<small>[ March 15, 2005, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>

Yes Noodle, the oc shouldn't be here. The affair never should have happen, hence the child should have never been conveiced. Unfortuantly the affair happened and a child was born from it. Hindsight, to little to late. Now the Bs can either accept the child or leave, the Ws can acknowledge the child, keep it, or try and wipe their hands of it (easier for the woman) I personally don't see a spouse as being week or a doormat for staying with the WS dispite the Oc.

I to am in a simial situation like AD. I became pregnant due to my affair, my H new the truth long before the baby was born. He wanted that child to be his and HE signed the birth certificate. I sure as hell didn't expect him to have anything to do with the child and expected him to leave. What makes things worse is I became pregnant a second time. I did look into getting rid of the child, H told me I had to. I couldn't. At that time the marriage was bascially over. H stayed away from me during the pregnancy wanted nothing to do with it. I was in NC with Xmm. H surprised me at the birth, he was there, he signed the birth certificate again. That was 4 years ago. H and son and so close together you wouldn't believe that he wanted him gone. We have Nc with Xmm, want nothing to do with him.

Like stated, in the begining, these children shouldn't be here. But they are. I love my children to death. Yes I wish I would have done the right thing and conceived the children with my H. To little to late. H considers the 2 oc his own, gets pissed if anyone mentions that the Xmm is their bio father. Not in H eyes.

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Crazymum ]</small>

CM,

It must be a touchy subject..'cause your response in no way relates to anything I have said.

Yes, the existence of OC offends me. Period. Whether you love your child or not..whether your H accepts it or not..immaterial.

As for weakness and dysfunction on the part of the BS..it is not in my opinion the acceptance of OC that is weak..it is the myriad of OTHER behaviors that I'm judging.

Such as, multiple false recoveries, continued contact, continued lies, waffling between OP and S, etc. Allowing those behaviors is weak in my judgement. It would be weak in any BS..but the environment an OC creates sets the stage for this to be THE expected outcome. So, obviously I see it more there.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> multiple false recoveries, continued contact, continued lies, waffling between OP and S, etc. Allowing those behaviors is weak in my judgement. It would be weak in any BS..but the environment an OC creates sets the stage for this to be THE expected outcome. So, obviously I see it more there.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, allowing those behaviors is weak. But not all BS allow it. And just because there is an OC involved doesn'tmean that those things will happen and if they do, it doesn't mean it will continue to happne. Some WS wake up out of the fog and do what they should have done along time ago, put their spouse and family first and tell teh OP to take a hike.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The existence of an OC gives me the heebie jeebies </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The child is inoocent. Just like a child born from rape, incest or what ever else that was wrong. The child is innocent. Now the act that brought the child here gives me the heebie jeebies.

I feel that no matter how the child was conceived, the child deservs nothing but the best in life. The child deserves to be loved and not treated like a creature.

Now if you want to treat the Ws and the Op like a creature, go ahead, they deserve it.

CM,

I agree.. just because there is an OC does not guarantee that there will be false recoveries and the like.

However, I think we both can agree that it is certainly a strong probability *if* we really believe what we espouse [that OP/WS are addicted to each other, that NC is required to break that addiction]. That's about what I see, too. Not all cases..certainly not. Very few sicknesses have a 100% mortality rate, but you are certainly more likely to die from some than others. You may die from the flu..people certainly do..you probably WILL die from smallpox.

Now, if AD doesn't mind me using her as a reference [I'll edit if you do..just let me know]..her situation is favorable, but not common.

Not too many parents are willing to never have any contact with their children. To give up their rights completely. Particularly Mothers. It really is a fortunate situation [that I have to admit leads me to suspect that OP does not know about OC..if OP does in ADs sitch..then I'd say it certainly isn't a common experience] in which the family can plausably close that door and integrate OC if the BS can stand to look it in the face.

I wouldn't compare it to a child of rape at all..while I'll give you the element of a poor beginning..the mother and the spouse are BOTH the victims. Not so in the case of an OC.

You'd have to turn it around so that the rapist gained custody and his spouse learned to deal. Even then the spouse is unlikely to harbor much antipathy for the victim.

Apples and oranges. I just can't seem to make that comparison link. Sorry.

