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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Lemmonman,

My advice to you, is to stay the hell away from the pregnancy/OC boards.

I avoid them like the plague..the entire notion of an OC revolts me physically. I am actually grossed out to the point of being unreasonable.

Speechless.

Now that is saying something.

I get angry with all parties involved.

Noodle <--- The Wrong Stuff to deal with that issue.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW, I wish I had known this last week. I'm surprised you dialogued with me at all. You must have been very uncomfortable.

The above statement at least explains to me why you referred to my child as a creature.

So, you get angry with all the parties involved? Including the BS who chooses of their own free will to accept the OC into their lives? You must REALLY be angered by and grossed out by my H who can raise and actually LOVE this baby as much as his biological children, huh?

My posts to you must've really given you the heebie-jeebies. Why didn't you just say so? Here, I thought we came to some sort of understanding.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
~ad

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hi AD!!!

i don't know where that quote came from, i'm guessing it was lemonman's, i read part of that. didn't have anything to add to it.

i fear my H will end up needing to do what lemonman felt he needed to do.

i've missed ya AD. although, now that i think about it, i might not have answered your last email.

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What makes you think we didn't, and..was there a conflict to come to an agreement about in the first place?

Noodle

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Noodle~

You didn't answer my question. I really want to know.

I never said the word conflict, nor agreement.

If you recall, we were discussing the role forgiveness factors in or doesn't factor into maintaining the marriage and relationship. We talked a lot about grounds for D post reconcilliation, etc, etc... I thought we came to some understanding on what each other's POV was on the subject.

I referred to baby as "OUR OC" and you took major issue with me referring to him as *OUR* OC. Said it was another example of smudging the lines or something, among other things. I was offended by the things you said, but thought you misunderstood what I was trying to say, remember? Then you commented on how I misunderstood you? I thought we came to some understanding on each other's POV on this too.

I sure didn't know you were angered at my H.

You should be grossed out and angered by what I DID, hell I am!! I'm certainly not offended by what you think of me.

When you say you are angered at all parties, I can't keep quiet. You have offended me by offending my H, even if you didn't mean him personally. You said all parties, so that includes my H.

FL~ Are you serious about your H? WRITE to me, ok??

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AD,

That depends. I tend to be angry with all parties..this is true.

Did your H stand there and allow you to vacillate between he and OM..did/does he allow OM to have ANY role in OCs life? Did your H allow you to mistreat him, drop his standards of life, drop his plain old self respect etc in order maintain your presence in the M? Did he allow you to drag your children with him through the muck of your A?

Then, I would probably be angry with him, if I read his posts..or yours describing it. No different really from how I respond to ANY BS situation except that with OC..with the exception of very few cases..continued contact/continued affair is just incredibly common. It's the norm. It's disgusting. And the advice? It's unbelievable. Even WH says that coninuing the M with an OC in the picture may not be the best choice. For that very reason. The A is never over. Not if we believe what we espouse..that the A partners are addicted to each other..that NC forever is required. No, the BS/WS/OP dance goes on for YEARS and YEARS and they go up..and they go down..and in and out..and more children for both as we go along..and every single time the BS is just sure that THIS one is for real. It's sick..and it's sickening. So I don't watch.

If your case did/does not play out that way..you are an exception, not the rule.

The existence of an OC gives me the heebie jeebies, but that's a personal quirk that I can't back up nor defend so I won't try. I could possibly stand it if the OW was dead or otherwise sincerely gone forever. No promises though.

Talking with you didn't make me uncomfortable at all. Why would it?


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AD, you have mail, 2 actually.

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Sorry, don't know what happened with my post--came out all messed up. Will fix and re-post.

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Autumn Day ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> AD,


Did your H stand there and allow you to vacillate between he and OM..did/does he allow OM to have ANY role in OCs life?

***No, he didn't have to. I never put him in the position to allow or not allow. I told him the adultery was over, and it was. I told him I only wanted him, if he'd have me.

There is NC with OM, period. I told my H *I* DIDN'T want OM to have ANY role in OC's life. He agreed. I left the final decision of x-om's role up to my H though, because I felt it was his right if he wanted CS and or any other kind of support for the baby.
***

Did your H allow you to mistreat him, drop his standards of life, drop his plain old self respect etc in order maintain your presence in the M? Did he allow you to drag your children with him through the muck of your A?

