So WH has been very friendly lately. I thought the fog was starting to life. Anyhow he goes out of his way to stop by to talk about making changes to the checking account and separate credit cards. He had read through info I gave him about divorce. I told him I wasn't ready to do that because I thought it would be harder to keep track of things. He said he agreed until this past week when I charged something he felt should have been paid with cash, and we had had a discussion agreeing to keep the charges down so we could go on this "family" vacation. Said it felt funny that I would do something like that after our discussion. I told him, that the retailer didn't except checks and he kind of backed off.

I told him that I loved him and was trying to work on myself. I asked him to let his walls down long enough to feel that love and perhaps allow himself to have good feelings about me. Right now he can't stand to be around me because of all the "stuff" and he is unwilling to let himself be vunerable to me. I asked him to consider coming home for a short time, without giving up his apartment, just so that we could spend time together trying to work things out.
I proceed to tell him that if he didn't want to work things out and wanted a divorce he needed to realize that things would change, especially with the DD's. He would have to do something about his living arrangements, and he would no longer be able to just "drop by" at his every whim. I also mentioned that I was not about to have another woman raising my kids. Of course this started the temp rising. Then I said I almost felt it would be easier if I moved to another state. Before I could finish my thought he jumps up in a rage, grabs his coat and says thats "F*$*in blackmail". I couldn't believe he just flew off in a rage, I tried to get him to listen to me that I was just expressing the deep hurt I am feeling and that emotionally I didn't know if I could handle seeing him with another woman, and thus moving would eliminate that. He thought I was threatening to take the DD's, then he says so if you aren't going to take them then you must mean your going to abandon then and leave them with me. OH MY GOD!!!!! He didn't believe me when I tried to explain what I meant. It is so obvious that he hates me.

How do I get him to believe that love can come back? How can I get him to see that my intentions are true? I have asked him to come back home temporarily without giving up his apartment, to see if we can do this or not. When is "I don't love you" not fog but truely what the WH feels. How do you know that the mean things they say and do are for real and that they really can't stand your guts, and its not fog.

You can't get him to believe that love can come back because he is thick in the fog. (I have tried with my WW and she does not want to listen). All I can do is educate myself and change myself (which I am doing). I have read 5 books and am on my 6th. I have totally backed off from my WS and am a partial Plan B mode (I have minimal contact with her.)

BHINWI...I've been trying to do just that..but my WH seems to be able to sneak in and blow it all up. HAve you split up your finances? Kids?
Contacted an attorney?

BTW where in WI are you?

Although your WH's reaction was a real shock and hurt to you, I assure you he's just acting like a typical WH deep in fog.

He wants to have his cake and eat it too.
He wants to set up boundaries around he and OW's adultery to shut you out.
BUT he didn't anticipate YOU setting up any boundaries!
He probably is really worried about losing the closeness with his daughters.
And he could care less if it would be upsetting for you to have daughters spend time with him and OW, or for you to have to worry about running into WH and OW together around town.
He just wants everything to be as convenient and normal as possible FOR HIM and any attempt by you to protect yourself and your daughters from further hurt is NOT his priority right now.
He wants to protect the adultery and shield himself from any unwanted consequences.
He actually will expect you to HELP him and the OW feel good about what they're doing.
He'll even expect you to make the kids accept the adultery, OW, and divorce (if it comes to that).

Don't discuss with him what changes you want to make - just start making them.

My WH also expected to be able to continue hanging out at my house even though he had his own apartment and OW. I allowed him to do so only during Plan A (and a couple false recoveries). It allowed me to have more contact with him during Plan A and gave him and OW somethign to feud about. But you will have to set a very firm boundary that this is just temporary. Make sure he knows that if he ultimately decides to stay with OW and to not recommit to your marriage then he will not be welcome in your home anymore. When you do get to the Plan B part don't back down.

Also, unless he really can legally prevent you from moving to another state, then you should continue to explore that option. It certainly would protect you and your daughters from a lot of the harm adulterers can dish out. And it wold sure make Plan B more effective (after you've done a very good Plan A).

He has to realize that he will not be allowed to control your decisions if he continues on his path towards divorce.

Yes, we are heading towards a divorce because I filed in October (I hate myself for filing but after 3 EA's and who knows what else, I could not do it.)

We have split the finances, kids and I get the home and all the furnishings. She gets property that we own. I hope and pray she sees the light but I doubt she will.

I live about 20 miles south of Madison. Where are you from?

FOG : temporary insanity caused by addiction to the other woman.

As long as their is ongoing contact with the other woman, what he says can be attributed to fog.