I agree with you that the child is innocent, and deserves to be in an environment where it is loved and valued. Which is why I would probably advocate adoption as a good general practice.

Though the child is innocent..genetics will inevitably play their role. The child WILL resemble it's parents..and I personally am admitting that I could not guarantee that when it did, I wouldn't have antipathy for it as well.

I have said before, I'd rather walk away than be a monster myself. A lot of people make declarations of goodwill..but ignorantly. Not all, but some. I always wonder, let's see how you feel when that childs mannerisms mirror OPs..when it's voice inflections, and attitudes, and habbits are in your face reminders of a person with whom your spouse betrayed you.

Obviously not all FBS encounter difficulty in this area..but I would say that it is affecting enough to put that OC in an at risk for abuse category.

It's a lose/lose situation. Lots of variables that can not be foreseen.

Noodle

I have to comment on this...I read and posted on that other thread too.

I think whether an M can survive with an OC in the picture depends a great deal on the BS involved.

I think that but for the grace of god...there go I....

It was pure dumb luck that we aren`t dealing with an OC...it`s pure luck that ANY of us BS`s are not dealing with OC`s.

My H is not a "better" WS just because the OW didn`t become pregnant...he was just EXTREMELY lucky. And NOPE...neither one of them used protection...it was an ONS but as everyone knows it only takes once...

That said I would not be married today had there been an OC. But that`s all about ME...who I am as a person...they way I am.

I would not be able to sign over X amount of dollars every month without feeling overwhelming resentment. I would not be able to have the OC in my home.

But that is ME...it`s not a reflection on my H, or the OC...

I think Autumn Day is VERY lucky...she has herself a loving forgiving caring H...I think he`s on a higher spiritual plane than I am <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Honestly...that is what I think...that`s what I think of all BS`s who are able to forgive and recover from an OC situation. I admire that...personally I would not capable of that but I admire those who are.

It's a lose/lose situation. Lots of variables that can not be foreseen.

noodle,

That's just it...it is a lose/lose.

In order to have contact with an OC...the children of the marriage suffer.

In order to not have children of the marriage suffer, there must be NC with the affair child.

The thing is, the children of the marriage are no more deserving of love than the affair child.

ALL children are deserving of love regardless of their conception.

I am not sure what can be done when there is fear of the affair starting up again. It would seem that contact would keep going if the parties wanted to do that...regardless of a child being in the picture. I guess an element of "trust" would have to be there...and accountability.

Someone is going to be literally sacrificed...and I don't think that it HAS to be the affair child, simply because they are not the product of the marriage.

Hope I am not a buttinski. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JMHO
committed

Cali,

If I get to pick..I'd sacrifice the OP. Good luck enforcing that if they don't agree..but that would be my choice. NC for either the OC/OP..or OP.

Honestly though..what I really see is near inevitable marriage breakdown regardless.

I think [and this is just my opinion] that when these situation do work out..it is a scenario in which against all probability 2 + 2 = 9..very illogical, near miraculous occurance, and as such should not be regarded as the norm.

The norm is for the OP to have continued contact [and continue to invade the marriage] and to be an element in the marriage thereafter.

When you say that affairees can maintain contact if they want in any case..what you are disregarding is the addiction factor. We believe that, right? That even if one party WISHED to end the A..having continued contact, and a child bond to boot, would make that nearly impossible. Like having just a little crack every day for the rest of your life and trying to fend off an addiction to it. Absurd. It won't work. NC is needed for a reason.

This doesn't even get into the resentment factor of all parties..and ugh, it's just a big mess.

In general, when an OC exists, I think it's time to check out.

When I see weakness, it usually comes in the form of refusal to see what is ever before their eyes. That the A is not likely to end, that they are not likely to recover in a manner that they desire..that waiting another year or three, or ten, will not change this based on the history of choices and actions up to that point.

It's BS fog. Denial and rationalization. Desperation. Despair. When they have come so far out from anything even resembling acceptable living conditions [to me of course] that were they to become conscious of the stark contrast between their life and that of those around them they might literally faint from shock.

I agree with Lemmonman..the entire concept of boundaries often becomes a mockery when an OP/OC is introduced nto the marriage.

