I don't know how to do a link to my other post that explains the background of my situation. It's called "What the @*&% is Bam-Bam up to now??"

Edited to add link (did it work?):
link

My lawyer called me this afternoon and said that WH wants to "make some changes" to the temporary custody/visitation plan that we had agreed to verbally two weeks ago - that he helped plan. The lawyer said that WH told her he would call me.

He has had these papers for a week and a half. We spoke for quite some time about it a couple days ago. I even asked him if he was okay with the terms. He agreed then, too! Now he wants to make some changes! I don't know if he has seen a lawyer of his own. He has been pleading lack of money and says he can't afford one. I do know he spends time with MOW on Wednesday nights (last night), so maybe she had some input for him (gag).

In the agreement I have specified that I want NC between MOW and my children for 90 days (the most I could get, according to my lawyer), no overnights with MOW present for 90 days after that. He is supposed to have the children every other weekend, and Thursday nights on the off-weekend weeks. He works long hours, but I'm sure part of what he wants is to have the children more often (to cut down the amount of future child support).

Since he has been gone (2.5 months), he has seen the children in person maybe once a week. Most weeks he does not call them at all. Other weeks he calls them once.

The state where I live is very lenient in letting children be around a WSs OP, so I'm a little afraid to go to court. However, it could takes months to get a court date, which could work in my favor to keep her and the kids apart. Because WH and I do not have any sort of signed agreement, I might be able to insist that he not take them overnight.

My question is this: How should I let him know that I am firm in my conditions without love busting or ruining my Plan A? I want to make sure he knows that I am still interested in saving our marriage (even though he is adamant that he is not), but I am firm in keeping the children away from MOW!!!!! She is an adulteress who left her own child and husband - why would I trust her around my children??

Do WSs usually become even more devious and cruel as a separation continues? It seems like he is actively trying to destroy me at times. Is this still following the fogged-out alien script?

Please help me!! And thanks in advance for your advice.

Pebbles, you need to tell him that you are absolutely firm in your conviction that your children are not exposed to the HB [ho-bag]. Just be very civil and polite about it, but be FIRM and straightforward.

Peb

I agree with ML. You just say you liked the original terms...that's why you agreed to them.
H

Pebbles - Listen to Melody. She is an expert. She saved me from letting my WH come home while he was still with OW.

You are very new in this. Things are likely to change for the better soon. Right now you need to PROTECT your children and your family, and finances. When WS's are in the throes of an A, they are just like addicts.

Talk to your WH sweetly, and be prepared for him to try to bait you into an argument. When he starts his fog talk, just let him know that you are following the advice of your attorney, and protecting your family. He will probably be furious, but continue talking to him calmly. Just pretend he is a heroin addict.

P.S. don't use the term ho-bag, tho! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yep, Mel, that would probably be an LB. I used to call my OW a ditch wh*re, but got over that.

Would "skank-ho" be better? Okay, I'll try to behave. I won't call her any kind of ho, not out loud anyway. I'll call her "John's wife" (but with OWH's first name, LOL), as recommended to me by Bob Pure and Gimble. That sure tells it like it is (although the "ho" variations are quite appropriate, too).

I will stand up for my terms. I'm just afraid that if we end up in court things won't end up so much in my favor. But, again, it would be some time before we could get a court date.

Any suggestions on how I can fit "still wanting to work things out if you end your A" into the upcoming conversation?

I can assure you I won't get into an argument with him. I've become quite good at staying calm and relatively upbeat and using reverse babble.

I can scream here, though, right??? Aaaaaagh!!!!!

Yep Pebbles - come here and scream. But be very, very calm and sweet to your husband. Just let him know that you intend to protect your family. I wouldn't even mention your relationship with him. I think this thing will be over soon.

Yes, maybe another time would be best to mention the R. All of you seem to understand all of this so well. When will it make sense to me????

As my granny would say, from your lips to God's ear!

Good advice, believer! So good to see you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Peb

My greatest fear was that I would lose my family. The stuff I could live without but I couldn't survive w/o them. I think most of us are that way. The fog can keep us from seeing what really matters and when the BS makes a firm stand it can be a real eye opener for the WS.
H

If I were in your shoes, I would utterly refuse to sign anything that was not inclusive of my terms. If you don't want OW in your children's life....don't sign. Make him sue you for divorce the hard way.

I think as a parent you have the absolute right to insist that your children be exposed to the moral values that YOU believe in. Just because WH has gone morally bankrupt doesn't mean you have to stand idly by and allow him to likewise impoverish your little people.

I'm not entirely sure that I'd be doing a Plan A with him at this time anyhow. That's just me though. So, I hesitate to advise you on that.

For his part, it must look like he's getting the amicable divorce that he initially wanted. So, if you're going to give him a divorce without initiating a Plan B, why not have it on your terms?

I hope this is what is going through WH's mind. He says he misses the kids, but he has only called them twice since he left 2.5 months ago and has only seen them once a week. He was a good father before and spent a lot of time with the kids, up until about 3-4 months before he left.

WH seems to be in the deepest fog there could be. He has actually told me that MOW has nothing to do with me and is none of my business, even though he wants her to be around our kids (I know, it's the fog talking).

Well, it has been 3 days and WH still hasn't contacted me about what changes he wants in the temporary visitation/custody agreement. I decided I would wait until he contacted me, instead of me calling him.

This was supposed to be his first weekend to have the children, starting tonight (Sat.) after he gets off work.

I wonder if he is just going to show up here at 6 p.m. and expect them to be ready to go to his place. They will not be going. I am going to tell him that without a signed agreement he will need to visit the children at my house, because I can't be sure that MOW will be kept away from the children if he takes them anywhere. I spoke to my lawyer on Friday and she said that I was within my rights to do this, until an agreement is signed. Also, if he takes the children anywhere and refuses to return them to me I would have no grounds to get them back without a signed agreement! Scary!!

If he won't agree to the terms as they were when he verbally agreed to them two weeks ago, I'll call my lawyer Monday to set up a court date. She told me that before we can get a court date we will need to see a mediator, and mediators are backed up for months here. She said we might not get a court date until September! In that case, visitation would be on my terms until then. Hmmm, that would be even longer than the 90-day no-contact-with-MOW clause stipulated in our original agreement. An interesting consideration.

Ladyjane, I am holding off on serving the divorce papers. I was only filing because I want to be sure to have financial protection and defined custody/visitation. If I can get those things without serving the divorce papers, then I am in no hurry.

Everyone, why do you think he is taking so long to contact me about this? Cowardice? Mind game? Busy having too much fun with MOW?

Aaaaagh!!!!

Fence-sitting IMHO

Wanting to get his way but have you make all the hard decisions for him. Wait him out. Sounds like you've got time and the law on your side anyway.

"Everyone, why do you think he is taking so long to contact me about this? Cowardice? Mind game? Busy having too much fun with MOW? "

He's probably waiting for her to tell him what to say. That's what mine did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Either I've done a big thing to break WH out of his fog or I have ruined everything. Either way, something big has happened!

WH showed up at 6 p.m. tonight to pick up the kids for the weekend (even though he had not signed the agreement). I acted surprised when I answered the door. He wanted to argue and discuss the situation in front of the children again, so I got him to go out in the back yard with me (so just the neighbors could hear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ).

When I told him that I would not allow the children to spend the weekend with him at his place without a signed agreement, he was maaaaaaddd!. He accused me of being a harda$$ and said he should go ahead and sue for 50/50 custody, make me sell the house, and "who cares about how the kids feel" (sarcastic). He accused me of doing all this to punish him and that it was my fault that he hadn't visited the kids much since he left us. I did not become angry, argue - or even reply to his threat.

I just told him that without a signed agreement I did not feel sure that the children would not be exposed to ****'s wife (the MOW). He gave me a big sob story about how he had worked so hard this week to get a room ready for the kids, bought a bed, etc., and that he had promised me it would only be him and the kids, no MOW. He also accused me of playing mind games (look who's talking). I replied (very calmly, I might add) that the way he was now I couldn't be sure that I could trust what he was telling me, even though I wanted to trust him because I always had in the past.

He also said he had every right to take the kids whenever he wanted to and that I listened to my lawyer too much. After I told him my lawyer said it was within my rights to wait until the agreement was signed to let him take the kids, I got another good alienism to add to my list: "Just because the lawyer says it doesn't mean it's legal."

I asked him about the changes he wanted to make in the agreement. He said he didn't like "some of the language," but wouldn't really specify what he wanted changed. I asked why he had waited so long to make changes. He said he had to wait for a "professional" to see it. He said he plans to make the changes Monday and fax it back to my lawyer.

This is getting long, but here is how it worked out tonight: I told him that he could come over and see the children whenever he wanted to, as long as it was compatible with their/my schedule. I told him he was welcome to spend the evening with the children here at the house. He then asked to take them out to dinner. I told him he could go get dinner for the kids and eat here with them, that I would even stay in the other room if he wanted to spend time alone with them. I wouldn't really have minded if he took them to dinner, but because he was angry I didn't want to take the chance that he might not bring them back. I don't think he'd really keep them - but what do I know????

He went out to get dinner - and even asked me what I wanted him to bring me. We all ate together at the table. The children did not warm up to him at first. I started conversations about school, etc. so they would talk to him. Still I am trying to help him and the kids interact. I wonder if he notices or appreciates my efforts at all.

A friend sent me some flowers earlier in the day, which we had to move off the dinner table. When I moved them back later (after I had been in another room for a while), I could tell someone had read the card that came with them. The card was innocent, but quite ambiguous in meaning to someone who didn't know the story behind it. I wonder what he thought?

Aside to Bob Pure: If you read this at all...I was wearing my wedding ring. I have no idea if he noticed.

My daughter and I went on an out-of-town field trip yesterday. On the spur of the moment I bought him a travel mug with a picture of where we had been. I never seriously intended to give it to him, but just to see what would happen I told him I got him a mug. He said jokingly, "Are you going to throw it at me?" He didn't really look at it or thank me. After he left, I noticed that he had taken it with him, though.

I went to the master bedroom and watched T.V. for a while. WH watched cartoons with the kids in the family room (their ritual before bedtime). WH left about 10 minutes before their bedtime without saying anything at all to me. All I heard was my son locking the door behind WH as he left.

So, did I handle this the right way for Plan A - or did I blow it big time? Comments?????? Advice???? 2x4s??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Way to go Pebbles!

Good job.

You really set your boundaries well.

The only thing you might have done a bit differently is to let the kids figure out for themselves how to interact with him. There is no reason that they have to like him or talk to him. He is due basic respect of a father, but that is all. Next time, you might want to just let the conversation between kids and father take its natural course instead of drawing everyone in. He will eventually see that he is damaging his relationship with them.

You did good.

Gimble

Pebbles. I think that was a great Plan A. I really like Gimble's comment about the kids though. I've been encouraging mine to interact with WW.

Thanks, Gimble and Sleepless. It helps to know you approve of how I handled it - even though I feel like WH hates me now. It was so hard, partly because it is really the first time in the 22 years that I have known him that WH has raised his voice to me. I just worry what he might be planning to do next. I am proud of myself for not arguing with WH. He certainly provided as much bait as he could.

Interesting point, and well taken. It's the teacher in me, I guess. It just breaks my heart to see kids in emotional pain and feeling awkward, especially such good, loving kids. And, God help me, I still love WH and want our children to love him. I suppose he really shouldn't be shielded from the pain he is causing them (and me for that matter).

All comments and advice, even 2x4s, are appreciated. Hey, what's being whacked upside the head with a 2x4 when you've had your heart torn out of your chest with someone's bare hands (ooh, lovely mental picture <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ). I'm getting goofy now, off to bed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Bumping a bit to try to get some more input in addition to the wonderful input I've already gotten.

I had a sleepless night worrying about the ramifications of what happened yesterday. Will WH respect me more now? Will the fog lift? Will he hire a hit man to off me?

Once again: aaaaagh!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles, you are getting darn good advice from Gimble and Sleepless. Gimble hit the nail on the head when he said that you shouldn't facilitate their conversations. Let your H do this on his own. Gimble is one of the best, most experienced posters on this forum; you can relax with him posting to you.

You were absolutely correct in sticking to your boundaries about the kids. See, rather than being a lovebuster, you have shown your WS that there are consuquences to sleazy behavior. The worst thing you can do is sacrifice your children to accommodate a fogged out WS. Plan A does not mean bending to their every warped whim or protecting him from the consequences of his behavior. I think you did a beautiful job and should give yourself more credit. You seem to have good instincts but are just unsure of yourself. [which is very normal!]

Please calm down and quit second guessing yourself. You will have to get into conflict sometimes with your WS and you can't let it scare you. You are doing the right thing, which is not so easy at times.

I absolutely agree. I am so grateful to have such good advice and I thank all of you for taking the time to reply to my long rants. The dream I had about the hit man last night kind of freaked me out. You'd think being a left-coaster I'd be more laid back and granola-ish (wink).

Thank you. Me and my instincts haven't had a very good relationship lately. They (my instincts) kind of let me down when I didn't catch on to WH's A. That's why I come here - the backup, the great advice, and to feel like I am somewhat normal (well, normal for me, anyway). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Okay, I'll try. I'll do a yoga DVD this morning, or maybe pumping some serious iron or a little kickboxing would help. I can think of a great imaginary motivational target for kickboxing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I guess switching to decaf wouldn't hurt either, hmm?

hehe, good idea! Working out saved my sanity. I worked out every day after my H left and it was a lifesaver. I threw myself into my workout and it was the only reprieve I had from the pain. AND, I got in good shape and got in the habit of working out regularly. I started with Tae-Bo, graduated to The Firm and now do Cathe Friedrich weight lifting alternated with my ellipitical. It does wonders for your mental health!

MelodyLane, Cathe is my favorite!! I have all of her DVDs, except Slow and Heavy which was too slow...and, well, too heavy...for me (carpal tunnel wrists). I'm not quite as macho (macha?) as she is, though. I usually subtract at least 5-8 pounds from what she is lifting. I am also a FIRMie from way back. Small world! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> We'll have to compare collections sometime. I'll only admit that I could use a different DVD every day for, well, a really, really long time before I had to repeat a workout. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Favorite Cathe F. quote: "I know you're tired, but jump higher!!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles, my own recovery ows no small debt to Gimble and melodyLane. I can add nothing to their words.

In summary plan A isn't being doormat. Its being consistently 'attarctive; not just in EN meeting etc, but in providing an attractive place for a wavering WS to come and rest.

Th ekey that most plan A'ers miss is that you MUST NOT dicount the price of readmission to that safe place.

Total no contact
Total demonstable re-commitment to rebuilding the M.
Total respectful treatment of BS and kids.

Do you want him back without these basics as a minumim.

Listen carefully to Mel and Gimble. I do every single time.

Dear Pebbles ~

I did exactly what you are doing now - and I have been in recovery for almost 4 years.

I posted a long post to you last night - but it wasn't here this morning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

My D-day happened when my husband left the house with our son one morning to run a few errands and didn't return for 12 hours.

I found out that he had told our son not to tell Mommy that they had spent the day at a lady's house with her children. Our son sobbed as he confessed to me that his father had told him not to tell.

At that point, I became Momma Bear.

I kicked my husband out of the house (pre-marriagebuilders - but I wasn't going to put up with any kind of cheating, lying, and dragging our kids into it).

The rules I set down were that he could come to our home any time he wished to see the kids. He was welcome to stay at the house on weekends to spend time with the kids.

Did he like it? No. His OW hated it. She spent a lot of time telling my husband about his "rights". But deep down in side, I think he knew I was right because while he made threats about my rules, he never actually took action on them.

He did come to see the kids - when the affair was hot and heavy, he didnt come often. But later on (we were separated 18 months) he started coming by alot more frequently.

Then the baby was born (oh yeah, I should mention that I discovered I was pregnant 2 weeks after kicking him out) - and he spent alot of time at the house. He was head over heels in love with his new daughter.

We actually went thru a false recovery back then...and I was on to filing for divorce - again, never letting the kids out of my reach where he could drag them into jeapordy.

Eventually, in order to prepare my kids for the upcoming divorce, I got him to sign an agreement that he would not take the children into her presence, and that there would be no strange women ever in the home overnight when they were with him.

He actually took them one weekend after signing the agreement - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - oh my gosh that was priceless. He had a 1 bedroom apartment and 2 rambunctious boys with him that weekend.

After that he never wanted to take them - he was always willing to stay at the house!

Fortunately, the laws in the state of NJ allowed me to get away with it. There was no legal separation at the time, and as my lawyer advised me, pretty much the parent with the children living under the roof could call the shots.

This also gave me alot of opportunity to plan A.

My story ended well. The night before our first court date, he came to me and swore he would do whatever I needed to recover our marriage. And for the most part, he's done so.

I have never regretted how I protected my children, and you shouldn't either. Plan A means doing your best to fill emotional needs - people forget that there is an emotional need called Family Committment.

I don't think I would have helped our marriage by being willing to harm our children. I gained respect from my husband for being willing to protect them even though my own emotional fears were driving me to appease him.

Anyway, I hope my story can give you some hope. I tried to make my decisions during that time based on whether or not I could look myself in the eye every morning in the bathroom mirror and be ok with myself.

Doing the right thing is never ever wrong!

~ Bramblerose

ooooh, a fellow Cathe lover and fellow Firmie! Were you ever on the Firm Forum before it went down back in 2002 and then came back as a paid forum? I was on there for years. I love my old Firms and sometimes still pull them out. The newer ones are sort of wimpy, don't ya think?

I have been doing Cathe's CTX series this week and rotating with her newer total body, Muscle Max, an awesome workout!

Wow, I hadn't thought of it that way. I guess (no, I'm sure) I don't want him back without those basics. I want my kind, loving, honest, devoted husband back, not the cruel alien WH, but I want us both improved from what we were before, better able to meet each other's ENs and better able to communicate.

Mel and Gimble have definitely been a Godsend to me. All of you seem so wise, while here I am floundering about trying to grab on to something that makes sense. Everyone in my "real" (non-internet) life has told me "good riddance" and "kick him to the curb." Very few understand how anyone could want to take back a WS and make the M better.

I only hope I have the strength and my own wisdom enough to do the right things, based on what I've learned here, and that God will open my WH's heart enough to see what he is giving up.

BrambleRose, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you posting your story, especially since you had to retype it because the first one got lost in cyberspace!

You give me hope that there is hope. My goodness, finding out you were pregnant two weeks after you kicked your FWH out! That must have made things even harder. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall when your FWH had your boys at his one-bedroom apartment. Your FWH had no idea what he was in for, LOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> You are one strong woman, BrambleRose!

I have never seen my WH so angry as he was last night when I told him I couldn't let him take the kids to his apartment. Truly, he had never raised his voice to me before. At one point he just stared at me, right in the eyes, for quite some time, trying to intimidate me. It was the first time I have ever been frightened of him. I think the "hit man" dream stemmed from that. WH didn't make any move that was physically threatening, but I was (internally) terrified nonetheless. Thankfully, I was able to laugh it off and ask him, "What are you hoping to accomplish by staring at me like that?" He said, "I want you to let me take the kids." I used broken-record babble: "You can have the children overnight when we have a signed agreement." I used that statement a lot.

It was very weird when he took me up on the offer to spend the evening with the kids at the house. He reverted back to his nice guy personality. Very confusing.

Sometimes I wonder if he is too far gone. I so want to believe that my husband is in there, somewhere. Knowing you were separated for 18 months before beginning recovery is both encouraging and terrifying to me. That's a long time!

It is encouraging that all of you think I did the right thing. I know that conflict with WH is unavoidable under the circumstances, but he really seemed like he had hatred for me. I'd never seen him like that before. Scary! Well, I guess it proves that I do need to protect my children from the man he is right now and from the lifestyle he is currently living.

I was never on the FIRM Forum, but I do visit a couple other vidiot sites. I like to visit those sites because my video collecting/workout hobby doesn't seem unusual there. Funny, many people think a room full of exercise equipment and a bazillion fitness videos/DVDs is strange. Can you imagine?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


I'm such a workout variety junkie. I like old FIRMs, newer FIRMs...whatever. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I do think the newer ones are not quite as tough. CTX is great, a favorite of mine. I haven't tried Muscle Max yet, but I have it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I'll have to take it out of the shrinkwrap and give it a go. I'm doing a functional fitness type of rotation right now using the TLP's and some FitPrimes (old and new).

