oops!

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I am merely asking for anecdotal evidence to the contrary, which I don't think I have seen much of that yet. I don't think many would agree that the lack of ability to keep your child safe is an unimportant "failing" and since we all have failings, it is not important. I don't want to believe that most fathers can't keep their kids safe, but I hear so much of this, even from families with stay at home dads, that it worries me, for my adult daughters' sake. I know there are also women who are incompetent at child care, and of course everyone makes errors in judgment, but why is it when you here of something really awful, like leaving a carseat with a baby on the roof of the car and driving off, it is usually the father?

I would much rather hear stories about competent fathers, of guys who can juggle a full-time job and the schedules of three or four kids (without losing any).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2:
<strong>I wonder how many mothers are absolutely sure that there husband can do as good a job of keeping their children safe, much less keeping their lives organized and getting them where they have to go with what they need to take with them, as they do.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-10, spelling and improper tense

Have you ever written ANYTHING competently?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2:
<strong>...how many mothers are absolutely sure that there husband can do as good a job of keeping their children safe, much less keeping their lives organized and getting them where they have to go with what they need to take with them, as they do. For that matter, how many men believe they can? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I obviously cannot get my son safely anywhere - nor my brother and his son, and, I suppose, thusly, nor anybody.

Here's my proof:

A couple of years ago we were sailing the offshore reef of Belize. I could have swore my noon sight was a good one, since we were in relatively flat water, the sun hadn't been obscured, and I had set my watch off the time ticks just the day before. Nonetheless, there was the reef - right where it wasn't supposed to be - at least not yet. Good thing the water is clear, huh? (I play these games without consulting the GPS chart plotter so as to sharpen my navigating skills in case the GPS goes down or the govmint decides to someday impose the "inaccurate" mode for military reasons.)

Had we hard grounded on the reef at 10 knots, it would've been a bad day. 25 ticks off shore and probably out of normal VHF range from anybody - completely isolated and no one to call for assistance.

Fortunately, we always keep a bow watch in these type waters - my son in this case, who knows shallowing water when he sees it. Not just "shallow" water either - he can easily discern sand from grass from coral - just by the colors, sun angle, and apparent depth.

Son: Yo Dad. I think your sight was off. Here's the reef already. Maybe you better make sure you used the right date in the tables.

He was right. I used the wrong date AGAIN! Hard to keep track of the dates when they start running together. My oldstimers disease. This also meant that I had charged the wrong battery bank that morning, started the diesel with the wrong bank, and cooked too many eggs for breakfast - thinking we were ahead on provisions. DAMN! I was endangering all of us!

Hope the GPS never REALLY goes out - my imperfect sextent skills might keep us a few miles lost. How more unsafe can one get?

WAT

Nellie, you don't have to hear more anecdotes to know its not true, because you haven't established it's true in the first place.

THE fact remains that yours is an ad hominem attack on men with a conclusion that you couldn't possibly hope to support. Proclaiming that men are incompetent is a sweeping generalzation that is not valid.

Oh for Pete's sake - I never "attacked" men and I never said that all men were incompetent, and you know that. Yes, I would like to hear anecdotes showing that there are many men who are not incompetent at keeping their kids safe and at the organizational skills required to run a family, because I have seen a great deal of evidence that this is not typically the case.

Nellie...
I have yet to see anecdotal evidence that proves men are what you say..

for the one dad that left is kid at a store..there's thousands that make it thru wallmarty entering and leaving with the same number they came with....

but why is it when you here of something really awful, like leaving a carseat with a baby on the roof of the car and driving off, it is usually the father?

most in my area it's the woman...last one was someone left a baby in a car to go get some groceries....and the car was carjacked with the baby in it....