The message becomes marriage at all costs. I think that is dysfunctional.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>
The message becomes marriage at all costs. I think that is dysfunctional.

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle,

I don`t think this is what happens in all M`s with OC`s. I do think that many of the BS`s do set their boundaries...but boundaries are not one size fits all.

Some BS`s with OC`s are fine with contact...

Some are not...

Some BS`s insist on being the primary contact intermediary while others are willing to allow a third party to do it.

They do have several options to choose from.

Each BS with an OC decides for themselves what their boundaries are...and many of them can negotiate the situation so it is tolerable

I am with you though...if I had an OC to deal with...I would have walked away.

But I still believe that it is possible to recover with an OC. However recovery with an OC would have required certain things OF ME... things that I would NOT have been be willing to give.

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> that I have to admit leads me to suspect that OP does not know about OC..if OP does in ADs sitch..then I'd say it certainly isn't a common experience] in which the family can plausably close that door and integrate OC if the BS can stand to look it in the face.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't for certian in AD's situation, but if a Mow becomes pregnant, even if the OM/MM knows about the pregnacy, there is no garuntee that he can be the father to the child. It depends on the state and the H.

In my situation, Xmm wanted to be on the birth certificate. The laws in my state are this, a child conceived and born in a marraige is considered to be the H. Xmm took me to court to try and overrule this and he lost.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In order to have contact with an OC...the children of the marriage suffer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, they do. My H also has an Oc. After 6yrs of trying to have contact and be on good terms with Xow, we gave up. It was damaging our family and affection our children.

So basically, there is NC with Xmm and the oc, and H has NC with his OC.

Legitimately, we are a blended family. But we don't act like or treat the 2 oc differently.

I think at one point this marriage should have been in the trash can, done and over with. oth H and I have made some horrible choices years ago. We worked like hell to come back from where we were.

Daisy,

Don't make me get the stick <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I said some and likely and usually and probable ..

you are rewriting me to have said all.

Noodle

noodle,

One thing I wanted to mention because right now I'm participating in a class about infidelity....is about the "addictive" nature of affairs. The book we're covering is "Why We Love" by Helen Fisher the biochemist who actually did the ground breaking research that supports the addictiveness of affairs (almost all the infidelity experts were thrilled when what they knew imperically could finally be proven scientifically). The "attraction" stage of love which is characterized by high levels of dopamine and norephenphrine (powerful stimulants) and low levels of serotin (which creates obsessiveness) only last for a limited time....during that time...our spouses truly are "fogged" and act just like addicts. That's why Harley and others use that two year time frame for strategies like Plan B.

The biochemistry of affairs (the part that acts like an addiction in our brains) is not open ended...it DOESN't last forever (thank God! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ...If it did, most of us could not stand it!) and certainly not for the entire life of a child. It peaks at around 6 months and lasts for appoximately eighteen months to two years...so just because a recovered WS may have to see an OP from time to time (hopefully not much at all...or only with his spouse being present)...it is not like getting a dose of cocaine forever *whew*.

True....accounts in the love bank NEVER close...so it's not that there is NO risk...but it's certainly not subject to the same addictive qualities that drive early affairs....and it can be POJA'd if the husband and wife can keep their own relationship honest, protected, loving and strong and BOTH spouses are committed to keeping their family together. Is it a more daunting challenge? wow you bet...but I have seen pretty amazing survival stories on the OC board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> I said some and likely and usually and probable ..

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I know this is the way you phrased it...which is the reason for the tone of my posts.

I think...if I read your posts correctly that you feel there is an OC involved that either the A will not end...OR that at some point the BS will just get fed up with the whole situation and walk away in most (but not all) cases.

Now I do think this true sometimes...but I don`t think it is necessarily the norm...especially if the couple has some type of professional counselling.

If they are having good outside help and BOTH spouses are committed then it can work.

I also think that just because there is an OC in the picture that does not mean that the WS would be less likely to want to repair the M or less likely to be willing to do the necessary work.

But however I do think an OC would require ALOT more from the BS. Now I don`t have any statistics on this...I have no idea how many BS`s do choose a D when an OC is involved...but I think of those who would choose a D...that would happen fairly quickly. I think a person would know almost immediately if they would be able to handle this or not.