We need a sweating smilie here, after the return of :rolleyes, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> (I had to use Smirk, :Rolleyes' slightly less attractive friend).

OMG, you even have FitPrimes?? You are awesome! I have one of her first ones that she made in her basement with Tracy Long.[love Tracy Long!] It was sort of weird, but I hear her later ones are a little better.

You mean other people DON'T collect workout videos and exercise equipment?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Your fellow vidiot! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All of you seem so wise

Pebbles, Gimble and Mel have both trawled the depths of hell through infidelity and other stuff. It is UTTERLY true that what does not kill a smart and faithful person makes them stronger. Gimble and Mel have vast canons of personal experience, study and faith to call upon to help the likes of you and I THANK GOD for them !

Most other lifers have walked our road too, Pep, Orchid, K, FH...sadly the list goes on and on.

Of course, some folks are just smart anyway like Ark and JL ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles believe me when I say that life will improve. beyond your current ability to imagine it.

All blessings.

Thanks Bob, and I very much feel the same about you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MelodyLane, it's shocking, isn't it?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The depths of hell! That's does seem like where I've been hanging out lately. I know I'm faithful, but I don't feel all that smart right now. I refuse to be destroyed by this, however!! Did that sound almost convincing?? I hope I'll be strong enough to join the rest of you who have emerged from the depths of hell and who have helped me so much. I would be honored to be among you.

As do I thank God for them. You're no slouch yourself, bOb Pure.

It's like an exclusive club - a club no one really wants to join. The membership fee is much too high.

Well...it has to get better from here, eh? There's not much further down to go. Oh, please tell me there's not much further down to go!!

Sometimes I just want to tell WH, "Okay...you win. I get it. You don't love me, you don't want a family any more, you want to destroy me - you can stop now!!! I give up!" Then that battered little spark of something inside me whispers, "Maybe there's hope...as long as I have hope."

I will try to keep what you said in mind: "life will improve, beyond your current ability to imagine it." No matter what happens, things eventually have to get better. They just have to. It wouldn't be fair otherwise (insert stomping feet).

I got a call from my lawyer late this afternoon that my WH had made his revisions to the visitation/custody agreement and faxed it to her. Funny how he was able to find time to do it today, the first business day after our lovely encounter when I wouldn't let him take the kids without a signed agreement. I am glad now that I stood up for my boundaries, even though it was really scary.

Of course, I haven't seen the revisions yet so I have no idea what I'm in for. Apparently he did not follow through on his threat to sue for 50/50 custody and make me sell the house. Now the ball is in my court and he has to wait for me to sign.

What do you think I should do? Should I stall for a while? Or, if the terms are adequately acceptable, should I go ahead and sign it? I still think 90 days is too short a time to keep MOW away from the children. To me, this agreement seems almost like one step closer to a divorce, which I do not want. Or would it actually delay a divorce? Could I be any more indecisive??

Now Plan A updates (of a sort): Surprisingly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />, I am confused. One of WH's top ENs is to be appreciated and needed, but I'm not sure if contacting him occasionally for help will do more harm than good. Contacting him seems to make him feel more guilty and apt to justify his behavior with anger toward me - but sometimes he seems to like me to call. Aaaagh! The alien makes no sense.

He called tonight. When I answered, he didn't even say hello to me, just asked for my son. I know he's probably PO'd from Sat. night. WH runs so hot and cold. When I talk to him, one time he'll be friendly and chatty, the next he'll be cold and barely speak to me. I continue to be cheerful and upbeat with him.

Things have to get better. Things have to get better. Things have to get better. If I say it enough, I'll believe it, right?!

Thanks again, everyone, for being here. I can't thank you enough for all of your help.

Edited to add: I think one of the things that is driving me crazy is I feel like I should be "doing" more, taking more action. I wonder if WH even knows that I still want to save our marriage, even though I've said I don't want a divorce on more than one occasion (most recently at the lawyer's office, but that was a couple weeks ago). I am also trying to appear like I am getting on with my life, but don't want to overdo it. And I'm still working on improving myself. Why does this feel like I'm working a second job?

Sorry, rant over. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

You might consider setting up some family activities with the kids, and invite him along. If he declines, then you take the kids and go anyway. Invite him to every activity.

The more he is at home, the more he is unavailable to the other woman.

Quote:
=========================
I wonder if WH even knows that I still want to save our marriage, even though I've said I don't want a divorce on more than one occasion
=========================

Next time he wants to discuss divorce, try this or your own version on for size.

"Husband, I have no interest in divorce. I am fighting for our marriage. I intend to continue doing so. I realize that I have contributed to the state of our marriage prior to your affair with John's wife. I am willing and able to address any issue necessary to repair our marriage, just as soon as you agree to never contact John's wife again."

Plan A is about negotiating an end to the affair. I suggest you re-read SAA and the articles on 'surviving infidelity' (to the right of the post under "Most Popular Links" That should give you something to do and increase your ability to "take more action".

I suggest that you don't sign the separation agreement until you have had at least 24 hours to think about it. Give your brain a chance to process the information. You may find that you want to make changes.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble, great advice, as always. I intend to follow all of it. Maybe the kids and I can invite WH to go bowling with us this weekend - or we could take the dogs to the dog park (he always liked that). The worst that can happen is he can say no, in which case the kids and I can go without him. Oh, I have a dripping shower head that I can't seem to fix, either.

Yes, I should look over the agreement for at least 24 hours. Heck, he took two weeks to look over his part! I may want to change the start date of the agreement to a later date, instead of April 1, since it's just now being signed. I'll have to ask if I can do that. That would keep MOW away from the kids for a longer time.

WH doesn't bring up the subject of divorce very often. He has said he is sure that's what he wants, but he seems to want me to start it. In fact, my lawyer has the papers ready to be served - on my approval. Lightbulb moment here: Why on earth am I enabling this?? I should have my lawyer hold off on serving indefinitely. I do want to get a financial settlement in place, though. I thought I'd have to file for divorce to get financial protection, but maybe I don't. I will be blatantly plagarizing the paragraph you suggested, when the topic of divorce comes up again.

Thank you, Gimble, for taking the time to reply. I value your advice.

P.S. I used to be a fairly easy-going, reasonably rational, acceptably intelligent person before this happened. Seriously! Not perfect, but not a basket-case like I am now. This has sucked most of the functioning brain cells right out of my head. I am so glad all of you put up with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles, Gimble's advice about family activities is SPOT ON.

I basically spent most of Squids affair and all of her withdrawal doing the most fun family things I could imagine as often as possible. Squid mostly hung around looking wan and disinterested with occasional spiteful spitting " you can fool the kids you care, but you can't fool me".

THEN she came bowling with us and we had a lovely time, 'til Squid remembered to be misery-arsed again.

Then she started coming with us most times.
Then she'd smile and participate properly and be civil...and....

Now she's getting the kids breakfasts in the kitchen, laughing and singing along to Kylie Minogue on the Radio. Contributing HARD to recovery, heeding ALL my family and personal boundaries, loving the kids, loving me. We have personal healing to do but our marriage is better than in years right now.

Mel, Gimble , Pep they'll all tell you how dark my own situation was. Have faith Pebbles, you CAN do this. I did after all.

{{{{{pebbles}}}}}

Just when I thought the depths of hell couldn't get much deeper, things get a whole lot more hellish! I think WH really hates me now.

My WH faxed his desired revisions to our custody/visitation agreement to my lawyer late Monday afternoon. I received copies by fax this morning - at work, 10 minutes before I had to face a classroom full of children.

He wants big changes - to an agreement he okayed and helped develop two weeks ago. He even wants basic legal language changed. I knew there was trouble when my lawyer left me a voice mail message yesterday herself, instead of having her assistant do it.

I spoke to the assistant today. She said he couldn't possibly have had a lawyer look at the documents because some of the things he wanted changed were standard (like me retaining temporary exclusive use of the house and my car).

He also wants just 60 days of NC with MOW, with no restrictions after that, plus one extra day of visitation a week. I would have been okay with the extra day of visitation, but not the 60 days instead of what we agreed to.

The worst part was on the cover letter he enclosed to my attorney. In his own handwriting with his signature at the bottom, he wrote: "I will no longer be providing financial support as of 04/11/05." Scare tactic? Maybe, but if not I am in deep doo doo. There is no way I can pay the mortgage and buy groceries, etc. on my salary alone.

Oh, to show he is still a loving father, he ended his cover letter with: "I hope we can reach an agreement soon. I miss my children very much."

I also got a notice today that my health insurance (which the kids are on) had been cancelled. We had never been on his health insurance through his work. The kids and I were on a private plan (my work does not offer health insurance). WH had been paying for it until now. It is among the bills he gets that he had diverted to a P.O. Box a few weeks before he left (unbeknowst to me).

I know WH was PO'd about what happened Sat. I'm sure a great deal of anger was involved when he made his revisions and wrote the cover letter, but it sure sounds cruel. It's not just me who will suffer without financial support.

The lawyer's assistant said it looks like we will definitely have to go to court. WH said he wanted to avoid going to court because he couldn't afford a lawyer. What is going through this man's head? Just a few months ago he was kind and loving to me. I have an appointment to see the lawyer tomorrow afternoon.

I guess I won't be calling him to see if he wants to go bowling with us tonight, hmmm?

My hands have been shaking all day. I have never felt such feelings of confusion, betrayal, anger, and devastation. What could I have possibly done to this man to deserve this? I wasn't a perfect wife, but I was a good wife and a good person.

Edited to add: Grrrr...I feel like calling his mother and telling her he will no longer financially support his family, but he's probably told her that I won't let him see the kids (which isn't true, but he'll make it sound like it is). Talk me out of or into calling my MIL, please. It would be a giant LB, I know. Aaaagh!!!!

Please, please help and advise me. What do I do now? What will he do now? I don't know how much more I can take.

Hi, Pebbles.

By all means, invite him bowling.

When you call to invite him, don't bring up the settlement agreement. When he brings it up, just tell him: "Husband, it is a real shame that this is having to go to court. I thought we had it worked out. Is 8:00 okay for tonight? We will meet you at the lanes."

He was mad. He expects you to panic and respond in anger. Don't let him control you like that. Do just the opposite.

I will tell you this, if he persists, the courts really tend to look hard at abandonment.

Let him get a taste of reality. The first time his lawyer has a look at what he has done, your hubby is going to be pretty embarrassed.

I think you should now up the ante. No contact between your children and the other woman as long as you are not divorced. He pays all expenses and insurance.

All the best,
Gimble

Pebbles, it sounds like he wrote this all out in anger. It doesn't mean that he will get any of it. Please sit down and talk to your lawyer about all this. He can't just "stop" financial support when the spirit moves him. He is trying to scare you.

In the meantime, please move forward with your Plan A and ask him to go bowling with the family. Being nice to him will disarm him. He expects you to come out swinging, which is what he wants. If can make you angry, then he can justify mistreating you. Don't give him that ammunition. And whatever you do, DO NOT let him scare you into relaxing your boundaries around your kids. That is what he wants.

hehe, Gimble and I were posting at the same time and said the same thing!

Pebbles, can you imagine how much of a heel he is going to feel like when his anger blows over?

Hi, again.

Quote:
===================================
My hands have been shaking all day. I have never felt such feelings of confusion, betrayal, anger, and devastation. What could I have possibly done to this man to deserve this? I wasn't a perfect wife, but I was a good wife and a good person.
===================================

It is normal to feel that way. Do your best to step back. Look at it this way. You are going to be facing these hurts for a while yet. Disconnect from them a bit. The world is not going to end. You will wake up again in the morning, and your life will still be in front of you just waiting for you to re-engage it.

Your kids need a hero. Really. Your hubby has temporarily left the building where all the sane people live, so he is unlikely to be able to meet the kids needs. That means you are volunteered for the job. This is one of those times in a person's life that everyone talks about, but no one likes to face. The simple fact is that you will survive this. It won't be fun, but you can get something out of it.

The pain has come to visit you for a while. What counts in the future, is how you handled it. You can't make the pain go away, and the quickest way through it - is through it. There are no shortcuts and all the waffling and rolling about on the floor will only serve to make it even harder.

So, chin up dear lady, this thing has NOT beat you, and I don't believe that it is going to.

God bless,
Gimble

MelodyLane, you are something else!

Besides, anyone that thinks the way I do can't be all bad, even if they are from Texas.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Gimble

Gimble and MelodyLane, I love you guys!! You took what I thought was a horrible, ominous event and turned it into an opportunity.

Now that you've kindly slapped some sense into me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, I am sure that he does want me to react with anger and fear. Okay...I won't play his game! His anger and cruelty still sting, but it's the alien! Plan A will go on. I'm so glad I got advice here before I called crying to his mom or to him.

Gimble, I take my responsibility of being my children's hero very seriously. There is no way in he!! anyone will be making them suffer any more than they already have, if I have any say about it. Keeping MOW away from them until a divorce is final (if it comes to that) is my goal. If going to court and the delay involved will further that goal, then maybe not having a temporary custody/visitation agreement is for the best.

MelodyLane, if/when WH does snap out of this fog, I'm sure he will feel like a heel. He has done so many unreal, even stupid things. When he was just "H," not WH, he was such a wonderful, admirable, intelligent man. I always hoped my son would grow up to be just like him. All of this is so not him!

I am glad that my lawyer has a copy of his "no more financial support" letter, signed by him. That may come in handy if/when we go to court. In a way, I almost feel sorry for WH. He is so deluded and disconnected from reality.

I am calling him in a few minutes to see if he wants to go bowling with us tomorrow night (the kids had too much homework tonight). Should be interesting.

I feel more hopeful now, more like I am in mid-range hell, instead of the very depths. Thank you!!

I called WH's cell phone to invite him to go bowling with us tomorrow night. I had to leave a message because he was on another call. He hasn't called back yet, but he probably got the message when he finished the other call. It would be interesting to know what he's thinking, but it's probably all scary, dark and cobwebby in his mind since the aliens took his brain away.

Well, one good thing...WH is probably thinking about me a lot right now. Maybe not in the positive way I would like, but I'm sure I'm on his mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles,

I am interested in knowing what the atty says about him dropping you and the kids health insurance.

It is my understanding that health insurance has to be carried on an estranged spouse and the kids until something is finalized in the divorce regarding it.

Or maybe that is just in my state. I know a friend of mine's husband tried to do that and he had to pick it back up again for her.

Isn't he worried about the kids not being insured health wise? I guess the aliens really do take their brains. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Dear Pebbles ~

The anger is a pretty normal response. Think of a child's reaction when he doesn't get his way. The child doesn't just smile and say: "You are so wise Mom, let's do it your way!" The child has a picture in his head of what he wants and how it supposed to be, totally based on fantasy! Disrupt the fantasy with a lil reality and what do you get? Temper! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Couple of things stand out to me when I read your thread and frankly those of many other new BSes here on the board.

Don't expect this to get resolved quickly. I think that people hear that it took 18 months and think OMG I couldn't do that.

The problem is, it took years for my marriage to fall apart. It is that way for most marriages that show up on the board. That kind of damange can not be fixed in even a few weeks or a few months!

Like you, I wanted my husband to just wake up and see what a changed woman I was. It doesn't happen like that.

According to the Harley's, an affair lasts 6 months to 2 years after exposure. In my case, I exposed the affair with hard proof no one could deny probably about 6 months after he moved out. Once family could no longer give him the benefit of the doubt regarding his new "friend", the pressure was on.

I was so tired and so discouraged so many times during that ordeal. I filed for divorce shortly after exposing his affair, because the "proof" I'd found convinced me that he was never coming home. I was angry and hurt, and furious that his OW was convincing him not to support me financially.

God works in mysterious ways. I filled out the paperwork for the attorney, and a day later was in the hospital with a disabling back and leg pain that the doctors thought was a herniated disc - untreatable because I was pregnant! This forced me to put the divorce on hold because I was forced to focus on MYSELF.

Thank GOD I was physically forced to stop spinning in circles about him, and what he was doing and not doing and when was he going to do what he was supposed to do and ..and ...and...and...

I had to focus on me. He became a kind of sideshow to the rest of the drama in my life. Thank goodness, because my filing for divorce was WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY premature. Even months later, when Steve Harley told me it was time to file, it wasn't over. But the second time, my husband's affair had progressed far enough along that he was ready to consider the idea that maybe his marriage was the better choice. Had he been forced to choose that the first time, the OW would have been his choice.

All I can say to you is, if you want your marriage, don't move to quickly. DO take care of yourself and your children, and if that means going to court for support, by all means do it.

I think the best advice or wisdom I can give you is that you don't file for divorce unless 1. it is necessary for your family's protection or 2. You are done with the marriage.

Don't file to force him to choose, or to "win" or to be right or any of those other very deepseated motivations. When you are ready to file because you are emotionally accepting of where you are at, THEN it might be time. And you don't get to that spot quickly either. It takes time. I encourage you to give yourself that time.

(Btw, the laws in most states require that health insurance be left in place - so your husband is about to get a reality check! Let go and let the Law take care of him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

But in the meantime, consider this a vacation from your spouse! (Not a vacation from vows, just from him!)

Include him for the kids sake in your activities, but focus on improving the quality of your life and your kids lives. That means taking time to take care of you spiritually, emotionally and physically.

Remember what I said about momma bear? Well Momma Bear can't take care of her cubs if she's distracted and a wreck.

When you fly on an airplane, they tell you that you must put your own oxygen mask on first in an emergency, before helping others. This concept applies to you here too Mom!

Let your husband do all his spinning and chaos somewhere else.

Hi Pebs - you've been getting excellent advice AND you're dong a TERRIFIC job! I don't have anything to add that hasn't already been said - except be thinking about what your Plan B entry conditions should be.

Once the legal stuff is taken care of is a good milestone for Plan B if you're otherwise ready for it. But clearly not the only mile marker.

OK, one other thing: Time is on your side. Other than the 90 day ticking clock, there is no reason to have a sense of urgency. This is Bam Bam's domain. He's the one in a hurry. He's the one "needing" everything. In fact, the 90 day clock may hold a blessing in disguise - your kids may conclude OW is a skank-ho (in a child's way) and throw a big bucket of cold water on the entire fantasy. Just imagine the possibilities!

So, keep up the good work and go forward knowing that you are in control here and you've got a lot of really good cheerleaders.

Weaver, BrambleRose, and WAT, thank you for your wisdom. It means so much to me that you would take the time to reply.

WH called my cell phone during my recess time, but I didn't hear it ring (maybe he hoped I'd answer??). He left me voice mail about the bowling invitation. It was kind of hard for me to listen to because he had the old H tenderness in his voice, not the alien WH coldness. It about broke my heart. He said that he couldn't go because he had a work meeting (which I think is true). He thanked me very much for thinking of him and said he would like to go next time.

Edited to add: He just called me again (at home) to make sure I got the voice mail. I couldn't tell if it was the alien or my H.

I met with my lawyer this afternoon. She called WH while I was there. She said it sounded like he had talked to a lawyer, but that she couldn't understand why a lawyer would advise him to change some of the basic, standard legal language and requirements. It looks like there will be either 60 or 90 days of no contact with MOW, but anything goes after that. He will also get the extra overnight visitation. The lawyer said that she thinks he wrote that he will no longer provide financial support to make me sign this agreement, because if we can't reach an agreement we'll have to see a mediator and go to court for a custody/support order. Waiting for a mediator would delay financial support until approximately September!

From what I overheard from the lawyer's conversation with WH, everything he said was "me, me, me, me." I know...that's typical for aliens. The alien coldness was back as well. So much for the tenderness I heard in the phone message.

She said there is really no way to make him pay for anything until we go to court for a support order (two weeks, a month, or even longer!). He can't even be forced to pay for our health insurance until there is a court order.

I went to the bank today to withdraw my half of our income tax refund from the joint account. It's a good thing I did! There wasn't much in that account besides my half. A few thousand dollars were no longer there. WH had promised me that the entire tax refund would remain in the joint account (and his promises mean a lot to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />). I guess I know where he got the money to consult his lawyer. A very large payment for my son's braces is due next month, which was supposed to come out of the tax money. I wonder what will happen with that.

