No. Of that you cannot be sure. Only time will tell, and I think she does. May not be the kind of love that is right out there in the open from the start. May not be what movies would have us believe. But sometimes you grow to love a person by being with him. By seeing that he is strong, capable and not willing to take a second chair to OM.

I think that you may be surprised. I think that it will take time, but I think it will happen.

And I'm not saying to hang your hat on it, because that would defeat the purpose. She needs to feel your loss, and the role that SHE had in creating that loss.

You have been clear with her that this is ALL because of her affair and nothing else, right? Well she is broken, perhaps, but she is not stupid. She can put 2 and 2 together and come up with AD left me because I am not being a good and faithful wife, because I am hurting him.

Have faith AD. I have enough faith for the both of us in your sitch, and I have followed it for a very long time now.

If the worst comes to pass, then your DD will have a dad that is whole.

A DAD THAT IS WHOLE! Can you even begin to imagine the significance in this?

How many of us have had A DAD THAT IS WHOLE?

Whole AD.

If you can pull this off and become all that you were meant to be, and I don't mean in deeds, I mean in self. Can you imagine what that will mean to your DD. To her life?

You hang in there. You are doing the right thing. It is time for your WW to quit being a victim and face that she is now in charge of her destiny, and her marriage.

Weaver,

Thanks again for the encouraging words.

Update:

I think I "reported" that W and I had a discussion about when she should get an apartment. She knows where she wants to live, and I think it is a good choice. She wanted me to go with her to talk to them, but I told her she needed to go first - try to do it by herself - and collect the information. After that, I would do whatever was required to get her out of the house, I mean to get her into an apartment.

She did that today, and reported that they would not let her sign a lease because even with the CS and temp alimony, her income was too low. They will, however get her into an aparment if she pre-pays 6 months rent. I more or less knew that already.

So, now we (I) have to decide whether to try to sell the house with her in it, or lend her the money to pre-pay the rent - with the understanding that it will be repaid out of her part of the equity in the house. It would be much easier financially if she can stay in the house - but is so incredibly messy - that it would be hard to sell. I would have to hire a maid to come once or twice a week just to keep things in some semblance of order to be able to show it.

Since I left - only a week ago - DD has gotten some kind of "oil pastels" on the carpet in the master BR - the one room I completely cleaned. I had told W that I wanted to lock that room so it wouldn't get dirty - and she was very hurt that I said that - but here we are - probably having to replace that carpet.

It may be that the pre-paid rent is worth it to get a faster sale on the house. No matter whether we D or not, we will sell that house. It is too big for us. We don't need it.

I have already agreed to drive W to Atlanta for her citizeship interview in July. Should I tell her that I will keep DD and stay home instead?

I'm just rambling here.

-AD

AD,
I’ve managed to trudge through most of this thread, enough I think to get some small feel for where you are, so for what it’s worth, here are a few observations from a man who has been fortune enough to have won this ridiculous game of infidelity and marriage retention.

1. My first thought is about myself surprise surprise! LOL I won…what? I’m still married but wonder if I made the right choice. And I love my wife and I’m sure that in her own way she also loves me…but…I kind of think that her having me is more important to her then her having me because she loves me. So who won? She or I? And is it important? If I cared more about where she was most of the time, what she was doing and who she was doing it with this would be an easier question to answer for me. My point to you is, think long and hard about what you may end up winning before deciding that the prize is worth playing the game.
2. As for you my friend, if you’re going to play this dumb game then logic dictates that you play to win…cause this just ain’t the kind of game you play for fun! And soooooo, can you look at yourself and say that this is what you’re doing?
3. My feeling about you is that you’re ambivalent about the whole mess right now. You haven’t really decided that you want to be with this person any more. Oh yes, she is a habit, you love the fond memories, you love her as the mother of your child, but what about her? Are you passionate about her? Can you look at her and say that you’ve made every effort to convince her that she is the only woman you want in your world? I think not. And so she tells you that she wonders f she can trust you…which is not a stupid question considering…
4. And so you’ve been playing this game but mostly just staying in it…or maybe because playing it is something that you feel obligated to do…given your vows etc. But really AD you ain’t been playing for keeps so why would you expect anything to be different that it already is.