*** Again no, because I never put H in situation where he had a chance to allow me to mistreat him. I told him on D-day that I'd do everything in my power to earn back his trust and respect. I've kept my word.

Sadly, from MY POV, his standard of life has been lowered because of what I did, and the resulting OC. If you ask him the same question, I know what he'd probably say, "If you count not having as many material things as droping my standard of living, then yes, but this baby is a blessing, and one I wouldn't trade a billion dollars for. (Moments like this I really wish he'd post, because I feel like an idiot speaking for him and there's no reason for you to believe m. However I know him well, and he's said something like the above MANY times.)

Dropped his self respect to maintain my presence in the M? This kind of gets back to the whole M v. relationship question. He's not putting up with my presence, he wants my presence. He says there's nobody he'd rather have as his W. (again, wish he was here to verify) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Affair was over before he knew of it. But no, I don't think he would've allowed our children to be dragged through my muck. One of his motivators in life is to protect our children.
***


If your case did/does not play out that way..you are an exception, not the rule.

*** As you see, my case didn't play out that way. I'm not the exception though. There are plenty who have gone NC with the OP, even when there's an OC involved. Granted it tends to be moreso when the OC is the product of the WW's adultery, but there are some MM in NC with the OC. The NC is what disgusts LM though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

On a MB site, to me the first concern should be for the M. Some M can be restored with C of OC, some just cannot be. There are some creative ways in which C with OC can be maintained, without any personal C with the OW. The debate of C/NC is an age old one, especially on P/C. I myself wish more of the focus was on saving the M first, and deciding about C/NC later.
***

The existence of an OC gives me the heebie jeebies, but that's a personal quirk that I can't back up nor defend so I won't try. I could possibly stand it if the OW was dead or otherwise sincerely gone forever. No promises though.

***I understand what you're saying. It's ok if it gives you the heebie-jeebies. In terms of the fact there should NEVER be adultery--there should NEVER be an OC--it's not normal, it's not right--all children should only be conceived between 2 M people. When it doesn't go that way, it is heebie-jeebieish. My child shouldn't *be*, because I shouldn't have committed adultery in the first place. He's here though, and I believe he has a God given purpose in life. I'm excited to find out what his purposes in life will be, just as I am all our children. I'm so gross. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Want some more grossing out and heebie-jeebies?? My H thinks the first purpose of baby's existence was to save our M. Imagine that?? He has even gone as far to say, he doesn't think he could've forgiven me so easily as he did the adultery if I'd chosen abortion. He would not hear of adoption either.

FTR, If xom in my case was M, I'm sure his wife would want me dead too. He wasn't M, and no children either to have to deal with a [censored] sibling. I'm not even an ow--just a FWW probably trying to hard to stand up for herself, H and baby.
***

Talking with you didn't make me uncomfortable at all. Why would it?

***I was being sarcastic.***

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">~ad

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Autumn Day ]</small>

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Yep,

Looks like some of it is missing.

I just now noticed what I *think* is the reference to my using the term *it* to describe your OC.

That you were offended by it. Actually I used the term *it* because I didn't now if *it* was a boy or a girl. Nothing to do with it's OC status.

Just for the sake of clarity.

Noodle

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The *it* wasn't so bad. For sure not bad, if you didn't know the sex. I apologize. The *NO SUCH CREATURE* as OUR OC... is what got to me. Especially when *CHILD* is 3 letters shorter, you know?

But we've already been there, done that. I even asked my H what he thought of the comment, if he thought there was any malice in it. He said, "AD--there are many people who will never understand our situation and our view on it all." He said I shouldn't be hurt by it, it's the internet, etc, etc...

He gets the heebie-jeebies whenever I bring up this site. He thinks *I'm* remaining in the muck by sticking around. He's never really read through it though, and witnessed how many people it has helped.

~ad

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Hi Autumn Day.
I came across the article (below) on the home page of this MB site and thought you may have never read it.

By the way, I admire you greatly for not having an abortion and for the love you are giving this SPECIAL beloved little INNOCENT baby.
Your husband is a Wonderful man to accept this child as his own.

Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here is the article and below that, the first letter and Dr. Harley's reply.


What to Do When You (or Your Spouse) Becomes
Pregnant with a Lover's Child
Letter #1

Introduction: Infidelity has tragic consequences. Not only does unfaithfulness itself cause untold emotional suffering for a victimized spouse, but affairs create a host of other problems, too. An example is our topic for this Q&A column -- pregnancy with a lover's child.

I have counseled and received letters from many women who became pregnant by their lovers, had the child, reconciled with their husbands and raised the child with the husband thinking it was his. I know about 20 children who live in my area who think they know who their fathers are, but they are wrong. What is written on their birth certificates is false information provided by their mothers to cover the result of an affair. In one case, the genetic characteristics of the child are so different than those of either the mother or her husband, that it's amazing that the husband has never suspected anything. He looks just like his real father.

I have also counseled and received letters from men who are devastated when they discover that their wives are pregnant with someone else's child, or discover after the child is born, that it is not his. And I have counseled and received letters from the lovers, who know the child is their's and are tormented by a desire to become involved in their child's life as it is growing up.

Pregnancies are very common in affairs. The passion of an affair makes birth control less effective, and it's often never even used. And birth control is not all that effective even when it is used. I know of a couple that faithfully used two forms of birth control whenever they made love, and yet had five unplanned children.

Most women who become pregnant from an affair have an abortion as soon as the pregnancy is discovered. But there are many who simply cannot let their child die that way. For these, they are faced with very difficult choices.

This column will consider the choices these women face, and what I recommend. Their husbands also have hard choices to make, and my advice is for them as well.

Every person who has e-mailed me letters describing this problem has asked me not to post their letters because they regard the information as being too sensitive to risk disclosure. So I have decided to create two letters from my experience with this problem -- one from a woman who gave birth to a lover's child, and one from her husband. They are both entirely fictional. But they are good representations of the letters I receive.


Dear Dr. Harley,
I am 35, my husband is 37 and we have been married 12 years. We have three children, 9, 7 and 2. I love my husband, and don't want my marriage to end. But I am afraid that once he knows the truth, it will be all over for us.

Five years ago I had an affair. I never wanted to marry the man, but he brought some happiness into my life, and I needed him at that time. Unfortunately, I became pregnant with his child. I knew it was his, and so did he, because I had not had sex with my husband around the time the child was conceived, and my lover and I had sex quite often. Since my husband didn't keep track of our lovemaking, he was none the wiser.

My girl is now 2, and my affair is completely over. But my former lover knows that the girl is his, and is threatening to tell my husband so that he can become a part of her life.

My question is, should I tell my husband about the father of our little girl, or should I pray that my ex-lover just keeps quiet about it? I'm in a panic, so give me your answer as soon as possible.

R.G.



Dear R.G.,
I encourage couples to follow two policies that are essential to a good marriage: The Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty. Without them, your marriage really doesn't have much hope for success. When you had your affair, you violated both of these rules. You were not honest about your affair, and it was something you did at his expense. You were both dishonest and thoughtless.

In spite of the fact that your marriage has not been guided by these rules up to this point, there's no time like the present to make an important mid-course correction. If you were to start following these guidelines now, your marriage would have a much greater chance for success.

You are backed up against a wall, and may be forced to be honest with your husband because of your lover's threats. But it may turn out to be the best thing that could have happened to you, because without his pressure, you may never have considered honesty as a realistic choice. As it turns out, it is what you should have done, even without risk of discovery. You should have told your husband who the real father was as soon as you were pregnant.

Let me review with you the Policy of Radical Honesty: Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know; your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future.

This policy encourages you to keep nothing from your husband, not even the fact that you had an affair and that your daughter is not his.

If you had been guided by this rule from the time you were first married, none of this would have ever happened to you. Honesty would have protected you from the affair, since you would have told your husband about your feelings toward your lover early in the relationship. And your honesty would have set into motion a plan to avoid the affair. But it's not too late to be honest. You have years of marriage ahead of you, and the rest of your years together should be guided by truth, not lies.

