I've noticed something in several posts that propmt me to ask this question...

What are we working so hard to save?

I think sometimes it's easy to see the marriage as a "thing" to be owned. We want to polish it, show it off, and be proud of it.

What's interesting, in some of these cases, the fact that there's another person involved seem superfluous. In fact, woe to the spouse who interferes with the polished and perfect marriage.

I see so many spouses expressing such blatant disrespect for their spouses here that I wonder why they would want to recover the marriage. They must be doing it for reasons other than wanting to share their life with this person.

I'm seeing more posts advising BS's to "gain the upper hand" and "hold all the cards" as if this would be a good thing in recovery. Why would anyone want to live in a relationship in which you held something over your spouse or had something held over you?

In my opinion, restoring a relationship starts with rebuilding respect for each other. Yes, I can already hear the cries of those saying "But the affair was disrespectful!". But that doesn't give licensed to be disrespectful in return. Especially of someone you want to share the rest of your life with.

So, I find it quite curious when one bad-mouths and name-calls their spouse or talk about gaining some 'strategic or tactical advantage' in the relationship. It's one thing to vent about the idiotic actions of one, but it another entirely to call them an idiot. It seems that it's often very hard for us separate the the sin from the sinner, yet all too easy to separate the marriage from the married.

Remember...these are people we LOVE. When we no longer love them, our relationship is over and we have no more business posting about them.

Thoughts?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong>Remember...these are people we LOVE.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.....and we wish they would return. In the meantime, the people they have become are usually idiots.

I believe the "strategies" are a normal human response to obtaining what we desire. Yep, some may seem cold and callous, e.g., exposure. But for the most part, I believe BSs are after a higher good. No doubt some merely want to "win," and display a vengeful side in doing it.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe the "strategies" are a normal human response to obtaining what we desire. Yep, some may seem cold and callous, e.g., exposure. But for the most part, I believe BSs are after a higher good. No doubt some merely want to "win," and display a vengeful side in doing it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. But it's oft been said here that Harley's strategies are counterintuitive. Those "normal" responses are to lash out and win! I think that's what MB is about...behaving in ways they may not come naturally to us, but are effective nonetheless. I just think it's sometimes hard for people (myself included) to be honest with ourselves about our motives. As FWS I remember how dishonest I became with myself in order to justify my behaviors. I don't think that's limited to just the WS. We all do it.

I think we're in violent agreement. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.O.,

About being counterintuitive..I think that this is in reference to the two most likely instincts of the BS

1 Leave

2 Cave

Plan A is rather distinctly neither and it is counterintuitive to such an extent..that a great many who try and who think that they are applying plan A are in reality vacillating between choices 1 and 2..then wondering why plan A doesn't "work".

In dealing with a peer, an equal..of course it is very disrespectfull [at the least, outright abusive at the far end of the spectrum] and inconsiderate to "gain the upper hand" or "hold all the cards" but I disagree that this is so in the case of an actively WS. The active WS is not [we all agree..lest we hate them irrevokably] not in their right mind. They are spinning the drain, they are out of control. The goal is to leave them a place to come back to.. however the active WS is ALSO an enemy who has great intimate knowledge of you and ability to manipulate..and may have willingness and desire to do so.

The strategy is about thrusting that enemy out of your personal borders, closing the gates, vaccinating yourself against their wiles. Easier said than done. There are a great many BSs who probably WOULD be better off walking away and letting their WS come to grips on their own. They haven't the self awareness, self control..or understanding to make, much less carry out the plan..and they are lambs to the slaughter.

I agree with you about the disrespect. One persons behavior never justifies anothers. A person of honor must judge thier actions on its own merit.

My examples are ideals..what should be aimed for..but BSs..even those exceptional few who get it and work it seemingly effortlessly are still human also..they are angry and they are hurt..it doesn't make disrespect right..understandable but not right..and yes, they should be called on it.

Noodle

LO, what is more blatantly disrespectful, hurtful and dismissive of a spouse than to have an affair ?

I am coming to believe that no WS or FWS can possible comprehend the damage done by an affair to a BS/FBS. Thats an observation of ABILITY not WILLINGNESS. I just don't think its possible, and vice-versa.

I am not justifying any FBS who is trying to 'Win' over their spouse, but I can understand almost any response of an FBS so low are they laid by an affair.