You know, if you were to once walk up to your WW and put your two hands on her face…kiss her as if you were about to die from the need of it and tell her that loosing her and her love is more then you can bare to stand and still breath and believe it…and then tell her that she is never to speak to or see the OM ever again or you will not be responsible for what may happen after…and then tell her that what ever happened before is history and all that matters is what happens going forward…and make her believe that you believe…do you think that she might take you more seriously? Or for that matter if you were to just makes her any overt show of passion, of wanting or needing…doing it your way (WHAT EVER THAT WAY IS) …but by just doing it!
5. But instead you’ve decided to plan B…which is for you, after all the disappointment and pain you’ve been living with is probably the correct decision…so if this is what you’ve decided to do why haven’t you done it?! Instead you’ve elected to be the little boy who puts his toe in the water to test it’s temperature! Again…no desiciveness, no passion…no message sent! Instead you’re posting about the pain of having to say NO! AD! Will you please grow up? Yukk! If you’re going to stand tall and say “it’s enough!” “Stop or these are the consequences of your acts” then don’t just say it! Do it, mean it and make her understand it! Anything less is just plain dishonest! Worse yet, it places blame where it doesn’t belong…on her. You’re tormenting this girl with your indecisiveness. If you want to wake her up then you have to lay on the lumber and make it hurt. Pain is a great *wake-her-upper!* Let her wonderful OM give her some financial support. This is reality! Let her live it for a change and let her have the chance to grow up. If you love her, at least do that much for her.
6. Last thought…promise cross my heart! Stop giving her foggy, stupid, arguments credibility by debating them with her. Just stop! Tell her the way you need it to be and tell her that you’re not interested in anything that went on before…that you want her cheating to stop and you want her to prove that she has stopped and you want to engage in serious marriage therapy and if she wants to stay married then so do you…but you won’t every again listen to any more of her whining and lying and that you expect her to love and care for you like you’re the most important thing in her life and that this is the way you want to live with her and you will accept nothing less! And then my boy, go dark! So dark that good G-D almighty himself couldn’t find his way in the blackness! And tell her that there will be NO “buts, let’s see about its, or any other equivocation or delay.” Tell her that this is the way it has to be or it’s truly over, and damn it you better mean it! More to the point, you better be prepared to SHOW her you mean it!

So there you have it. Coach’s most unsolicited 2 Cents worth 10 Cent wisdom. But AD, while considering my indelicate diatribe, try to remember this…I have won this game! I have won it big time! I am the king of her hill and the lord of her manner LOL, LMAO! To know how big my win is, you would have to know my wife! LOL

That it’s no big deal to me is my problem…that I don’t know if I’m really doing you a favor here is and always will remain your problem…but only if you win.
Coach

Coach, AD:

"Tell her the way you need it to be and tell her that you’re not interested in anything that went on before…that you want her cheating to stop and you want her to prove that she has stopped and you want to engage in serious marriage therapy and if she wants to stay married then so do you…but you won’t every again listen to any more of her whining and lying and that you expect her to love and care for you like you’re the most important thing in her life and that this is the way you want to live with her and you will accept nothing less! "

What's amazing 2 ol' 2long (and will soon be 2 AD), is just how long it takes some of us 2 internalize this truth. We fight it kicking and screaming, 2th and nail... ...for THREE AND A HALF YEARS in some certain people's cases (ol' 2long bends down, unties his gawdy left Converse Allstar, then reties it, studies the result for several tense moments).

But it takes as long as it takes. No less, no more. Coach's point is well taken, 2. His warning.

And so I (and you, 2, AD), have 2 find out how 2 get past this stalemate with compassion and empathy, 2 whatever state lies beyond. I called a lawyer 2day. I thought it was going 2 be so hard, but it was easy as cake (pun intended). It's not the same as a consultation or filing, but I'm less afraid of those steps, should they become necessary 2 take (and I'm betting they will, and very soon).

I love my W, but I don't enjoy the pain I'm still feeling. I worry that I might feel the same way coach says he does if I "win" this thing, but wait 2long 2 claim my prize. So, I've got a responsibility 2 myself, my W, and my kids 2 deal with this now, already, so we can all live less unhappy lives for the next several decades.

-ol' 2long

Hi AD,

ASIDE:
HEY, does anybody have a quick answer to a tax question? If we are D'ed this year, do we file as married (since we were married part fo the year), or separately. It would be cheaper to file as married.

We got married in December, and I was able to file as married that year. What is the rule? Oh wow, what if a person were married to two different people within the same year? The rule may be "if you were married on the last day of the year, you can file as married". That would prevent any confusion wrt which of the people you were married to you should file jointly with.