I'm sure that your reluctance to be honest is due to your uncertainty regarding your husband's reaction. He may choose to divorce you, or at least hold it against you for the rest of your life. You may think that honesty will open a can of worms that once freed will invade your life and ruin it.

Once he knows the truth, will your husband remain married to you, or will he divorce you? What will he do in response to such a painful revelation? Those are just the first of many questions that have yet to be answered. There are many others: Should you tell your daughter who her real father is? Should he have visitation rights? Should he be asked to help support her?

There are no simple answers to any of these questions, but the Policy of Joint Agreement, the second rule that should have guided your marriage, gives you direction regarding the answers. According to the Policy of Joint Agreement, you and your husband should answer each of them in a way that takes each other's feelings into account. If one of you is not enthusiastic about one answer, consider others until you can agree.

Even the question of divorce should be decided together. I understand how unrealistic that may sound, but it's what the Policy of Joint Agreement guides you to do. You should not be divorced unless you are both enthusiastic about doing so. In fact, all of your husband's decisions following your disclosure should wait until you are both in agreement.

But what if he doesn't want to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement, you may ask. What if he just goes ahead and divorces me? Quite frankly, even though it may not be what you want, or what I would advise, I think your husband has a right to divorce you. And in some cases I've witnessed, when a wife revealed infidelity, her husband has done just that -- he divorced her. It doesn't happen very often, but it happens.

What is the alternative to truth? It's a marriage based on deceit. Do you want that kind of a marriage where you will always have the threat of disclosure hanging over you, where your husband might leave you if he knew the truth? Or, do you want a marriage where you have nothing to hide, and you and your husband are open and honest with each other?

If you decide to tell your husband the truth, and if he would like some guidance as to what to do next, suggest that he e-mail me his questions just as you did. I would be happy to offer him some direction.


************************************************
************************************************

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

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Autumn Day, here is the second letter to Dr. Harley. I hope it is helpful to you, DEAR A.D.



What to Do When You (or Your Spouse) Becomes
Pregnant with a Lover's Child
Letter #2

Dear Dr. Harley,
This afternoon my wife, Robin, gave me the most shocking revelation of my life. And she said she did it on your advice. So I am writing you for help. How should I handle this?

She told me that she had been unfaithful to me for about 3 years, and my 2 year old daughter is not mine. It is the daughter of her lover. I am devastated.

Robin has been the love of my life throughout our 12 year marriage, but has been very withdrawn from me these past five years. I did not understand what was happening to our marriage, but now I know. She says she broke off the relationship with him shortly after she became pregnant, and she wants us to work things out with me. But I don't sense any real remorse on her part. After she told me these horrifying details, she just walked out of the room. I need some reassurance that she really loves me and wants to be married to me.

I also need some advice regarding what we should eventually tell our daughter, and whether I should ever let her father see her. What are the chances that we can work this out? Please help!

M.G.



Dear M.G.,
It will take a few weeks for all of this to settle in, and during that time, your emotions will take you on a roller-coaster. I recommend that you see your doctor as soon as possible and tell him about your crisis. He may be willing to prescribe an anti-depressant medication for you to help you cope with the shock of these revelations. You need to be as intelligent as possible, and this is no time to let your emotions make decisions for you.

There are two rules that guide marriages to safety and enjoyment. They are the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement. The Rule of Honesty is radical. It requires couples to be completely honest with each other, and your wife has taken the first step in applying that rule to her marriage with you -- she has chosen to be honest with you about the affair and the paternity of her daughter. It may be the first time since you have been married that she has made herself so vulnerable. Use this information wisely, and don't hurt her, even though she has hurt you deeply. You have a very good chance of making the best of what could be a tragic situation. You can create a marriage that will not only survive this, but thrive.

But honesty takes you only so far in marriage. While it helps get the facts out on the table, you must make wise decisions once the facts are known. That's why the Policy of Joint Agreement is as important as honesty. I feel that a decision agreed upon enthusiastically by you and your wife is more likely to be wise than any decision that one of you finds troublesome. So as you and Robin wrestle with these difficult problems, don't make any decision until you have considered enough alternatives to find one that meets with your enthusiastic agreement.