FWIW I don't think of my marriage as something to be owned or showed off. It the framework for the life we chose to raise children within.

If we divorced I wouldn't want to maintain any sort of relationship with Squid other than that required to help the kids through the trauma of divorce. So my marriage is not seperatable from my relationship with my FWW in my case.

Ok Here's my 2 cents worth.....When you see a BS talk badly about their spouse, it's because the person they've become *THE WS* is not the person they married or fell in love with.

We are trying to gain the upper hand against the WAYWARD SPOUSE, not against our spouse themselves, we are fighting a battle (sometimes it's a losing battle) to save our marriages, to be able to be with the Husband or Wife that WE chose to spend the rest of our lives with.

I have actually resorted to namecalling on here about my WH more than I can count, I say these things when I'm angry with his actions, but I am not, in any way shape of form disrespecting my Husband, He's a wonderful man.....but I completely disrespect my WH.

-Caren

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the active WS is ALSO an enemy who has great intimate knowledge of you and ability to manipulate..and may have willingness and desire to do so. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you're saying here, but I have to disagree with the "enemy" metaphor. Protecting one self from the irrational behavior of someone who is sick is not the same as defending against an enemy.

To elaborate...
If a person you care about was drowning, you would have to exercise care in how you chose to rescue them to avoid becoming a casualty yourself. However, that drowning person is not your enemy . Now, if that person was in fact your enemy, your most expedient tact to vanquish that enemy would be to walk away and allow them to drown.

Our spouse should never be seen as our enemy. I would think that if you get to the point where you see them as such that the relationship may be beyond recovering.

LO,

I couldn't disagree more. Have you READ the board..at all? The WS may be a drowning person..but what they are drwoning in is malice and selfishness. They are often QUITE willing to actively ATTACK the BS. Verbally, financially, physically.

One who does this MUST be regarded as an enemy..or they will damage YOU beyond repair.

If this means that the relationship must/should end..there is no hope..most of the people on this board should throw in the towel..possibly your wife among them.

Noodle

Low said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm seeing more posts advising BS's to "gain the upper hand" and "hold all the cards" as if this would be a good thing in recovery.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but I can understand almost any response of an FBS so low are they laid by an affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me, there is a big difference between a BS who is well into recovery but is encouraging a new BS by referring to that BS's WS as an idiot, or worse,... and a new BS who is still very raw and full of rage saying the same type of things.

I've never understood how it helps to have a recovered BS say such things about a new BS's WS. Isn't it a given that all WS's are BEHAVING like idiots? It's not like it's something the BS needs to be informed of. Why can't we get straight to the helpful advice, and leave the name calling out of it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> LO, what is more blatantly disrespectful, hurtful and dismissive of a spouse than to have an affair ?

I am coming to believe that no WS or FWS can possible comprehend the damage done by an affair to a BS/FBS. Thats an observation of ABILITY not WILLINGNESS. I just don't think its possible, and vice-versa. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can't disagree with this, Bob. I'm glad you added the "vice-versa", because I see it all too often here...those who think they have the WS "pegged" - they are selfish degenerates.

I've noticed more of the compartmentalization...I love my H, but not my WH. Begs another question...Do we love our spouses or do we love the roles we expect them fill? (I don't have an answer or perpective on that one...need to think about it).

I do believe that wholesale disregard for the WS is not healthy. Even, while they are engaged in the affair, Plan A is recover that relationship...to make the marriage more attractive than the affair. Not listening to your WS or showing open disrespect are love busters.

Plan A must be tremendously difficult. I won't pretend I know how hard it must be. I'm not sure that I could do it if I ever find myself in the BSs shoes.

LO,

I hope that you haven't mistaken my position that the WS should not be treated with disrespect.

My input is..to sum it up..that you ALSO can not allow the WS to treat YOU with further disrespect than they already are.

They can not..abandon their obligations concequence free..

They can not threaten the BS consequence free..

They can not put the BS in a position of subordination [ie..you get grocery money when you give me what I want] consequence free.

Of course none of this applied in my case because the FIRST thing I did was seize control of all assets and bring in the proper authorities.

From a position of strength I have the ABILITY to stay the course with honor and dignity. Make sense?


Noodle

Orbit...I see your point and I do agree that there is often a lot of disrespect going on here in terms of name calling and picture painting, but I also agree with Bob....having an affair as far as I am concerned is equivalent to spitting in someones face...and that someone is a peson you promised to honor and cherish.

So if we BS's vent and rant and throw a few #*%$# in there...It is our right...we earned it thru the devastation our WS brought into our lives.

I think the key is getting the anger and hurt out and moving past that in order to get to the road of recovery. My WH says one of the reasons he left is because I always made him feel unloved with my yelling and name calling. I as a "yeller" and yes...a verbal abuser was totally unaware of the lasting effects of my behavior. I am trying to change and find other outlets for my frustrations and hurt towards an emotionally unavailable spouse. Some posters on this board may truely not realize the effects of their lashing out, but as I said...we need that release, we just need to find healthier ways of doing it. It doesn't matter if it is directed at the SOB of a WS....because in reality we are all God's children no matter how "off" or "fogged-up" we may be. We all deserve to be treated with love and understanding....notice I did not say respect because that has to be earned.

So bottom line for me is that we need to ask ourselves....if I heard a stranger talking the way some BS's talk would I think "Wow,..listen to all the love in her voice" or would I say "Man, does she hate whoever she is talking too". I personally know that it isn't hate that is talking, it is hurt and rejection...but not everyone sees it that way. We all have different world views and process things differently, we need to be aware of that and start thinking that way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you READ the board..at all? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Been here a long time, noodle. There are vicious WS out there. Again, they are vicious and angry because they aren't in their right minds, right?

They are NOT the enemy.

I suppose what the term "enemy" means to me is that you are choosing to label this person as your adversary...one who must actively be defeated and thwarted.

If there is to be any hope of recovering the marriage, every action should be done in the context of how it works to that end.

Exposing an affair to vengeful is the wrong reason to do it. Collecting and keeping affair information (well into recovery) so it could be used in case of future divorce is not "having the upper hand" - it's just wrong. ***edited to clarify***

I can assure you that if I label my spouse an enemy...that I will DESTROY them. I will break them...they will acquiesce, or die.

Is that what we think we should be trying to do?

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>

Again, it is all about boundaries.

There are certain things that are just not acceptable. Plain and simple.

Look at Rosa Parks. Segregation was not acceptable to her, so she sat where she wanted to on the bus. Knowing full well, or at least having a good idea, of the ramifications of that choice. She knew her boundaries, her moral code, and it meant more to her to follow that than anything else. If her kids were with her, she might have done something different. Circumstances can change things.

When we get married, we have a "vision," a picture of what that marriage is supposed to be. I shared that picture with my spouse. BEFORE we were married. I'm sure most of us did. But we are kids then, and things change, and time changes things.

The reality of the A changes that picture. I was going to say tarnish, but I think that is too strong. It changes it. Adds something to the formula that grounds the marriage in pain.

I think the BS, or at least a healthy one, more than anything wants to pursue the original course. A happy, healthy, productive marriage. I think the BS would PREFER it to be with the WS, when through things like this site, they come to realize that the WS may not be "crazy." Just lost for a time.

We have all been lost, it just did not result in something as destructive as an affair.

But at some point, the boundaries must be maintained. The BS own life and happiness depends on it. And from what I have seen, most BS are more than willing to cut the WS some slack until they come to there senses. But at some point, the BS MUST protect themselves. Thus the attempt to gain the upper hand.

True, there are some who probably do it vengefully. Only God knows our hearts. But the majority of the BS, I feel, STILL have the best interests of the WS at heart. Kind of like a parent and a child. The parent has all the "control" in a child's life, yet we do not call foul on the parent. Until the parent is no longer acting with the best interests of the child in mind.

I think it is very similar to that.

What are we trying to save? The hope that something good may yet come from all the pain. A Phoenix rising from the ashes, more glorious than it was before.

NCWalker

{Edited to add}
Low,

The answer is actually in the question you proposed. And thanks, for it is an important question. How CAN you save the marriage WITHOUT saving the relationship? For what is the marriage WITHOUT the relationship? I could give my WS permission to lead the "dual life" and enjoy herself with the OM and stay married to her. For the sake of the tax advanteges, incomes, extra adult at home, etc. But I want my kids to know what a marriage IS, not what a marriage looks like. And a marriage IS a relationship.