BrambleRose: The lawyer said that even if I file for a divorce (which I already have, just haven't served him yet), I can delay the actual divorce as long as I want to. WH can file motions to speed it up, but I can file continuances - up to five years. So, if we can expect the A to last 6 months to 2 years after exposure, there is still hope (assuming I can still stand him after that time). With WH surrounded by A enablers, and the A going on for at least a year, I'm afraid it might become permanent, if it isn't already.

WAT: It is petty of me, but part of me is terrified that the kids might like MOW. I secretly want them to hate her. I hope that she is kind to them, for their sakes, but I hope they will make her life a living hell. I don't know how long I can take Plan A. It's sucking the life out of me. I do intend to keep trying. I just wish I could be sure that it's working (even though I know sometimes it doesn't work at all). What if WH really does just hate me? I've heard of exit affairs. What if this A is one of those? Okay, I need to stop thinking for a while.

weaver: It just doesn't seem right to me that WH can withdraw financial support and cancel health insurance as he pleases. Wouldn't a father want to make sure his children are taken care of? How can he live with himself, knowing that his children will suffer? What if one of the children has to go to the hospital? It will be a tough time for us until court-ordered financial support is in place.

Now I understand why people relate being a BS to a rollercoaster ride. Yesterday morning I was waaaaay down. Later on that day, after reading responses here, I was a little bit up again. Now I'm on the way down again. I am trying to step back and distance myself from the chaos, while still working Plan A.

Now I'm going to take my kids bowling. If I'm lucky, I may even hit one of the pins with the ball. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pebs - does WH know you've actually filed? Or does he know you've filed, but have no intention of proceeding at this time?

It is important that he know you have every intention of salvaging the marriage - that you have no other goal at the moment. When a BS files, it contradicts this bigger message. In some jurisdictions, the BS has no option but to file in order to secure child support, etc. Perhaps this is your sitch. So, make sure he knows your real desires. You can even direct your attorney to specify in any correspondence that your real goal is to reconcile. Understand?

About Plan B - please be looking ahead to this. DO NOT look at Plan B as indication that Plan A has failed. Plan A can never fail if the BS approaches it honestly - because its true accomplishment is positive changes in the BS and demonstration to the WS (to the extent you can) of those changes.

WAT

Well, what he doesn't seem to be understanding that whatever medical bills the children incurr....are HIS responsibility as much as yours. Afterall, if there's no insurance, then BOTH of you are going to be liable for the FULL AMOUNT.

The whole point of having insurance to begin with is to keep from having to pay the whole bill out of pocket. (My sister and her husband allowed their insurance to lapse. Of course, that's when my nephew broke his arm in two places and needed orthopaedic surgery!)

Maybe you should very sweetly remind him of that fact. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I disagree that Pebbles should "educate" her husband - that is her attorney's job to inform him of the liabilities of his actions. Her job is to be an attractive alternative to self-destruction.

I don't know. I think it would depend on how well the conversation is going when they're talking.

Financial planning for the family is something that married couples do together. Presented in the right format, talking about insurance could remind him that they are still and always....a family.

It could also give Pebbles an opportunity to remind him that she is just as much concerned for his future financial liability as she is for her own.

It's just a thought for mulling over, but wouldn't it present her in a positive light as a reasonable person, if she could address issues like this one in a serene manner?

I think it could be an opportunity for a positive interaction.(????)

Ladyjane and KaylaAndy: My lawyer has advised me not to discuss financial support/insurance with WH until the custody/vistation agreement is settled. She is afraid he will become angry about the amount of support and retaliate by making more custody and visitation demands.

WAT: What I told him was that I was "considering" filing. He doesn't know that the paperwork is all completed and ready to be served. I did tell him at our first meeting with the lawyer that I did not want a divorce. He was given the impression by my lawyer that we were going to try to come to custody/visitation and financial support agreements together before filing for divorce. He, of course, told the laywer he wants the divorce as soon as possible. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I will have to file for divorce in order to secure child support. Fortunately, the filing date was the last week of March, so support should be retroactive. I will see if I can direct my lawyer to specify that I want to reconcile, as you said, WAT. Maybe some sort of Plan A letter (i.e. Plan B letter with no "punchline")is in order?

God knows I've tried to demonstrate the positive changes I've made. I have no idea if he has noticed anything at all. He just seems to become more angry and vindictive all the time. The only break in his alien facade lately was when he left me the message after I invited him bowling. I'm just afraid that my Plan A hasn't done enough, and maybe has pushed WH even further away. I'm afraid of Plan B. Having no contact with me sounds like exactly what WH is most hoping for. He'd probably take MOW and his enabling buddies out to celebrate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

How should I handle this??

I need to call WH's parents to invite them to my son's 8th-grade graduation. I'm sure they will ask me how the kids and I are doing. Should I mention that things will be tougher now that WH has withdrawn financial support? Or should I keep that to myself?

What do you think the pros and cons of this would be??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

Answer their questions honestly. You have nothing to hide, and you certainly shouldn't cover for him.

His decision, he can suffer the fallout.

All the best,
Gimble

I called them tonight. Whenever I call them or they call me, my MIL and FIL both get on the line. I did answer their questions honestly. You're right, Gimble, I am telling the truth so I have nothing to hide.

They said they have only spoken to WH one or two times in the 2.5 months since he left us. They have spoken to me many more times than they have spoken to him. They said he hasn't told them anything about what is going on (although they did have dinner with WH and MOW that one time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />). They sounded shocked and upset that WH said he would no longer be providing financial support for us. Whether they will actually say anything to him, I do not know (since they are trying to be "supportive" by being totally nonjudgmental of his behavior so far).<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> My MIL did say that I should "take him to court" if he didn't provide support for her grandchildren. She said, "We should call him tomorrow."

They asked me quite a few questions about what legal action I had taken so far. I didn't provide many details. I just told them that WH and I had seen the lawyer about setting up a temporary visitation/custody plan and that we had not reached an agreement yet. Even though they sounded supportive of me, they are his parents and I expect they will end up supporting him more than me.

In the one or two times that he has spoken to him, my FIL said that he got the impression that my WH is very determined in his decision to be with MOW.

I did tell them that I still do not want a divorce and that I hoped to reconcile...but that I am getting on with my life as best I can in the meantime.

I wonder what WH will have to say when they talk to him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hey Pebbles! You and me both. Gimble's been hitting me with both barrels on my thread. My Plan A is going OK, but WW is DEEP in fog. So is your WH!

Nothing gets a man's attention like a swift kick to the @#%.

If Plan A is over, cut him off. I've got people saying I'm being too harsh telling other people why she's filing for divorce. WW is mad that I called it an affair because there was no intercourse. I'm sorry she doesn't like my definition.

Every time you waiver, you look at the kids and remember, they need a mommy and daddy that love each other. I don't want my boys to think that what mommy did is OK or that a marriage is just a piece of paper.

You're in control! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
=============================
I wonder what WH will have to say when they talk to him.
=============================

He will try to do damage control. That means that he will minimize anything you told them, and try to make you the 'heavy' and himself the saint for having an affair. It is all your fault after all, at least that is what he will likely try to tell them.

The only other choice is for him to be honest, and own up to his callousness. In that case, expect a check.

Your are right about blood being thicker than water, but some parents are better than others. You will have to see what their actions are in order to gauge their usefulness in your situation.

I am sorry you are having to endure this.

God bless,
Gimble

How sad that his parents sit idly by while their son tears up his family. It really makes me angry that there are parents out there who would sacrifice all of thier principles in order to avoid conflict with their children. Some parents! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

This could mean that your Plan A is working wonderfully. Things aren't so peachy in LaLa Land and you're the easy target.

A Plan A letter could be appropriate, but not vital if he knows for sure what you desire from all the legal stuff. If Plan B is reasonably expected, perhaps you should hold off on a Plan A letter to avoid conflicting messages.

WAT

Pebbles, you are amazing! This thread popped up while I was gone and I hadn't read it until yesterday. I have really benefitted from the advice you are getting. Where would we be without MB!

I hope that when it is my time to be a MIL that I have the courage to look at my kids and say "I love you but what you are doing is wrong." And not do this non-judgemental crap. Hopefully, my kids won't get into affair situations. I've told my boys that if they do this to a woman, I will rip their b***s off.

You go girl!

Sleepless: I've been following your story. I hope everything is going well (or as well as can be expected)! I hope the alien mothership returns our WS's brains to them soon, before they hurt themselves. I don't think my WH really thought or planned beyond the actual leaving. He doesn't seem to have a good grasp on reality when it comes to the destruction left in his wake.

Gimble: Yes, WH will probably have to justify his actions by blaming me for everything. So far he hasn't said anything bad about me to his family (and never has - in 22 years), but he'll have to have a pretty convincing reason why I was such a b&*@# that he is no longer willing to support his children financially. A month or so ago he promised his parents that he would always take care of us.

MelodyLane: Yes, I am disappointed that WH's parents haven't let him know they think what he is doing is wrong. Maybe this time, now that their grandchildren are threatened, they'll say something. Definitely a kickboxing workout for me today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

WAT: His anger and vindictiveness could mean my Plan A is working??!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I think WH was expecting that I would be cooperative and accepting of anything he wanted to do as far as visitation and support are concerned. That way he could convince himself that the kids and I are not hurt by what he's done. At first he even said that he was hoping we could be "friendly" about all of this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I just don't want to get my hopes up, only to have them crushed again. What should I do and not do now?

Grapegirl: Thanks! I'm finding out that the more WH tries to destroy me, the more I refuse to be destroyed. I am so thankful for all the advice here. Everyone in my real (non-Internet) life can't understand why I would want WH back and why I would want to fix our M, since he's been such a jerk. I have to admit that at times I'm starting to wonder if he's worth it, too, but I do remember all the loving, happy times we had...

More <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> moments:

After the kids and I got home from having dinner at my parents' house, I spent my Friday evening ankle-deep in toilet water. The toilet in the kids' bathroom overflowed. The dogs enjoyed it, though, and tracked wet paw prints all over the house while we were gone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> This morning the washer died - with a load of toilet-water soaked towels in it. There was some kind of rubbery burning smell associated with the washer's demise. I seem to have some sort of plumbing curse going on.

You know, I'm going to have a very hard time forgiving WH for withdrawing financial support from the kids. I know it's the aliens controlling his brain, but how could any father who loves his children (as WH claims to, and always seemed to) take away their grocery money, health insurance, etc.? I can understand being cruel to me, even though I don't deserve it, but threatening my children... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I know he expects me to react with fear and anger, to get me to be more compliant maybe?? I still plan on remaining calm, no DJs or LBs. I am seething on the inside, though, along with having an extra layer of betrayal, disbelief, and hurt added.

I'll vent here, not at him: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Aaaaaagh!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Here it is Saturday night again. My son is at a friend's house for the night. My daughter and I are watching a video and doing her nails (girls night stuff). In about an hour she'll go to bed...and I'll be alone. I think Saturday nights are the hardest time for me right now.

I think about WH and what he must be doing, spending time and doing...whatever...with MOW, having a great time. I really miss him (that would be H, not MOW's boyfriend). I miss fixing myself up a little and looking forward to talking and laughing with him, maybe going out to dinner with the kids, then watching a movie just the two of us on the couch. And (too much information warning!) I miss the sex - I miss it a lot.

I have gone out with friends. I've even been asked out on dates by a few men (but I don't date right now - I'm married!). Sometimes I just feel so lonely, especially Saturday nights. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hi Pebbles you are not alone.

My DS has a friend over, my DD is here but all the kids are in bed. WH (or should I say WH in NC w/OW) is at male friend's house tonight, and I'm here with you. Thank God the OW is in Texas or I'd be walking the floor. Eventhough WH has come back home I still REALLY miss my H. This guy is distant and cold. Your description of a Sat night home watching movie and everything else w/H sounds like dream. A simple lovely dream.

Hang in there. Just wanted to let you know you are not alone you are actually in very good company (your own, its your H who is missing out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Mine too for that matter.)

I wish my MOW were in Texas! Or maybe the moon. The plant Uranus would be a good place(she could send WH's head back, it seems to be stuck there). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Such a long road ahead. Even if WH does end up coming back, he'll still be WH for a long time. I miss my H soooo much!


Thanks, confused42. They are missing out, aren't they? I'll keep telling myself that.

WH just called and asked to come over and see the kids this afternoon.

The house looks good. I'm going to bake chocolate chip cookies before he gets here, to try to meet his EN of wanting to be cared for. I'll have a plate of cookies for him to take to his place with him (he can share with MOW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> ).

I wonder if his parents have called him and said anything about knowing he is no longer providing us with financial support. I won't bring it up, unless he mentions it. How do you think I should handle this????? He also still has the revised custody/visitation papers, unsigned.

It was the alien on the phone when he called, very cold. I'm nervous.

Advice please?????

Pleasant, pleasant, pleasant! Don't let him drag you into any fights. You know what to do, Pebbles, you will be fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
=========================
..... he can share with MOW
=========================

I hope he tells her where they came from. That would be good.

If he questions what you told his parents, you can answer honestly.

Hubby: "What the (insert expletive here) did you tell my parents? They were livid with me!!"

Wife: "I told them the truth."

Hubby: "WHAT TRUTH?"

Wife: "The truth about your decision regarding supporting our kids. Do you want another cookie?"

Don't sign anything.

Have a good time!

Gimble

Thanks, Gimble and MelodyLane!

Okay, this is how it went:

I was nothing but pleasant and friendly when WH came over to visit Sunday afternoon. The house smelled like cookies when he arrived. He mentioned more than once how good the cookies were. He knew I made them just for him. They were a kind the kids don't like, baked until almost too done, but not burned (just the way he likes them). When I gave him a container of cookies to take with him when he left, he thanked me and seemed sincere.

I did not facilitate his interaction with the kids this time. It took quite a while for them to warm up to him. In fact, my daughter stayed in her room for the first hour of his visit. When WH was out in the back yard working, both kids came in the house and hung around me. I went outside occasionally to offer ice water and chat for a minute or two. By the end of the visit, the kids were interacting with him more, but WH mainly watched them play together.

Very strange, though (maybe?), he didn't bring up anything about money, visitation, his parents calling him, anything at all unpleasant. I don't know if I should be relieved - or afraid of what he is planning to do next.

He did a lot of chores around the yard, and kept asking me if I wanted anything else done. I made sure to tell him how much I appreciated the work he did. He made plans with me to come work on some things in the next week or so. Also strange to me (old habit?), he said a lot of things with "we" and "us" in them. That always gets me right in the heart.

He came back today (Monday), his day off, to work on the pool filter. He asked me if it would be okay for him to be at the house when I was not there (he doesn't have a key to the house, but the gate to the yard is unlocked). He left me a phone message about what he did, quite a long message, in fact, and it sounded like H, not the alien. Was he respecting my boundaries about asking permission to go to the house? Or just placating me so I won't know what he's planning to do to us next???

Also, he did not ask to take the kids anywhere. Again, was he respecting my boundaries - or just placating me??

I told him I was going to take the kids to play pool one evening this week and asked him if he wanted to come along. I asked him what day would be best for him. He said he would really like to go with us and he had "nothing planned all week." He said I should call him any day and let him know.

I was cooking one of his favorite dinners near the end of his visit. When it was ready, I asked him if he wanted to stay and eat with us. He said he had to be going. After a pause of a few seconds, he said, "I have plans." I didn't ask what his plans were. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So, I still have no idea what is going on as far as financial support, the still unsigned custody/visitation agreement, or if his parents called him to talk to him about him no longer supporting us financially. But...it was a very pleasant visit.

Your interpretations???? Any ideas what is going on in the alien's head??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles, it is impossible to know what he is thinking, but I think it went really well. I suspect he is very confused right now and likely feels badly for threatening to cut off support. That would explain his desire to help around the house. He might have been hoping that you would pick a fight with him, too.

What is being done to resolve the support issue? Is your attorney workng on this?

And can you bring me up to speed? How long has he been gone? How long have you been in Plan A and what do you think attracted him to OW? Were you having trouble in your marriage?

I have filed for divorce (necessary here to get court-ordered support, but he won't be served until we reach a custody/visitation agreement. My lawyer wants to avoid him retaliating in anger, messing up the custody/visitation agreement. I did clear my half out of the joint bank account, to save for a rainy day.

He left on 01/25 (same as D-day), so he's been gone almost 3 months. I began Plan A about two weeks after he left. We had been taking each other for granted in the marriage. I went back to work full time two years ago, had worked from home before that. We were very busy with work and the children, not as much time just for the two of us. SF was great between us, and we rarely argued. He did seem to be going through a bit of a MLC (complained he was getting old, aches and pains, etc.).

From what I have heard about OW, she is quite a bit older than I am, less attractive, heavy, less educated, has a menial job, and is married and may or may not have left her family. The only thing WH said about her is that she comes over to his place, cooks, cleans, and usually goes home by 11 p.m. He has known her through his work for a few years, but, according to him, the PA has been going on for a year or so. I have never met her.

I know two of his greatest ENs are to be appreciated and taken care of. Maybe that's what she provides for him?

ok, when will this be happening? What are you doing to reach this agreement? Are you discussing this with him at all?

Is the OW still married? Are you in contact with her H? When I hear about an OW who is probably less intelligent, attractive than the W, it is sometimes because the H doesn't feel like a man around his W. He doesn't feel wanted or admired by you. Could this be the case? Do you think he felt admired and respected by you? Is that why he wants to come over and perform tasks for you? Do you think going back to work was a threat to him?

Remember what Gimble said earlier about thanking him for doing things around your house? I thought that was real good advice. Did you thank him for doing chores around the house?

Sorry to ask so many questions, Pebbles, I am just trying to get a good understanding here. I think things are going very well in your marriage and am just brainstorming some ideas.

MelodyLane, I'm glad you're asking questions. Maybe you can help me figure out what is going on!!

My mom, God bless her, says she thinks WH was looking for someone to feel superior to. I never thought he was in any way inferior to me. I always tried to stroke his ego, but apparently I wasn't doing it the right way. My mom, God bless her again, thinks WH may have been intimidated because he had gotten a little out of shape physically and I am very much in shape due to my home workout hobby. Although, he always complimented me on my shape and bragged about it to other people. I thought, and still think WH is gorgeous. I always told him so, too.

I have been thanking WH for the work he does around here. Maybe I didn't thank him enough before he left. It is possible that he didn't feel appreciated because I was so focused on work and the kids. Maybe he felt left out and neglected. I have told him that I am very sorry I made him feel this way.

Looking back, I can see that he was trying to keep me and the kids separate from his work friends. He said his work friends were "too crude" for us to be around. The place where WH works is mostly men, and they use a lot of rough language. WH never used curse words in my presence, and I have never cursed (out loud <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />).

Occasionally he would tease me about me thinking I was too smart for him because I have more education that he does. Again, I never thought I was smarter than he is, I'm not - and it's not like I have a master's degree or anything - just a BA and a teaching credential.

Yes, OW is married. I called her husband. Apparently they have some sort of "arrangement" where she has been living with him and their son on and off for the last few years. According to the husband, they are not in the process of divorcing. WH told me they were in the process of divorcing, and at first WH told me they were divorced. WH does know I called MOW's husband - and I did not tell him.

What a mess!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add: Just a thought. WH has said, more than once since he left, "You will be just fine." Maybe he doesn't feel like I need him enough? I have always been quite independent. He used to say he liked and respected that about me. But...how could I appear to need him more while not appearing too needy and desperate? I am supposed to appear as if I am getting on with my life as best I can, while still wanting to reconcile, right??? I'm so confused. It seems like whatever I do, it will be wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Did the OWH not care that his wife was having an affair with your H? What was his response to that?

I also suspect, like your mother, that your H feels inferior to you. It sounds like he wants someone who looks up to him and admires him. Might he feel that you don't look up to him and respect him? Men do like independent women, but they also want to feel needed and looked up to. I see lots of Plan A opportunities in this one.

No, OWH did not seemed surprised or upset. He did say that this wasn't the first time OW had done this. Maybe they have some sort of open marriage? He did not elaborate. However, someone did tell WH that I had called OWH - and it wasn't me.