The anger has to do with him not wanting to deal with what he is doing. It's a smokescreen.

That's why R talk is not a good idea during PLAN A.

The idea is to focus on yourself and talking about own feelings.

Do you really think it would be a good idea to move away with your children?

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: justcall meHomer ]</small>

MM...As far as I know the intial EA has ended, mostly due to the fact that he lied to the Ow about being married. I have since found out that she was involved with someone else at the time. I don't really even think the EA was reciprocal except in my WH's mind. He may be seeing other now, but I don't know and he says he isn't.

I plan A'd him for 3 months after he moved out, but I finally decided it was too emotionally painful to continue. Everytime I spent time with him it would bring me down further. I have not really done a Plan B,more a scaled back Plan A which I guess really lets him cake eat. Plan B scares the hell out of me because I think he is so passive aggressive that he will have no response and let everything progress to a D. I tell him I need to have him here with me and need some type of committment to our marriage in order to stay emotionally healthy for myself and DD's. He says he needs to be away from me in order to stay emotionally healthy. We are butting heads and getting nowhere.

I am trying to change my behavior but what he wants is for me to allow him his freedom and not to have any expectations from him regarding home and DD's and committment to the marriage.

I don't think I can do that


BHINWI I am in Madison. small world. i too pray everyday for strength and enlightment for my WH and myself. They always say what doesn't kill you makes you stronger....If I survive this mess there will be nothing left

I would recommend that, if you want to recover your M, that you need to start with PLAN A. Don't listen to what he says and wants. Develop your own plan.

What makes you think you can't develop a PLAN? Would PLAN A be more hurtful to you than what you are doing now?

Homer, while others can help with advice...
I can only say that I'm thinking about you, and worrying about you...

I know this is bad, but as he left last night.
I was a sobbing hysterical mess...I begged him to believe that I would never try to use the DD"s to blackmail him. I asked him what I had ever done to make him distrust me so...I have never lied.
I asked him to stay with me (when he leaves after a fight I am afraid he is leaving forever) he said no. His email today said he was sorry to see me so upset but he couldn't stay...he didn't want it to end in SF and just falling asleep. He said it would have probably been nice for the moment but that we both need more than that. Yet he won't tell me what the "more" is that he wants.

I just can't understand how the man I loved can turn into this cold heartless stranger. And I can not believe that we can come through this with him ever losing that hatefulness.

I understand your pain. However, as you know, begging, pleading and demanding are huge LBs.

Develop a PLAN A.

In my opinion, children should not be sacrificed because of their parents differences.

I think that the children should still be able to visit with their F. I do not agree with taking them to another state.

You can still do PLAN B in the same city in which your WH lives.

Just call me Homer,

About the potential move..

Ideally, it would be good to not break up the family [I know that's terribly ironic]..if you are in a position of strength..then I'd stay put.

However , if remaining where you are leaves you hamstrung..then go..today, right now, pronto.

Reliance on an ACTIVELY WS to have a shred of decency or integrity or care for their supposed loved ones is not dissimilar to realizing that you are dangling by a cord over a pit of sharpened spikes..and cutting the cord.

Climb out of the pit..and proceed from there.

I can not tell you how it breaks my heart to see BSs get dragged @ss backwards through hell..loss of income..loss of home..loss of custody..because they were too merciful, too slow to act.

First protect your child and yourself. Then worry about your M.

Noodle

Mimi...My intent has never been to keep my girls from their Dad. I have no plans to move, it was just a way of me thinking out loud and addressing how I felt about the possibility of seeing my WH or XH with another woman. I will never use my DD's as pawns, or do anything that would hurt them. Obviously my WH is so friggin guilt ridden with what he has brought into our lives, that he feels the need to make me the mean vicious spouse.
He makes me feel like the dirt on his shoes and turns it all back on me.

Bad Mommy...Bad wifey....Bad...bad...How dare you try to make me feel bad about EA. The honest to God truth is my daughters could care less right now. I have family here so i would stay...my job is here too. If my WH doesn't want me to move because he is afraid he won't see his kids....then damn it...he should see them more then the 1-2x a week he does right now.

I didn't get the impression that you were trying to keep the girls from their Dad. I'm sorry if that seemed to be my focus.

Of course, you are the sane one here. He is out of control and will not do the right thing now. That is the shameful and hurtful reality of all this.