You file as whatever you are on the last day of the year. That IS the rule. That's why you filed as M for the year that you got married in December. You will file as "single" if you get D this year.

svb

AD

coach has basically told you what I was going to say today ...read it carefully, think about it, ...this is on top of the professional help I think is required BUT it really is the beginning ...or the ending ...and to a certain extent its your choice entirely because I think she wants to be with you but is VERY frightened that if she gives EVERYTHING of herself you'll go away .... you have to admit you've been a bit wishy washy over all this time ...consider what you want ..no hurry to end things unless you WANT that.

*pokes AD with a stick* hey you guys I think he twitched...he might still be alive.....

Hi AD,

I just wanted to get back to you about my last post.I didn't read the above posts(too long for me to cope with today) so I will hope that I don't repeat anything.

I read your updates and I understand your WW's past.I still think you should let her go and allow her to crash and burn or grow and thrive.Whether or not that is with the OM is anyone's guess but for YOU and this marriage,it's not working as is.OM has to go.There is no question about it.And what comes to mind is the serenity prayer.Do you know it? You cannot change the decisions or outcomes of those decisions that your WW makes but you can control how you want your life to go given all the circumstances that have been thrown at you.

Like I said before,Plan B is a great time to explore a lot of things.And it also is the next logical step for your WW to undergo.She was very young when married.She has had a very difficult childhood.Many choices were made *for her.Allow her to make her own and see where they carry her.They may take her away but they also may take her right back to you without OM in the picture anymore.But regardless,the way the current situation exists now,no one should have to live that way.To me it is the most loving and adult choice you could make right now.Letting go of a loved one is very difficult because you are sacrificing your own happiness for them by not standing in their way.It's not weakness,or defeat.It's acceptance and love.If she doesn't want to be with you fully,in the way a wife and woman should be then don't try to force what may not be there.
Does this make sense?

I told my WH,as hard as it was: "If you want to lead your life somewhere other than with me and our family then I am letting you go.I love you and I wanted nothing more than to have a long,loving happy marriage for the rest of our lives and for our children but I will not stand in your way".Well,he broke down when I said that(may not be verbatim)but ultimately,he did feel the need to see where these choices were going to lead him.It hurt like he**.

But I was right in my decision.I felt that if he stayed for any other reason than for the fact that he loved me and wanted to be with me( and I told him this too)then it was not what I wanted.I didn't want him to stay because of financial issues,the children,out of duty,out of guilt,etc.He had to want it as much as I or my feeling was we had no marriage,not the way I wanted it to be.Even though I was willing to work on getting him back to that,I also felt he was too far gone.He had changed his values,beliefs and morals all in the span of a month and that was his new way of life.One in which I would not be a part of anymore.I couldn't hold onto something that was slipping through my fingers like sand.It was so so difficult.But I knew I had to do it.He never came back so he is living the life he wants now.I am left to go on trying to deal with my emotions that still cling to me except that I don't think I love my WH anymore.I truly don't.I love what used to be and that is what I still am trying to get over some days.ugh.

Well,that's enough for now.

O

Wow! So many visitors!

I'm touched.

Coach, 2long, SIHW, O'girl, svb1, AW,

Thanks. I'll be back after I've had a chance to think.

You know, I think I don't do very well at letting people know that I read what they have posted. The other day I was driving around on my mower thinking of something somebody wrote on my thread - and realized that I hadn't even responded to it - so they wouldn't know I even noticed it.

So, I have noticed. And I intend to respond, but I also intend to work this morning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BTW. After today, I should have internet at home, so you may see more of me again - but on the other hand, I have a lot of work to do to get the house set up - so I'll try to keep my internet use to a minimum;

It's been interesting to live the last 10 days with nothing in the house but a radio for entertainment or distraction. Maybe I should have kept it that way.

-AD

Hi AD -

Just wanted to let you know that I am here, too. Excellent advice and input you are getting, and you already know my position on this whole thing. Getting out from under the oppression of OM is liberating, but hard.

Keep the faith that you are doing the right thing.

Georiga

Ms. Seagull (jls),

I entiredly missed this post that you made last week. NOW, I've read it.


... and I'll reply.

But first, I wanted to comment on another post you made to which I didn't reply. (Boy, who would believe that I actually have read the Gottman's book "relationship cure" - a key point of which is that the worst thing you can do is ignore people.)

You commented that a miniature horse is a bad idea for a child. I'll ask you about horses and pony's and miniature horses before I do anything. You can explain everything then. OK. Right now, I don't even have a fence, nor money to rebuild my shop - and a stable or a horse/pony/miniature is pretty far down the list of things to buy/pay for.