I would much rather hear stories about competent fathers, of guys who can juggle a full-time job and the schedules of three or four kids (without losing any).

you're not going to hear them cause they are BORING BORING BORING...we only hear the dramatic voyeuristic BAD BAD BAD..that's what makes headlines.....coffee breaks....and slam the hubbie get togethers fun fun fun....

but there billions and billions of good dad stories.....that way outway the bad ones...
I personally could tell a million about MR ARK who cares for our three (the oldest is seven) when I am working my twelve hour weekend shift...

just yesterday he took them to church went grocery shopping picked up a pie at a local restaurant...made homemade meatloaf with parsley potatoes fresh green beans and a salad...invited his parents and my parents over for dinner..(my moms birthday)..bought and wrapped my moms birthday present..had the kids make her a birthday card....

house cleaned....etc etc etc...bored enough yet...

blah blah blah......
who wants to hear things like that though...
honestly who does....?

ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2:
<strong> Oh for Pete's sake - I never "attacked" men and I never said that all men were incompetent, and you know that. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why silly me for thinking such a thing !

You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Are most men really as incompetent as I've been told?"

"This incompetence seems to be widespread among all the women I know, as well as among the women they know."

"I am beginning to doubt that there are more than a handful of sensible men out there."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Nellie, I would also hope that, as an older female, you would caution these gals about whining to and about their husbands. Their future as a married woman will be none too bright if they behave like whining harpies. They are likely to find themselves ALONE, and deservedly so, with that kind of behavior.

Most folks will not tolerate all that whining and hostility. I sure wouldn't and most men won't. That's why so many of these 40-50 something feminist harpies find themselves all alone. Who wants to be around a bitter harpie?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by:
<strong>
Nellie wrote:
but why is it when you here of something really awful, like leaving a carseat with a baby on the roof of the car and driving off, it is usually the father?

ark wrote: most in my area it's the woman...last one was someone left a baby in a car to go get some groceries....and the car was carjacked with the baby in it....

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here in Texas last summer 3 different babies were killed by heat asphyxiation because their mothers ran off and left them in the car. I don't know of one single example of a father doing this.

We are in a state where several women have murdered their children, [Andrea Yates and the Tyler, Tx lady who stoned her boys] most recently a Dallas woman cut the arms off her 8 month baby girl.

Are we to conclude that women are incompetent - and DANGEROUS - parents?

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

oops! excuse my incompetence!

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I know we are only talking about anecdotes here, so let me add mine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Since my WW left, the marital home is cleaner, and less cluttered. WW was a SAHM for about half of the marriage.

I admit that YD often leaves the home with "Daddy Hair" when I take her to school or church. I keep my hair about 1/2" long give or take, so I wash and wear it. I've not used a blow dryer in about 21 years.

So while she has "Daddy Hair" she arrives in clean clothes, appropriate to the season, and on time.

YD does get to school and church on time, with her glasses, her books, the school papers looked at, homework done, etc. I do admit that I've made some trips to school to take YD's glasses as I've not always noticed she doesn't have them on. We are getting better at this, and I now put her glasses with my car keys on a school night. I don't forget mine because I can't see without them, so the glasses or contacts go in first thing in the AM. YD seems to be able to see without hers so she doesn't rely on the correction as much as I do.

YD had 14 tardies last semester, all days when WW took her to school.

We've tacked the bathroom on the road thing. (YD is 6) Earlier, we would stop at places like McDonalds where they had a family bathroom, or I'd just take her into the mens room, holding her hand while she closed her eyes, walking to a stall.

YD gets well fed at daddy's house. I make breakfast from scratch, bacon, eggs, pancakes or waffles, etc. Ditto for lunch and dinner. I think I've ordered pizza maybe twice since WW took YD and moved out. I've lost 30+ pounds on my own cooking, not because it's bad, but because we eat more healthy.

I've heard YD brag to her friends that her daddy makes breakfast, including waffles "not from a box"

WW drops YD at grandmas. In fact, at a pickup a month ago, I asked YD if she wanted to go to a favorite restaurant, or wanted daddy to cook a Tuesday night dinner. She said she wanted me to cook because, I was the best cook.

I kinda felt bad for WW's mom, as I imagine it's tough for her to take that. She's a great cook too.

I don't keep too many snacks in the house. I was finding and throwing out snacks after WW left. I found boxes of cookies under the bed, etc.

