2B-

Try talking to your husband, and letting him know how much YOU feel that the two of you need MC together to make it work...and let him know the truth about why you feel it wasn't worthwile the first time. If he still chooses not to go, there may not be much more you can do at the time but pray about it.

We got lucky on the counselor issue, but I do have some small suggestion on helping you to pick one. Figure out what it was that you liked and disliked about the first counselor, and start your search armed with that. And when you start calling around, talk with their receptionist/assistant/whatever. Ask them about their approach, background, etc... Make sure that it's a counselor who is used to dealing with these kinds of issues.

Interestingly enough, I was the one who got our counselor interested in using MB type principles. Don't take me wrong, he's done a lot for us prior to this, but its interesting how much he's taken to a lot of what I shared with him about SH's works, and what I've learned here. Kinda nice, because I can only see that helping my wife and I...LOL.

For some reason, I think a lot of us didn't have that great of a weekend. I'll post about mine on my own thread, but I AM sorry to hear that yours wasn't as good as you'd hoped friend. Take care, and keep us updated!!

Karegh,
Thanks for the ideas on MC's. I am the one that picked the MC that we went to. I talked to her personally on the phone and asked her all the "right" questions I believed. She seemed very caring and she is. But,after a few sessions, she seemed very unfamiliar with internet usage - and with my A being an online EA - well I didn't think she could relate much. She also called me naive and my husband "a dummy" for not meeting my needs! Of course she didn't say this in a mean manner, but still.....
She gave us some tools to work with to improve our marriage but never talked about any of the MB principles at all or even somewhat. Basically she just listened to our story and then gave us some ideas to help our marriage in the communication area. Is this normal or should she have done more?

2B-

I don't know how to do all the links, but look under "bassistist" thread on marriage counsellors in the recovery section (posted in the last few days). There are some good suggestions there about interviewing MC. I am considering this as well but anxious about choosing the right person. I agree with you, someone with knowledge of EA's would be important.

I'm in the same boat as you regarding H not wanting to talk. Even last night he told me he thinks I should be over this by now. He says if he's over it I certainly should be. I wish he would read some things on the site as well, but I know he wouldn't take the time to sit and "weed" through everything. Maybe we need to take the time to find the important things and print them up for them? All of us here have such a support with each other and have learned so much, but I feel our H's are out there on their own floundering and not knowing which direction to go.

Well, all I can think of in Cards and 2B's situations is that your husbands are in the 'minimizing' stage of recovery. They want to believe that what happened is a lot less than what it truly was. I didn't have a lot of choice in accepting my wife's EA, or how big it was given how quickly everything escalated when D-day hit for us.

Perhaps once they start to accept it a little more, it'll sink into them how badly that you all need counseling to help sit down and sort through everything, and how much that helps speed up the recovery.

Our counselor really has only provided us with some basic tools for improving communication and handling how we disagree on something...other than that, most of our counseling sessions have more been just forums where we can have a nuetral 3rd party present to help referee us when we're talking about issues that are hard for us to deal with by ourselves. Since we came into his office with the attitude of working through what lead to the affair, and had a good basis for trying to solve things already, there wasn't much more that he could really do for us, other than provide a few good resources and a safe place to deal with things.

It's kind of funny...here I am the BS, and I personally would like to talk MORE about it with my wife, but SHE is in the 'I'm over it' stage. Gotta love how things work out sometimes.

I think that cardsonly and my situation is a bit different. My husband has been dealing with the lies and the "A's" for well over 1 1/2 years and he said he is "over it" and ready to just get back to normal. The hardest for him was the first "A" and dealing with that and now I added the 2nd "A" as well as the continued contact with the 2nd "A". He is in no way is minimizing the "A's". He feels that the "A's" have affected our marriage greatly, but he is just tired of talking about it all, whereas I'm not. That is why I feel maybe it's just me that needs to have IC.

Karegh, how you described your MC sounds similar to what we experienced, so maybe this MC wasn't so bad. I hate to really start all over telling another MC the entire story.

Cards, thanks for the tip on that thread on counceling. I'll have to check it out when I have the time. Your husband does sound like mine with wanting to get over all of this. I seem to have things that keep popping up in my mind that I want to talk about. He'll listen, but he is growing weary of listening to it all. I think you and I are similar with trying to sort it all out in our heads, and with that, I want my husband to be there to listen to it all. I also, thought about printing out some threads for him to read like you are thinking of doing for your husband. In fact, last night I told him a bit of your story and he just doesn't understand how people like us could get all caught up in an EA. To him it's a "no brainer" and he could never get caught up in an EA. So, I'm just not sure how to handle it if he doesn't want to talk about it anymore. I really am at a loss!

2B-

Tell your H that WE'RE amazed, too, that it happened to us! That's why I hesitate to confide in most of my friends, I don't think they'll understand how easily it happens without even knowing it! It's probably especially hard for the men to understand because I think the women do get MORE emotionally involved than MOST men.

As far as our H's, for sure your H has dealt with this a lot longer than mine. I can somewhat understand why he feels like he does. But they still have to get to the root of the "why" it happened. Like you, there are EN's that my H hasn't met in a long time. Some EN's have maybe NEVER been met. So, I am somewhat concerned that I may not get to the feelings about my H that I want to have. He will have to do things he hasn't done before. I'm not sure he realizes this. And since we've now had this "taste" of these EN's being met, they now seem necessary.

Maybe for both us, IC is necessary. I'm beginning to think I may have to start the search, too. For now we need to just hang in there and work at it one day at a time. Talking here helps me so much!

2BN,

You said a few things I thought I would comment on.

You said

But, there is something you are forgetting 2BN. He LIVED though it. He endured the pain, and the frustration, and the lies, and the disappointment and I am guessing he is very very tired. I get the impression you don't understand what an Affair and certainly two affairs takes out of the BS, IF they try and save the marriage. My bet is he is tired and to some extent numb.

Plus you may need to consider the fact that when he gets to "hear it all", he feels as if HE is to blame. He may feel this whether or NOT you intend it this way.

I don't know your H or you for that matter. But, let's construct a scenario. Let's say your H has had an affair and he carried on for a lengthy period of time, even after YOU knew about it. So how would your self-esteem be? Probably NOT to high right? So now he wants to talk about it and he wants to discuss why HE made the decisions he made. There is little doubt that to do that he will have to discuss how he felt the state of the marriage was before the A started right? And who might be involved in the state of the marriage? It would be you. So given your self-esteem, given that you are hurting, given that you already know ALL of the details because he did answer your questions, wouldn't the idea of listening to your failings as a marriage partner appeal to you about as much fun as a having OLD FASHION root canal?

Perhaps some recovery time, some discussion time with him might help. I am all for MC or even IC, but you can see why he doesn't want to hear more about he failed as an H. Oh! and by the way, men do view as they failed when their W turns them into cockholds. That name was invented for men.
So why not think about this abit and talk with him abit. He needs to recover abit personally is my guess. Plus, he being like most of us guys, he does NOT want to talk to a third person about his private feelings. Women do this all of the time so are used to it.


Why don't you talk about the future. Use the past only to guide your decisions about the future and how to safe guard your marriage and each other. Once he is used to that, THEN issues from the past can be examined. But, 2BN, talk to him about the future and how you would like it to be, and what you feel you need to do to make it that way. Ask for his help in envisioning the future and he may well talk.

Plus, you planning for a future with him, will help reassure him of your intentions to be with him. Everyone needs a little reassurance right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Must go, just some thoughts, hope they help.

God Bless,

JL

Now there is a bit of good advice...try to take the tack of not looking at it from a 'this happened in the past because I didn't have this need met' to a 'for our marriage to be great in the future, this is what we're both going to need'. He might respond to that.

I have to comment about one other thing...JL's comment about the man taking it as a personal failure is soooo dead on the money!! Make no mistake, my wife was the one who had the affair. But I can absolutely tell you that at this point, it STILL feels like it was my mistake somehow. There is something somewhere that I did to cause it...I failed her in xx ways, I did this...I did that... I agree that not meeting emotional needs is the basis for most of these, but even when you look at THAT, it looks like it's all the BS's fault for the affair. THAT is one of the other big reasons that BS's can't 'just let it go' most times. They keep trying to figure out what THEY did wrong, and have to deal with their OWN guilt in the whole situation.

Hang in there friend.

[color:"blue"]Cards[/color], I have never confided in any of my friends with this. My husband would not allow it. It was something that I never would have imagined happening to me. I haven't shared much about the first "A" with the first OM, but really it is how this whole mess got started. This first OM was someone I met on vacation when I was 16 and only knew for 3 days. 24 years later he looks me up through Classmates and after a month of talking with him and he told me how he has always loved me...blah blah blah...,then "somehow" I became convinced that I loved him! I look back and think...how stupid was I? How did I fall for that? My husband knows the EN's that were missing now in our marriage and he said that he feels bad that I was grasping at that because I wasn't getting what I needed in our marriage.


My husband and I had a conversation to this effect the other day. Yes, I have had a "taste" of these EN's needs that for some reason, I didn't know that I really needed them until the "A" and now I want them. If I never had the "A" and then the 2nd "A", would I still be feeling this way? I'm not sure.

[color:"blue"]Just Learning[/color] , You have really given me some good advice to think about. It was just what I needed to hear. I do know that I hurt my husband and how this has affected him, but it is most difficult for me to really "grasp" how much when I have never been in his shoes. Also, it is very difficult for him to understand me sometimes as he has never been in my shoes. I will try to concentrate more on "us" and our future. Last night we started to play cards which is something we used to do long ago before we were married and enjoyed. It was nice just to do something with him and have some fun.

[color:"blue"]Karegh[/color] ,

I believe my husband feels the same given that he knows he was not meeting my EN's. He sometimes feels like a failure of a husband. I really need to concentrate on making him not feeling this way. I take full responsiblitly for the "A". Even though my EN's were not being met, I had the choice to remain faithful.

2Bnormal wrote in another thread:

2B-
I just wanted to take this back to your thread, so we didn't keep threadjacking Cards thread.

This is a great point...one of the HUGE boundaries that you have to be careful of in dealing with opposite sex friends is talking about issues with your current spouse. Anytime you do this....'danger, danger, DANGER!'.

Which is why I'll never PM you, or any other lady here on the site. Everything I say or do will be out in the open, because I don't want to run the risk of crossing a line...either for you, or for myself. My wife's EA started with her talking with her OM about how unhappy she was in our M...and that lead to where we got to. I won't do that to her, to me, or to anyone else.

The feeling of being a 'failure'...and of not knowing how to romance you...those are reasons why I'd suggest counseling...maybe even IC for him. And I'm sure he knows a LITTLE about romancing...he managed to get you to marry him at some point. He's forgotten how, and he needs to re-learn.

It sounds to me like you both still need counseling on HOW to meet each other's EN's properly.

Karegh, Great points! I have learned greatly that I will NEVER EVER send PM's to any man. I thought I could handle it and had no idea where it would lead after months of talking. The OM had an affair about 5 years prior to this and you think he would have learned!

So I am back to the issue of counseling and finding a counselor that can guide us in our EN's area. This was brought out in our counseling sessions, and as I stated earlier, the MC gave my husband some ideas for starters. Perhaps I need to suggest returning to the same counselor for another session and see where it leads.

2BN,

You said something that sort of bothered me. I guess because this in conjunction with something you have said earlier about your H and your recently discovered needs. You said
How are you going to do this? Have you identified your H's needs? For example, most men will place "respect" as a need and yet clearly you don't have much for him. Your words indicate that although he fails to meet your needs, some of which you did NOT know you had until your A's, you still want to be married to him. This is a very backhand way of saying "I love you but..." which means you don't love him. If that is the message (You don't love him) then tell him. If however you do love him, the "but" part needs to leave the discussion.



Here is a classic example. You take full responsibility for the A "even though" (read as BUT...) he failed. That "even though" just negated what you said earlier. You are still blaming your H for your A's. You are also blaming him for meeting needs you did NOT know you had until you had the A's.

In case you don't realize it not meeting ALL or some of someones EN's is never a reason to have an affair. Further,it is unlikely your H is perfect. You might be surprised when you fully get out of withdrawal and really start to heal. I am betting NEITHER of your OM are perfect, and frankly are NOT good candidates for marriage. Neither value marriage very much, that much is clear.

I have heard it said that the key to a happy marriage is "diminished expectations". I think what it is, is a realistic set of expectations and a good sense of humor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Your H can be a better H to you, but he will never be perfect, he will never meet ALL of your needs (especially the ones he does not know about) all of the time and some of them rarely. He is willing to accept less than perfection in you, because he understands you are human.

I am on this point for a reason 2BN. It seems to me you are still focused on the needs unmet as a way to not face the reality of what you have done to someone you once claimed to love and would cherish. It is a hard thing to face. I realize that, but your marriage will not truely flourish until you face your failings. Your H has had to, because you have rubbed his face in them.

It is time to start to consider what YOU need to do to help him as well as consider what he NEEDS to do to help you.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Just Learning, I realize you are trying to help me think here, but I think it may be hard for you to understand "everything" as it's very hard for me to put "everything" and all aspects of what we are going through on these threads. And yes, it would appear that I am focusing on just what I want and it may "appear" to you by my words, that I don't love my husband, but I do love him. If I didn't love him, I would not have admitted to him last week that I failed with my communications that were continued with the OM. I would not have told him that I wish to be completely honest with him from now on and that day forward to make our marriage better than ever! And I am "not" putting the blame of the "A" on my husband not meeting my EN's. As I stated earlier, I didn't know he wasn't meeting them until this OM came along and fulfulled something that I haven't felt in a long time (or perhaps never felt). I know it was VERY wrong of me to pursue either OM regardless of what EN's were not being met!!! I have failed my husband I am very sure of that in meeting many of his EN's both now and in the past. We are both human and we will fail and make mistakes. What I am trying to do here is understand and learn from "both" of our mistakes and in that I want our marriage to move forward.

Now geting back to your question:

We have filled out the EN's survey and talked about it. I ask him quite a bit what his needs are and how I can meet them! But, he doesn't seem to be as focused on that as I am right now. He will ask some things of me to improve on and I take that to heart and am trying. All I have been trying to get at here is that my husband doesn't know how to meet my needs. I want to convey that to him and to try to help him. This is a very difficult area for him because it's something that he hasn't done in the past.

2B-

I wonder somewhat if what I responded to on Cards post might pertain to you as well, friend? Take a look, and let me know if this sounds like you might be in a similar situation? Just a thought.

Still no luck on getting the Owl moniker back. Don't know how to fix the old account, and don't feel like trying to get a new email address just to create ANOTHER account here.

Karegh, I read through all of the posts on cardsonly's thread, including your posts, yesterday. I have been really thinking through all of this since yesterday. I think I haven't been giving my husband the credit he deserves for staying with me and being committed to me through all that I put him through. All of that is alot on a person, let alone the person you love and are very committed to. This alone shows me the great love he has for me. I want a quick fix to all of this, but it won't be quick and it will be alot of hard work for both of us.

I have been thinking about the EN's as well that I want met. If I think about how the OM met these needs, my husband can never meet them in the same way. With the OM, I constantly fed off of these EN's all day long in a way that I do not communicate with my husband simply because it was an online A. So if that makes any sense, I can't expect the same feelings there that I was getting from the OM.

I believe you said this yesterday, that we need to create our own romance. And I know this will be a slow process for my husband, simply because it's not as natural to him to express these needs to me. It will take time and encouragement on both of our parts.

I also believe that I'm still in withdrawal from the OM given that the communication did not stop all that long ago. So, I believe this is still causing me to want this "quick fix".

Does any of this make any sense?



That's too bad...is there a way to change Karegh to Owl2 or something like that without opening a new account? It seems like you can change your display name if you go into editing your account, but I'm not sure.

2B-
What you said makes perfect sense. And it's actually exactly what I was hoping you'd come to realize. The thing is, it normally takes TIME for that realization to come.

My wife didn't begin to appreciate the scope of work I'd done to try to save our marriage for several months after she'd decided to work things out.

I can appreciate how your husband can't do the same thing that your OM could as far as IMing you all day...we struggled with that some too. I re-worked a few things so that I COULD IM her during the day...but here's an interesting twist for you now...now, she doesn't NEED that contact anymore. She appreciates the little bit of IM contact that we do share, but it's nowhere near the scope of what her and OM had.

You might look and try to determine if that contact was a NEED, or a WANT. My feelings are that as you and your husband re-connect on other levels, you'll find that 'need' to be less and less...maybe more of a want. Right now, you miss it since it was part of the whole EA thing, and that withdrawl still makes you want that. Otherwise, you'd be asking your husband to try to meet that particular need in whatever fashion he could. I could be wrong, but that's my thoughts.

Karegh, I think what I was trying to get at about the EN's that the OM met is that they are "real needs" for me, but they were given to me in such a high concentration because I received them all day long. It was an addiction that I needed to be fed as often as I could. That is not reality even if my husband and I were communicating on the computer like the OM and me. My husband's job does not give him access to the internet, but we do try to call each other several times during the day to say hello and see how each other's day is going.

And because I became friends with the OM first over a period of 6 - 7 months before we went into the "A", I still have the attachment beyond the "highs" of the EN's being met. I still care about him even though I KNOW for sure that what we did was so very wrong. So, I am dealing with that as well. This must be all part of the withdrawal process and I know it will take time.

My husband and I are trying to re-connect in many ways, but we are living in reality (not the fantasy of the A) and life's issues do get in the way at times. I have to be patient and realize that we are working on this but it will take some time.

2BN,

Given what you have said in the last few posts,would you now go back and reread what I said to you. I had a reason to post as I did to you, and your response illustrated what Karegh picked up on. You are still in withdrawal. You are focusing on yourself which is expected at this point. But, while you may KNOW you love your H, he is very likely not as certain, hence by comments about the "I love you...but" statements.

Part of recovery is him coming to feel that you truely do love him without the "buts". Part of recovery is him understanding what is in your heart. You know what is there but he does not. He only has your words to go on, as do we here. In all of the years I have posted here, I have noticed that peoples words more often than not accurately reflect what they are thinking and feeling, although many times they claim they don't.

You have just recently ended contact with OM. You still view things through the filter of your relationship with OM, no matter how much of a fantasy it might have been. You are evaluating your H through the filter of the OM. As times goes on and as you continue through withdrawal, you will see your H far differently than you did.

AND as Karegh pointed out, what you feel to be deep needs now, may well change in the future. Peoples needs or at least their ordering of them do change with time and circumstances. For example most men might list SF as their top need, but if their W has an affair, often the top need shifts to honesty. It is normal, you are normal.

My post in particular and I suspect those of others here, is meant to point things out to you that you would very likely figure out in the by and by. However, the sooner you see them the faster and stronger the recovery of you marriage will be. So...we prod you. The idea is to help. I do hope it will.

God Bless,

JL

2B-

I like how you explained that about the EN's. That's what I am experiencing when trying to explain to H what needs OM was meeting. I touched on that yesterday on my thread. It's impossible to translate what we got from them & get the same from H. For me, too, it was an addiction. My OM IM'd me all day long (at his will, I might add). My H could never duplicate that. So, yes, the addiction of it, plus all the other enticing, mysterious aspects of the EA that can't be exactly duplicated.

So, I'm thinking that there's no point in even trying to duplicate that, but, rather starting from scratch to define our EN's irrespective of what was going on with OM. For me the big picture of what I was getting was attention & someone desiring me. Those things my H CAN do when we are both ready and able to jump into that.

Just Learning, Your post yesterday made me think. I think I was angry at first because I didn't want to face it, but it really made me think and I do appreciate it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I do realize that this will be a process for both me as well as my husband and I do need for him to know and realize that I truly do love him.

Yes, I really do believe now that I am viewing things through the filter of the relationship of the OM (as you put it so well). I still think about the A and I think about him and I need to move away from that and I expect as time goes on I will.

I thank you for your prods JL as they did make me think - which is what I need to do!

Cards, it is impossible for us to relate the needs the OM was meeting to our husbands because these needs the OM met were not in the context of reality. My OM and I emailed quite lengthy emails all day long to each other until each of us left work for the day. Our husband's cannot duplicate those needs, but I do believe as we work through this, our husband's can meet our needs. I also believe that they will meet those needs in a much better way because we are dealing with those needs in reality.



Yes this is true for me and also the words of affirmation that I got all day long. If you think about it, our husbands already desire us...they married us and are staying committed to us. Can we say that for the OM? I don't think so!