Responding in reverse to your comments...

My wife is Russian - more or less. That is, her heart and soul, language and cuture are Russian. Her family speaks russian at home and she was educated in russian-speaking schools. However, most of her growing up was in a russian-speaking part of Ukraine, and she is a Ukrainian citizen. (She loathes the Ukrainian language - mostly as a backlash against the forced ukrainianisation of the Russian-speaking parts of Ukraine.) But, she was not born in Ukraine and has never lived in Russian. Her body (which contains her Russian her mind and soul) comes from somewhere else - as she was internationally adopted at about the age of 6. That precise place, I'll leave out of this discussion. She is rather conflicted about her identity and where her "home" is - if she has one.

Visitation is coming along. DD was with me (alone) for 7 or 8 hours on Saturday. I'm hoping for an overnight on Wed or Thursday night. It's supposed to be Wednesday, but W has no classes on Friday and she (W) would be less stressed if she didn't have to take DD to preschool immediately after getting her back from me on Thursday morning. W is very resistant to the overnights. Plan B is not really happening now.

Re your H, trust, remembering only the bad. It's amazing how alike all we poor humans are. Men and women from very different backgrounds and experiences have such similar responses to life.

Thanks for posting and again I'm sorry that I overlooked or failed to comment on your postings.

-AD (tE)

Coach,

First, thanks very much for trudging through my thread. It's a mess - thread and life both.

You are quite correct (of course you are <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) to note that as an MB plan-runner, I stink. You didn't say it that way, so I will.

For thousands of years before Wilard Harley was born, people were being married - and they will continue to do something like that for thousands of years after the Harley clan is forgotten. Now, I do believe that the theories espoused by the Harleys have a lot of truth in them and the methods and plans recommened by MB are sometimes (even often) effective, but realizing their limits - specifically, "Plan B" with small children is almost impossible. For a long time, I did not even consider it. It is only when I was ready for D, that I considered plan B, and I'm not really saying that I'm even trying to be in plan B right now - but I will begin to try. I know that's not the kind of decisive action you quite commendably advise, but it's where I am - my reality.

Just yesterday I was thinking that I really don't want her back - that I am relieved to be ... I really don't like to use the word, but "rid" of her.

That is coming a long way down from what I felt - and what I earnestly desired and resolved to do (despite what I felt) for most of the last 7 years.

I'll get back to you with more in a bit, but first I need to post an update to establish the context. (and I still need to work - and meet the cable/phone/internet installer at "between 12 and 2").

-AD

Whatever I did this weekend it was almost, but not quite entirely, unlike "Plan B".

Friday afternoon, I went by and took my computer from "our" house. W was not at home when I arrived and I hoped to leave before she returned, but didn't make it. She came back from the pool with DD - wearing a swim suit of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> W was disapointed to see the computer go, because it's better than the other computer. Before I left, I made sure that the other computer was still on the internet and able to access W's email.

About 9pm, I was out mowing with the lights on. (Whoever put lights on riding mowers was a friend of mankind! It's so much nicer to mow after dark in the cool of the night.) W drove up in my driveway. I stopped, got off. I was all sweaty and dirty, of course. W said she had been to the bookstore (with DD, as always) and just stopped by on the way home. She came inside, said she hadn't eaten all day. I offered leftovers, which she ate. I, meanwhile, ate a salad I fixed and played with DD. So, W got her "fix" of me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Stupid of me to let that happen, but how to I tell my wife, the mother of my child to go away - when the child is with her?! What kind of message does that give the child when I tell her mother to go away? I know, it is only my weak excuses. They left - I don't know when - perhaps 10:30. I went back to my mowing until almost midnight, I think.

Then, I did some small plumbing adjustment, and a small HVAC adjustment - continuing the process of tuning up my house - and went to bed at 3am.

Saturday, I was up at 9, and about noon - W brought DD over to spend time with me, but before she left, she came in and got another "fix". She brought a couple of boxes of books and unloaded them into my bookcases.

I promised to get DD home at 7:30 - and got her home at 7:25. W called once during that time, and I let DD talk to her (not me). When I picked up DD, I gathered more of my stuff - and put my laundry in at "our" house. I left, saying I was going to the office and would be back by to pick up the laundry. W said she would transfer it to the dryer. I stopped back by there at 9:30. DD was in bed, but not yet asleep. The laundry seemed to have been moved to the dryer as I came up the front walk - was not near dry. I fiddled around gathering things - and, although we had minimal interaction, W seemed pleased to have me in the house. I took one load of laundry and put the 2nd in the dryer and left. W was asking me to stay "another 10 minutes" to get it. It was already 10:30 - so I told her she could bring it to me after church on Sunday (another mistake).

