My head was focused on my goal before last night. I had retained a lawyer and filing day is supposed to be next week. The plan was to wait until next month when I had the kids to serve her. I've been trying to Plan A and will continue to do so for the next month. I will invite her to come down for a week and help the kids get transitioned, see some family, and give me ideas for redecorating our DD's room. If she doesn't come, I would serve her after I get back home.

I need some advice on a few decisions.

1) My DC will be with me for the summer. I am weighing the pros & cons of forcing WW back. If the DC will be here period, should I give WW another month after getting DC before serving her? It is 6 months for residency in Arkansas. The DC will have broken this by returning home. I am getting a lot of advice to not force WW back and let her find her own way back. Some say she needs a shock to see how serious this is. OPINIONS?


2) I bought WW a beautiful charm bracelet for Mother's Day and the most perfect ring for when I went up for my DD's kindergarten graduation. I already have the bracelet with engraving and everything. My female friends and the 180 List say DO NOT BUY GIFTS. I thought about sending it mail just from DC. YES or NO?

Did I say or do something wrong? hello...


Anyways, WW and I talked for about 30 min. over the weekend. No talk of our M. Talked about what we've been doing. She told me she lost weight. I told her the same. She couldn't believe I now weigh the same as her. Her loss, she says, is from stress. I told her about me going out to the gym and starting a new nutrition plan. She said she would really like to see what I look like now. "You will," I said!

She told me she went to a club with her married friend without telling OM and Friend's H. She said they would be sooo mad. Then she corrected herself and said, well OM probably wouldn't give a crap, but best friend's H would.

Ok my thoughts, tell me if I'm reading too much into this...

1)If OM's even somewhat serious about WW, wouldn't he "give a crap" if she's out clubbing?

2)If she's serious about him, would she go out clubbing behind his back? (i know, like she didn't do a lot more behind mine)

3)Why make sure I know OM doesn't give a crap? WW drops OM's name (to upset me/make me jealous?) and then backtracks to make sure I know. Why? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Anyways, the rest of the conversation was very decent. Thoughts anyone?

Don't know enough to be of any use, but I wish you all the best.

Hi L&L,

Sorry its a bit slow at this time, but it doesn't mean that people aren't interested!

It does sound to me as though you are doing a very good job of Plan A on your own, despite the fact that your W has taken the kids and she is a long distance away. I just wanted to tell you how impressed I am by how calmly, rationally and intelligently you seem to be handling what must be an extremely stressful and difficult situation.

About the D, does your W know you are thinking of filing in order to secure the safety of your kids? It will certainly be difficult to file for D while still sending her the message of how much you love her and want to reconcile. Maybe you can do it with a Plan B type letter? Have you looked at them? Also with always being calm and courteous as you have been, and by putting pressure on the A by not financially supporting her and by exposing to everyone.

It sounds like you have a very good ally in your MIL and she will keep you informed. Is there anyone else you can expose to? Your friends? Her friends?

Also about the present, I would probably hold off with giving her expensive gifts right now because she might not be able to appreciate it yet.
I think you are doing really well with your Plan A. I think your MIL might be right that if you keep it up, and don't enable the A in any way, it may not be too much longer.

L&L

I have read all this thread and I am still not sure what you are asking us for.

Your WW has taken the kids and moved away to Arkansas and is seeing OM, involving him in yoru kids lives, right?

OK , I'll only advise from personal experience. I busted my WW before she moved out with the kids. Three days before their plan in fact. So I have no personal xperience of getting my kids BACK.

But some stuff I know.

1. You have to calm yourself down. Your mind is producing an unceasing stream of panic and fear right now. Panic and fear prevents your intelligence from working. You have to be frosty headed at this time. Treat the sit like its an important work project. Don't fear that you will push WW further away. She is GONE br'a, you can only win her back, not lose her more.

Bravery wins back more WSs than panic and capitulation does by a long long margin.