I buy grapes, yoghurt, apples, cheese sticks, and I keep a stash of Girl Scout Thin Mints.

Sometimes I make hotdogs and mac 'n cheese. Most of the time, it's grilled chicken, steak or pork, veggies, a salad and a starch such as potatoes or a pasta. I make lasagna from scratch etc.

Yeah, us men are a danger to children.

I contend that women who don't check out their cars weekly are at least as dangerous as men.

Have you check that all of your lights work, turn signals, brake lights etc? If not, you are putting your child in potential danger when you carry that child in the car.

Have you checked your tires and brakes, what is the air pressure in your tires. When I look at other cars, I frequently see cars with glaring safety defects on the road, many times with children in the car. How can these women put their children in such danger!!!

I contend that is much more dangerous than losing track of your child at Wal*Mart. There are more traffic accidents everyday than there are child abductions, therefore, I think it's far more important to do those vehicle safety checks than it is to keep your child on a leash <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Finally, I've never seen a man apply makeup in a moving car whilst transporting children.

I guess we are too incompetent to apply makeup and drive at the same time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

T

JavaSansContour,

I really do want to hear anecdotes about competent fathers. As I said repeatedly, and as the quotes MelodyLane used show, I was asking a question, as to whether what I have heard from people I know personally and people they know is truly representative.

BTW, I do check my car frequently. Yes, I do know what my tire pressure is, as I check it weekly and put more air in if necessary with the compressor that I wouldn't be without. My daughter checks hers as well. I kind of assumed most people did. I can assure you that I have never put on makeup while driving a car. From what I have seen, distracted driving is all too common among both sexes.

Maybe we could put this thread to rest since it is not solving anything,at least IMO.What do you think nellie?

Anyway,java,

My home is so much cleaner too since my WH is out.Every weekend he came home,it was like a tornado came through.Unbelievable how so much mess could be made in just two days.It was obvious my WH didn't care about the home and didn't care that this issue has always upset me.He would make half baked attempts to cleanup but who was he trying to kid?

It's clear that no one gender has the dibs on inappropriate,selfish,incompetent,hurtful and ignorant behavior.Men and women can be equally as such.What makes a difference is working *together to improve the way of life for us in marriage and in our families.Not complaining behind each other's backs.Face these issues head on,don't devolve into a quagmire of disrespect for one another.I believe this happens a lot,more than people are willing to recognize and deal with.

O

I think the truth is closer to men and women value different things.

I know WW spends a lot of time on YD's appearance, hair, some makeup, etc.

I prefer to focus on cheering on YD for what she can do, not how she looks. So praising her for her progress in learning to read, or cleaning her room is far more important to me. I want to help her build a sense of self-esteem and self-worth. That her worth is determined by more than just a label on her clothes, but the content of her character. (Borrowed heavily from Dr. MLK, thank you.)

I really believe incompetent is the wrong word. If one calls men incompetent, then that's what they will be.

Put me in the camp that just believes men and women are different, and the differences are not good or bad, just different. I'll be shopping at Target, not the Gap, and YD may have messy hair when she arrives at school. That doesn't make me incompetent, I just have a different set of priorities.

Yet I'm sure there are some people (man and women) who are so unsure of their own worth, that they have to tear down someone else to feel good about themselves.

BTW, if you look over at the gas station and you see a 30 something man, balding, checking the oil in his 11 year old car, wave, it's probably me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Marching to the drummer in my head,

T

I have read a lot of threads on MB. And I've seen alot of what I could say are rediculous.

But honestly, I wonder what the motivation is for someone to even start a thread like this asking such an offensive question like this.

And I honestly wonder why anyone could get sucked into this argument.