Sunday morning, my neighbor was doing some yard work on the boundary between our properties and I felt obliged to pitch in, since it really was more my problem than his - so I was out in the yard when I should have been getting ready for church - and yet again didn't attempt to go find myself a church (a critical need for me). When W drove up, I was still in the yard pruning some things. She didn't have the laundry with her. Both W and DD were in church dresses and looking lovely. Because DD wanted to play, W said she would take her home to change clothes and come back - with my laundry. I said OK, but W didn't leave - came inside. Again, how can I say, with my child there "go away!"? So, W says "you need a shower". Yeah, it was hot, and I was out doing yard work.

AAAARGHHHH! WHY AM I SO UNABLE TO DO WHAT I NEED TO DO?!

I showered, began to play with DD. W started saying "let's go somewhere and eat. You're all cleaned up now, so you might as well....". I almost, almost didn't go. But I did - in W's car.

Lunch was lousy.
* DD was whining for chicken nuggets (She prefers the cheapest kind - made from ground chicken - from a fast-food place). So, we didn't go to lunch for DD.
* I ate some stuff I really should avoid - and didn't enjoy being there anyway. So, it was not for me that we went to the restaurant.
* Guess who it was for. Yeah, for WW.

So, she got another fix of me - another thing we used to do - going out to eat - another reasurance that I'm still there (sometimes) for her. YOU FOLKS DON'T HAVE TO TELL ME THIS IS NOT PLAN B! I KNOW IT.

But then, it got worse.

W starts driving, not back to my house, but to her house. I'm a captive, riding in her car. I objected, but not strongly. I asked her to take me home. She said "well, you've got to get your laundry anyway. We'll just go change clothes and get your laundry. You can pack some more books while we're there." AARGHHH! Yeah, I let her do it to me. She packed several boxes of books while I gathered some more kitchen items. We all three came back to my house - but on the way SHE STARTED ASKING FOR MONEY FOR THE DENTIST AGAIN! I said "no". She insisted "You will pay!" - while angrily unloaded boxes of books at my house.

Finally she left - and as she left I said "You have the gall to crawl out of
another man's bed and come ask me for money!" Then I closed the door.

Of course, she called about 8 times that afternoon. I answered twice. I asked her not to call. Once I listened to her for 18 minutes.

OK guys, you can beat me now.

-AD

My internet, phone and cable were installed this afternoon. So, tonight, I can post to MB from home again!

Now, since I had a 3 hour "lunch", I had better work.

FGG

Thanks for posting. I'll reply to you (and everybody else) later.

-AD

"OK guys, you can beat me now."

Clearly, there's no need!

-ol' 2long

Before I get back to replying to everybody who wrote to me this morning (or last night), I'll update a bit.

Today - or rather since yesterday afternoon, I have neither spoken to nor seen my lovely wife. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That's more like Plan B.

This evening, I wasn't feeling very enthusiastic - mostly because I've been running low on sleep lately and just dragging through the day. I took a long "lunch" (3 hours) to meet the cable installer, so I worked late to half-way make up for it. Or rather I should say I stayed at the office late. <sigh> Work often eludes me lately.

Now I have a land-line phone - but nobody knows the number. Thus, if it rings, it will be a wrong number. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Whoever it is, I'll talk to them! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />(Actually, I sent the number to my boss and the HR director, but they have never called me, and it makes a better story to say that nobody knows it.)

After a quick bite, I went out shopping to fix up my DD's room in "my" house. Just now, it has sheer white curtains with green vines and purple flowers on them - really just perfect, if I say so myself - and some sheets and quilt etc are also in place. I want to paint the bed, but it's too late tonight. I have pink high-gloss paint.

I plan to offer WW that we delay the first overnight until Thursday night rather than the standard wednesday. That will give the paint an extra day to dry on the bed if I paint it on Tuesday - and time to add a few more touches. W
WW should be willing to agree, since that will be good for her as she has no classes on Friday and won't have to take DD to preschool immediately after getting her back from me. Maybe I should stop right now and go paint it.

Fixing up DD's room was a very pleasant activity. I bought some new extra-super thick oversized pink-trimmed towels for the bath she will use also. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There is a lot more to do there, but it is a nice start. W will be jealous.

-AD

Coach,

I've been thinking all day about your post to me.

I'm going to answer your 6 points out of order.