It is an excellent question for ANY BS. If you are only trying to save the marriage, you should (IMVHO) probably throw in the towel.

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

I agree with Low Orbit and started a thread about this disrespect towards WS a few months ago.
One of the most important beliefs I have "learned" from MB and that sustains me thru this situation is that the WS is in a fog out of which he will most probably come out and realize how awful the things he has done are. Maybe I just want to believe that because I do not want to believe that WS has turned into an uncaring abusive monster I would not want to have ever met.
On the other hand I have not believed this "fog" theory without questioning it and have tried to find proof that it does exist. I pay special attention to the few FWS who post here or in other forums and have found that they all feel terrible remorse and guilt, so terrible that I as a BS, would never want to be in their shoes. But when I put myself in their position in my imagination I can also imagine not even being able to go back to my BS BECAUSE of the guilt and remorse.

That is one of the reasons I think one has to be specially careful about judging WS and letting them know how BS feel: they may not have the courage to go back to the marriage.

Bob, I can imagine how much you have suffered because I AM there and in spite of the 4 months since d day I cannot yet stop thinking of WH for more than a few minutes at a time. YET, if there is any chance of recovery I have to believe in the fog, the fact that it is reversible, and that WH has the possibility of being sorry and regretting the A and I feel the need to make it safe for him to express this. If I don´t, I´m sure there is no chance of recovering a marriage of 19 years which has been good and produced 3 DDs of whom I am proud of. And so is he.


I´m not sure of being able to survive the disrespect, the hurt, the blow on my self esteem which is far from recovered nor likely to be any time soon, but I read of others who have and think that maybe when and if the time comes, I may be able to recover, but I can´t tell now.

Respect is the key I think. If you respect somebody you don´t call them names or mock them. I obviously feel the affair is a lack of respect and I said so in my plan B letter, but I am not going to disrespect WH because he has disrespected me. Several posters have mentioned respect as necessary to a good relationship, and until now, that is one positive characteristic that WH and I shared: we were respectful to each other and basically to everyone else. So we were a respected couple and I am a respected person. and I plan to continue to be that and hope that he will recover the respect that he has lost. But who knows...
Just a few thoughts

LO,

What could possibly be wrong with keeping A info in case of future divorce? I am honestly suprised that you think anything could be? If you are guilty..and it will have bearing on the outcome in "my" favor..why shouldn't I?

Enemy is as enemy does. If you choose to make yourself my enemy..do not be suprised when I fight back..and I fight to win so I would strongly suggest choosing NOT to be my enemy.

If a person who has formerly been my enemy comes and humbles themselves..and asks forgiveness..they are not my enemy any longer.

If a WS is merely a sick person blindly striking out..the same could be said of a rapist or murderer..and while I feel pity for a person brought so low..I will absolutely defend myself..I will pull that trigger.

None of this includes name calling or schemes or manipulations..neither will I tolerate them.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What could possibly be wrong with keeping A info in case of future divorce? I am honestly suprised that you think anything could be? If you are guilty..and it will have bearing on the outcome in "my" favor..why shouldn't I? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's say that three years into recovery, things start going badly for unrelated reasons. Are you going to pull this stuff out and try to blackmail your H with it? Are you going to say "If you divorce me, I'll use this against you."

It's like holding a grudge, noodle. People who love each other just don't do it. I would find it offensive to discover that my wife was holding on things like this.

Do you ascribe to the "just world" concept, noodle? I'm curious, because balancing the scales seems very important to you ("there MUST be consequences"). There is nothing fair about an affair or recovering from one. Grace and mercy become the operative concepts. Taking the risk that you might get hurt again.

noodle said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you are guilty..and it will have bearing on the outcome in "my" favor..why shouldn't I?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you've forgiven the FWS, it is in the past. A divorce down the road some years shouldn't even be because of the prior adultery, (if you've granted forgiveness and he's been faithful since), so why would you bring up the A info in the D? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I think this board is the perfect place to do your venting and name calling provided your spouse or someone you know isn't reading it.

BS have a lot of anger and pent up rage they need to release. What better place to release it than an anonymous board? Who does it hurt?

No its not nice or right to call your spouse names or be disrespectful to them. But if you need to release something this is a far better place to do it than the alternatives.

JMHO,

Miker