This question is offensive to men, even the incompetent ones. I guess I could throw out some disrespectful judgements on the female gender, or on Nellie for that matter. Maybe expsosure to too many sitcoms, (all the men would be lost without thier wives bossing them around)

Nellie what is your next question going to be? Most african-americans are really as bad as I'm told. Not all of them, there are the exceptions right? Or most American Indians are lazy? Or most Jews are greedy. Thank goodness for the American white female to bring some order to the chaotic world that is thrust upon her. Now I know why my STBX cheated on me and stole from me. I'm an incompetent boob. She sat home and cultivated adulterous relationships and I worked 3 jobs. Stupid me.

I think some therapy is in order. Or maybe Nellie Bunker is using Patty Ireland for her counselor.

Seriously though Nellie2 .... I always tell my 14y/o DD - Men are bad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would like to hear anecdotes showing that there are many men who are not incompetent at keeping their kids safe and at the organizational skills required to run a family, because I have seen a great deal of evidence that this is not typically the case.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My brother is an excellent man and human being. I admire him greatly. One of the things I admire about him is the fact that he is a wonderful father. He has three children - two boys, ages 7 and 8, and a daughter, age 3. He runs a pretty large company and works full-time but I have often called his office in the middle of the day and been told by his secretary that he is away on importance business for the day. On the occassions, I have turned around and called his cell phone. Where is he? At his 3-year-old daughter's Parents Day at gymnastics, or at one of my nephew's school functions, or taking one of the kid's to the doctor. His wife is a stay-at-home-mom. His presence would not be required at any of these functions because if he weren't there, no one else would be. He is very active in their lives. He coaches Little League. I have seen my niece (age 3) and told her how pretty her hair looks and asked her who put it in ponytails with little bows for her. She often replies "My Daddy did".

Apparently I should have posted this thread over on emotional needs, where posters on the "why men marry" thread didn't nearly so much flak, even though some of them were making very unflattering generalizations about women. I don't understand how a question can be interpreted as insulting. I was merely making an observation about the statements I have heard from my co-workers and other acquaintances - in my experience, most wives of my acquaintance have husbands who are incompetent at organizational and child care tasks, if what they say can be believed. This is a statement of fact, but it does not imply that this would be true among other groups of people . I was seeking to find out whether this was true for others as well, and would actually hope that this is not the case. It is unfortunate that some posters misunderstood the intent of my post. It was clearly a question, not a statement.

For those posters who have provided anecdotes about competent men, thank you. That is the sort of feedback I was seeking.

I know what you mean, Nellie. I know some really dumb broads and I am starting to suspect it applies to most women. Women who could not think their way out of a paper bag if their life depended on it. Women devoid of any logic and reason when it comes to making intelligent, sound conclusions.

I wonder, are most women as incompetent as I suspect? I am beginning to doubt that there are more than a handful of sensible, thinking women out there.

Whatcha think?

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

OK, Nellie,

I'll take a crack at this. First, let me admit to a few "biases". I am a male. I am a male. I don't like the press much. Did I say "I am a male?"

Good.

When my younger son was in about the 6th grade, he came home very very down. W asks him what was wrong and she got "Nothin". And he wandered off. I come home and he is down, so I ask "What is wrong." He looks at me and asks "Are all men bad? Why can't I be a girl, because I don't want to be bad."

I just stood there and wondered "where the heck did this come from?" Well, after some considerable questioning, the answer is that this is the message he was getting from several of his teachers all of whom are female. ANd it came to a head today in a class where they were discussing something and the teacher was blaming the ills of the world on MEN.

Since that encounter I have become very sensitized to how the media protrays men, how women protray men, and what I preceive the reality of being a man is. There is a complete disconnect and I do blame a majority of it on the media.

It is perfectly alright on TV for men to be protrayed as complete idiots. Further, there is NEVER anything positive about men protrayed on any sitcom or even news show. It is all negative aspects of peoples lives and how men created it, especially when "women's issues" are the topic.

However, you would be hard pressed to find a show where "women's failures" are discussed, suggesting that women are competent and men are not. It is fine to tell jokes demeaning men these days, but not the other way around.

THus, our teachers feel "empowered" to denigrate men in front of a class comprised of at least have male children. Your friends feel "empowered" to complain constantly about their husbands and it sure is more fun than facing their failures as mothers, wives or even drivers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (God save us from cell phones).