2. I agree with Gimble that getting your kids back and away from the malign influence of OM is more important than anything else now. I a divorce is the only way to do this, then do it.
If, however, you do not truly want your kids back without your WW, don't play with them. Only you know how you truly feel in this, but I know 'the board' have assumed custody is prime amongst objectives with other posters and this has not been so.

have you ASKED your WW if you can have your kids for the weekend ? Have you told her how much you miss them, that you're their daddy and that you have done no wrong to deserve not seeing them ?

If you DO get them for a weekend outside any legal agreement you should keep them as long as teh kids are happy with that. Yes, it will make WW very angry indeed, but you will have your kids back.

Personally I planned to kill OM in my sit if Squid had taken the kids to be with him. Anyone here knows that is a fact, not tough talk. Thats not advice BTW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

3. Stop gestures - the "not answering the phone to make her worry what you're up to" is lame.

You should ACTUALLY be building yourself a life you enjoy right now, so if she calls you may WELL be doing something more interesting than listening to her foggy ramblings.
PORH worked wonderfully for me - my transparency made my Squid embarassed to lie bare facedly to me after a while. Be honest with your WW.

4. Once you get your kids back, however you do it, you should plan B her. Show her wht life without you and the benefits of you is like. That means no kids, no financial support, no conversation, no shared history, no assurance.

I often wonder how I would have fared if Squid had left me with the kids. Certainly a different outcome. Probably prison for me.

STOP PANICKING ! you have LOST your WW and your kids. You can't lose them more by being calm, brave and doing the right thing.

All blessings

Thank you very much Smur and NSYN. Sometimes it's hard to know if you're doing the right thing when you're neck deep in it.

b0b, thank you very much for your advice. I am sorry if I wasn't clear and I will try to calm myself. What you said about bravery makes sense. She wants a man, not a wimp.

I took Gimble's advice about taking steps to get my DC back. I had no doubt about doing that. I guess I was just concerned with timing. Most importantly, I wanted advice on how to avoid LBing while doing this. I wanted advice on the Mother's Day gift too.

I spoke with my lawyers and they suggested I do not snatch the kids unless I feel there is no other way to retrieve them. They have advised I wait until May when I pick them up for the summer before I serve her D papers. WW has no clue I have these rights.

The D was filed officially today. It makes me sick to the exact opposite of what I want.

The past few days have had some nice conversations with my WW. She has started to call me now. She'll use the "your daughter wanted to call you" excuse, but sometimes I never even talk to her during the conversation. It's pretty transparent. It sounds like she's getting a little tired of her sit. She's not having as much fun ashe thought. She sounds depressed to hear of all the things I'm out doing and ways I'm keeping busy.

I told her I was trying to get 5th row Rockets tickets and she went nuts. She said she wishes she could go too. She said, "You won't think of me at all will you?" She is constantly concerned that I'm in a hurry to get off the phone with her. The other night I went to my little sister's softball game, an activity my W loved to watch.

She called me back and wanted me to do the play-by-play for thirty minutes. She said, "Ooh, I wish I could be there with you!" We had fun. She made a wierd comment I didn't understand.

"You better hope I don't want to come home."

What the hell does that mean? I continued on with the conversation. She sounded more depressed and missing home by the minute. Any thoughts on what the comment means?

Hi, Left.

Bob and others have given you excellent advice.

On getting your kids back, stick to what your lawyers are telling you. I don't know the laws of your state, and I am not a lawyer, but I believe you are on the right track using a divorce to get your kids back.

Step two is attempting to get custody. I am sure that you love your wife, and as long as you are not an abuser, substance or otherwise, then there is little excuse for what your wife has done. I hope that you are working with your attorney in order to establish the basis for custody.

No matter what your wife promises, see this through until the children's safety is LEGALLY ensured.

Once your kids are safe, then you can see to the marriage. Right now, they are the most important responsibility that you have.

You simply must be their hero. Calm and strong, working a plan.

Gob bless,
Gimble

I really want to thank you guys for being here for me. You have been a great source of strength. I have found a new church, Lakewood with Joel Osteen. Some of you have probably seen him on TV. Getting back to God has calmed me and given me strength and confidence in getting through this crisis.

