Boy, the title sucked me right in!! No time to read thru six pages of responses, but suffice it to say my H is a paradox. He is incredibly handy and can fix most anything, but doesn't have enough common sense to put enough water in the cat's food dishes to last them longer than a couple hours. When I met him, his mother was still buying him undies for X-mas (in child's sizes no less, and he wasn't that small!). She was also taking care of his car insurance.

His mom was a wonderful lady, and he worshipped her, which is a mixed blessing. Yeah, it's good to be with a guy who got along well with his mom, but when your way of doing things differs from hers, watch out!!!

Are most men really impotent?

Well, I don't think so. If that were the case, not many of us would be on this forum.

Oh, wait...you said imcompetent, not impotent.
Sorry

"Hire the incompetent!"

Oh lord 2long, given this thread and the turn it has taken, that was funny! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are most men really impotent?

Well, I don't think so. If that were the case, not many of us would be on this forum.

Oh, wait...you said imcompetent, not impotent.
Sorry </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another funny!

I'll take a sense of humor any day of the week. That is my idea of conpetence! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

As long as it is not accompanied by laziness. Laziness and abuse I can not tolerate at any lever. Well abuse goes without saying I suppose.

Wow, this thread is still going?

-Caren

No, I was asking a question, and no one else has any right to assume that they know what my motivation is. When I first heard some of the stories about my co-workers' husbands, I was shocked that a) they had married them and b) they were sharing the stories. But I have heard such stories so consistently that they have been hard to ignore (though I still don't know why they are sharing them). I never said their husbands weren't kind or decent - of the few that I have met, they seem to be.

I know a lot of people who have been unemployed for a long time, and almost all of them are male. On this board, most of the complaints I have seen about spouses remaining unemployed or jumping from job to job have been about husbands. Perhaps the latter is in part due to the fact that some of the wives are SAHM's - I don't know. I don't know many unemployed women, or women who change jobs frequently, or who quit on a whim.. but perhaps others do.

Tom Joad said that I believed that

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. Men are incompetent in areas of childcare and household organizational matters.

2. Men are shiftless and have difficulty maintaining gainful employment and are increasingly using marriage as a tool to raise their standard of living.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I certainly never said that all men were either of these things. The evidence I have heard indicates that these traits are rather common among husbands of well-educated women, the group with which I am most familiar. I certainly never said that men are "increasingly" using marriage to increase their standard of living - certainly marrying for money was extremely common in past centuries as well. They seemed to be a bit more upfront about it then, though. Yes, I know women marry for money also - I don't happen to know any, perhaps because the group of women I happen to know are mostly professionals earning a fairly good income.

I find it interesting that there are several men over on the EN board making generalizations about women marrying under false pretenses (ie promising sex and then not delivering) in order to control their husbands' lives, and I don't see very many other male posters complaining about these statements, which clearly do not apply to all or even most women. And if these complaining male posters are not incompetent, how come they are letting their wives run their lives?

Nellie...

I guess what I don't understand about your post is.... if poster after poster were to really come on a tell you mundane story after story of 1000 plus men that are competent in child care...multi-tasking and keeping jobs...

would that really change your perception..

or do we want to believe the worst of people
do we share the worst of people's actions because we are voyeuristic and enjoy the fodder of others mistakes....that it makes us feel less incompetent...

could you accept that your exposure to such stories is not the reality of most men....for it does not mirror at all my exposure to other peoples husbands on whole....
in my work environment which is high skilled high education in multiple fields..IE hospital setting....
and in my personal at home mom exposure with peers via my three children and their schools and activities...

and then just my own childhood friends who are now my age...mostly married most with children...and most doing great....

does my example change your mind...for while i have seen and heard some stories about some men that make me cringe or laugh or roll my eyes....and some about the moms...none have made me conclude such broad applications that I fear my daughters experiences could be in danger...

mr. ark is more patient than me...with the children...and that virtue alone makes him in my opinion a better parent than I...

