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands to get a clue. Excellent book, a true eye opener to how badly we women can be to our men. I have learned not to participate in husband bashing with other women and try to limit my friendships to those that act accordingly. I love men <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Who would open my jars, put gas in my car, get the groceriers out of the car, buy valentines for my DD, and clean up my mistakes in the kitchen if there were no men around? Not to mention SF <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God created us so differently for a reason. I revel in those differences. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> When I was younger and sillier, I did not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Oh Wow!
Seven Pages of a thread basically comparing men to women or is it one person competence to another?
Not sure!
All that I can say is Nellie, maybe you need to look beyond what these other women are saying and peer into their relationships they actually have with their husbands and why it is the way they say it is.

Most couples that I know share in the responsibilities of child rearing, and home making. I know only one or two out of the hundreds I know that there is a man who harbors the traits you are extolling.

SM

Tom Joad,

Of course my beliefs are based on evidence I see, hear, and experience. Anything else would be foolish. I am perfectly willing to change my beliefs given sufficient conflicting evidence.

JL,
I have learned a lot, from this and the "why men marry" thread on EN - that men complain about their wives too, only often they think their wives are not merely incompetent but diabolical in their quest for power. A few posters express dismay, but the outcry is nothing compared to that when men think they are being insulted.

Chewing on tin foil said that a major reason he is still with his wife is:

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Why do I stay? Well, she makes a professional wage and I'm currently unemployed, so she is providing my financial upkeep. That's the practical side.
<hr /></blockquote>Obviously my H isn't the only one.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2:
 Tom Joad,

Of course my beliefs are based on evidence I see, hear, and experience. Anything else would be foolish. I am perfectly willing to change my beliefs given sufficient conflicting evidence.

<hr /></blockquote>Your "beliefs" are not based on "evidence" in the first place. Anecdotal evidence isn't "evidence," Nellie, except in the small world of the anti-intellectual. One "anecdote" cancels out another and that has been demonstrated aptly on this thread.

I have much more evidence that you have been hanging with harpies who need to learn better ways to spend their time than sitting around whining about their husbands. Lest they find themselves in the same boat with many other prune faced, worn out 60's has-beens: ALONE. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Nellie,

â€œâ€â€I am perfectly willing to change my beliefs given sufficient conflicting evidence.â€â€â€

For some reason, I donâ€™t put a lot of faith in that statement. I submit to you that you are not thinking outside the box, rather you are focusing on what you wish to see. Let me put this all in a little different perspective.

My wife betrayed me. I come to these boards and hang out with a bunch of people whose wives have cheated on them. I focus on the women here who have cheated on their husbands not seeing the other women. In my everyday conversations my ears automatically tune in to men talking about their cheating wives and for some reason tune out men speaking of their good and faithful wives.

So from what Iâ€™ve seen, heard, and experienced would you be comfortable with me labeling â€œMostâ€ women as Cheaters?

LostHusband,

If you get a chance, please read the "why men marry" thread on the EN board, and tell me what you think the male BS posters on that board are focusing on.

MelodyLane,

I know you blame yourself for your previous husband's departure, but your tendency to blame middle-aged women in general for their husands cheating is uncalled for, and the name-calling, as in your reference to "prune-faced" older women, is insulting and completely uncalled
for.

There is nothing wrong with anecdotal evidence, if a controlled scientific study is not practical. Long ago, when I first started training dogs, I came to the conclusion, based on the anecdotal evidence I saw and heard, that training dogs with aversive methods did not work as well as training with food and praise. I did not need a scientific study to convince me of that. Most of what we learn from life is learned anecdotally.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2:
 If you get a chance, please read the "why men marry" thread on the EN board, and tell me what you think the male BS posters on that board are focusing on. <hr /></blockquote>I have and have threw in my couple of pennies of there. Now if you get a chance could you please respond back to the little "conclusion, based on the anecdotal evidence" that I posted above.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Nellie2:
MelodyLane,

I know you blame yourself for your previous husband's departure, but your tendency to blame middle-aged women in general for their husands cheating is uncalled for, and the name-calling, as in your reference to "prune-faced" older women, is insulting and completely uncalled
for. <hr /></blockquote>Nellie, what is insulting are your silly sweeping generalizations and ad hom attacks on men. Your conclusions lack reason and logic and reflect a very hostile, anti-intellectual view of males.

And I did not target "middle aged" women, I targeted hostile 60's has-been harpies whose favorite past time is bashing men. Or for that matter, ANY woman who sits around and bashes men. How passe,' how 60's. Many of these 60's wind bags are quite ALONE today because of their pernicious, nasty little past time. And rightly so. Not many people will tolerate all that hostility and hatefulness. Why should they?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />There is nothing wrong with anecdotal evidence, if a controlled scientific study is not practical. Long ago, when I first started training dogs, I came to the conclusion, based on the anecdotal evidence I saw and heard, that training dogs with aversive methods did not work as well as training with food and praise. I did not need a scientific study to convince me of that. Most of what we learn from life is learned anecdotally. [/QB]<hr /></blockquote>All it takes is ONE anecdote to cancel out another. That is why anecdotes are an invalid tool in reaching conclusions, one cancels out another and then you are left with nothing more legitimate than personal taste when it comes to reaching a conclusion. And a conclusion based on personal taste is no more valid that your favorite color. As in "my favorite conclusion is............"

And there have been MANY anecdotes on this thread that cancelled out yours. So, you can see with your own eyes that your anecdotes don't work; they failed you on this very thread. Common sense should tell you that your faith in anecdotes is very misplaced and irrational.

Nellie, I would also hope that, as an older woman, you would caution these gals about whining to and about their husbands. Their future as a married woman will be none too bright if they behave like whining harpies. They are likely to find themselves ALONE, and deservedly so, with that kind of behavior.

[ February 24, 2005, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]