The first decision you will face is whether or not to continue being married at all. Your wife's affair is bad enough, but now you are faced with the prospect of raising someone else's child. It may sound strange for you to apply the Policy of Joint Agreement to the issue of whether or not to be married. You may think that it is for you and you alone to decide. But you are not divorced yet, and your wife has valuable wisdom to inject into your thinking. Her perspective may contain some of the most important information you will need to help you make an enthusiastic decision, so don't ignore it.

You are wondering if Robin really loves you and wants to be married to you? And you wonder why she doesn't seem to feel any remorse? Those questions would be answered as you discuss your future together in an effort to find enthusiastic agreement. Once you reach a joint agreement, you will understand her in a way that you never have in the past. That's the way enthusiastic agreement works. It's only possible when you understand each other.

There are many important issues to consider in deciding your future together. If your daughter were your only child, and if your wife were still in love with her ex-lover, who happened to be single and wanted to marry her, I would lean toward encouraging you to divorce. But since she is the mother of your two children, no longer loves her ex-lover, and wants to save her marriage, I would encourage you to remain married and raise all three children together.

There are many considerations that tug at a decision to marry or divorce, and as you discuss them with your wife you will probably find a clear answer that gains your mutual and enthusiastic agreement.

If you decide to remain married and create a mutually enjoyable future together, then the next decision you will need to make is how to treat Robin's former lover. Should he become a part of your family, with visitation rights as well as financial responsibility for raising his daughter? Or should he be out of your lives entirely?

As with the issue of divorce, this one should also be decided by enthusiastic agreement. But if you want my advice, I usually encourage a couple in your situation to keep the ex-lover away from your family. It may be difficult to engineer, but it is very important for Robin to try to avoid seeing or talking to him ever again. Granted, the affair may be over, but I am always concerned about the possibility of it becoming rekindled. If, for some reason, it is impossible to keep him away from his daughter, I suggest that you act as an intermediary, so that whenever he visits, he does not see or talk to Robin.

Another very difficult issue is whether or not to tell your daughter who her real father is. Again, I suggest that you reach an enthusiastic agreement before you make a decision. The Policy of Radical Honesty applies only to a husband and wife, and not necessarily to children. While I tend to value honesty in all situations, if you and Robin can enthusiastically agree to deceive your child about her real father, it's up to you.

But if you want my advice, I would encourage you to be honest with Robin's daughter very early in life, so that there are no surprises later. I think it's more important for her to know she can trust what you say, than that she thinks you are her real father. Eventually, she is likely to know the truth anyway, and if she was consistently told that she was your daughter, the truth might undermine her trust of you. Regardless of who her genetic father may be, you will be the father that cares for her most for the rest of her life, and she will know that about you as you raise her into adulthood.

Once you make these decisions, you have many more decisions to make, but they can all strengthen your relationship with Robin if they follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. While your situation is tragic, if you make wise decisions regarding your future, you will minimize the damage. And your new way to make decisions will greatly improve your lifestyle and marriage, improvement you have needed very badly.

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Julie~

Thank you for thinking of me, and going to all the trouble to post the articles. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I have in fact read them before, several times. Mostly before I confessed.

Those articles, and many kind but firm, tough love MB'ers, and of course God, are what got me to confess the A and probable OC to my H. When I initially came here, I was hoping to hear people agree with me that I should keep the A and baby's possible origins a secret. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I regret beyond measure my adultery. I regret that what I exposed in the truth telling hurt my H beyond measure, but I will never ever regret telling him the truth. It was the right, and only thing to do.

The best part is that I know ,that I know, that I know, my H loves this boy and me, BASED ON FACTS. What an unbelievable gift for all of us.

~ad

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Autumn Day ]</small>

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AutumnDay has looooooooong been a fav of mine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

and she knows that!

Her marriage has recovered, and they have a wonderful life .... all kit and caboodle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

AD has earned this wonderful life with her consistent efforts and her beautiful spirit.

..... so there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

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Dear Autumn Day!

You have done the honourable and right choices ever since you confessed. I think your H is a privileged person. You have certainly redefined yourself to a better you and a better W. Be kind to yourself as well!

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Infidelity changes every life it touches. Relatively early in recovery I do not believe it ever changes life NET for the better, but that it changes lives is uncontestable.