It is possible that he feels that way, even though I never felt superior to him. His feelings of inferiority may also have something to do with his family. He has two brothers who are more educated than he is and work in finance-type jobs, and one other brother who is less educated but makes more money.

Edited to add: Sometimes when WH would see a fancy car, he would joke, "Don't you wish you had a husband who could buy you a car like that?" I told him no, I was happy with the husband and car I had. I have never been impressed with fancy cars, houses, etc. Maybe he wasn't joking?

I just remembered: One of the things WH told the MC about MOW (at our one visit)is that she is less educated than I am but she makes just as much money as I do (to put me "in my place," maybe?). WH and I had agreed for me to take this job, even though it is lower paying than working for a public school, so that I would be more available to care for our children.

Please, do share the Plan A opportunities you see. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am willing to try just about anything, but I don't want to be too obvious. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles, the Plan A opportunities I see revolve around showing him that you admire, need and look up to him. It seems he needs to feel needed by you. That is why he would come over and work on the house. So, your opportunity would be to show him how much you need and appreciate him. Look for opportunities to ask him for help, such as changing tires, fixing things, other things that he would be good at
that you are not good at. Look for opportunities to ask his advice.

Did you feel that the OWH would not be helpful in trying to do anything about the affair?

What about exposure opportunities at her workplace? Do they work together?

There are plenty of things he is good at that I am clueless about. I did mention to him yesterday that the shower head in the master bedroom was dripping. We stood there together in the shower and he explained about it needing some washers of some sort. He will be back to fix it. I have asked him to change my tires for me (I had a flat) and he has fixed my brakes. I guess more stuff will have to break around here. He definitely has more common sense than I do, too.

I didn't get the feeling that he cared too much about what his wife is up to. But I don't know the man personally, so I don't know how to judge his reaction.

They do not work at the same place, but their businesses have some sort of connection. I think her business supplies parts to his place of work. Apparently all of WH's work buddies know about and condone the affair. MOW is also a friend of WH's work buddies. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I can just picture them all hanging out together laughing at me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add: MelodyLane, re-reading posts earlier in this thread, you and Gimble seem to agree that I should be asking WH for help and advice. It makes sense to me. I just don't want to be too obvious. How many things can break around here? I'm trying to think of what else I can ask advice about, too. I don't want to overdo it so that he feels like he's being manipulated.

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
===========================
I can just picture them all hanging out together laughing at me.
===========================

This may not help you feel better, but if I caught my employees doing something like this, they would find themselves on a serious hot seat, and I would contact the vendor regarding the inappropriate behavior of the sales person. She would not be welcome again at my business.

Not all businesses are owned or managed by losers or morally bankrupt people. Have you considered exposure at work? I am not telling you to do it, but let's discuss it. What are the caveats? Is the owner or manager involved in their little affair klatch?

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble, I have read many threads here about exposure at work, but I have never seriously considered it myself...before now. I actually have no idea who is in on the sordid little secret at WH's or MOW's places of employment. I have only WH's word to go by, and his word is worth its weight in...doo doo. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> I do know that WH's employer likes to have a reputation of integrity. I wouldn't want WH to get in too much trouble at work, though. I want him to keep drawing a salary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I found out where MOW works, too. When I first mentioned to WH that I knew MOW's name, he asked me if I was going to "ruin her career" (she works in an auto parts store!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). Why would he be afraid of what I might do, if there was nothing to be afraid of?? Hmmm...

I had the guts to expose to WH's parents and OWH, but I have to admit I'm terrified of exposing to WH's or MOW's employers. Do you think it might help? How would I do it? Would I just walk in to her store and let it rip? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> What would I say? Gimble, it appears I need to be smacked upside the head with a friendly 2x4. Geez, I'm such a wimp.

Hi, Pebbles.

This is just a quick reply, I have to go sleep for a few hours :-)

In the mean time....

If I were her boss and I knew she was spending my time and money 'hanging with the boys' especially one she was sleeping with, I think that she would quickly find herself in a new position, or fired.

If I were his boss, and my company's reputation were at stake, it would also not be good. Every company has it's own rules. Regardless, the vendor would be on 'probation' so to speak. Vendors also don't like to lose accounts.

There is a lot to work with here.

The managers or owners of both businesses would be the prime targets.

I can see one of them not reacting, but not both. Even if only one reacts, it affects both businesses.

Looks like a winner to me.

Melody, WAT, opinions?

Gimble

Pebbles
Exposure, more than anything but prayer, saved my marriage.

Affairees HATE exposure because it exposes the bindings of their affair to the light of scrutiny. And in the overwhelming majority of cases those bindings are just not strong enough to persist.

In my own case my Squid had found " her soul mate" and OM would wait "1 year or ten years for her", when in truth their affair lasted exactly two phone calls after I faxed proof to OMs partner.

OM was going to drive up to see me and beat me up ( what a PITY he never did - I mean that) and Squid was writhing and spitting like a stabbed snake absolutely HATEFUL to me , the kids, her siser, everyone who had no sympathy for her.

I came to think of affairs as being like 8 year olds playing 'doctor s and nurses' in the dark. when Mom comes in and switches on the light you better be REAL dedicated to the game to carry on with Mom looking !

Exposure is the hardest thing to do, because it makes BS feel as though they are driving their WS into the arms of the affair. I know this feeling well.

Squid actually begged me "dont tell his partner, just because our lives are crap theres no reason to make his crap too". Oh yes there is, my dear...oh yes there is. Apart from the HUGE satisfaction I derived from knowing OM was avoiding crockery for a day or two and that the full consequnces of his actions were now tumbling upon him, the whip passed to MY hand.

Draw up a map, Pebbles, of the people you COULD expose to who would have the most of a stake in their affair. And expose first to the people whom the affairees would NOT want to know first.

I would advise against exposing to non-Christian girlfriends or mates because typically the girls just treat it as 'cosmo' gossip, and the men think its man's ways.

Spouses & beloved parents of both infidels is the way to go IMO.

And don;t fear losing bam bam, pebbles. You already lost him. You are getting him BACK through this.

all blessings

{{{{pebbles}}}}

Thanks, bOb and Gimble! I'm so pitiful. I should be sleeping right now. I have to get up to get ready for work in about 4 hours, and I'm suffering from laryngitis - not good for a teacher. I am just too wound up to sleep now.

I did expose to WH's parents, but they are being their own version of "supportive." To them that means crying to me and their other children that they are upset with WH, but being non-judgmental when they speak to him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I also exposed to MOW's husband, but he didn't seem to be surprised or upset. I think they may have an "arrangement" of some sort <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> (although WH did find out I called OWH without me telling him, hee hee).

I would like to expose to MOW's work. How is this best done? Should I go in in person and ask for the manager? Yikes, it seems so Desperate Housewives. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> But I'll do it, if necessary. It's not like I have all that much left to lose. It would kind of destroy WH's image of me as the cooperative, gullible, good girl, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Like you said, bOb, I've already lost WH. Maybe this would help break up the A, maybe no one would care. I'll never know unless I try.

I have also considered exposing to MOW's parents, with whom she lives off and on (according to WH). MOW is 46 years old, so I'm not sure how much influence her parents would have on her behavior. Thoughts??

I could use some advice on the actual mechanics of what to do, please. I'm pretty brain dead these days, especially with the lack of sleep, so even a skeleton script of some sort would be nice (pitiful, I know). Thanks for humoring me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You are not pitiful. Being an active BS is the hardest gig I know of. People reading my history remember the good stuff I did but not the chicken stuff. YES I exposed bravely, but retched in the bushes afterwards.

YES I behaved with loving distance from Squid and her in order to planA effectively, but regularly drove to a secluded spot and cried my eyes out where no-one could see.

Bravery isn't "not being scared" - its doing the right thing DESPITE being scared.

When your WH attacks you for exposing, remember to look him in the eye and calmly say " I told you I would do all in my power to resor our marrige. I do not like to see you this upset, but I did what I beleived was best for our marriage. It is not out of spite, it is out of love and a desire to get you to recognise the wrongness of your affair, end it and work on our marriage".

When I said that to Squid she replied " well you're not doing a very f'king good job of it are you ?????!!!".

That same spiteful, hard headed girl just kissed me a longing goodbye as she left to drive our DD11 to her friends house and to get our groceries.

You can do this pebbles. Nothing pitiful about fighting for your marriage.

Regarding a skeleton script for work exposure, remember I didn't expose to work - I exposed to 2 close friends, squids beloved elder sister and OMs 14 year GF.

I'll leave advice to someone who has exposed to a workplace.

{{{pebbles}}}

Hi Pebs - regarding workplace exposure, I advise you get the legal stuff, i.e., support, etc., settled before undertaking this. Duh! Right?

Once the legal stuff is settled I suggest you choreograph any additional exposure with Plan B. Send a copy of your Plan B letter to the employers, OW's H, OW, and H's parents. This way all see the same thing PLUS your sincere desires to rebuild the marriage.

Posted by bOb:

Bob, Bob, Bob. C'mon. This may be the most narrow minded, ridiculous thing I've ever seen you post here. This is not characteristic of you. You're smarter than this. Think about it: How many self-proclaimed "Christians" to we read about here actually conducting affairs? I'm not a Christian, but I'm the biggest proponent of exposure on this forum!

I'll accept your sincere apology.

I agree with WAT that you need to get your financial arrangements done NOW. Do it NOW and get it done before you expose to his boss and hers. And I very much think this would be a very good exposure. I would suggest sending them a letter - certified to only them - and tell them about the affair.

I wouldn't suggest going into Plan B until you have dealt with the exposure. THEN, go into Plan B. I think a little more time showing him that you can meet his needs is warranted though. When you go into Plan B, you want it to be when the last thing on his mind is your excellent Plan A. Hopefully, the exposure will cause so much conflict in his stinky little affair that you will look very attractive.

So, here are your priorities as I see them:

1. Get financial arrangement in order

2. Expose them at work

3. More Emotional Needs work

4. Plan B

Christians are expected to follow certain patterns when their friends are doing bad things in order to help their friend stop. Unfortunately, they don't always choose to follow this pattern. We also see good non-Christian folks like WAT who would do the right thing and bust a friend for such behavior. I do understand what Bob means, though, it is the standard that we should expect and like WAT alluded, it doesn't always happen and is not exclusive to Christians by any means.

WAT I only ever advise out of my own experience. I would be scared to advise further.

Squid's girlfriend I exposed to, who did not subscribe to a set of beliefs that support marriage used the information to fuel 'cosmopolitan' type gossipy discussions and 'you go girl, follow your heart' type Oprah horsesh*t advice.

The Christian friends I exposed to reminded Squid of her commitment and the scriptural ramifications of that, and did not gossip.

Perhaps a more worldly and PC way of describing good targets for exposure would have been " People who recognise the value and sanctity of marriage and who would by cultural affinity sponsor the upholding of the institution though crises" but I am not PC and I am a Christian. And the christianfaith, for all the flaws of many of its adherents DOES culturally support marriage.

Were I more learned perhaps I would include Sikh, Muslim and anarcho-syndiclist communists in that list but I am not.

I make no apology for advising out of my own experience.

If you have a personal way of determining a constituency of potentially effective exposees without actually interviewing them first, please post it instead of criticising well intentioned and proven examples.

God bless <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi again, bOb - I am saddened by your over generalization. If I applied my personal experience as the sole source of my knowledge, I would conclude that Catholics are unabashed adulterers. (OM in my case is a "devout" Catholic and my WS "became" Catholic as a result of her non-affair.) But I don't make such a silly conclusion. Based on my observations over my life time, one's religious following, or lack thereof, has little to do with influencing their integrity or human qualities. This is confirmed over and over again on this forum.


I don't know of a way. This includes determining their claimed faiths. Interviews may not do it, either. What people say they will do vs what they actually do when in such a situation can be very different. Thus one point we can agree on, it seems, is that the reactions of folks exposed to cannot be predicted. This is why exposure has to be undertaken with a realization that it may succeed marvelously - as in your case - or be totally ineffective due to lack or interest, morals, or whatever other human virtue is missing in the recipients.

But let's not get further side tracked by focusing on the effects of exposure on anybody else other than the infidels: it's what THEY think or worry of the exposure that's important. NOT what other people actually think. Sure, it helps if everybody shuns them and it hurts if some embrace them. But infidels can't predict what others will think any better than we can - as we have already agreed. It's the threat of being rejected - by those of us left in the world with the gumption to judge.

I suggest we drop this squabble.

WAT

Hi, Pebbles.

Quoting MelodyLane:
========================================
So, here are your priorities as I see them:

1. Get financial arrangement in order

2. Expose them at work

3. More Emotional Needs work

4. Plan B
========================================

WAT and MelodyLane and Bob all gave excellent advice. And you almost got to see a fist fight!! I AM just teasing :-)

Do call your lawyer about the separation agreement and push a bit. He is going to get mad, but that is to be expected.

Bob is very right about doing what you have to do because it is the right thing to do, not because you are brave. Every one gets scared, even hard cases like me.

Back to the Damsel in distress, as long as you are sincere in your affirmances of your husbands learned capabilities to diagnose and repair just about anything, then lay it on. If he can explain the inner structure of a faucet head to you while standing in the shower, then unless you are a hydraulic engineer, there is a lot to be gleaned, even if it is just for his sake.

Just paying attention and doing your best to be interested when he speaks of such things is admiration in ACTION to him. Speak it too. Do both.

Hubby has some obvious openings in his emotional needs. It would be a great shame to let John's wife fill them.

In my opinion, his talking about the money she makes versus your education was indeed an attempt in his own mind to put her on equal footing with you. That very likely means that she is simply not your intellectual equal. What you can get from this, is to let him know that you can and are willing to learn from him.

MelodyLane and you are close on his feeling of inferiority, but, it likely runs a bit different than you might think. I don't that he considers himself less intellectual than you, but he is incredibly frustrated that you refuse to recognize his accomplishments and knowledge.

My guess is that frustration is directly implicated in his resentment toward you, and partly why he chose John's wife to hang with. She probably only basically meets his need for admiration by default, since he does NOT see her as his equal.

All the best,
Gimble

Sounds like what MOW is giving him is the KISA feeling.

So how do you make him feel this for you?

This is easy (or was easy until he put on that armor that MOW likes so well). You become VERY honest about your humbleness.

You say things like this:

"I'm sorry I haven't appreciated you over the years for all the things you have done for the family. You are a great provider and a great man."

"I am scared about the future. I am worried about what life will be like alone."

You can bring him into your world by being honest about some of the turmoil that goes on your life...with work, with the kids. Tell him of your frustration, ask his advice.

I would be willing to bet you, like me, are so independent and such a rock...you just deal with things. You end up looking so perfect, when you are an angst-ridden mess sometimes...let him know that, that you are not perfect. Let him know when you are scared or angry. It knocks you off the pedestal he seems to think you are on...

MelodyLane, Gimble, bOb pure, WAT, and StillHereMakingIt, thank you so much for your input! It never ceases to amaze me that people who don't even know me would be so genuinely caring and helpful. And getting advice from all of you who have been there, done that is so valuable.


So it sounds like the general consensus is to proceed as above, which sounds practical to me. I heard from my lawyer's office that WH faxed back the agreement this afternoon. The assistant said there don't appear to be any new changes that would surprise me. Of course, I haven't seen it yet. If all is well with this version of the custody/visitation agreement, I guess the next step will be to have him served with the divorce papers so financial support can be court ordered. Serving him with the papers just seems so "real" and "final." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I will have to see if I can include some kind of correspondence with the papers that says that I still do not want the divorce, I am only protecting the children, as was recommended to me before.

If I wait until financial support is ordered, exposure of the A to their workplaces is still a few weeks off. I'll work on filling WH's ENs during that time.

It's funny (in a strange, heart-breaking kind of way), I've always thought of him as my knight in shining armor. I think I got lazy in letting him know that. I hope it's not too late. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

He really is and always has been great at fixing things. He has also always had a very strong work ethic, which I've always admired. It's a challenge to let him know I appreciate and admire him, when I only see him occasionally - definitely something to work on.

StillHere! I got to say some of these things to him just a moment ago!!!

I just got off the phone with WH. He returned my call about some questions I had about how to take care of the new filter and swimming pool chemicals, which he then offered to come by and take care of himself. I asked him if he wanted to play pool with me and the kids Thursday. We arranged a time. I am suffering from laryngitis right now, so I have a very hoarse, creaky voice. He asked me about my voice. I explained about being sick, adding that I was feeling a bit overwhelmed with all the things to be done (work, kids, house, etc.). I told him I was sorry that I hadn't appreciated all of the things he'd always done for our family. He didn't respond. I then asked him if he wanted to say hello to the kids - he did (DD wouldn't talk to him, though). On the way to give the phone to the kids, I joked that it was difficult to yell at my class today. He laughed and said, "I bet."

It wasn't the alien on the phone. It sounded like my H. His voice sounded very gentle. Maybe having a pitiful, creaky voice made him feel sorry for me. Maybe it just made him glad he wasn't here to have to take care of me. I'm probably analyzing too much - another of my many faults. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> It was probably just a phone call.

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
================================
I guess the next step will be to have him served with the divorce papers so financial support can be court ordered. Serving him with the papers just seems so "real" and "final."
================================

After the papers are served and signed, he will have something to say about it. Tell him the truth.

Hubby says: "I can't believe that the paperwork is finally done. This is really for the best."

Wife responds: "Hubby, I would never have filed if you had met your financial obligation to the children. I feel blackmailed. Regardless of that, I have no intention of divorcing you, and I will continue to fight for our marriage."

Once that is settled, it is time to get aggressive with the exposure. He still has to pay even if he doesn't have a job. He will be angry.

Look at it this way. There is no reason he should get to continue in his fantasy at your expense. If the affair is so wonderful, why are they not shouting about it from the roof tops. "HEY EVERYONE, LOOK AT US! I have dumped my wife and kids so that John's wife and I can play puppy love together. Isn't love grand !!!. All the guys at work think I am sooo coool !!"

What they are really doing is hiding it from everyone due to shame, but they cover the shame in another lie; "Secrets are just so much fun. I just love secrets, don't you? If all those people just walking around lost in their dull little lives understood this 'real thing' that we have together, they just couldn't imagine it. It would just be too much for them. Our love is just so special"

There is romance, and there is gag reflex. The above triggered the latter for me :-)

I am sorry that you are going through this.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble, you ROCK! I'm so glad to have you on my side. I don't know if it's the chardonnay I had or the lack of sleep, or both, but the gag reflex comment cracked me up.

I will definitely reply honestly about why I filed for divorce, when the time comes. I do feel blackmailed by WH taking away financial support.

Do you think any of my attempt at Plan A is actually breaking through the alien mind warp? I should go to sleep now, before I start thinking again (God help us). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Gimble.

Of course it is. He can't help but notice.

Many wayward spouses would just love it if the betrayed spouse would 'just understand' how important this thing they are doing is....

You are facing your pain and tribulation, face forward, in an upright and forthright manner. THAT is the right thing to do. It is what strong, brave people do. You keep your panic under control, and don't let the idea of what he is doing, rule you.

In real life, it is so much less that what you imagine. If you were not directly involved, and had to watch what they were doing, you would either be bored to tears, or you would be cracked up, bent over double, wondering how you are going to be able to catch your breath from the sheer hilarity of the proceedings.

I think that you are doing very well in a very tough situation. Try to get plenty of rest. It does matter.

All the best,
Gimble

Good job Pebbles. You're in better shape than me. My wife filed last week, so I had to retract my agreement to it. I had a great plan A last week and had hope, but she went South on me when she flew home. Became adversarial. Was planning to secretly hook up with other man this weekend. So, I cancelled my divorce agreement and secretly cancelled his plane ticket. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

She's alone in Paris now. She's blaming our failing relationship on me. You'll like this.


PLEAAASE. The only thing missing was stomping feet. I figure if I drive her crazy enough, she'll snap and come back to Kansas with Aunty Em!

Follow the path grasshopper. You can only control your actions. Be good girl! Post your picture too!

Gimble's been riding me for a week. I finally got an Atta Boy out of him today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Gimble and Sleepless.:)


I don't know about that. It sounds like you're taking control of your situation. I like the part where you cancelled OM's plane ticket. That should be good for a few fireworks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is one of those days where I'm feeling more depressed. It doesn't help that I can barely speak, my head hurts, and my throat is killing me. I just want to go home and pull the covers up over my head - but I have too much to do. And I can't even go to the doctor (for antidepressants or antibiotics) because my health insurance got cancelled!