Well the past two weeks have been filled with conversations. WW mainly calls me now, often very late at night. She often tells me stories of her endeavors to make me jealous and hurt. She gives me slight clues in every conversation that she is not dead serious about OM. I tried to go up or get her to come down for Mother's Day with no success. She told me she had plans with OM & our kids.

I told her I would come up anyway with my friend. I was thinking of my buddy, but WW's imagination ran with it and she became insanely jealous. She called and constantly badgered me to tell her who, or at least if it was a woman. I got sucked into this stupid game. I suppose it felt good for her to be the jealous one; for her to be back on her heels worrying about me.

It felt wrong to play games with her, so I emailed her today and told her the complete truth. I didn't actually lie, but I didn't stop her from imagining the worst. That was wrong.

I am still waiting until I get the kids to serve her D papers. Here's my newest question I'm struggling with.

Should I speak to her about what I'm doing after I get the kids? Should I tell her what I will do before I serve her papers or just serve her without warning?

Hi left.

Quote:
===================================
Should I speak to her about what I'm doing after I get the kids? Should I tell her what I will do before I serve her papers or just serve her without warning?
===================================

DO NOT TELL HER YOUR PLANS.

Even Jesus didn't tell his disciples everything he had planned.

Not telling everything you know is not lying.

All the best,
Gimble

Thanks Gimble, that's what I needed to hear.

WW went camping w/OM & DC Mother's Day weekend. She called me today and sounded depressed about the event. She told me things were just "wierd" numerous times, but wouldn't elaborate. Things are "wierd" because they're "wrong"...argh! She was referring to OM, that much was obvious in our conversation. I'm getting the feeling A is about to end. I hope and pray.

Hi, left.

I hope the affair is getting ready to end.

Let me ask you a question. Does your wife know how you feel about the affair? I am wondering why she is telling you about her relationship with the other man.

If you are putting any faith into what she tells you about her relationship, don't. She is cheating, therefore she is lying. You can't have one without the other. Don't trust anything she says, only her actions count. Believe it. It will save you much grief.

As soon as your legal plan for the kids comes into play, make sure that your legal advisors are on board (law enforcement as well) to help you execute the retrieval of your children.

At the moment your plan starts, she will promise you anything. Do not waiver from your plan until your children are safe, and legally in your custody. You can deal with marital issues once that is done. I know I am repeating myself. This is important.

God bless,
Gimble

Gimble,

Yes, I have made my feelings clear about the A. I don't think she views it as an affair. Remember I said we are CLM. We held ourselves out as H&W for the past 6 yrs. Now, it's suddenly not convenient for her, so she says we weren't married. She thinks she left me when she started to have feelings for OM, before a PA developed. She acts as if she's done no wrong. She justifies it with some very wacked-out ideas.

I don't know why she tells me of her A with OM. To make me jealous, to hurt me, to provoke me, to tell me she's moved on from me, to convince herself? I don't know. I'm almost positive she knows the legal options available to me. Why provoke me if she knows what I can do; unless she never thinks I'll stand up to her and do it?

Hi, leftandlost.

I can't tell you what her reasoning is, but the lack of a legally committed relationship does weigh into the equation.

Many people will tell you that the commitment is the same with a common law relationship as it is with an actual marriage. That all sounds pretty good, but in practice, the ideal falls far short of the actual.

In the early 70's, my wife an I lived together for almost two years before we were married. In that time, I had sex with *many* other women. I even did it once with another woman, in our bed. She got really upset about that, and had her own revenge with a guy that I would have thrown gasoline on, even if he was already on fire. After that, she decided that living life my way, wasn't for her, and she left me.

I wised up, straightened up, and eventually won her back. Then we legally married, and that was 29 years ago.

Say what you will, but in my case, I took marriage a lot more serious than living together. Even if my case is extreme, there is likely a lesson there.

I don't know if any of that helps you or not, but there is a possibility, that she wants you to fight for her, or consider her worthy of marriage - or there could be completely different reasons for her underlying issues.

Until you have your kids in a safe environment, and she is free of the other man and of the current chemical influences on her brain, there is little reason to ponder the 'whys'.