The BS`s on the OC board have decided to try and work this out...and to me this is THE biggest hurdle to overcome when recovering from an OC/A. The attitude of the BS. The willingess to try. I do think that MOST of the BS`s there will be able to recover just by the fact that they are open to the idea.

Pep~ Right back atcha'!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Frank~ Ok, you are always so good at popping in and saying such kind things to me during a US sleeping time zone, but you're not so good at popping back in so you can see I've properly thanked you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So...JIC you check back in this time...THANK YOU!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bob~
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Before Squids affair I may have wondered how a man can meekly take on an OC and his wife back after such a devastating blow BUT the Post-affair Bob sees nothing but grit, faithfulness and love that exceeds the websters meanings of the word in him.
His behaviour in respect of OC and A-D is to his eternal credit. And as a reward he has teh undying love and admiration of the woman he loves and a child to call him Dad , to love him and to love.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the very thing I'm trying to get across. I go a bit bonkers when someone even remotely suggests my H is weak. Nothing, absolutely nothing could be further from the truth.

Naturally when I stand up for him, most people will see it as me being subjective. So for your objective opinion, I thank you Bob. I thank you for believing me, but mostly for understanding the difference between being a doormat, and being a loving, forgiving man. For seeing a man who has within him the capacity to love the very person who is the product of the worst betrayal in his life, and equating that capacity with strength rather than weakness. Especially when all that is "normal" and "right" would indicate he should do otherwise.

Isn't it amazing how the Post A person tends to see things in a whole different light than the Pre A person? Bob, I'm quite certain my H would've flinched, or even felt physically ill at the very thought of me someday telling him I was most likely carrying another man's child. Who wouldn't be disgusted by the very thought? The very thought is a nightmare.

I think if you polled 100 people, most if not all would say there's no way they'd stay in a M where an OC was the outcome of their spouse's A. I planned on my H NOT staying. I was shocked by his decisions, but at no time did I see him as weak. He didn't drivel and say, "okaaaaay, I'll do whatever it takes to have you remain my wife....I'll live with your OC even though I don't really want too....x-om can be any part of baby's life he wishes..." He was firm in his decisions, very bold about his intentions. He made it abudantly clear his decisions were HIS, and that I wasn't forcing him into one single thing. He made choices of his own FREE WILL, he did NOT CAVE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Opinions vary of course but my studies on here have seemed to indicate that the most successful recoveries occur in marriages characterised by an active forgiveness, not an expectation of penitence from the FWS, or assertion of indignation. I am trying to apply these tenets to my own situation, against my instinct. When I look at recovery successes like these folks here, I am inspired to try harder.

AD, her H and their child ( sure 'OC' ceased to be a valid moniker the SECOND AD and her H decided to fully accept the baby ?) seem to have a golden recovery, and the best possibly outcome from a sitch that seemed to indicate only tragedy and pain.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Two things you said here are very key..."against my instinct", and "from a sitch that seemed to only indicate tragedy and pain"

I believe the very tenets you speak of that make M recovery successful usually go against ALL human nature and instinct. Adultery and resulting OC DO indicate nothing but tragedy and pain. My H looked to God for answers when this happened. He'd tell you he granted me forgiveness and acceptance, in large part out of obedience to God. He said he looked at what the "world" would most likely tell him to do, and did the opposite...knowing that the opposite would most likely be what God would want him to do.

Forgiveness and the ability to NOT hold the betrayal over the betrayers head doesn't come easily or naturally to most people. My H and I are 22 months post D-day, and he has not once thrown anything in my face regarding the A. He throws my poor checkbook balancing habits in my face <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , but not the adultery. I have given him some moments in those months where it would be so easy for him to throw A in my face, but each time I believe he made a choice to take the higher road. It probably goes against his instinct, but he also realizes his reactions are his choice.

Not trying to toot my own horn here, but my H has said my true remorse carried a lot of weight in his decisions. If I'd been waffling at all, and non-remorseful, he might have forgiven, but he most definitely would not have put up with any of my s**t. We both did what is necessary of the BS and WS in order to have the best chance.