This is one of those days when I wonder if anything I'm trying to do in my Plan A is having any effect at all. Am I just banging my head against the wall? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Time to end the pity party and go back to work.

I hope so, because I have a very vivid imagination. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Ick, ick, ick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

My lawyer faxed me the revised-revised custody/visitation agreement today. I told her I would agree to sign it as it was. I'll be getting the stipulation of 90 days of no contact between children and MOW. He will be getting one extra day/night of visitation. The rest is pretty much as we agreed when WH and I met in my lawyer's office so long ago.

Now the agreement goes back to him again, for his approval. I wonder if he'll sign it or if he'll want more changes. This could take forever!! And during this time, the children and I are without financial support, living on 1/4 of the income we had before WH left. Why is he dragging this out so long?? It's as if he wants to make me suffer, and now the children along with me. What is it he is trying to get me to do?

I think he knows that the children are my biggest weakness right now. Is he using them to try to control me? It seems he is having some of the bills sent back to me (some of the ones he had been diverting to a P.O. Box for several months). He knows I can't afford to pay them.

As far as I know, WH is still planning to meet us to play pool Thursday night. We had such a pleasant visit Sunday (at least I thought so), and the phone conversation we had last night seemed promising - or do you think it actually set things back? I can't even trust my own thoughts any more, I'm so confused.

It seems like a lot of the other BSs I read about here had some indication of hope from their WSs. My alien has always told me he doesn't want me to have false hope. I just want to reach in and jump start his cold, shriveled heart (but maybe MOW is handling that task right now).

I think I'll add a whiny, heartfelt aaaaaagh!!! Please, stop me before I post to my own thread again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Gimble, I just saw this again. Pebbles, get a grip!! I'm trying, really.

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
==============================
I think he knows that the children are my biggest weakness right now. Is he using them to try to control me? It seems he is having some of the bills sent back to me (some of the ones he had been diverting to a P.O. Box for several months). He knows I can't afford to pay them.
==============================

Unfortunately, many wayward spouses don't think twice about using children as pawns in their game.

He is playing hardball with you.

Don't worry too much about it. You are going to be playing some hardball yourself soon. Don't be vindictive, but step back and look at the situation as a whole (as best as you can). While I wouldn't call it a game since real people and children are involved, it is a battle, if not a war.

The problem with playing, from your vantage, is that you have to do it honest and clean with as much integrity as possible; making your part of the battle seem 4 times harder than what the wayward spouse is facing. Even so, it is the truth of your approach that is most likely to get the wayward spouse's attention.

What all that means is that you learn to fight smarter. That requires that you have your wits about you. To do that, you spend time learning how and why affairs happen, how to deal with one in progress, then ultimately, how to recover.

Knowledge is your new best friend, Pebbles. Truth is your sword and knowledge, your armor.

As for what your wayward spouse tells you, don't put stock in any of it. You can't. His moral base is in a very difference place than yours. You still value honesty, and consider that protecting your family is your highest calling. He does NOT see the world the same way right now.

A wayward spouse is a cheater. A cheater is a liar. You can't have one without the other. It is a simple fact.

When your husband decided to have an illicit affair, he had to shift his moral base to accommodate his actions and bad choices. If he had not done that, then he would likely be overpowered by guilt, and stop the behavior. Since his moral base is 'lowered', he doesn't have as big an issue with manipulation as you would.

So, you can't believe what he promises unless actions prove it. You certainly don't want to hold your breath every time he promises you something. If you do, you will often find your face blue from a lack of oxygen, and later, red from embarrassment and anger.

Please do read and re-read Dr. Harley's concepts and articles about affairs often. There are some links on the right side of this web page. Also, there is much to be learned from reading of other's experiences here.

You are still pretty raw from all this, and the learning curve is steep as hell, but you can do this. You are obviously an intelligent woman.

All the best,
Gimble

Oh, Gimble. I know this is a common story here, but my WH was such a good man before this. I've known him for 22 years and had never known him to tell a lie--before, of course, he started cheating (and I didn't even know!). He was the kind of man who would tell the truth even if it meant hardship to himself. I was so proud of him. I am so disappointed in him now, that he would lower his standards so much. I trusted him completely. I pray for his soul.

I'm sure he knows that I'm seething inside, now that our children are threatened. I'm sure he wants me to become a shrieking shrew. Or maybe he thinks I'll lie down and die, giving in to anything he wants in order to have his financial support. It must really worry/bother him that I haven't even let on that I know or care that he has withdrawn support.

I know he checks the status of the joint bank account almost every day. He has to know that I withdrew fairly large sums of money in the last week. He hasn't mentioned it. I don't plan on mentioning it, either. If he brings it up, I'll just say that I need to know I'll be able to feed our children and keep a roof over their heads.

I can feel a vice squeezing my heart when I think of my innocent, blameless, beautiful children being threatened and used. I haven't told them what their father is doing financially. I just tell them we can't go out to dinner or buy warm-weather clothes because we're "low on cash." They do know their father has a girlfriend. He told them. They also know she is married.

It kills me that the children have to lose some of their innocence this way. My son asked me Sunday, "Why are you being nice to Dad? He is being so mean to you!" I told him that I still loved his dad and I was trying to behave in a way that I could be proud of, following my beliefs.

Gimble, I will keep reading and re-reading all the information here. I also have Surviving an Affair, Torn Asunder, and Private Lies, all of which I have read cover to cover. When I get depressed and angry, I start to lose hope. The longer WH is gone and with each new betrayal he perpetrates, the more it seems like the happy ending/recovery is something out of reach for us.

But I'm not ready to give up yet.

Hi, Pebbles.

I am glad that you aren't ready to give up. This difficulty that you face is a long way from being a lost cause.

According to studies, men in general, are better at loving multiple partners than women are. The plus side to that is that he probably still cares, a lot. The downside is that his loyalties are very divided.

It is important that he see you in the very best possible light, even though you want to beat some sense into him.

There is a way to make some sense out of what your are doing. If you were in recovery with your husband, you would be working very hard at meeting his emotional needs. You don't want to do it now because it seems so unfair, and it is unfair. Still, there is no reason why you can't learn to meet his needs now, and be way ahead by the time you get to recovery.

Even if you end up divorced, the things you are learning and fixing, you will be able to carry with you forever. That means that should you eventually find yourself married to another person, you will have far fewer issues to deal with in a new relationship, and you will be more attractive as a potential partner to boot. That sounds like a win/win situation to me.

How attached to your house are you? Would you be willing to sell?

All the best,
Gimble

I agree. This is why I refuse to argue with him, no matter how hard he tries. Also, I haven't used any DJs since the first week or so after he left. It is also why I am trying so hard to act with integrity, although I am having to be a bit sneaky about having the divorce papers ready to serve (it's practical, in this situation). I will have to keep focused on making myself the more attractive choice, as opposed to MOW, no matter how much WH deserves a good spanking.

I am thankful that I have the opportunity to try to meet some of his emotional needs now, trying to make him feel appreciated and admired. I keep telling myself it's the alien I'm dealing with, not my H, so I can keep myself from giving him a swift round-house kick to the groin. I am afraid that once he starts taking the kids to his place, after the agreement is signed, that we won't spend as much time together. It will be more difficult to try to meet his ENs then.

Point taken. I could afford to lose a few issues I have lying around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


This may not be up to me. WH told my lawyer that he wouldn't want to make the children leave the only house they've ever lived in - but we know how much his promises are worth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> By the way, the house is in both of our names. It would cost more to rent a decent two-bedroom apartment than it costs to pay the mortgage on the house. We locked in at a low interest rate a long time ago. If we have to sell the house, it will only be because WH wants to punish me, a distinct possibility. He did threaten to make me sell the house when I wouldn't let him take the kids overnight.

Thanks again for your help, Gimble.

Wish me luck! The kids and I are on the way to meet WH to play pool (or maybe bowling - they're at the same place). I'm kind of surprised he is still planning to meet us there.

I'll be pleasant, fun, and bubbly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Even if it kills me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I feel like I'm some kind of undercover operative on a mission (cue Mission Impossible theme). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hope you are having fun, honey!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I thought it was a lot of fun! Which is good, confusing, scary? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> It seemed WH and I had more fun than the kids did, though. DD refused to play. DS ended up being happy, but he pulled away once when WH touched his shoulder.

It seemed like WH genuinely had a good time, too. He smiled a lot. He laughed at what I said (in a good way, not a mean way). He even slipped and called me "babe" once. I caught him checking me out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pool was a good choice. I'm terrible at pool. I didn't even know the rules. I asked him for pointers and took his advice. After I took his advice, I was able to actually hit the balls, sometimes even into the pockets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I was appreciative of his skill (he is good at pool). One time when he messed up, I said we should have a "do over" rule. He seemed to like that idea and suggested I use it a few times, too. He looked me in the eyes and smiled quite a bit.

There was absolutely no unpleasantness between us at all, no mention of visitation, financial support, etc. It was a great family outing, except for DD being pouty - and us going to separate cars and homes afterward.

So now I am totally confused (what else is new?). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Was he faking nice to me so that I will become more compliant (since being mean to me isn't working)? He seemed to be genuinely happy. But I was fooled for so long when I didn't know he was having an affair, maybe I'm reading him wrong. Maybe he was thinking, "This was fun. When I'm rid of Pebbles, John's wife and I can do this with the kids. That will be even better!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

So, what do you think?

That's great Pebbles. Sounds like my WW and I last week playing pool with DS. Now beware! I had such a good time that when she got back to Europe, I let my guard down and let her suck me into a circular argument, got testy and shot a few angry outbursts over the bow. Hung up on her too after she got nasty. She had refused to NC with OM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> DAMNIT! The problem was the fun we had together gave me hope. I thought I had an opening and let guard down. Somebody should have just shot me!!

As a result I got the alien messages on my other post.

You're doing great girl, just stay on your toes. We can't control them or even TEACH them. They're still under the influence.

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
=======================================
So now I am totally confused (what else is new?). Was he faking nice to me so that I will become more compliant (since being mean to me isn't working)? He seemed to be genuinely happy. But I was fooled for so long when I didn't know he was having an affair, maybe I'm reading him wrong. Maybe he was thinking, "This was fun. When I'm rid of Pebbles, John's wife and I can do this with the kids. That will be even better!"
=======================================

I think that you had a good time with your wayward husband, and that good time was had within reasonable constraints and boundaries that everyone respected. Nothing more, nothing less. You can't read tea leaves or his mind. Take it at face value. Good entertainment.

What you need to do for now, is something that guys are accused of all the time. Compartmentalize. You stick with your boundaries, and if he crosses one, you knock him back across it in under 2 milliseconds (figuratively, of course). Then you go on about your life. You don't condone his bad behavior. Just like a rebellious teen, address it and move on.

Don't forget that your kids have been betrayed just like you. They are having to deal with the loss of their father, and the same changes in his personality that you are privy to. They are ill equipped to deal with all this. You are having a hard time, they are too. Make sure that you make yourself available to them. Offer to answer any questions they might have, and be honest with them. Don't avoid their questions. That is part of being their hero.

One thing is for certain, you don't want them getting their "facts" from other children their age in similar circumstances.

You did good on the family outing. He noticed that the kids didn't have a good time. Make sure that you don't force him on them. Let him face his own bad choices.

All the best,
Gimble

***So now I am totally confused (what else is new?). Was he faking nice to me so that I will become more compliant (since being mean to me isn't working)? He seemed to be genuinely happy.***

Of course he's happy. Here's what he's thinking:

"Wow, this is GREAT! I can be married, get a girlfriend, move out and abandon my family, but my wife will learn to accept it! She'll still come out and bring the kids and we can still be a family whenever I feel like it! I can have a wife *and* a girlfriend *and* my kids, and they will all learn to accept living like this! My life is GREAT!"

This is the major problem I have with doing stuff like this in Plan A -- it allows the WS to believe that the BS will learn to accept the new arrangment and be okay with it, and thus the suffering of the BS and the family is greatly prolonged. But that is just me and I know most here don't agree.
Mulan

I understand mulan's observation about how Plan A can seem to "enable" an affair. Left in place indefinitely, it can.

That's why there's exposure and a Plan B.

A good Plan A sets up the "void" of Plan B. The WS gets to have it GREAT for awhile. In the meantime, we hope this also produces recognition that "GREAT" might not last and that exposure tips the scale for a mentally healthy, i.e., non personality disorder, WS to get their wits about them.

If exposure doesn't work and the BS can't avoid the LBs any longer, Plan B comes to the rescue and "GREAT" is suddenly pulled out from under the WS. Now it's only "great" with the OP and the WS either hunkers down, avoiding admitting a mistake, or has the courage to admit they may have been wrong all along. The "GREAT" contribution by the BS can begin to look pretty darn good. Imagine if the BS had not done Plan A?

Hi, Mulan.

Quote:
===========================
This is the major problem I have with doing stuff like this in Plan A
===========================

If you read back a page or two, there is a specific plan in play for Pebbles.

Just as WAT said, the current behavior certainly is not forever.

All the best,
Gimble

WH always seemed mentally healthy to me. He had seemed somewhat depressed in the last few months, and still does, I think. I thought he was going through a midlife crisis (complaining of getting old, etc.). Apparently leading a double life is stressful and can make one depressed.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> At our one and only visit to the MC, the counselor said he thought WH was depressed. WH replied that he was only depressed when he was with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Mulan, this is what I'm hoping I will be able to accomplish with my Plan A. As WAT said, though, I won't be in Plan A for an indefinite period of time.

Also, I'm hoping that going through the ordeal of setting up a visitation/custody agreement and hearing about the amount of child/spousal support he will be paying will insert some reality into La La Land. One of my BIL's told me that WH is very stressed over finances right now (good!). Also, WH was extremely upset when I wouldn't let him take the children overnight without a visitation agreement (a little reality check?).

Exposure so far (to his parents and MOW's husband) has not seemed to have much of an effect. WH must have noticed that our children have been affected by what he has done, but he has said, "They'll get used to it soon."

Besides my own family, I have also exposed to the people I work with (who are also people WH is in contact with because our daughter is a student in my class). I have noticed that WH has not visited the school since he left us. He has said he wants to pick DD up from school sometime, so maybe he isn't bothered by the fact that everyone at the school wants to give him a piece of their mind. He actually seems to think that everyone will be okay with what he has done. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But, Gimble, a crystal ball and/or tea leaves are what I want (insert temper tantrum)!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> It would makes things so much easier to understand.

WH still hasn't signed the visitation/custody agreement, so I won't be allowing the children to spend the weekend at his place this weekend. We'll see if WH even asks. I will work on compartmentalization - a tough skill for me.

One of my worries (among all the others) is that my children never mention WH, unless I talk about him first. Even if I bring up the subject, they won't say more than one or two words. My parents, with whom the kids spend a lot of time, say they've never heard either child mention their father since he's left. The kids have to be thinking about him and the situation.

I hope he's noticing how the kids are feeling. His fog is so thick that he thinks they'll be fine in no time. He is still under the impression that he, the kids, and MOW will play happy family now, without any adjustment period (even though MOW's own child lives with his father and rarely sees her).

Okay, status report on Plan A in last week or so:

Trying to meet WH's ENs: positive visit last Sunday, positive? phone call Tuesday, positive family outing Thursday.

Boundary setting/reality checks: called MIL&FIL and mentioned no financial support, faxing back and forth visitation agreement, refusing to let WH take kids overnight w/o agreement.

Personal growth: self-improvement, reading - here and recommended books - to learn about affairs

Next, finalize visitation agreement, serve divorce papers to secure financial support (with disclaimer that I do not want divorce)...then more exposure.

Right now...dinner for kids, Nyquil and a long nap with the dogs for my cold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
=========================
The kids have to be thinking about him and the situation.
=========================

No doubt they are, and no doubt they probably know more than you think.

I am sorry for not remembering, but I don't recall the kids ages.

Do make sure that you are open and honest anytime they have a question about your situation. Plan some fun things to do at home just with you and the kids. Nothing forced, something very relaxed but fun.

Quote:
=================================
I hope he's noticing how the kids are feeling. His fog is so thick that he thinks they'll be fine in no time. He is still under the impression that he, the kids, and MOW will play happy family now, without any adjustment period (even though MOW's own child lives with his father and rarely sees her).
=================================

He notices. whether it is conscious or not, it will pop out at him sooner or later. It is hard not to notice your child pull away when you touch them. He may pour some fog juice on it to make it go away, but he noticed.

The reason that most wayward spouses want to involve themselves with each other's children, is in an effort to legitimize their affair, and to some degree, to placate the nagging sense that they are not being a good parent right now. They know they should be doing better, but meeting the chemical need is more important to them.

I like your plan, and your approach to get it done, Pebbles. It is a hard thing to do, but you are facing it head on. That is what heros do.

God bless,
Gimble

My son is 13-1/2 and my daughter is 9-1/2. Both children know their father left us for a married woman that he loves more than he loves their mother. He told them this himself (all but the part about her being married). DS found out about her being married and informed his sister.

Gimble, what really worries me is that they do not ask any questions at all! They never even talk about him of their own volition. I wish they would.

When I ask them about how they are feeling, they have very little to say. DD says she doesn't care that her dad is gone and that she is used to it, but she won't talk to him on the phone and ignores him when she sees him in person. She is also very clingy with me (she wasn't before). DS asked once if his dad was going to hell. I gave him the generality that whether a person goes to hell or not is between him and God. DS asked a few questions about adultery on one occasion, which I answered honestly. He seems to be very angry, but he seems to want to avoid conflict with his father and tries to be pleasant. Neither child has asked if their father is coming back - or has said that they want him to.

DS cried once when WH told the kids about MOW. I have never seen DD cry at all.

I hope they are not trying to spare my feelings by not talking about their dad. I would like to get them into some kind of counseling during summer vacation. Both children are very shy with strangers and I am afraid they wouldn't open up with a counselor, especially DD, but it's worth a try.

Should I talk to them more about what is going on? And if I do, what else should I tell them? I have told them I think what WH is doing is wrong and that it hurts me - and that I know it's hurting them. They also know I still love their father and that it's okay with me if they want to see him. Neither child asks to see him or call him.

We take the dogs on long walks. We also have "literature hour" where both kids sit next to me and I read to them, usually literary masterpieces like the Captain Underpants series.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> We do other things, too, like puzzles, board games, etc.

I hope he notices. He used to have such a close, loving relationship with them, that he is now ruining. Looking back, WH did pull away from them the last few months before he left. I attributed it to midlife crisis and work stress, but now...

Ick. During the visitation/custody planning, my lawyer told WH that I was willing to give him one extra day of visitation, if he was willing to agree to my stipulation of no contact between children and MOW for 6 months. He would not agree. Having time with MOW was more important to him than having his children for an extra day.

Thank you, Gimble. Your advice has been so helpful and encouraging. And the occasional friendly 2x4 is welcome, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I always look forward to your replies. There would be no plan without you and the other MBers who have been kind enough to help me.

I was just thinking, it's amazing what you can survive when you have no other choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I was also thinking, why are all of my posts soooo looong? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
=============================
Should I talk to them more about what is going on? And if I do, what else should I tell them? I have told them I think what WH is doing is wrong and that it hurts me - and that I know it's hurting them. They also know I still love their father and that it's okay with me if they want to see him. Neither child asks to see him or call him.
=============================

With your son nearing 14, if he is not getting answers from you, he is likely getting them somewhere else, or at least has his ears attuned to what others in his age range are saying about adultery and divorce.

I think that you may want to tell them simply, that if they want to talk about it with you, you will answer any of their questions openly and honestly.

Since you had tried pushing father and kids together some, you might need to address that before they will feel comfortable opening up - possibly an apology to the kids is in order. They may very well believe that you want them to be 'okay' with him. Especially your son. Sons get much of their identity from their mothers. He may not understand your seeming acceptance of husband's activities.

Quote:
======================================
Ick. During the visitation/custody planning, my lawyer told WH that I was willing to give him one extra day of visitation, if he was willing to agree to my stipulation of no contact between children and MOW for 6 months. He would not agree. Having time with MOW was more important to him than having his children for an extra day.
======================================

A wayward spouse will often choose the other person over their own children, hence the need for a betrayed spouse to be extra vigilant for their children.