3 & 4) The question of passion.

To be perfectly honest, I can live without her. Further, I don't feel any particular impulse to grab her and kiss her. It's hard to stay on fire when somebody is constantly pouring cold water on you. There was a time when I would have been pleased to grab and kiss her at the twinkling of an eye, but I have for so long been pushed away, shrugged off, etc. so many times, that I have no interest in subjecting myself to more of it.

I've come to even consider it unlikely that any other woman would treat me differently, which is sad.

2,5 & 6) To "B" or not to "B", that is the question.

Gimble was actively advising me for awhile, until I bailed from MB - or at least said I was, and since then he has avoided me like the plague. He advised against plan B in my case, and advised instead that I take my W out dancing and such. Well, I think he was on the mark to a great extent. I think that would have worked. To reveal just how close he was, I can say that when we were in Orlando a few weeks ago, W actually wondered aloud if there was some place we could go dancing. Keep in mind that this would be dancing with a 4-year-old in tow - and that we never have been dancing before - and that I, at least don't know how. But Gimble I think had it right. Plan B, almost certainly won't "work" - if by "work" you mean that it will bring my w crawling back and begging for me not to D her.

So, am I really in Plan D? My hopes are down to a 5% chance of creating a real marriage with WW. I don't say "saving the marriage", because there is not much to save - little that I want to save. W has never treated me well since we married. No matter what I did for her, the best I could expect was a kind word now and then - no give and take - just an occational thanks for the giving.

Gimble also recommended that I ask WW to do things for me. That was probably a good idea too.

But, Coach, I'm resolved to keep a tighter grip on the plan. I'm in Plan B for now. I've been reading and rereading the MB plans for more than 4 years. I understand that Plan B doesn't do anything without a great Plan A. I don't think I've done that. The idea is to shine the light brightly, then turn it off and go into the dark cave. The contrast is the thing you want. I understand perfectly what is needed, but I have not done it. You are right. It's my fault. But now, having moved out, I'm stuck with whatever plan A I did - and to make the maximum contrast, I have to keep up the steel walls of plan B.

AND, I've got send the letter. I've told her the essential plan B message, but a letter is something that can be re-read - that she can refer to again and again.

See a later post for my response to point #1.

Octobergirl takes AD by the shirt collar and shakes him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You cannot be seriously thinking of going into a Plan A are you? At this juncture? I am not going to beat up on you AD but need you be reminded how much your WW still TAKES from you every inch you give? That last post above was a clear reminder.The PBL is what is supposed to show your feelings regarding the WW in how she can come back into your life the appropriate way and possibly have a better marriage than ever.You can write all you want about how you would like things to go between you and her.But repeated interactions of the sort you described erodes any chance of getting back with her on a positive note.What you both will remember is the continued arguments and hopelessness without a plan in place.Like I said before,you cannot waffle.She will use that against you.It's clear AD.She has one choice to make.It's not simple or easy but it must be made.You or OM.She cannot have both men in her life and until OM leaves for good,it's up to you to put up and *maintain those boundaries that are important to you and your family.

I just don't think you've turned that corner yet.You are almost there but I think that by us talking to you,you will get there.The alternative is to still keep allowing this situation to go on as is and it's my impression it's not doing anyone any good.Well,maybe WW since she gets to be with you here and there.But for now, it's about your choices,not WW's,as to what YOU will do.How will you steer your life given these obstacles?

O

Hi, AD.

I am not ignoring you, I just can't help you. Sit down, guard your head a bit, and let me briefly tell you why. I mean no disrespect, but I am going to tell you what I believe is the truth.

Plan A or Plan B at this juncture in your relationship with your wife, is immaterial UNLESS, you actually do what you say you will do.

What your wife needs to see from you is consistent manliness. All of her actions (at least the ones you have described to me) emanate from a lack of boundaries. With her background, she is as desperate as a child for loving boundaries.

She needed you to provide that for her. It really doesn't matter if that is what you wanted to contribute to the marriage or not, it is what SHE needed from it.

What she will respect from you, is you doing anything, consistently, that you have said you would do, be it Plan A, Plan B, Plan D or breaking the other man's nose and telling him that if he ever sniffs around your wife again, you will break both of his knees.

She doesn't respect you, AD. You can't tell her to respect you. You earn it.

Please go look up the word 'constancy'. That is what your wife needed from you.

God bless,
Gimble

Thanks for posting.

You are probably right - and in any case it wouldn't hurt for me to be more decisive, whether or not it has any affect on my STBXW.