After infidelity ,and in the absence of a time machine we are , each of us, left with deciding how to process the consequences of infidelity in the best way we are able.

It is a terrible thing for all concerned to conceive a child through infidelity. I physically flinch within just thinking of the reaction ADs usband may have had when he found out about the pregnancy...Dear God..and the indicators for the MOST terrible changes that can possibly be wreked on lives by infidelity are all set.

Yet AD-s husband would seem to be a most honourable man. MOST honourable. Being an FBS is alwasy heroes Gig IMO, and dealing with an OC is the 'hamburger hill' of FBS bravery.

Before Squids affair I may have wondered how a man can meekly take on an OC and his wife back after such a devastating blow BUT the Post-affair Bob sees nothing but grit, faithfulness and love that exceeds the websters meanings of the word in him.

His behaviour in respect of OC and A-D is to his eternal credit. And as a reward he has teh undying love and admiration of the woman he loves and a child to call him Dad , to love him and to love.

* Noodle, you KNOW I get as frustrated as you do at some of the true 'doormat' behaviour we see from literally 'pathetic' BS & FBS on these boards, but I cannot see how you can possibly imagine such a dynamic acceptance of AD-back into his arms and of the OC happened out of any SHRED of WEAKNESS from ADs Husband.

Opinions vary of course but my studies on here have seemed to indicate that the most successful recoveries occur in marriages characterised by an active forgiveness, not an expectation of penitence from the FWS, or assertion of indignation. I am trying to apply these tenets to my own situation, against my instinct. When I look at recovery successes like these folks here, I am inspired to try harder.

AD, her H and their child ( sure 'OC' ceased to be a valid moniker the SECOND AD and her H decided to fully accept the baby ?) seem to have a golden recovery, and the best possibly outcome from a sitch that seemed to indicate only tragedy and pain.

My $0.02

All blessings !

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Bob, and AD for that matter,

Nowhere did I say that ADs decision was weak, or doormatlike.

If you look at what was posted, what I actually said ..was that I do not go to preg/OC..it gives me the creeps, it makes me angry.

Now, truly what makes me angry is 1 that OC exist at all....and 2 BSs who allow themselves and their children to be utterly destroyed by the [still] WS and the OP/OC dance.

AD is remarkably fortunate in her circumstances..largely because OM was willing to disappear into the ether and cease to be a factor in the equation. In this situation I admit it is possible I could stand it..perhaps even come to love it..but no promises. My reaction is too strong. I'd be afraid I'd eat it. I'd rather walk away entirely than become a monster myself, and there is a real potential there, and I admit it.

So, I don't belong there, on the preg/oc board. I'm no help at all, don't have anything resembling the situation, and would probably cause a lot of pointless upset.

That's why I counseled LM the way I did. If nerves are raw in GQ..they are doubly so in preg/oc.

I am appalled by what I have found just lurking there, and would never..ever post. I'd like to, 'cause I certainly have my share of sincere questions..that would sincerely be nothing short of taking a gas can and a match to the forum, so they will go unanswered.

Again I say, I got the wrong stuff for the Preg/oc board.

Noodle

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Hi Noodle !

I was referring to AD H's decision to sponsor their new life, not Any weakness in AD.

You asked AD if her H has been "weak and doormatlike", here :

Did your H stand there and allow you to vacillate between he and OM..did/does he allow OM to have ANY role in OCs life? Did your H allow you to mistreat him, drop his standards of life, drop his plain old self respect etc in order maintain your presence in the M? Did he allow you to drag your children with him through the muck of your A?

I was just pointing out that the evidence would seem to indicate that AD's H could not possibly have operated recovery with that level of weakness as the extraordinary success they seem to have achieved has been large predicated around his active strength and forgiveness.

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Oops,

I meant to write ADs H. Small typo.

I think there is still a misunderstanding Bob.

I wrote on another thread that I often regard the BS in the OC scenario as being weak and dysfunctional. Not as a blanket statement..ie..if you accept an OC that makes you weak..but the behavior that I observe..often is weak in my judgement.

So AD asked..do you think MY H is weak.

And I replied..well, does he do X, Y, and Z? Then probably yes, otherwise no.

Does that make sense?

Noodle

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'kay.

I still think AD's H rocks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BP

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