His reasoning is that the sooner he gets them introduced, the sooner the kids will come to accept the situation. The fact is, that outcome is uncertain at best. Often, the kids, especially the older ones, will never accept the position of the new 'parent' and will often 'act out'. I hear of fathers and mothers demanding that their children respect the 'other person'. While that type of behavior is to be expected of a wayward spouse, it rarely fails to anger me.

Your children are very fortunate to have a mother like you.

God bless,
Gimble

If you want a strategic advantage it can be arranged if your husband has net mail. I put Keylogger software on my home computer, so when my wife came over last week to use it, I got her password to her E-Mail account and have been tracking her correspondence between OM, her mom, etc.

Worked great.

It's a good idea, Sleepless, but WH's MOW girlfriend (seems strange calling someone 6 or 7 years older than I am a girl) took care of that. She gave him her laptop to keep at his place. Isn't that sweet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> I found this out after I tried to look up info on my car insurance online and I found "their" e-mail address on the insurance account (it's a combination of his and her first names <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />).

Gimble, I got to talk to my kids a lot this evening about our unfortunate situation. It was unplanned, but necessary, because:

The kids and I went to the gas station to fill up the car. I tried to use the one joint credit card that WH didn't take with him when he left, the card he said I should use if I needed anything (he gets the bill). Well, the gas machine said I had to go inside and see the cashier. When the kids and I went inside, the cashier got a strange look on his face and stared at me. He then called the manager, who also looked at the credit card approval machine and looked at me strangely. The manager told me they had to keep my card and I couldn't have it back. I was so embarrassed!!! Right in front of my children!!! I felt like a criminal. I have never had anything like this happen before. WH must have taken me off the card. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it was so humiliating!

Apparently WH is serious about playing hardball. Now I have no credit card and no income coming in except my tiny little private school paycheck. I get two checks a month. One just barely covers the mortgage. We will have to live on the other check for the entire month to pay for groceries, PG&E, phone, everything. It will not be possible.

I have to use the money I took out of the joint account to get new health insurance for a few months. My daughter is having trouble with her eyes and needs an eye exam (we have no vision insurance, either). My son's braces payment is coming up. Neither child has warm weather clothes that fit.

All this after the somewhat promising visit last Sun., phone call Tues., and family outing Thurs. He will probably want to come over and see the kids tomorrow. Maybe the kids and I will have plans (DS already does have plans).

I don't want to serve the divorce papers until the visitation/custody agreement is signed (which WH is stalling). Being optimistic, it would be at least 3-4 weeks after he is served before we could get a court date to order financial support. It will probably take longer than that.

One of WH's brothers and his wife have told me that they would help the kids and me financially, if necessary. They are quite well off and could afford it. I don't want to beg...and I don't want to call WH's family asking for help. My parents have already loaned me money for the lawyer. They are retired and on a fixed income. I don't want to ask them for any more. Should I swallow my pride and call my BIL and SIL? Should I call my MIL and FIL again? Should I ask WH for money??? What should I do???

Anyway, the kids asked why the cashier took the credit card and why I wouldn't take them out to dinner (our Saturday evening ritual). My son asked if we were having money problems. I tried to explain without scaring them. I told them that no matter what I had to do, they would be taken care of. They also asked a few questions about what their dad was doing. I answered honestly.

Please, aliens, send my H his brain back! I am really not enjoying MOW's boyfriend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What to do now?????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm so sorry Pebbles, how awful for you and your kids to be subjected to that.

You guys are going to be okay Pebbles, you and the kids. You're a great mom.

When WH falls he is going to hit like I brick. I can't help it but he is the one I pity.

You seem like such a class act, I wish this wasn't happening to you.

I read your threads always, but you are getting such good advice, I hesitate to jump in.

Tonight I just wanted to give you a big hug, and say hang in there. It won't be long until happiness find you again, I just know it.

{{{{{{Pebbles}}}}}

Hi, Pebbles.

Here is what I suggest.

If your brother in law offered help, take him up on his offer. When he asks what you really need, don't minimize, tell him the truth about what your financial needs are. He may not be able to meet them all, but he will know if he is helping or not. No need to suffer silently.

Call your husband, and in a very matter of fact manner, tell him that his withholding of money is hurting the children. Then ask him what his intentions are. If his demand is access to the children on his terms, then tell him thank you for telling you, and hang up. Be sure to write down everything he says, and time and date the conversation. Give a copy to your attorney.

Don't cry, plead or get angry. Don't be nice. Be polite but somber. This is serious stuff he is doing.

I will tell you that courts don't look kindly upon abandonment, and that is what he is doing. I will bet that his lawyer does not agree with his tactics. Contact your lawyer Monday and ask if she can get a emergency hearing setup. Make sure that you lawyer is up on the facts of your case. If your lawyer is female, make sure that she intends to dress conservatively in the courtroom. Before you go to court, make sure that you ask for advice from some of the ladies here that have had good success in court.

I know you wont like this, but there are food stamps, and other possible avenues open to you. They may not sound like fun, but it may just wake your husband up.

I wouldn't contact your mother or father in law again.

FIM, if you are reading, do you have suggestions on the money issues for Pebbles?

Good job with your kids.

I am sorry for your embarrassment. Don't worry about it. Falsely reporting credit cards as stolen is a felony. You can cancel a credit card without reporting it stolen.

Lastly, your husband is being coached. Other woman is now instructing him how to handle you and the kids. That will account for the sudden shift to weird that you are observing in him.

God bless you,
Gimble

Hello Pebbles:

YOu probably don't know me as I have never posted to you before. I have read your ordeal and I feel profoundly sorry for you and your children. I can feel the pain and suffering in your posts. I can't ever imagine having to act "bubbly, and happy" around your husband and conducting a charade so he can see the "best of you". This is defintely plan A. I hope that you can still have some self esteem and dignity left before you are forced to do Plan B or whatver other startegies you try to win your WH back.

I can only imagine how embarassed you must have felt in front of that gas attendant, and what your children must have felt. Your children are certainly able to "understand" what is going on, and trust me, they know what that cashier taking your CC meant. Children carry this kind of $hit around for years. Please remember all of this as you do the plans here and try to get your WH back. The kids "know". They see the stuff that your WH is doing to you and them. THEY KNOW. The Alien talk is nice and funny, but in reality, that won't help your kids deal with this. I don't know what I am trying to say to you, but just to let you know that I am praying for you.

I still struggle so very much reading about the pain that BS suffer at the hands of Wayward Spouses. I wish that I had the power to make it stop or ease your pain. Maybe it is my professional background that makes it so damn hard for me to read the struggles of BS here and not be able to do anythign about it. I HATE INFIDELITY!

Please know that I am praying for you and your children. I hope that you remain safe and that someway,somehow you survive this with your dignity and self respect intact. PLease act as how you would advise your beautiful daughter to should she face the same situation in the future. Would you encourage her to act all bubbly and happy while her cheater husband has left her and the children for another woman. Would you tell her to do what you are doing? If so, great. Just make sure you remember this as you go through this nightmare. YOur daughter is going to "learn" alot from all of this and "carry" with her the lesosns from al of this. I hope that in the end you get your cheating husband back. I do, if that is what makes you and your family happy. You are a good woman and person.

The things that your WH is doing to you and your children and has done cannot be brushed off to an "alien" doing this. This is the man you married and this is the man he has become.....THIS IS THE MAN HE IS. I am sorry to those that are offended by all of this, but a MAN does not leave his wife and children and do the things that Pebbles husband has done. GOOD MEN DON"T DO THIS. Many will argue against what I said, and that is their right. This is just my opinion.


With the best of intentions AS ALWAYS

LM

Hi Pebbles,

Like weaver, I read your thread. Like weaver, I think you are going to be great. That doesn't take away the crap now or make the steps you must take now any easier, I know. The credit card thing was quite a blow, and probably just the beginning. I figure that this is a time when knowing that you have silent supporters (I suspect you have many) might help you feel more encouraged.

I agree with Gimble about getting financial help from BIL and SIL.

I also agree with Gimble about food stamps. That's why we have programs like that Pebbles. I know that there are many who use and abuse the system, but situations like yours is really what those programs are for. Your tax money paid into it for others, and now you are the one in need. Use it, that's what it's for.

So Gimble says that falsely reporting a credit card as stolen is a felony? Sounds like something to look into -- a well timed mention of that to your WH might come in handy some time, kwim? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Take care Pebbles

Hi, Pebbles.

I may be wrong on the falsely reporting credit cards stolen, being a felony. It is a crime in many states. My understanding was, that it is a felony, but since I can't my facts, I will research and get back to you.

Regardless, he can get in trouble for it in most places :-)

More later,
Gimble

Thank you so much for posting, weaver, lemonman, LovingBoundaries, and Gimble. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your support.

weaver: I have to say, more and more I am deeply embarrassed for WH about what a jerk he's being - and he doesn't even see it. He still thinks he is completely justified in everything he is doing.

lemonman: I am also concerned about what my behavior is teaching my children. I don't want them to think that someone can treat them like garbage and they should smile and take it. I am trying to explain to them why I am doing what I am doing. I have to admit that the more cruel things WH does, especially to the children, the more respect I lose for him - and now, the more respect the children lose for him.

LovingBoundaries: I will look into food stamps, if I absolutely have to. I promised my children that I would do whatever I have to do to protect them - and I meant it. I am also going to look into a low-income health insurance program that is offered where I live. I never thought I'd have to use these programs. This has made me more sympathetic to people who must rely on government assistance.

Gimble: I am going to call my BIL and SIL tomorrow and take them up on their offer to help us. It may have an added benefit of them calling WH to give him a piece of their minds. I took your advice and called WH tonight. It does sound like WH is being coached by MOW. I don't think a lawyer would tell him to withdraw financial support, although I have heard that some less ethical lawyers recommend this strategy to make the other party more compliant due to desperation.

I called WH. I told him about what had happened with the credit card and told him how not providing financial support was hurting the children and me. He blamed everything on me. To my credit, I did not get angry, cry, or beg. I may have tried to explain too much.

Edited to add: He said he cancelled the credit card because he lost his card. Yeah, right. He never loses anything to do with financial business. Also, if that were the case, he could have told me I wouldn't be able to use it.

He went ballistic, not really angry, but very cold and cruel, non-stop accusations. He said that none of this would have happened if I had stood by the agreement we had that he got to take the kids every other weekend. I reminded him that the agreement had not been signed by him because he wanted to change it. He said that shouldn't matter, that I should have let him take the kids anyway, that I was not their only parent, that I should have taken his word for it that MOW would not be there, that it was none of my business if MOW was there, that the kids would have to get used to her (logical, huh?). I told him that I wanted to trust him, but that as long as he was having an affair with John's wife I couldn't trust what he was telling me.

I couldn't get a word in edgewise through most of this, so I just listened.

He also said that if I had continued to put all my money into the joint account like he wanted me to, he would have continued to put money in too. He said that it was sneaky of me to open my own account (which I opened after he left, after he had his own account for months - I didn't say this part). He said he would provide no money until I honored my agreement about letting him take the kids, that we had reached an agreement. I did get a word in here. I said that I thought we had reached an agreement too, but that he had not signed it. He then said that he didn't sign it because he wanted things changed (so how is it an agreement?). I said nothing.

Also about the agreement (and child support? life in general? he kind of lost me in his "logic"), he said, "It's not fair that I'm the one who has to give up everything." He also said that withdrawing financial support was what he had been advised to do. He didn't say who advised him. I'm thinking it was MOW.

I ended the conversation by asking if he intended to provide any financial support. He said not until I let him take the kids when he wanted to. I said, "Thank you for telling me what I needed to know. Good-bye." He angrily said good-bye as I was hanging up.

So he's the one who has to give up everything??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Anyone want to take a shot at translating this alien transmission into human language? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
=================================
Anyone want to take a shot at translating this alien transmission into human language?
=================================

Here you go:

"Wife, it is all your fault that everything is the way it is. If the sun does not shine tomorrow, it will be your fault.

I am withholding money from my children because that is the nearest thing to a choke hold that I can put on you to get my way without going to jail, and because the other woman told me I have to be firm with you.

Besides, all this has to be your fault or I would have to be responsible for these actions and that is impossible since I am not a monster; at least other woman says I'm not.

I trust other woman because I believe she has my best interest at heart, but mostly because she makes me feel good, and I deserve to feel good about me."

I hate that you had to endure his diatribe.

From this point on, if he can't speak to you in a calm manner, tell him you you will only converse with him if he is calm. If he won't calm down, hang up or walk off. This does mean that you can't yell or scream at him either.

Until he signs the agreement, no more including him in family activities. No unsupervised visits with the children.

Continue to be pleasant. No love busters.

Quote:
================================
I ended the conversation by asking if he intended to provide any financial support. He said not until I let him take the kids when he wanted to. I said, "Thank you for telling me what I needed to know. Good-bye." He angrily said good-bye as I was hanging up.
================================

That is a good thing to know. He gave away his plan. You did good. No wonder he was mad.

I am especially interested to know how the kids react to his next call.

Please let us know what brother-in-law does.

God bless,
Gimble

Translation: WS will continue to have a tantrum until he gets what he doesn't know he wants.

If you allow yourself to get caught up in his WS drama, you w/b doomed to fail. Why? Because that is the WS objective. Your life and security of your family is NOT the priority of a WS.

Protect yourself and your family, do not apologize for taking secure measures to protect yourselves.

Learn to reverse babble and don't get sucked into his manipulative ways to blame you for his errors. BTW, he isn't giving up much in fact he is living high on the A at the expense of your family. All the more reason to think about enacting a plan B.

When my WS babbled and threatened as such, I learned to tell him that if that was the best he could do, then he needed to do what he needed to do. Basically babbled back and didn't give him any info. That sent the WS and OW wild. They would converse (especially the OW) about how I must be up to something. Yes I was, protecting myself and damagin the A. I learned to shoot long range missles at the A via reverse babble. I learned that the OW was tiring of the WS since she already had him in her clutches and that she was setting her sites on controlling me. I stopped that piece of garbage and made her wonder everyday what I might be up to. That was fun to know that she claimed to live in fear of what little ol Orchid might do to the massive OW. LOL!!!

L.

Sorry to quote myself, but this statement was making my blood boil and I couldn't sleep. The phone call tonight was the second time I've heard WH say it. The other time was when the lawyer called him while I was in her office and she put him on her speaker phone so I could hear the conversation.

It's not fair that he has to give up everything?? He didn't just give us up, he crumpled us up with both hands and stomped on us, and threw more garbage on top of us after we were in the Dumpster. Besides, he made a choice to "give up" everything to enjoy his "special" love with his married other woman. The kids and I were never given a choice.

Yes, I still see my part in contributing to the environment that led to WH's affair. I was not a perfect wife...but I wasn't a horrible wife, either. Plus, it would have been nice if he would have let me know what I was doing and not doing that bothered him so much. I would have done just about anything for him. I never did anything to him that would justify treating me this way, and our children certainly never did anything to deserve this treatment.

I think the children and I are "giving up" a lot more than WH is.

I'm taking a Benadryl and trying to get some sleep.

Gimble, thanks for the translation of the alien nonsense. I'll call BIL and SIL tomorrow (or today, I guess, it's Sunday already).

Orchid, your reverse babble is a thing of beauty. I'll try to use it as much as possible. It would be great if I could make MOW and WH worry about what I might be up to (maybe they do).

You're right, I can't let myself get caught up in the WS drama. I usually do pretty well to stay calm, not that you could tell by my last post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I'm trying to vent here, so I don't give WH the arguments that he so desperately wants.

I'm hoping MOW might be doing some LBing to WH. If she really is coaching him about how to handle the kids and me, I would think he would soon tire of being controlled, especially if it doesn't work to control me. Also, I noticed that when he is with us, he checks his cell phone quite often to see if he has missed a call. Maybe MOW has him on a short leash.

Of course, these are my ramblings. Maybe he likes how MOW handles him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Orchid!

Good points. I wonder how long I should continue Plan A? WAT suggested I Plan A until the legal arrangements are in place, when and if that ever happens. That would probably be a good time to start Plan B, do you think? I wonder if I've done enough in Plan A to actually make any difference.

Okay, off to bed. I must be stopped before I post again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Okay, one more post, then I'll really go to bed.


Thanks, Gimble. I have to admit, though, I did hold the phone away from my ear a few times while I rolled my eyes and made faces. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> The fogese he was shoveling was pretty thick.

Pebbles,

Ok, this is where you get to have some fun and shine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> How? Well you get to 'LB from afar' and keep that OW 'wondering'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I often go 'hm.....' and just give that look of wonderment when the WS used to do or say something stupid. The WS in my case even took on the speaking character of the OW. It was weird, his choice of words changed and he babble just like her e-mails. It was very strange. When I pointed it out to him he at first denied it but when I pointed it out again at a later time, he looked scared. I think he had been noticing that himself and it bothered him. Ok, that was 1 LB from afar.....I built on that and even told him he 'smelled different, kinda stinky'. LOL!! That was a riot. OW had 2 german shepards and I just made him think that some smelly thing was stuck to his clothing. LOL!!! It then would make him think about if he was smelling or not when he was around the OW.... ha ha ha.... every time I thought there was contact and he was around us, I would bring up the smell issue. I would sniff the air and wonder out loud 'what was that smell, WS. Did you get a wiff of that? It smells kind of moldy or stinky? Where have you been? Did you step or wipe yourself on something?' It was funny and it worked. Made the WS uncomfortable and he was not able to attack me with his WS anger.... he was too busy trying to 'figure out that smell'. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

OW in my case wanted to coach the WS into getting a D. She did research and send him an e-mail with at least 5 different sites that would help him get a 'quicky D'. She offered to help more.....but you know, I was shooting LB missles so it never matured to anything more than a bunch of babble.

OW gave the WS a list of demands for the 'privilege of living with her'. It included:

1. dropping of my then 6 year old son in a vacant parking lot so the WS would not have any contact with myself and his family or friends).

2. WS was not allowed to see or speak with me for 1 year.

3. WS was not allowed to see his son more than once a week.

4. WS was not allowed to see his family or friends (because they might talk him out of having an A). LOL!!

5. WS had to keep his mail going to a PO Box for 1 year until she could 'trust' him.

6. WS was to give OW $900+ per month as his share of the cost and privilege of living in her home with her 2 dogs and 1 B!tch. Oops <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Did I say that?!?!?!

There was more things because the list was about 16 items long. Well that list did not go over well with the WS even in the fog.

So my take is let the OW try to sink her claws into the WS. See how the WS likes it. Don't try to save the WS from that pain. Unfortunately most don't learn until they bleed from the A.

In the meantime, take care of you. Save your stength for later. Reverse babble when you can and let the OW be her own worst enemy. Remember not only is the OW a bad influence.... she stinks. LOL!!!!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

Pebbles,
I read your posts everyday. Although I'm in no position to give advice, I wanted to let you know that I'm praying for you and your family. The aliens seem to underestimate the power of a woman protecting her family. You go girl! I know you will be as strong as you need to be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I haven't got the energy to read all 10 pages, but just caught up on the last two. I just wondered whether the credit card was stopped because the card might have been over the limit - no chance that he's got himself into a pile of debt in pursuit of his A? (My WH did). Also, if he isn't prepared to give money for support, how about him bringing over the shopping. Send him a list, tell him this is what you and your children need. Then email a copy of this to your BIL. He should be ashamed of himself, but sadly, I bet he isn't. It is a nightmare having to deal with financial problems on top of all the affair crap. I am so sorry that you find yourself in a similar place to me. It sucks.

Orchid, I'm still laughing about how you made your WH think he smelled. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That list the OW gave him is incredible! I hope my MOW self-destructs the same way. I never kept my WH on a short leash, I trusted him (bad idea, I guess) and I never tried to control him and tell him what to do, like it appears MOW does. Who knows, maybe he has an EN to be told what to do? I would think most men would find it annoying, but what do I know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, confused42 and tucktummy, for your support. I'm sorry you are going through this, too.