He said the fact that I broke my vows to him did not dictate that he should break his to me. Said he was sticking by the "for better or worse", saying if this wasn't the worse, didn't know what was, but he was staying.

This is really silly, but thank you also Bob for referring to us as folks. That's just what we are~~folks. Regular, ordinary people who took the ugliest of ugliest situations and decided together it would be the commencement of our new life together.

I'm glad our situation has inspired you. I wish nothing but the very best for you and Squid. I hope when it's all said and done, you and Squid will be able to say as my H and I do, "We wouldn't trade the M we have now for anything in the world, stains, warts and all..." . Not that you should be thankful for the A per se, but for the opportunity it provided in causing each of you to want to be a better spouse, a better person. To transcend the tragedy...

Kind regards,
~ad

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Autumn Day ]</small>

Hi all,

I have been reading this thread with great interest. I am especially interested in Noodle's thoughts on these matters. At the risk of putting words in your mouth Noodle, I think YOUR point of view is one that is very typical. It probably at one time closely reflected my point of view when I was younger and before I came upon this site.

But, I must tell you that it was finding this site and learning ONE single story that changed everything in my way of thinking. Not just about infidelity or children produced by this infidelity, but about LIFE itself.

That SINGLE poster was K. I don't know if you have read his story. He still posts occasionally around here. But, ladies and gentlemen HIS situation and what he did with it, hit me like a ton of bricks. And I think you would do well to read his story some time.

In a nutshell his W had an A. He found out, did plan A, did plan B, worked with Steve Harley through the whole thing. He then finds out that his W is pregnant with OM's baby and ... he views it as an OPPORTUNITY to save his family, his marriage and perhaps his W. He does this and today that little boy is probably 6 years old. His older children love this child, he loves this child, and I presume his W loves this child.

It seems to me that what you will find in K's situation is also in many others that seem so sad and bad, that there is an OPPORUTNITY to make something very very good out of this situation.

It is hard to see this from the position of day to day living. It is hard to fathom that such a difficult situation could lead to an OPPORTUNITY for deeper love, deeper respect, and happiness. It is NOT the path anyone would choose, but it can be the path that brings everything together. The data is clear on this. Look at K, look at AD, look at CrazyMum. I would have never guessed such things years ago, but NOW I see the OPPORTUNITY.

It is there within an affair, it is there within an unwanted pregnancy, it is not where we would like to look for it, but it is there. Even Harley recommends that if there are no other children it is best for the W to leave to be with OM. Similarly for the H to leave and be with OW.

BUT, what is very clear is that it is an OPPORTUNITY if one has the strength to do it.

So these situations are very sad...until someone comes along and sees it as an OPPORTUNITY and then it transistions into something amazing.

I know from AD's posting of her H's comments that he viewed this as an OPPORTUNITY to make things work in their marriage and they have. I find it remarkable.

So Noodle and others please consider that within these very very desperate situation there resides an OPPORTUNITY to make something very very good. And people have indeed done just that.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

You have my full agreement. That is not the point though. Cases such as this are the exception.

A BS who is in full awareness of themselves and their goal, seeing an opportunity and embracing it..that's the stuff that Myths are made of.

A WS who repents fully and makes a full turnaround and earns their way back into being regarded as a person of integrity.

Ditto. Priceless.

Yet, not what is happening. Not usually. The opportunity isn't taken. Neither are in possesion of that awareness and perseverance.

When I read, what I see are broken people. Not broken in a healthfull broken will sort of way..but a dysfunctional broken spirit sort of way.

People who have lost the will and ability to say "No, I will not allow this in my life."

It is always, next time..the NEXT offense..no wait, the NEXT one..and boundaries move and shift and cease to exist.

My personal bias regarding OC is precisely that.

I think though that what I see being played out, and advice that encourages this is all too common.

Noodle

"Not too many parents are willing to never have any contact with their children. To give up their rights completely."

Noodle,

My H would completely give up his rights in a heartbeat. My H and the ow had a short term affair. She became pregnant within two weeks of meeting him. This I might add was before I informed her that he was married. Their relationship ended 5 weeks later.

There was absolutely NC between the two of them after that fateful 7 weeks. The ow NEVER told my H that she was pregnant. He only found out about the existence of oc when he was served paternity papers 15 months after their relationship ended. Never once did she try to contact him. She went on state aid to have the state do the searching for her. She didn't even try. Hell, I found him in 10 minutes using search engines. I found her in 2.