One day when you think she is having a lucid moment, you might want to ask her what she thinks about marriage in general, not just between you two. You might be surprised at what she tells you.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi Left

been following your progress and see you are getting good advice. Been off the board for long periods lately just drop in to say hello to a few Mbers - working & being prego is very wearing and I usually fall asleep at the PC if I log on ..lol

I think that formal M was definately a big en for your ww, but it may not be right now.
Though I read lots of hints from her about the A dying from your posts I really dont think much seems to be improving.

Pls undersand that you can only trust what your ww does not what she says. This is really so true. I am amazed at how I completely fooled myself with fantasy .. its hard to believe you can act so stupidly. Most of us ww are about as subtle as a bull in a china shop. We dont fool to many people in reality.

Left just be a bit careful about playing games with ww, yes I bet it does feel great to have her worried she is loosing you, but beware it can do damage. There is a very fine line between allowing her to think you are seeing others & moving on and creating that thought by your not so subtle hints.
Letting her think that may not be so wrong - upsets her balance with OM - but if she finds out that you deliberately fooled her then she will just have another reason to leave you in her mind.
Let HER make the assumptions if she wants to - dont hint & by the same token dont reasssure her either. Just go on talking about your outings regardless of her worries because you know you have nothing to hide.

Unfortunately some of the reason she will make these assumptions and inquiries is that it also allows her to 'justify' her cheating. Therfore dont hide any outing even if its with a female - but be careful of doing that big red lights left - best way is to go with friends. You've been doing that pretty well from what I've read.

As for having to file to protect your child, well that sucks but think on this .... she is already taking your child camping with a stranger with who knows what history good or bad behind him..... thats just not acceptable.

She has made HER choices for now, you are doing the RIGHT thing by not allowing her to impose those choices on your child.
There is simply no excuse for running off with your child to another state and preventing your child and you from having daily even weekly contact. She ran off to be with OM, so be it BUT your child didn't. Your child didn't get that choice.

On this point of protecting your child HAVE NO GUILT OR REGRET, on this point you are RIGHT!!!!

As for your ww what will she feel about it...well I guess she will hate you for a while, promise you the world, say we can work it out etc etc .. but will she leave the OM to come live near her child??? I think its only a 50/50 chance right now as shes still in the fog and wants to have both of you available - you as back up and OM for playing with.

So she may come out of the fog a bit & move back to be with your child - but she may still want to separate etc, but it may give you the chance to really plan A her;

If not - have to say it seems more likely right now - then perhaps its time for plan b, complete dark on your behalf, even to extent of letting your child ring mom not vice versa, etc.

well I'm sure you'll get lots of advice , though you may want to get some good professional advice soon on MC if it
bogs down.

all the best

Gimble,


How long did it take you to win her back? Did you have any children at the time?

Today she sounded depressed again. She called and went on & on. I mainly listened and sounded interested and concerned about what she said. She spoke of jobs she's applied for up there; another indication she has no plans to come back to Houston, whether we get back together or not. She kept me on the phone for quite a while. She seemed like she wanted me to stay for an extra day when I went up to pick up the kids, but dropped it after a little resistance. When I tried to end the conversation because I had to go to the gym with my cousin she seemed agitated.

"Well, I finally get settled so I can really talk to you..and now you have to go!...Ok well fine then."

"We can talk later," I said. "I won't be around later," she replied. I didn't ask why just left it at that. I talked to her for a few minutes more and then ended the conversation first. She still seemed irritated I wasn't stopping everything for her. I hope I didn't miss an opportunity for her to open up to me or something. I think it did more good than bad though. We'll see.

Hi, left.

Quote:
===========================
How long did it take you to win her back? Did you have any children at the time?
===========================

Only a few weeks. Just to be clear, she didn't leave me for another guy, she left me to get away from me and my lifestyle. There were no children at the time.

I don't know what to tell you on the conversation with her, other than give her no indication of your plans. You can Plan A her from a distance, but I am unsure of the effect that will have given the nature of your problem.

Once you, her and the children are in situation that is legally tenable, then you can work on the relationship. Until then, just be kind and strong for your kids.