I don't think the credit card company cancelled the credit card because it was over the limit. The cashier asked the manager what the code on the approval machine meant. The manager told him it meant the card may have been reported lost or stolen. It was very thoughtful how this information was explained to the cashier in front of my children and the other customers standing in line. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

WH, during his diatribe last night, mentioned that he was still paying the bills for two credit cards (to show that he is still paying some of my bills?). Funny, I do not have those two credit cards, so none of the charges on them would be mine. WH has always been pretty careful with credit. In fact, he told me that one of the things he respects (gag) about MOW is that she doesn't use credit cards. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Now that he is a different person, who knows what he doing.

My lawyer did say that when we go to court to order financial support she can include something about how any charges made after the date of separation (Jan. 25) would have to be paid by the person who made the charges.

Start thinking outside the box young lady. My wife has her own laptop too. However, if the software is on your computer at home, and he comes to watch the kids one night for some reason, you may get his E-mail password on your computer. That's how I had to do it.

It has provided me a distinct advantage to KNOW she's lying and how much. I can direct my comments to better take advantage of her guilty feelings.

"Guesses" I make are much more close to home than she can imagine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Exposure news (sort of):

It appears that exposure to WH's work may be, to some extent, out of my hands. I found out from a friend I work with that there are quite a few people in her church group (church connected with the school where I teach) who have decided to boycott WH's business because of his unethical behavior. My parents and extended family have boycotted his business since this mess started.

My friend even said that some of the group were thinking of compiling a list of signatures of people who will no longer be frequenting WH's business and sending it to the owner.

My name and the names of my family members are not on the list, and I am not involved in the making of the list, so I don't think I could get in trouble for libel, if they actually send it. Besides, the statements about WH's lack of ethics would have to be untrue to be libel.

Hmmmm, interesting...

Edited to add: I am not a member of the church involved in the boycott, but many of the people I work with are members.

Also added: Wow, I am just floored that these people would do this! I don't even know some of them. It just gives me goosebumps.

He has been over here before when I've spent some time in the other room. Maybe he'd use the computer then, but I doubt it. For some reason, he doesn't trust me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Thanks, Sleepless, I'll keep the option open.

Very cool that the community is behind you. Actions have consequences as he's finding out. It's going to be pretty hard for him to justify his actions with almost NOBODY'S support.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Sleepless, hopefully the consequence of losing business will counteract his enabling parents and coworkers. I hope so.

Unexpected Visit:
Today WH showed up at the front door unannounced, his hands full of pool supplies. He didn't mention anything about coming over today when we had our lovely conversation last night. I tried some of Orchid's reverse babble. Here's how it went:

Me (with confused look): Oh, hi, WH. I wasn't expecting you.
WH: I always come over on Sunday.
Me: You do come over some Sundays, like today, sometimes other days.

WH: I tried to call several times today, but there was no answer. Where were you?
Me: No answer? Not home.
WH: Where did you go?
Me: Oh...(shrug).

**He could have left a message or called me on my cell phone. It's not like we just sit around all day just in case he wants to play family.***

He did some chores in the back yard and garage. I busied myself with schoolwork and chores inside. He came inside to talk to DD. She didn't have much to say. DS was out with friends. WH seemed disappointed.

There was no mention of our conversation last night. I was pleasant and friendly. He said the chocolate cake I was baking smelled good. I thanked him for the chores he did. When he left, he hugged DD and told her he loved her. She stiffened up and said, "Good-bye." He laughed. The whole visit lasted about an hour and a half.

Edited to add:
Kicking self moment: WH asked me how the kids were and I said "fine." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Conditioned response. I wish I had thought of something better to say.

Awkward WH/DD moment: DD stayed in her room for most of WH's visit. He went to talk to her in her room. I overhead him say, "Okay. Well, maybe you'll feel like talking to me later."

I haven't called my BIL and SIL yet. I haven't had a moment to myself. I'll have to sit in my closet after the kids go to bed (that's the only place they can't overhear me on the phone). Or maybe I'll go out in the car in the garage later (that's my other private phone call place). Ah, the glamorous life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I squashed down the remaining shreds of my dignity and called my sister-in-law tonight - she's the one with the money. She was absolutely flabbergasted that WH was refusing to support us financially. Apparently WH has been telling his family, the few times that he has spoken to them, that he would always take care of us, although he had complained to his brother that it was costing him more than he could afford to support us (the very small amount that he was giving us before he cut us off).

Poor guy, living on three times the salary I'm making - while I'm supporting three people and he is supporting only his new lifestyle and affair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Apparently WH was complaining about supporting us even before the custody/visitation problems came up, so maybe he used my refusal to let him take the kids for the weekend as a convenient excuse to cut us off, although I'm sure he was angry about not taking the kids, too.

I told my SIL that we weren't desperate yet, but might be soon. My SIL said that she would definitely help us out, if it became necessary. She was very upset when I told her the credit card story and that I was going to apply for low-income health insurance. She said she would talk to her husband (WH's brother) and see if they could talk some sense into WH. She said more than once, "This just doesn't seem like him!" Oh yeah, I know that feeling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Of course, WH will probably find a way to make it all my fault (even though he has said nothing bad about me to his family, yet). I hope BIL and SIL can see through the fogese.

I told her that I still thought, since WH wasn't being himself, that maybe this whole situation was an aberration of character, that maybe a divorce could be avoided. She said, "Oh no, you're getting a divorce. You can count on that." She and BIL have spoken to WH on a couple of occasions about his intentions, and she was adamant that WH is positive he wants a divorce - and that he seems so happy with his new love. I know, it's hearsay, but depressing nonetheless, to hear that WH has been so sure from the beginning - and seems more sure now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Again I am reminded of WH's poor-me whine when he said, "It's not fair that I'm the one who has to give up everything!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Poor baby! Here I am living the high life while he is suffering so. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

So, what is your impression of all the latest developments? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> And, please, somebody remind me why I even want him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I'm starting to wonder.

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
==================================
She said, "Oh no, you're getting a divorce. You can count on that.
==================================

Just because he convinced sister in law that he is getting a divorce doesn't make it true.

I know that phone call must have been hard for you. I think that you did good.

It is interesting that he is complaining about the costs, it is really going to hurt if the divorce goes through. He will have his legal responsibility to you and the kids, and other woman will be demanding more as well.

Pebbles, the chances are that the other woman won't divorce, and even if she does, by the time all this has settled out, it is doubtful that they will still want each other. Most affairs end long before that point.

If nothing else, statistics are on your side right now, as are the kind folks here of course :-)

The latest developments are just the process in action. Don't waste your time obsessing over anything that has transpired. Do your best to take it in stride. Your turn will come.

Quote:
===================================
... please, somebody remind me why I even want him. ...
===================================

I have no idea :-) You said you did, so we are trying to help you win him back, and recover your marriage.

In all seriousness, it is your decision. By all rights, you can kick him to the curb. You have earned the right to dump him. He is in an affair. That disqualifies him as a husband, and in many aspects, as a father.

If you decide to keep him, then with the right plan, it is possible to win him back, and even have a good marriage, but there are no guarantees.

I think that you will find that the children will sway you in the direction of recovery. It is probably much harder to start over, with children in the picture, than working toward a resolution of the problem.

Regardless, it is still your decision.

All the best,
Gimble

I've had a hot bath, some hot tea, and I've done my Ujjayi breathing. I'm feeling much more calm now. You'd be surprised how calm I am when I talk to WH, considering how I vent here.

I just noticed this is the three-month anniversary of D-day and WH leaving. Blaaah. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

LOL, Gimble, was that me who said I wanted him back?? I guess it was. Humiliation has a way of making me forget, which is probably WH's intention.

I just remembered, SIL said that she and BIL had not spoken to WH since right after Easter. So, they may not know as much as I assumed they did. It seems WH has not been in as much contact with his family as I thought he was.

Thank you. Yes, it was hard for me. I don't like to beg or be needy. Maybe this is God's way of teaching me that I was too proud.

SIL said this too. The amount of money he was giving us before he cut us off was only about 1/2 of what he'll have to pay in child and spousal support. Plus, he'll have to pay for health insurance for all three of us.

I forgot until just now: During our conversation last night about financial support, WH said, "I guess we'll just have to get together and figure out a support plan" (after, of course, I give in to his visitation demands). Little does he know that he won't have any say in how much he has to pay. It sounds like he's thinking we'll compromise on an amount.

It just scares me that I know of several relationships in my non-internet/real life where affair couples have married. One of the affair couples that married was one of WH's brothers and his second wife. I do appreciate the kind folks here. This is the only place I can go where people actually "get it" and understand what is going on and how I am feeling.

My turn will come, mmmwaahaahaahaa (that's an evil laugh). I like the sound of that. I'll try to use my power for good, not evil.

I am hoping that tomorrow will be a drama-free day. I'd like to take a day off of worrying about WH and the attendant problems. I'm just going to focus on work, my kids, my dogs, and finding a good book to read.

Gimble, for all the help and encouragement you offer me and the other struggling BSs here, I hope your life is richly blessed. I thank you for taking the time to reply so often to my long, troubled posts.

Catching up now, Pebs.

As you stated, my earlier advice was to get the legal stuff finalized prior to Plan B.

That's when I thought the legal stuff was imminent and you probably shouldn't provide any motivation to him to NOT settle the legal stuff.

Since then, he's resisted signing and has further jeopardized your financial status. How much worse can it get, i.e., if you went to Plan B now, what could he do to lessen his cooperation?

Maybe Plan B should be imminent.

Even if you're not ready for it, I suggest you start writing your letter. Write it knowing you're going to send a copy to his family and to the OW. Write it so anybody reading it will conclude you've tried your best so far and you can do no more. Plan on having your attorney read it prior to sending to make sure you're not jeopardizing anything and are maximizing any consideration a divorce judge may give it in the future.

Make sense?

Comments from others?

WAT

Hi, WAT.

I think that Plan B should be postponed until a settlement has been reached - unless that process is going to drag out for months.

My read on her husband and their situation, is that he would become even more resistant to taking care of his obligations to his family. It seems to me that he will do so almost to the point of destructive behavior. He seems to have major anger issues, just under the surface. I recommend caution. You asked :-)

Gimble

Compass mount (Gimble) - very valid thoughts.

I don't pretend to know exactly when Plan B should be entered - just that Pebs has already laid the good Plan A groundwork for it. Hate to see the opportunity squandered.

I too would expect him to become more resistant. Pebs would have to proceed with the filing and have legal action taken. My thought was that this already appears to be the sitch and Pebs reasonably cannot keep up the good Plan A effort much longer.

WAT

Hi, WAT.

Quote:
===============================
My thought was that this already appears to be the sitch and Pebs reasonably cannot keep up the good Plan A effort much longer.
===============================

I agree, but I am hoping that he will sign off on this latest round of negotiations, and if not, that her brother in law will step up with some support. Plan A is tough, but Plan B with no immediately realistic means of support would be tougher.

There is my nickel's worth :-)

Compass mount, aye ....
:-)
Gimble

Monohull stove mount - yep.

But it wouldn't hurt for her to get started on that Plan B letter, huh? Just writing Plan B letters seems to be constructive for BSs.

WAT

I completely agree with writing the letter, and initial contingency planning , WAT.

Gimble

You're doing great and you've got WAT and Gimble helping! How lucky are you?

Exposure. Yeah that's tough for him. What goes around comes around <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

SIL AND BIL help. Let them help. It's for your kids not you. Swallow your pride. You help the next person who needs it. That's how this works. What goes around comes around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Oh No, you're getting a divorce"

My MIL dropped the same line on me. Tell her politely that you want to see if your WH comes to his senses. Thank you for your concern, but keep praying for our family who needs a normal father. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles,

I read your thread yesterday (once I got through the first few posts I was hooked) and thought about you last night. I want to share a little something...

My dad left when I was 12. At the time, my mother told me that she had kicked him out but never had a bad word to say about him. That's right - even when he would call late Thursday to tell her that he wasn't coming to get us for the weekend, even when he made her the bad guy by telling us that he couldn't afford Christmas presents because our mother was taking all his money, even when he would suggest she was a prostitute... He was so mean and hurtful, yet she was always as nice as possible.

I have since found out that he'd been with another woman for two years before she kicked him out, and they married a few years later (the OW passed away in December, that's when I found out how long they'd been together).

I have to tell you that I couldn't understand why my mom was so nice to him back then. She wouldn't go out of her way like you have, but she never got unpleasant with him around us.

I realize now that she had simply forgiven him and that there were other things that she needed to focus on. I really respect her for that. I took me a lot longer to get over my anger for him leaving.

I know that their break up left emotional scars on me. I have a fear of abandonment and a fear that my future-husband might cheat on me. I'm working on these.

What I want you to know by telling you this is that your kids will be okay. Sure they'll have some issues, same as I do, but they will grow up and know that you did the right thing. You will be setting an example for your kids in that cheating is not tolerated. They will have a lot of respect for you for the things that you're doing now to make sure that they're taken care of.

I think that you're a very strong woman, and if the aliens have taken permanent residence in your husbands head, at least you know you did all you can. I'm sure that your kids will notice that.

{{Pebbles}}

Cat

Cat, thank you so much for saying this. That is what I want my children to understand, I protected them and I did all I could, and what I did I did with integrity. I want to be able to look at my children and not be ashamed. If the alien ever comes to his senses, I doubt he will be able to look at our children and not be ashamed of his actions.

I think you are doing great. Stay strong.

I just found out today that my WH continues to have contact with OW. My plan B is right around the corner. I'm waiting for OWH to contact a lawyer so he can get his ducks in a row. Mine are lined up and ready to march. THIS S_CKS!!!!

WHY DON"T THEY GET IT!!!?????

Sleepless, I told my SIL what you told your MIL when she was sure you'd be getting a divorce, "I'm hoping he'll come to his senses." And I really hope he does.

Gimble, I don't know where all this anger is coming from! I have come to the conclusion that he is a major conflict avoider. Did he stuff so much anger down inside over the years that it's all coming out now? I really don't have a clue why he is so angry. It makes me worry that he has more cruelity planned for me that I'm not prepared for. Why is he so angry???????

Gimble and WAT, I have the same conflict with starting Plan B, and you both have good points. As you both recommended, I will get started on the Plan B letter.

What happened today - more confusion and mixed messages - and my lawyer yelled at WH!!

I have a feeling this is going to be another loooong post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I got a fax today with WH's latest revisions to the visitation/custody agreement. He wanted some words changed around in one paragraph (that didn't change the meaning at all). He also wanted a paragraph added that stated he "intends to pursue a divorce as soon as possible and intends to divide all assets, including the house, as soon as possible." My lawyer recommended I approve those changes. She said that stating he "intends" to do something, even if I sign it, does not mean anything legally, as in "I intend to make a million dollars and retire to Maui."

She told me she called him and practically yelled at him! She said she feels like he's "jacking us around" and delaying the proceedings, when he says he is the one who wants everything done quickly. She also was angry with him for repeatedly revising one or two minor things and having her office retype the whole agreement. She said she told him he has 10 days to sign the current agreement - or we go to court. She said he "sounded" like he would sign. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add: My lawyer said, "What is the matter with this guy? The elevator is not going all the way to the top floor!"

Oh, this is really rich: The lawyer said he also wanted to include a stipulation that he wouldn't be required to pay child/spousal support until the division of assets had been finalized. She told him that there was no way she would include that in the agreement. What's most strange to me is he hasn't asked to change anything else about actual visitation or custody. Huh?????

The lawyer asked me if he had been paying the mortgage, because he told her had been. I told her that the bank records would show that I had deposited the mortgage money for the past two months. Now I know why he gave me a check last month right after I paid the mortgage, he wanted to get credit for paying it. But, I put the check he gave me in my own account, not the account the mortgage is taken out of.

Okay, that's not all. It was an eventful day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> When I got home, WH had left a message for me to call him, right away, at his parents' house. He is watching the house for his parents while they are away at a funeral. I called him and said, "Hi, it's me." He said, in a very cheerful, old-H (not alien) voice, "Hi, Me! Wow, you called back quickly. How are you?" We chatted for a while, no mention of the agreement. His voice had the old sweetness in it, like when he used to not hate me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I asked him why he had called. He said he wanted to arrange a time on Sunday to come over and work in the yard again. Now, why did he need me to call him today, right away, for that?? He could have called any day this week, and usually calls only one or two days before he wants to come over. He didn't mention visiting the kids, except to ask how DD is doing. I said, "As well as can be expected." At least I didn't say "fine" this time.

What the heck is he up to now?????? What is with all the anger, the delaying, and the weird phone call with the sweetness in his voice? What is going on??????? Do you think he has some horrible plan he is getting ready to unleash on me????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I know I sound like a basket case here, but I was very calm and collected on the phone with WH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Confused, that does suck! About the only thing my WH has been honest about is that he is still in contact (close, intimate contact) with MOW. Geez, just when it seems like life couldn't suck any more, it gets a little buck suckier. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> I'm so upset that I'm not even making the word "sucks" look less offensive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Another weird thing (at least to me): I always contact WH on his cell phone. He hasn't given out his land-line number to anyone I know of, including his family (but I know it because I snooped <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). Why would he want to make sure that I know he is at his parents' house? He said I should call him there, when his cell phone would have worked just as well. In fact, he mentioned more than once that he was there. Maybe it doesn't mean anything (I'm an over-analyzer), but maybe it does - but what would it mean???
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm in a cynical mood tonight.

WH calls you and leaves message to call immediately.

Just small talk during convo.

Tells you more than once to NOT call his cell.

What is OW thinking about WH away at his parents? Did she think that he was going to your place for the weekend? Did she keep his cellphone as proof of NC? Does she have his cell password for him to prove something to her?

I would call his phone. Hey, you're under a lot of stress, and could be forgetful because of it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> . I would be prepared for her to answer (I'm sorry, I must have dialled the wrong number, repeat as many times as necessary). I would also be prepared to leave a message that left room for a lot of assumptions if OW received it, but would get past your WH if he received it.

I'd ask Gimble and WAT for ideas.

Take care

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
====================================
Gimble, I don't know where all this anger is coming from! I have come to the conclusion that he is a major conflict avoider. Did he stuff so much anger down inside over the years that it's all coming out now? I really don't have a clue why he is so angry. It makes me worry that he has more cruelity planned for me that I'm not prepared for. Why is he so angry???????
====================================

Here is what I suspect. You tell me if I am off. My guess is that he feels over utilized and under appreciated, for a long, long time. I would definitely consider that 'stuffing'. That is a hard thing for a man. In general, a man would have a hard time saying "I need you to notice my hard work and knowledge better than you do", but he would want you to, never the less.

Add to the above; projected anger because he feels guilty, anger from feeling like he is trapped and can't pursue his new 'interest' in the way he wants to, and basic anger at himself for being in this mess to begin with.

Don't get excited about this next statement. I am wondering just how fixated he really is on the other woman. I suspect it may not be as strong as initially suspected. I am suspecting that she is more of a convenience right now. Tell me what you think about that, Pebbles. Not wishful thinking, but how connected to her do you think he really is?

I am glad that your lawyer is getting testy with him. His waffling on details is beginning to sound like he has been reading a bad website on "how to be obnoxious with your wife's lawyer". Again, more anger coming out.

Quote:
====================================
The lawyer said he also wanted to include a stipulation that he wouldn't be required to pay child/spousal support until the division of assets had been finalized. She told him that there was no way she would include that in the agreement. What's most strange to me is he hasn't asked to change anything else about actual visitation or custody. Huh?????
====================================

Again, his focus is still not on the children, rather on trying to blackmail you to move forward on the divorce. He is being coached big time, but I can't figure if it is the other woman or his lawyer.

Has your lawyer made any comments about the reputation of his lawyer? Do you know what other woman's background is?

Quote:
=====================================
Now, why did he need me to call him today, right away, for that??
=====================================

Possibly to find out how you are handling his frontal assaults.

On the calls, unless you suspect an emergency, don't be so quick to call him back. Be busy, whether or not you are busy :-) try not to be so available.

Good for you on the comments about the kids.

Quote:
====================================
Do you think he has some horrible plan he is getting ready to unleash on me?????
====================================

He isn't all powerful, and he is subject to the same laws of physics and laws of order that you and I are, so I wouldn't live in fear of him or what he can do.