My take on this is that most men are VERY compentent at anything they want to be compentent in. However, they often do not do things as women will do them. Their focus is on different aspects of life. I have a younger brother, 14 years younger, who I helped my Mother with as did my sisters. When I got married I knew more about taking care of a baby than my W did. I mean from issues of changing diapers, to letting them cry when going to sleep, etc. So I could say my W was "incompentent" about child care.

However, she did Most of the diaper changing, she was/is a SAHM. She became an excellent homemaker, mother, and W, although she was "incompentent" in all of those categories when we married. What helped? Well, it was me. I helped her out when I could, took ALL of the night feedings, because I could work a flexible schedule and she needed sleep as well. But, my biggest contribution was that I let her be "competent".

I grew up in the military. I was in the military. I was a batchelor for 10 years after college. I grew up with spit and polish and I don't like dirt, I don't like unmade beds, I don't like... My W has a more causual approach to this. I keep my mouth shut. We divide our efforts and she RUNS the house and because I have agreed to this she runs it her way. I run my cooporation and my work, and she let's me run it my way.

She and I don't organize things the same way. So when it comes to the house SHE puts everything away. I don't initiate ANYTHING in that regard. I will help put things away, but I won't do it myself. She and I dicussed this, and she had to admit she got more frustrated when I put something away and she could not find it, than she did when I just let it lay there until she put it away.

Nellie, what I think you are seeing and hearing is based on something that women often don't admit. They don't want their H to do anything with the kids or around the house unless it is done THEIR way. Most men having good survival instincts, realize that it is best to let things just remain as they are. Because they cannot win so why expend the effort on these things especially when as a man one might think the effort is "dumb". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But, believe one thing, if you believe nothing else. If I were your H and I decided to do everything around the house, and with the kids, they would NOT be done the way you want them, AND I would NOT tolerate you interferring in my system. I think more H's are like I am than you realize. If we ever decide to become "compentent" and take over these things, YOU would NOT approve of our approach to things. THere would be more dirty clothes being worn, more bruises and abrasions, more loud noises, more sports, more...

Finally, I think if you and your friends truely feel the way you do, it is time for ALL of you to take a look in the mirror and imagine what it must be like to deal with YOUR perfection every day of ones life. It must be truely miserable. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I am sort of being funny here, and I am sort of NOT being funny. I do hope you stop and take another look at what is going on around you, and what it would be like to be on the outside as your H and all of these ladies H's are, looking in. It is NOT a pretty sight.

Of all of the things this site does, it allows people to see things from a different perspectives. It helped me do that and it helps many others do that. I would hope that it will help you do the same.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
I agree that TV tends to portray men as bumbling idiots - but when I was growing up, it was just the opposite. Shows such as My Three Sons, Father Knows Best, and most of all I Love Lucy spring to mind as examples.

I don't think that "making" one's spouse feel incompetent is sex-linked. If my H came home while I was making dinner, he invariably would literally take the spoon out of my hand and start stirring. I don't remember voicing many complaints about the way he did anything related to child care, and I never criticized him in public (a statement that he would not be able to reciprocate). Interestingly, these women who regularly imply that their husbands are incompetent are still married, and most have been for a long while. My H is now married to a woman who doesn't even think he is competent to talk on the phone by himself, who constantly tells him what to say while he is actually on the phone, and who even got him his low-level job at an employer where she is near the top of the heap. (He does do most if not all of the cooking, though). If one were to base a conclusion on this limited sample, it would seem that the path to a long-term marriage is through treating your husband like a child, and not a very intelligent one at that.

The point of my question was that I would not want to see my daughters married to someone that they couldn't trust to take care of the children, yet I see such marriages "working" all around me. I wouldn't want my spouse to say something that amounted to making fun of me in front of others, yet doing so doesn't seem to have any adverse effect on these marriages. Obviously people don't usually go up to these husbands and say, "I hear you left your kid behind at the store," but I am sure they hear about it occasionally.