ARK

First off Nellie2, I DID NOT say you believed that. I do not appreciate you putting forth for other posters that inaccuarcy. What I did write was -

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Based on what Nellie has posted on the EN board (Why men marry), and her own thread here on GQ it appears that the prevalent behavior of men that she has experienced and observed is that:
1. Men are incompetent in areas of childcare and household organizational matters.

2. Men are shiftless and have difficulty maintaining gainful employment and are increasingly using marriage as a tool to raise their standard of living.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is nothing there about what you believe. It is about your experience and observations. I took this from what YOU posted from your own hand and mind. Which was:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Posted by Nellie2 on this thread:
I would also hate to think that there just aren't very many competent men, but that seems to be the case from what I have seen and heard . I wonder how many mothers are absolutely sure that there husband can do as good a job of keeping their children safe, much less keeping their lives organized and getting them where they have to go with what they need to take with them, as they do. For that matter, how many men believe they can?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2 on EN board "Why Men Marry":
Money. Convenient sex, companionship, and having a live-in maid/cook may be part of it, mostly it is money . Most women now work for most of their adult lives, and from what I see in real life and on this board, it it generally men who are long-term unemployed, or who jump from job to job .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You wrote that Nellie2.

You wrote that in your experience and observation most men are incompetent. You wrote that most men marry for money.

I didn't say what you believe, I merely posted what you wrote.

Tell us Nellie2 what exactly it is that you believe. Leave out what you observed and experienced ( we have read that over and over ), Tell us what you believe. Because we know what you said.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

Nellie2,

I think those women you listen to, who are supposed to be so educated and wise, are incompetent as wives, or they wouldn't be putting their husbands down so much.

They should read The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands to get a clue.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: RAG ]</small>

Nellie,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The evidence I have heard </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you just "heard" it, it is not evidence. Most men don't complain about their W's job situation because they are not as concerned with whether their W has a job. We do complain about the IMPORTANT stuff...like sex. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I do think your title "Are most men really as incompetent as I've been told" is a generalization that is both insulting, and shows a level of ignorance that is appalling. It also shows that you only read "selected" posts here that support your world view of men.

Frankly, I hope you learned something, but I doubt it. But, for the record the answer to the question posed by your title.... NO

Does that end this? I hope so.

JL

They should read The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands to get a clue. Excellent book, a true eye opener to how badly we women can be to our men. I have learned not to participate in husband bashing with other women and try to limit my friendships to those that act accordingly. I love men <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Who would open my jars, put gas in my car, get the groceriers out of the car, buy valentines for my DD, and clean up my mistakes in the kitchen if there were no men around? Not to mention SF <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God created us so differently for a reason. I revel in those differences. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> When I was younger and sillier, I did not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Oh Wow!
Seven Pages of a thread basically comparing men to women or is it one person competence to another?
Not sure!
All that I can say is Nellie, maybe you need to look beyond what these other women are saying and peer into their relationships they actually have with their husbands and why it is the way they say it is.

Most couples that I know share in the responsibilities of child rearing, and home making. I know only one or two out of the hundreds I know that there is a man who harbors the traits you are extolling.

SM

Tom Joad,

Of course my beliefs are based on evidence I see, hear, and experience. Anything else would be foolish. I am perfectly willing to change my beliefs given sufficient conflicting evidence.

JL,
I have learned a lot, from this and the "why men marry" thread on EN - that men complain about their wives too, only often they think their wives are not merely incompetent but diabolical in their quest for power. A few posters express dismay, but the outcry is nothing compared to that when men think they are being insulted.

Chewing on tin foil said that a major reason he is still with his wife is:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do I stay? Well, she makes a professional wage and I'm currently unemployed, so she is providing my financial upkeep. That's the practical side.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously my H isn't the only one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2:
<strong> Tom Joad,

Of course my beliefs are based on evidence I see, hear, and experience. Anything else would be foolish. I am perfectly willing to change my beliefs given sufficient conflicting evidence.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your "beliefs" are not based on "evidence" in the first place. Anecdotal evidence isn't "evidence," Nellie, except in the small world of the anti-intellectual. One "anecdote" cancels out another and that has been demonstrated aptly on this thread.

I have much more evidence that you have been hanging with harpies who need to learn better ways to spend their time than sitting around whining about their husbands. Lest they find themselves in the same boat with many other prune faced, worn out 60's has-beens: ALONE. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Nellie,

“””I am perfectly willing to change my beliefs given sufficient conflicting evidence.”””

For some reason, I don’t put a lot of faith in that statement. I submit to you that you are not thinking outside the box, rather you are focusing on what you wish to see. Let me put this all in a little different perspective.

My wife betrayed me. I come to these boards and hang out with a bunch of people whose wives have cheated on them. I focus on the women here who have cheated on their husbands not seeing the other women. In my everyday conversations my ears automatically tune in to men talking about their cheating wives and for some reason tune out men speaking of their good and faithful wives.

So from what I’ve seen, heard, and experienced would you be comfortable with me labeling “Most” women as Cheaters?

LostHusband,

If you get a chance, please read the "why men marry" thread on the EN board, and tell me what you think the male BS posters on that board are focusing on.

MelodyLane,

I know you blame yourself for your previous husband's departure, but your tendency to blame middle-aged women in general for their husands cheating is uncalled for, and the name-calling, as in your reference to "prune-faced" older women, is insulting and completely uncalled
for.

There is nothing wrong with anecdotal evidence, if a controlled scientific study is not practical. Long ago, when I first started training dogs, I came to the conclusion, based on the anecdotal evidence I saw and heard, that training dogs with aversive methods did not work as well as training with food and praise. I did not need a scientific study to convince me of that. Most of what we learn from life is learned anecdotally.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2:
<strong> If you get a chance, please read the "why men marry" thread on the EN board, and tell me what you think the male BS posters on that board are focusing on. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have and have threw in my couple of pennies of there. Now if you get a chance could you please respond back to the little "conclusion, based on the anecdotal evidence" that I posted above.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2:
MelodyLane,

I know you blame yourself for your previous husband's departure, but your tendency to blame middle-aged women in general for their husands cheating is uncalled for, and the name-calling, as in your reference to "prune-faced" older women, is insulting and completely uncalled
for. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nellie, what is insulting are your silly sweeping generalizations and ad hom attacks on men. Your conclusions lack reason and logic and reflect a very hostile, anti-intellectual view of males.

And I did not target "middle aged" women, I targeted hostile 60's has-been harpies whose favorite past time is bashing men. Or for that matter, ANY woman who sits around and bashes men. How passe,' how 60's. Many of these 60's wind bags are quite ALONE today because of their pernicious, nasty little past time. And rightly so. Not many people will tolerate all that hostility and hatefulness. Why should they?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is nothing wrong with anecdotal evidence, if a controlled scientific study is not practical. Long ago, when I first started training dogs, I came to the conclusion, based on the anecdotal evidence I saw and heard, that training dogs with aversive methods did not work as well as training with food and praise. I did not need a scientific study to convince me of that. Most of what we learn from life is learned anecdotally. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All it takes is ONE anecdote to cancel out another. That is why anecdotes are an invalid tool in reaching conclusions, one cancels out another and then you are left with nothing more legitimate than personal taste when it comes to reaching a conclusion. And a conclusion based on personal taste is no more valid that your favorite color. As in "my favorite conclusion is............"

And there have been MANY anecdotes on this thread that cancelled out yours. So, you can see with your own eyes that your anecdotes don't work; they failed you on this very thread. Common sense should tell you that your faith in anecdotes is very misplaced and irrational.

Nellie, I would also hope that, as an older woman, you would caution these gals about whining to and about their husbands. Their future as a married woman will be none too bright if they behave like whining harpies. They are likely to find themselves ALONE, and deservedly so, with that kind of behavior.

<small>[ February 24, 2005, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>