So, are you doing PLAN A now? I'm new to your situation.

mimi..I have been trying to do the plan A since this all came about. i am seeing an IC to work on my anger issues. I try to make WH feel welcome in the house, have invited him for dinners and game night with the DD's. Have continued to have SF with him when it occurs until he told me it didn't mean anything to him and that he realized he was just usinf me.

continue to work for his company 10 hours a week doing a very highly specialized job. Continue to allow him to drop by the house anytime to pick up mail, do taxes etc. Our finances remain together and all bills are paid from one account including his bachelor pad. We initially were "dating" but he stopped being open to that. He was going to IC as well but I think he has stopped that too.

I don't know what more I can do. all he seems to want is for me to leave him alone. But like a typical BS glutton for punishment try to talk about the R just so that I can have some clarity.

The more you beg the less respect he will have for you and the less respect you will have for yourself.

You desparately need to get some space for yourself and get a better perspective.

Part of Plan A is to NOT pursue him. Yes, you make yourself welcoming and attractive to him, try to meet his needs (if he'll let you), but do not pressure him. Expect little to nothing from him in the way of relationship for now. You ARE butting heads - or more like in a tug of war with him wanting to get some space and you wanting to hold on. Let go of your end of the rope for now. Just walk away from putting yourself in the position of pleading and being rejected.

Get really busy taking care of yourself and your daughters. Enjoy life. Schedule things to do with your daughters, family, friends. Do not sit around waiting for him to call or come by.
He needs to not here from you so much and sometimes when he calls or comes by, wonder what you're doing instead of just being available for him.

You want him to want you, to desire you, to respect you, and to pursue you, right? You aren't allowing him to do any of that if he feels you are clinging to him. He won't value you if you don't act like you value yourself.

I don't mean to sound harsh. I know you are so scared and hurt right now. I just don't want you to make the same mistake I made for a long time - and end up losing him forever.

You are going to have to be strong for yourself, your daughters, and your marriage. No it's not fair. And I understand you feel you NEED him to show he cares. But he just can't or won't right now and you will have to accept that as painful as it is.

And you won't be happy if he only stays with you because he feels you can't live without him. You don't want him hanging around because he feels trapped do you? Don't you want him to cherish you and want to be with you? Then you will have to be patient until he once again feels that way.

Find SOMETHING to keep you happy and busy for now. You can do this!

Oh and make sure to pamper yourself and have LOTS of fun with those precious daughters!

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

Just a quick note to you---remember to take care of YOU and NOT the R right now. STOP talking. By your actions SHOW him you have changed and the door is open, that you want to work on your R. BUT you KNOW it is up to him and NO ONE can make him do anything. All the talking, begging etc in the world won't do anything, and may push him away. You WANT your M, but you DO NOT NEED it. Show your H that. Be the incredible woman YOU were born to be. If your H makes stupid and immoral choices, they are NOT yours, they are HIS.

He needs to see and hear the marriage "chains" dropping off of him. You show him you are not holding him or expecting anything. You work on yourself and becoming as emotinally and spiritually healthy a person as you can. Remember, all this distress and unhappiness comes from non-acceptance of WHAT IS. Look at your situation and really see it for what it is. ACCEPT it. YOu don't have to like it, just stop fighting it. It is what it is right now. Then, you take measured steps--Plan A to show him the changes you are making that are YOUR responsibility in the M. All the A stuff and his responsibilities in failing the M are his.

I have to go, I hope I am making sense to you right now. I empathize with you--I did lots of begging in my time and it NEVER worked except for a little sympathy that turned into apathy from him. Once I truly accepted, pulled away and started taking care of myself, the whole dynamic changed.

justcall mehomer,
Do you have MSN Messenger? If so, let me know if you want to chat later tonight. My username is bhinwi@hotmail.com

Anne and MM...you truely give me strength. I listen to you and you put me back on track when I fall off. I have read Dobson's book and totally agree, but I get caught up with not wanting to wait out the fence sitting. So I go to what TQT calls Plan F. He may disagree but I look at the F as "force". Trying to get the WS to make a decision on way or the other. I just need to work on getting on with my life without him, but without a D. Problem is when I try to set boundaries, ie the DD's and the house..WH looks at it as my way of easing into a D..gets angry..and says fine....I do get when I am not around him and then he "stops by" and we get into a big fight about R. I try not to bring it up, but this lst time he did. I guess I should have pulled on of his deals.."Sorry, I'm not up to talking about that right now." Wow why didn't I think of that sooner. But isn't that avoidance?

BHINWI don't have a good enough PC at home to do the messaging thing. We were supposed to get a new one, but now with WH out of the house it may not happen for awhile. But I am attending a class for divorced/seperated people run thru the Catholic Diocese of Madison. This thurs we have a guest speaker talking about addiction of all kinds. If you want anymore info let me know.