To my H this child is not really his. Yeah, it's his dna but he has absolutely no connection. How do you have a connection with some child you didn't know existed, certainly didn't want and now see as representative of what you did wrong? The last thing in the world my H wants is a relationship with the oc. I may be being presumptuous but it's my opinion that the ow doesn't want him involved either hence her decision to not inform him of her pregnancy.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that these cases are situational. It really depends on the specifics.

I would like to add that I would never, ever subject my children to the ow/oc drama. It is a line I've drawn firmly in the sand and will NOT cross. Everyone has boundaries and those are mine.

Cryn

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Crynsomuch ]</small>

Noodles,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have my full agreement. That is not the point though. Cases such as this are the exception.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps, but probably NOT as much as YOU think, given that it is estimated that roughly 10% of babies are NOT fathered by the person who thinks they are the father. I am betting a lot more suspect than let on. Further, a worthy goal might be to up this percentage of people that do make it. It however takes the efforts of both parties and it is NOT without pain, that is for sure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A BS who is in full awareness of themselves and their goal, seeing an opportunity and embracing it..that's the stuff that Myths are made of.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not myths Noodle, just happy endings. You have posters on this thread who have done it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A WS who repents fully and makes a full turnaround and earns their way back into being regarded as a person of integrity.

Ditto. Priceless.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed, and as for the innocent child? I think the child may be easier, if the marriage can be restored. It truely takes what AD described on the part of both parties. But, when it happens it is indeed "priceless".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet, not what is happening. Not usually. The opportunity isn't taken. Neither are in possesion of that awareness and perseverance.

When I read, what I see are broken people. Not broken in a healthfull broken will sort of way..but a dysfunctional broken spirit sort of way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and your point is that no one should try because many or some fail? Given that when people come here and we don't know them, should we just say "dump the bum/bumess" and not encourage them to try if they can? I don't think so. Because neither you nor I can tell who has the strength, the partner, and the will to do it IF ONLY someone had encouraged them and shown them that it is possible. We don't know do we? We don't even know it about ourselves.

Look at the number of posters that come here and say "I always side if my spouse cheats, it is over." And yet here they are trying to rebuild the marriage, and often successfully. I would have said the samething before I found this site.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People who have lost the will and ability to say "No, I will not allow this in my life."

It is always, next time..the NEXT offense..no wait, the NEXT one..and boundaries move and shift and cease to exist.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! but Noodle, the idea here is to offer them ways to say yes and influence the outcome. And after they have tried this, they are encouraged to look at the DATA, which is the spouses response to their efforts. Then they are encouraged to go to plan B which leads to the end of the A, or the end of the marriage. I don't see weakness in this. It is taking their reticence to act and giving them a path to act that can lead to several outcomes. BUT the operative word is ACT, not sit in denial that something must be done.

The idea is to give strength to those that don't have it, so that eventually they can act in a manner that suits them best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My personal bias regarding OC is precisely that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Noodle, think you confuse the concept of "allow" in ones life, with the decision making process of "addressing" what has happened in ones life. Theoretical boundaries are often supplanted by reality, and thus one sees the boundaries move some once reality has entered. That does not mean they are weak, or defenseless, or hopeless. It means they are confronted with something they thought would NEVER happen, and it did. So one can simply RUN from it, or one can stop and think about it before making a decision.

I think you are advocating RUN no matter what. I that correct?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think though that what I see being played out, and advice that encourages this is all too common.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you might be misinterpreting what is being played out. Advice that encourages people to think before they act is good. Advice that points out that there are other possible solutions is good. Advice that encourages someone to do all they can to change a situation before leaving it is good, because when they do leave they have NO regrets. Advice that encourages learning what happened and why BEFORE making a decision is good.

Those are the things I believe. I have in fact advised people here to really consider leaving the situation they are in. I am not marriage at all costs. I agree with Harley that more marriages and families could be restored, rebuilt than currently are IF people would take the time to try and rebuild, or recover the marriage BEFORE they decide to leave it. Not all will make it, but some will.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL