Bumping a bit to try to get some more input in addition to the wonderful input I've already gotten.

I had a sleepless night worrying about the ramifications of what happened yesterday. Will WH respect me more now? Will the fog lift? Will he hire a hit man to off me?

Once again: aaaaagh!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles, you are getting darn good advice from Gimble and Sleepless. Gimble hit the nail on the head when he said that you shouldn't facilitate their conversations. Let your H do this on his own. Gimble is one of the best, most experienced posters on this forum; you can relax with him posting to you.

You were absolutely correct in sticking to your boundaries about the kids. See, rather than being a lovebuster, you have shown your WS that there are consuquences to sleazy behavior. The worst thing you can do is sacrifice your children to accommodate a fogged out WS. Plan A does not mean bending to their every warped whim or protecting him from the consequences of his behavior. I think you did a beautiful job and should give yourself more credit. You seem to have good instincts but are just unsure of yourself. [which is very normal!]

Please calm down and quit second guessing yourself. You will have to get into conflict sometimes with your WS and you can't let it scare you. You are doing the right thing, which is not so easy at times.

I absolutely agree. I am so grateful to have such good advice and I thank all of you for taking the time to reply to my long rants. The dream I had about the hit man last night kind of freaked me out. You'd think being a left-coaster I'd be more laid back and granola-ish (wink).

Thank you. Me and my instincts haven't had a very good relationship lately. They (my instincts) kind of let me down when I didn't catch on to WH's A. That's why I come here - the backup, the great advice, and to feel like I am somewhat normal (well, normal for me, anyway). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Okay, I'll try. I'll do a yoga DVD this morning, or maybe pumping some serious iron or a little kickboxing would help. I can think of a great imaginary motivational target for kickboxing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I guess switching to decaf wouldn't hurt either, hmm?

hehe, good idea! Working out saved my sanity. I worked out every day after my H left and it was a lifesaver. I threw myself into my workout and it was the only reprieve I had from the pain. AND, I got in good shape and got in the habit of working out regularly. I started with Tae-Bo, graduated to The Firm and now do Cathe Friedrich weight lifting alternated with my ellipitical. It does wonders for your mental health!

MelodyLane, Cathe is my favorite!! I have all of her DVDs, except Slow and Heavy which was too slow...and, well, too heavy...for me (carpal tunnel wrists). I'm not quite as macho (macha?) as she is, though. I usually subtract at least 5-8 pounds from what she is lifting. I am also a FIRMie from way back. Small world! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We'll have to compare collections sometime. I'll only admit that I could use a different DVD every day for, well, a really, really long time before I had to repeat a workout. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Favorite Cathe F. quote: "I know you're tired, but jump higher!!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles, my own recovery ows no small debt to Gimble and melodyLane. I can add nothing to their words.

In summary plan A isn't being doormat. Its being consistently 'attarctive; not just in EN meeting etc, but in providing an attractive place for a wavering WS to come and rest.

Th ekey that most plan A'ers miss is that you MUST NOT dicount the price of readmission to that safe place.

Total no contact
Total demonstable re-commitment to rebuilding the M.
Total respectful treatment of BS and kids.

Do you want him back without these basics as a minumim.

Listen carefully to Mel and Gimble. I do every single time.

Dear Pebbles ~

I did exactly what you are doing now - and I have been in recovery for almost 4 years.

I posted a long post to you last night - but it wasn't here this morning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My D-day happened when my husband left the house with our son one morning to run a few errands and didn't return for 12 hours.

I found out that he had told our son not to tell Mommy that they had spent the day at a lady's house with her children. Our son sobbed as he confessed to me that his father had told him not to tell.

At that point, I became Momma Bear.

I kicked my husband out of the house (pre-marriagebuilders - but I wasn't going to put up with any kind of cheating, lying, and dragging our kids into it).

The rules I set down were that he could come to our home any time he wished to see the kids. He was welcome to stay at the house on weekends to spend time with the kids.

Did he like it? No. His OW hated it. She spent a lot of time telling my husband about his "rights". But deep down in side, I think he knew I was right because while he made threats about my rules, he never actually took action on them.

He did come to see the kids - when the affair was hot and heavy, he didnt come often. But later on (we were separated 18 months) he started coming by alot more frequently.

Then the baby was born (oh yeah, I should mention that I discovered I was pregnant 2 weeks after kicking him out) - and he spent alot of time at the house. He was head over heels in love with his new daughter.

We actually went thru a false recovery back then...and I was on to filing for divorce - again, never letting the kids out of my reach where he could drag them into jeapordy.

Eventually, in order to prepare my kids for the upcoming divorce, I got him to sign an agreement that he would not take the children into her presence, and that there would be no strange women ever in the home overnight when they were with him.

He actually took them one weekend after signing the agreement - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - oh my gosh that was priceless. He had a 1 bedroom apartment and 2 rambunctious boys with him that weekend.

After that he never wanted to take them - he was always willing to stay at the house!

Fortunately, the laws in the state of NJ allowed me to get away with it. There was no legal separation at the time, and as my lawyer advised me, pretty much the parent with the children living under the roof could call the shots.

This also gave me alot of opportunity to plan A.

My story ended well. The night before our first court date, he came to me and swore he would do whatever I needed to recover our marriage. And for the most part, he's done so.

I have never regretted how I protected my children, and you shouldn't either. Plan A means doing your best to fill emotional needs - people forget that there is an emotional need called Family Committment.

I don't think I would have helped our marriage by being willing to harm our children. I gained respect from my husband for being willing to protect them even though my own emotional fears were driving me to appease him.

Anyway, I hope my story can give you some hope. I tried to make my decisions during that time based on whether or not I could look myself in the eye every morning in the bathroom mirror and be ok with myself.

Doing the right thing is never ever wrong!

~ Bramblerose

ooooh, a fellow Cathe lover and fellow Firmie! Were you ever on the Firm Forum before it went down back in 2002 and then came back as a paid forum? I was on there for years. I love my old Firms and sometimes still pull them out. The newer ones are sort of wimpy, don't ya think?

I have been doing Cathe's CTX series this week and rotating with her newer total body, Muscle Max, an awesome workout!

Wow, I hadn't thought of it that way. I guess (no, I'm sure) I don't want him back without those basics. I want my kind, loving, honest, devoted husband back, not the cruel alien WH, but I want us both improved from what we were before, better able to meet each other's ENs and better able to communicate.

Mel and Gimble have definitely been a Godsend to me. All of you seem so wise, while here I am floundering about trying to grab on to something that makes sense. Everyone in my "real" (non-internet) life has told me "good riddance" and "kick him to the curb." Very few understand how anyone could want to take back a WS and make the M better.

I only hope I have the strength and my own wisdom enough to do the right things, based on what I've learned here, and that God will open my WH's heart enough to see what he is giving up.

BrambleRose, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you posting your story, especially since you had to retype it because the first one got lost in cyberspace!

You give me hope that there is hope. My goodness, finding out you were pregnant two weeks after you kicked your FWH out! That must have made things even harder. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall when your FWH had your boys at his one-bedroom apartment. Your FWH had no idea what he was in for, LOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> You are one strong woman, BrambleRose!

I have never seen my WH so angry as he was last night when I told him I couldn't let him take the kids to his apartment. Truly, he had never raised his voice to me before. At one point he just stared at me, right in the eyes, for quite some time, trying to intimidate me. It was the first time I have ever been frightened of him. I think the "hit man" dream stemmed from that. WH didn't make any move that was physically threatening, but I was (internally) terrified nonetheless. Thankfully, I was able to laugh it off and ask him, "What are you hoping to accomplish by staring at me like that?" He said, "I want you to let me take the kids." I used broken-record babble: "You can have the children overnight when we have a signed agreement." I used that statement a lot.

It was very weird when he took me up on the offer to spend the evening with the kids at the house. He reverted back to his nice guy personality. Very confusing.

Sometimes I wonder if he is too far gone. I so want to believe that my husband is in there, somewhere. Knowing you were separated for 18 months before beginning recovery is both encouraging and terrifying to me. That's a long time!

It is encouraging that all of you think I did the right thing. I know that conflict with WH is unavoidable under the circumstances, but he really seemed like he had hatred for me. I'd never seen him like that before. Scary! Well, I guess it proves that I do need to protect my children from the man he is right now and from the lifestyle he is currently living.

I was never on the FIRM Forum, but I do visit a couple other vidiot sites. I like to visit those sites because my video collecting/workout hobby doesn't seem unusual there. Funny, many people think a room full of exercise equipment and a bazillion fitness videos/DVDs is strange. Can you imagine?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


I'm such a workout variety junkie. I like old FIRMs, newer FIRMs...whatever. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I do think the newer ones are not quite as tough. CTX is great, a favorite of mine. I haven't tried Muscle Max yet, but I have it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I'll have to take it out of the shrinkwrap and give it a go. I'm doing a functional fitness type of rotation right now using the TLP's and some FitPrimes (old and new).

We need a sweating smilie here, after the return of :rolleyes, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> (I had to use Smirk, :Rolleyes' slightly less attractive friend).

OMG, you even have FitPrimes?? You are awesome! I have one of her first ones that she made in her basement with Tracy Long.[love Tracy Long!] It was sort of weird, but I hear her later ones are a little better.

You mean other people DON'T collect workout videos and exercise equipment?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Your fellow vidiot! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All of you seem so wise

Pebbles, Gimble and Mel have both trawled the depths of hell through infidelity and other stuff. It is UTTERLY true that what does not kill a smart and faithful person makes them stronger. Gimble and Mel have vast canons of personal experience, study and faith to call upon to help the likes of you and I THANK GOD for them !

Most other lifers have walked our road too, Pep, Orchid, K, FH...sadly the list goes on and on.

Of course, some folks are just smart anyway like Ark and JL ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles believe me when I say that life will improve. beyond your current ability to imagine it.

All blessings.

Thanks Bob, and I very much feel the same about you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MelodyLane, it's shocking, isn't it?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The depths of hell! That's does seem like where I've been hanging out lately. I know I'm faithful, but I don't feel all that smart right now. I refuse to be destroyed by this, however!! Did that sound almost convincing?? I hope I'll be strong enough to join the rest of you who have emerged from the depths of hell and who have helped me so much. I would be honored to be among you.

As do I thank God for them. You're no slouch yourself, bOb Pure.

It's like an exclusive club - a club no one really wants to join. The membership fee is much too high.

Well...it has to get better from here, eh? There's not much further down to go. Oh, please tell me there's not much further down to go!!

Sometimes I just want to tell WH, "Okay...you win. I get it. You don't love me, you don't want a family any more, you want to destroy me - you can stop now!!! I give up!" Then that battered little spark of something inside me whispers, "Maybe there's hope...as long as I have hope."

I will try to keep what you said in mind: "life will improve, beyond your current ability to imagine it." No matter what happens, things eventually have to get better. They just have to. It wouldn't be fair otherwise (insert stomping feet).

I got a call from my lawyer late this afternoon that my WH had made his revisions to the visitation/custody agreement and faxed it to her. Funny how he was able to find time to do it today, the first business day after our lovely encounter when I wouldn't let him take the kids without a signed agreement. I am glad now that I stood up for my boundaries, even though it was really scary.

Of course, I haven't seen the revisions yet so I have no idea what I'm in for. Apparently he did not follow through on his threat to sue for 50/50 custody and make me sell the house. Now the ball is in my court and he has to wait for me to sign.

What do you think I should do? Should I stall for a while? Or, if the terms are adequately acceptable, should I go ahead and sign it? I still think 90 days is too short a time to keep MOW away from the children. To me, this agreement seems almost like one step closer to a divorce, which I do not want. Or would it actually delay a divorce? Could I be any more indecisive??

Now Plan A updates (of a sort): Surprisingly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />, I am confused. One of WH's top ENs is to be appreciated and needed, but I'm not sure if contacting him occasionally for help will do more harm than good. Contacting him seems to make him feel more guilty and apt to justify his behavior with anger toward me - but sometimes he seems to like me to call. Aaaagh! The alien makes no sense.

He called tonight. When I answered, he didn't even say hello to me, just asked for my son. I know he's probably PO'd from Sat. night. WH runs so hot and cold. When I talk to him, one time he'll be friendly and chatty, the next he'll be cold and barely speak to me. I continue to be cheerful and upbeat with him.

Things have to get better. Things have to get better. Things have to get better. If I say it enough, I'll believe it, right?!

Thanks again, everyone, for being here. I can't thank you enough for all of your help.

Edited to add: I think one of the things that is driving me crazy is I feel like I should be "doing" more, taking more action. I wonder if WH even knows that I still want to save our marriage, even though I've said I don't want a divorce on more than one occasion (most recently at the lawyer's office, but that was a couple weeks ago). I am also trying to appear like I am getting on with my life, but don't want to overdo it. And I'm still working on improving myself. Why does this feel like I'm working a second job?

Sorry, rant over. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

You might consider setting up some family activities with the kids, and invite him along. If he declines, then you take the kids and go anyway. Invite him to every activity.

The more he is at home, the more he is unavailable to the other woman.

Quote:
=========================
I wonder if WH even knows that I still want to save our marriage, even though I've said I don't want a divorce on more than one occasion
=========================

Next time he wants to discuss divorce, try this or your own version on for size.

"Husband, I have no interest in divorce. I am fighting for our marriage. I intend to continue doing so. I realize that I have contributed to the state of our marriage prior to your affair with John's wife. I am willing and able to address any issue necessary to repair our marriage, just as soon as you agree to never contact John's wife again."

Plan A is about negotiating an end to the affair. I suggest you re-read SAA and the articles on 'surviving infidelity' (to the right of the post under "Most Popular Links" That should give you something to do and increase your ability to "take more action".

I suggest that you don't sign the separation agreement until you have had at least 24 hours to think about it. Give your brain a chance to process the information. You may find that you want to make changes.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble, great advice, as always. I intend to follow all of it. Maybe the kids and I can invite WH to go bowling with us this weekend - or we could take the dogs to the dog park (he always liked that). The worst that can happen is he can say no, in which case the kids and I can go without him. Oh, I have a dripping shower head that I can't seem to fix, either.

Yes, I should look over the agreement for at least 24 hours. Heck, he took two weeks to look over his part! I may want to change the start date of the agreement to a later date, instead of April 1, since it's just now being signed. I'll have to ask if I can do that. That would keep MOW away from the kids for a longer time.

WH doesn't bring up the subject of divorce very often. He has said he is sure that's what he wants, but he seems to want me to start it. In fact, my lawyer has the papers ready to be served - on my approval. Lightbulb moment here: Why on earth am I enabling this?? I should have my lawyer hold off on serving indefinitely. I do want to get a financial settlement in place, though. I thought I'd have to file for divorce to get financial protection, but maybe I don't. I will be blatantly plagarizing the paragraph you suggested, when the topic of divorce comes up again.

Thank you, Gimble, for taking the time to reply. I value your advice.

P.S. I used to be a fairly easy-going, reasonably rational, acceptably intelligent person before this happened. Seriously! Not perfect, but not a basket-case like I am now. This has sucked most of the functioning brain cells right out of my head. I am so glad all of you put up with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles, Gimble's advice about family activities is SPOT ON.

I basically spent most of Squids affair and all of her withdrawal doing the most fun family things I could imagine as often as possible. Squid mostly hung around looking wan and disinterested with occasional spiteful spitting " you can fool the kids you care, but you can't fool me".

THEN she came bowling with us and we had a lovely time, 'til Squid remembered to be misery-arsed again.

Then she started coming with us most times.
Then she'd smile and participate properly and be civil...and....

Now she's getting the kids breakfasts in the kitchen, laughing and singing along to Kylie Minogue on the Radio. Contributing HARD to recovery, heeding ALL my family and personal boundaries, loving the kids, loving me. We have personal healing to do but our marriage is better than in years right now.

Mel, Gimble , Pep they'll all tell you how dark my own situation was. Have faith Pebbles, you CAN do this. I did after all.

{{{{{pebbles}}}}}

Just when I thought the depths of hell couldn't get much deeper, things get a whole lot more hellish! I think WH really hates me now.

My WH faxed his desired revisions to our custody/visitation agreement to my lawyer late Monday afternoon. I received copies by fax this morning - at work, 10 minutes before I had to face a classroom full of children.

He wants big changes - to an agreement he okayed and helped develop two weeks ago. He even wants basic legal language changed. I knew there was trouble when my lawyer left me a voice mail message yesterday herself, instead of having her assistant do it.

I spoke to the assistant today. She said he couldn't possibly have had a lawyer look at the documents because some of the things he wanted changed were standard (like me retaining temporary exclusive use of the house and my car).

He also wants just 60 days of NC with MOW, with no restrictions after that, plus one extra day of visitation a week. I would have been okay with the extra day of visitation, but not the 60 days instead of what we agreed to.

The worst part was on the cover letter he enclosed to my attorney. In his own handwriting with his signature at the bottom, he wrote: "I will no longer be providing financial support as of 04/11/05." Scare tactic? Maybe, but if not I am in deep doo doo. There is no way I can pay the mortgage and buy groceries, etc. on my salary alone.

Oh, to show he is still a loving father, he ended his cover letter with: "I hope we can reach an agreement soon. I miss my children very much."

I also got a notice today that my health insurance (which the kids are on) had been cancelled. We had never been on his health insurance through his work. The kids and I were on a private plan (my work does not offer health insurance). WH had been paying for it until now. It is among the bills he gets that he had diverted to a P.O. Box a few weeks before he left (unbeknowst to me).

I know WH was PO'd about what happened Sat. I'm sure a great deal of anger was involved when he made his revisions and wrote the cover letter, but it sure sounds cruel. It's not just me who will suffer without financial support.

The lawyer's assistant said it looks like we will definitely have to go to court. WH said he wanted to avoid going to court because he couldn't afford a lawyer. What is going through this man's head? Just a few months ago he was kind and loving to me. I have an appointment to see the lawyer tomorrow afternoon.

I guess I won't be calling him to see if he wants to go bowling with us tonight, hmmm?

My hands have been shaking all day. I have never felt such feelings of confusion, betrayal, anger, and devastation. What could I have possibly done to this man to deserve this? I wasn't a perfect wife, but I was a good wife and a good person.

Edited to add: Grrrr...I feel like calling his mother and telling her he will no longer financially support his family, but he's probably told her that I won't let him see the kids (which isn't true, but he'll make it sound like it is). Talk me out of or into calling my MIL, please. It would be a giant LB, I know. Aaaagh!!!!

Please, please help and advise me. What do I do now? What will he do now? I don't know how much more I can take.