All the best,
Gimble

UPDATE

WW called me late last night. Told me that things have been wierd with OM for a while now. He is always stressed since he got a new promotion and never has time for her anymore. She in so many words told me she is moving on and doesn't really care about him anymore. I'm not sure why she tells me this.

Then she told me about all the older, drunk men that bug her at the club she frequents (there is only one in the area). She is probably not going to go out clubbing anymore she says. She told this one "cute guy" that she isn't really looking for anything right now. Again, why tell me this?

I hope she's realizing the grass isn't greener on the other side. She apparantly isn't ready to come home yet though. We'll see what happens next week when I go up...

Hi, Left.

She is treating you like the friend and supporter that she wants you to be, not as a lover.

Have you asked her to come back to you?

Get your kids situated, then if you still want to repair your relationship, you and I can have a good talk.

Please keep us posted.

All the best,
Gimble

The past three weeks have been interesting...(sorry this is so long)

5/16 - I suggest W come back with me & DC for a week to help get them settled in. Cold response "Why?" and "the Kids will be fine" and "I have to look for a job!" No luck there. Then, she calls back 30mins. later to tell me she's thinking about flying down 6/10-6/13. Then calls back and wants to bring friend with her. She wants to fly here then take car back.

5/17 - W calls to tell me she's "thinking about things." Says to take it for what it's worth and to not get my hopes too high and that she may need a couple of weeks to sort things out. Asks me if things would be different. I'm getting ready for my mother's wedding so I cut off the conversation.

W calls very late again. Breaks down saying, "I can't hide it anymore...I miss you so much and is lonely. W tells me she loves me, but is so confused because she feels like she loves two people. W then wants to know how things would be different between us. Conversation lasts 3hrs. I notify my lawyer to put serving on hold.

5/20&21 - W goes camping and calls about 15 times while out with friend. Says she is lonely and asks me to come up early to spend time with her. OM shows up second day of camping so I don't hear from her.

5/22 - Before leaving to get DC, W calls to tell me she's nervous and is still so confused. Tells me everything OM does wrong and lists enormous lists of pros for being with me and an enormous list of cons for being w/OM. For some reason she still has some feelings for OM.

5/23-25 - Things between us were great. We were openly affectionate. I kissed her a few times with little to no resistance. She was very flirtatious with me. She told family & friends she was convinced I've changed, that I looked really really good, and that I was doing exactly as she requested by not pressuring her.

When I told her I loved her (a mistake, but it felt right at the time), she said she was sorry she couldn't return it 100%, that she still has some feelings for the OM, but that she was working on it. She said she didn't want to return while she still had some feelings for him. She said she wouldn't come home with me, but that she is flying down June 10th. She pushed my head up saying, "Keep your head up...be patient."

Going into the weekend, she kept telling me not to get my hopes up too high. She hasn't said that since my visit. She told me the OM was majorly screwing up and that she had no reason to be patient with him anymore. "Why should I be patient when I know there's someone at home that will love me and will be there for me always?" she said.

She basically said one more mess-up or more of the same from the other man and she would be done. I am hurt by the notion that I am second choice or a backup. It's hard not to think that and let it get in the way, but I won't let pride destroy this family when things seem so close.

Her family and friends were all surprised when my W didn't come home with me. Her friend believes she will stay when she flies down the 10th. Her friend recommended I propose to her all over again...I'm not sure about this move though.

In case you're wondering, I do have DC. It is so great having them back. I try my hardest not to let them see my pain, but they are more receptive than you think.

5/27-30 - W spends wknd w/OM. I knew this was planned. After putting OM on notice, he of course minded his Ps and Qs. She did call me from his place a couple times while he was sleeping...sounds familiar.

5/31 - W informs me nothing has changed, that we are still really good. W calls back later and says, "I NEED you"...I'm thinking, is this it?...oh wait here it comes..."I need a favor"...of course. W wanted a little money to get her through till she comes down even though she no longer has the children.


So, my plan is now to serve her if she does not stay on the 10th. Lawyers informed me it would be better to serve her in Texas to avoid any question of jurisdiction. BTW W's Aunt agrees that I have an obligation to protect my children. It makes me feel a little better about it. I'm hoping she stays and I don't have to serve her.