As rough as all this is on you, the sun will still rise tomorrow, and life will continue. No matter what he does, you are prepared to handle it. You have learned a lot in a short period of time, and believe it or not, your skill set for handling the things he has been barraging you with, has greatly improved.

I think you are an awesome lady, Pebbles.

God bless,
Gimble

LovingBoundaries, wow, I have no idea! I may accidentally slip and call his cell to ask a house maintenance-type question. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It seemed more like he really wanted me to know that he was at his parents' house for a few days, instead of at his place. Why that would be important for me to know, I have no idea, since I can reach him wherever he is by cell phone - and he usually calls me, not the other way around.

His parents' house has lots of pictures of us as a family on the walls. The living room is covered with them. If he's staying there, he is having to look at the smiling faces of him, me, and the kids cuddling together, and the kids' school pictures over the years.

Gimble, I think your assessment of the source of WH's anger is probably dead on. Thinking back over the two or three months before he left, when I thought he was stressed at work and suffering from a midlife crisis, I tried to do extra things to cheer him up and make him feel wanted, appreciated, and special. Each time I did something for him, he would say, "You did all this for me?" He sounded touched. Maybe I was unknowingly in sort of a Plan A in the months right before he left - but he still left.

As you know, I am still working on trying to make him feel appreciated and valued. I hope it's not too little, too late. It seems like every time I am nice to him or make him feel appreciated, he does something mean to me and/or the kids in the next day or two.

I just recently found out that WH had let it slip to my SIL (the one with the money) that "something was going on." This happened at a family birthday party a week before WH left, that he went to without me because I stayed home with our sick children. He had been drinking, which he doesn't do very often, and started crying and talking. He came home smelling of alcohol, and very amorous, late that night.

My SIL is known as the family gossip, so it's almost as if he wanted me to find out. SIL, according to her, told WH that if he didn't tell me about the A, she would. Exactly a week later, he told me and left. Would he have left if he didn't think I would find out? I don't know.

Edited to make a correction: He didn't actually tell me about the affair. He just said he wanted to leave. I had to ask specific questions to find out about the affair.

Good question, Gimble. I really have no idea how connected they are. He has introduced her to his parents. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> He has told our children he loves her more than he loves me and that he will probably marry her. He hasn't really told me too much about her. Most of what I know is from what he told the MC at the one and only visit, the lawyer during our first meeting, and what I have learned from my in-laws. Is it almost more worrisome if she is just a convenience? Then he would have left more because he wanted to get away from me, not just to be with her. Could be...

WH has not given my lawyer the name of his lawyer. My lawyer thinks maybe he is going to a paralegal or some type of divorce clinic place. MOW has no legal background, that I am aware of, and has a high school education. She is not yet divorced from her husband. WH does have quite a few friends he works with who have been divorced, maybe they are advising him.

Usually I do take my time calling him back. I don't like to appear to be sitting by the phone waiting for his calls. Usually he calls late in the evening, so it was a surprise to have a message from him so early in the day. That, plus him asking me to call his parents' number, instead of his cell phone, made me think he was going to tell me about the death in the family (it was a distant relative), or some other important event. I was surprised that it was just small talk and arranging to come work in the yard.

Or, maybe he was upset that he couldn't reach me last Sunday, the day he showed up unannounced after supposedly calling several times. He was very cheerful and upbeat. In other words, I have no clue what is going on (what else is new?).

Thanks, Gimble, what a nice thing to say. I am trying. I would have no idea about how to handle all of this without the help I'm getting here. And you're right, no matter what happens, the sun will come up tomorrow and life will go on. I just hope we don't get booted out of our house because WH wants to punish me. Still, I suppose life would go on even then.

I guess I'm kind of like the Terminator, the more I get pushed down the more determined I am to get up and keep going. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> "I'll be baaack."

I really think that you should enter Plan B as soon as he's signed the legal stuff. The same day. The same hour.

Cut him loose.

Plan B will be telling him that he made the decision to have an affair, leave the family, and "fight" for his rights. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Now you're telling him that you're taking control and it's YOUR decision to STAY SEPARATED and he's all on his own. Don't bother me until you get your head outta your butt.

I'm serious, Pebs. Plan B may be scary to you, but it's a package deal with Plan A. It's not another plan, it's the second half of the same plan. Once the legal stuff is settled, ANY delay in Plan B will diminish it's value.

Get hot on that letter. You gotta budget time to let your laywer see it and for us to see it first. See the sample in SAA.

WAT

It doesn't sound to me like he is getting advice from ANYWHERE other than his own selfish wants and bank account ("Look how much money I'm paying to Pebs, I want money to buy MYSELF things...") Who would give him advice to financially abandon his wife and kids, he is going to get it, but good.

It appears as though he thinks of this as a game. The D mentality and strategy. How do you remove yourself, rise above it, not be a part of the game, yet still protect yourself? Take what he says or does at face value...don't try to read too much into ANYTHING he does...he probably hasn't figured it out himself...don't ask what it Meeaaaans anymore (I hate that phrase, no way to tell).

Some things to do...

Next time he asks about DD talk honestly with him...tell him you are worried about her, she seems to be taking this hard. Talk honestly about the changes in her. If he tries to expain them away, just say, "I thought you would want to know."

Have you talked with him about the insurance and the credit card and how you and hte kids need money? Time to get honest. I'll bet you are a CA too. Someone has to bring up tough subjects.

I would talk with your lawyer about charging back some of your lawyer fees to him, for all the changes he's making...

I agree Plan B is a good idea, but I would wait a while after the legal work has gone through so it doesn't seem like Plan B is a retaliation or vengeful...give it a few weeks, or do it now but not hand in hand with signatures...it would be too convenient for the WH to expain Plan B away as a scorned spouses response to not getting what she wants...ugh.

Hi, Pebbles.

One of the reasons that I think your wayward husband is being coached, is the same type of reason you are here seeking advice. A wayward spouse is way out on the truth limb, and seeks to justify their position from as many sources as they can. It is only natural that they surround themselves with like minded people - people will all kinds of advice to offer, most of it bad.

Affair partners coaching each other is a basic tenant of the relationship. Add all that to a wayward spouse's propensity toward feeding their experience, and you have a convoluted mess, routinely erupting, regardless of who is in charge.

On the anger issue, I am not trying to find fault with you. In most marriages where an affair has been undertaken by one or both spouses, there is usually one or more major contributing issues to the marriage being in a bad way pre-affair. People can have affairs for a lot of reasons, but in general, the previous statement applies to most marriages suffering from an affair.

My effort to isolate your marital issues is so that I could understand your husbands mindset, and possibly be more effective in helping you with a strategy.

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As you know, I am still working on trying to make him feel appreciated and valued. I hope it's not too little, too late. It seems like every time I am nice to him or make him feel appreciated, he does something mean to me and/or the kids in the next day or two.
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Making a basic change on a personal issue is a good thing and is never too late. You will take that with you, reconciled or not.

Do you have an example of doing something nice and he reacts meanly to the kids?

Have you two ever had a fight that went physical?

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Is it almost more worrisome if she is just a convenience?
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No, it just changes the equation a bit. Don't worry about it.

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I just hope we don't get booted out of our house because WH wants to punish me. Still, I suppose life would go on even then
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Don't let fear rob you. I don't see a court booting a woman and children to the street because a wayward husband got nasty and complained that he wasn't getting his way.

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I guess I'm kind of like the Terminator, the more I get pushed down the more determined I am to get up and keep going. "I'll be baaack."
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That is an outstanding attitude to have :-)

So, do you think you can handle working on a Plan B letter?

All the best,
Gimble

Yes, WAT, Plan B is terrifying to me, but I do see its value. I'm just afraid that WH will think, "Thank God! Now I never have to see or talk to her again." He and MOW will probably have a good laugh about it.

I am starting on a Plan B letter. I'll post it here for advice on how to make it better. I agree that I should let my lawyer look it over before I give it to WH.

I am still waffling on the timing of starting Plan B. The lawyer gave him 10 days to sign the latest version of the agreement. We'll see if he actually signs it. WH has always said that he doesn't want to go to court and he can't afford a lawyer. I'm not sure how far he'll go to get his way.

StillHere, I think that's a good idea. About a month ago I mentioned to him that the kids were upset that he wanted to take them to his apartment. He said I shouldn't tell him if the kids are upset, that it made him feel like he shouldn't or couldn't see them. I think he does need to hear that they are not "fine" with what he is doing. It is a dose of reality. I have told him that the kids are not "fine," but not in the last few weeks.

I am somewhat of a conflict avoider, too. When I would bring up difficult subjects with WH (before he left), he would sometimes accuse me of looking for an argument - which he hates. We hardly ever argued, maybe not a good thing after all. When WH and I met with the lawyer, she said that we were the most calm and civilized couple she had ever dealt with. The MC said the same thing, almost word for word. They were surprised that we weren't screaming at each other.

I did talk to WH about us needing money and the credit card situation. He said that until I agreed to his terms (custody/visitation) he would not provide any financial support.

He will end up paying half of my legal fees, according to my lawyer, because his salary is so much higher than mine. He will also have to pay 100% of any fees he has to pay his own lawyer.

I can see your point, too, StillHere. WH has already told me, and my lawyer, that he thinks everything I've done legally so far is to punish him. I think he already thinks I'm being vengeful.

Although, if I were vengeful, when I cleared his clothes out of the closet a couple weeks after he first left I could have put them in a Dumpster. Instead, I folded them nicely, sorted by season, in large plastic bags and put them in the garage for him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Aaagh!! I just typed one of my looong responses, but it disappeared. Consider yourselves lucky. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Gimble, I thought your impression of the sources of WH's anger was very insightful and helpful. I know and admit that I contributed to the pre-affair state of the marriage. I did take WH for granted and I did focus too much on the kids and my new job. I was so tired from going back to work, after working from home for several years, that I let things slide at home. He also thought I spent too much money and talked too much sometimes.

Not directly. To me, him withdrawing financial support is being mean to them, while intended to punish me.

No, never. He had never even raised his voice to me before the incident where I wouldn't let him take the kids for the weekend. We hardly ever argued, and never argued loudly or physically. I know, we are conflict avoiders, but we were always very compatible (or so I thought).

The lawyer said he could force a sale of the house as part of the division of the assets. He promised us, and his family, that he would let us live here as long as we wanted. But...he also promised that he would support us financially, so... I would like to see him explain to his family why the kids and I have to move out. Somehow it would all be my fault, of course.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Well, I'm going to find out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm going to get started, hopefully tonight.

Yes, this was the short version of my reply that disappeared. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

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The lawyer said he could force a sale of the house as part of the division of the assets. He promised us, and his family, that he would let us live here as long as we wanted. But...he also promised that he would support us financially, so... I would like to see him explain to his family why the kids and I have to move out. Somehow it would all be my fault, of course.
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Ignore the promises and define 'force a sale'. I see a lot of opportunity for the 'anchor effect' :-)

All kidding aside, the nastier he gets, the more he alienates his children. The day you decided to stop keeping his activities a secret, is the day that he started having to take responsibility for his actions. That will continue to be true, regardless of what happens to the house. I wish more betrayed spouses would understand that helping a wayward spouse hide an affair is the same as helping the affair.

Now, stop worrying about it. That is a ways off, and a lot can go right in the mean time :-)

God bless,
Gimble

The 'anchor effect' - is that related to the 'old ball-and-chain' effect? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> My lawyer told me that when we divide the assets WH could insist that either I buy him out (ha, ha, funny, as if I could) or we sell the house and split the proceeds. I'm putting my worries about that on the back burner, for now.

And he still doesn't seem to 'get it.' He still thinks the kids will adjust immediately, because he has a lot of friends at work who are divorced and their kids are fine (he says). I hope some of his attitude is just for show. One would have to think he'd notice when the kids pull away from him or when his daughter doesn't want to speak to him when he visits.


I hope something starts going right. I'm still the Terminator, though. I didn't realize how much I could withstand. I am a lot stronger than I thought - and the backup here helps tremendously.

He called and left a message this evening. We were at the grocery store, but he doesn't have to know that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The message was just for the children, I was not mentioned. He said he wondered how they were - and that it would be hard to reach him at his parents' house (he's still house-sitting). He said he might try calling again tomorrow evening. We won't be home then (plans). Neither child wanted to call him back. I didn't call him back, either.

I haven't been able to start on my Plan B letter yet. I will try to get it done this weekend.

I think part of my fear about Plan B is my fear of humiliation. I am afraid WH will read my Plan B letter and laugh, thinking, "I told her I didn't love her and was never coming back, but she is still in love with me. What a loser!" Maybe he'll let MOW read it over wine at dinner and they'll make fun of me and how pitiful I am, then they'll toss the letter in the trash.

Of course, I'm also afraid that Plan B will give him what he's been wanting most - me gone for good. He told me once that he wished he could just call and the kids would answer the phone, so he wouldn't have to talk to me. But...he has called to talk to me, without asking for the kids, lately, but just about coming over to fix things.

So, do you think my Plan A has been long enough? I'm afraid any positive effects my Plan A has accomplished have been negated by the hostility of the legal matters (even though I have not been hostile to him, just firm in my boundaries). Maybe he thinks I've only been nice to him to try to manipulate him. I know that he knows I do not want a divorce. But again, a longer Plan A might not have a chance against the increasing ugliness of the legal proceedings. Any opinions?

I know that part of the purpose of Plan B is that I won't care about him by the end, but it seems so terrifying now.

Hi, Pebbles.

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The 'anchor effect' - is that related to the 'old ball-and-chain' effect? My lawyer told me that when we divide the assets WH could insist that either I buy him out (ha, ha, funny, as if I could) or we sell the house and split the proceeds. I'm putting my worries about that on the back burner, for now.
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No balls or chains, but some serious foot dragging :-)

You might want to talk to a banker. By the time you add your salary and his maintenance and child support, you might just be able to afford it.

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One would have to think he'd notice when the kids pull away from him or when his daughter doesn't want to speak to him when he visits.
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He notices. He does think that once he gets them away from you, that it will all be better, but Plan B is going to help fix that little fantasy.

I am glad that you are still the terminator. I am not surprised that the kids didn't call him back.

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I think part of my fear about Plan B is my fear of humiliation. I am afraid WH will read my Plan B letter and laugh, thinking, "I told her I didn't love her and was never coming back, but she is still in love with me. What a loser!" Maybe he'll let MOW read it over wine at dinner and they'll make fun of me and how pitiful I am, then they'll toss the letter in the trash.
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Don't worry about mocking or spite. Who cares what John's wife thinks about anything - well, unless it is her going back home to John :-)

It doesn't matter what they think about the letter. It is going to stick to your hubby. It is going to stick in his mind. He is going to wake, sleep, eat and use the toilet thinking about it.

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Of course, I'm also afraid that Plan B will give him what he's been wanting most - me gone for good. He told me once that he wished he could just call and the kids would answer the phone, so he wouldn't have to talk to me. But...he has called to talk to me, without asking for the kids, lately, but just about coming over to fix things.
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He only thinks that's what he wants, but he is going to get a dose of it, and he is going to find out very quickly what other woman is really made of. I bet he won't like it.

Here is what life might be like for him. Assuming, you go Plan B shortly after the legal issues are handled. He is going to call to talk to the kids. You will hand them the phone or they can answer - if they want to or not. My guess is that they will often not want to.

For 90 days, he can't introduce them to John's wife. If you catch him, you bust him. That means that when he gets the kids for a visit, he is going to get a lot of 'upset' - by the buckets full to go along with the visit. The tension is going to be difficult, and the only person he can talk to about it, doesn't know his children at all. It is almost a certainty that she will give him bad advice. The reality, at least some of it, is going to begin to coalesce in his brain.

So, for 90 days, John's wife, who won't be staying with him all the time, is going to be responsible to meet all his needs. He is stuck living in a dump, with nothing to fix, nothing to be appreciated for, and no one that understands his kids to talk to. If she doesn't understand his kids, and her ideas don't work, then what is he to think about all those ideas about you that she had?

Yep, I think Plan B will get his attention.

Please tell me how you feel about all that. What do you think - fear aside, will be the issues?

As for Plan A. I think that you have done a good one, even if it is short. Your circumstances are dictating that you take an early approach to Plan B. That is okay. The legal stuff is what it is, and you have little choice in the matter, unless you come into some money. If you do, then you can change the game a bit.

Honestly, I think that Plan B with your circumstances the way they are, gives your marriage a good chance. I wish there were guarantees. If you can scrape up a couple hundred dollars, a call to Steve Harley for his input would be helpful for you.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble, I like your version of the effects of my Plan B. I do think some of it would turn out the way you stated. My daughter could easily make his life a living hell. She is very strong-willed, and angry right now. My son is angry too, but he is much more of a peacemaker. He won't want to anger his father.

I used to be such an optimist. WH, when he was my real husband, used to say I had 'an aura of goodness and happiness' around me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I'm a bit more pessimistic now.

Worst case scenario:
WH has a fairly nice apartment with lots of kid-approved, cool electronic toys (this is true, according to my daughter, the one time she saw his apartment) and new furniture. She said he also has a nice, large bathroom that 'smells good.' He provides many gifts and lets them play video games, watch DVDs, lets our son play on John's wife's laptop computer, and lets them do whatever they want without disciplining them. He takes them fun places that I cannot afford to take them. WH still has John's wife to fix things for, on his days off from our children, and she comes over to clean his place and cook him nice meals. I can think of more, but I'll spare you more whiny ramblings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The issues (in best or worst case scenario):
I seriously doubt John's wife will be able to understand how to handle the children. She hasn't lived with her own child on a regular basis for quite some time, apparently. Her advice will be useless when it comes to taking care of them. Both children are angry with WH, and I have always spent more time with them than he has. I am sure I understand them better than WH, or MOW, especially now. Neither child's friends' parents will let their children visit WH's place, knowing what he has done, so he will only know about their social lives through what they tell him.

Our daughter has been having trouble sleeping lately and has been wanting to be with me at night. I can't imagine she would sleep any better at his place. She will probably be very grumpy. The children probably won't want to talk to him on the phone. Our daughter won't talk to him when he calls now.

I wish there were guarantees, too. But, as I've been told, I can't really lose him any more - he's already gone - so what do I have to lose by trying Plan B? We did have a good, happy relationship for a long time, and we have a lot of history together. Maybe Plan B will make him remember some of the good things. Right now he seems to remember only the bad (his version of history).

If only that money tree in the back yard would start producing... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Lovely mental picture, LOL. I hope it does stick in his mind. I hope he's not too far gone.

I do think, and hope, that this will happen. I think she has been coaching him about how to handle me. Her suggestions haven't been effective. When her ideas about how to handle the children don't work either, maybe he'll see her in a different light.

Thanks again, Gimble.

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Worst case scenario:
WH has a fairly nice apartment with lots of kid-approved, cool electronic toys (this is true, according to my daughter, the one time she saw his apartment) and new furniture. She said he also has a nice, large bathroom that 'smells good.' He provides many gifts and lets them play video games, watch DVDs, lets our son play on John's wife's laptop computer, and lets them do whatever they want without disciplining them.
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Hi Pebbles,

Not sure if you remember - I posted about how my dad left when I was 12... He moved in almost immediately with his OW. When we would visit them, they were exactly as you described. My brother would play Nintendo all day, I would talk on the phone, my sister would do whatever. We could fight, call each other names, stay up late. Never any discipline. I asked my dad's OW one day why she never sent us to bed early when we did something wrong (bed early was my mom's favorite punishment). She said that she didn't think it was necessary - we were on vacation, and we should enjoy our time off.

(Side note - my dad moved 1,000 miles away, we only saw him every other year at Christmas and one month each summer.)

My sister, who was only six when my dad left, decided to go and live with him and his OW. She didn't know that there were no rules only because we only visited on vacation. It was so awful. She was miserable and ended up moving back in with my mom (took about three years).

So remember, even if your H and the OW do everything they can to make sure the kids like to visit, there will always be reality. It might not come for the first few visits, but your kids sound like they would realize that their father was trying to "bribe" them by being so nice. I certainly noticed.

Cat

Maybe a subtle point, but I believe the "not caring" part is better characterized as a result of a well done Plan A/B.

The textbook reason for Plan B is to preserve the dwindling love bank of the BS and to force the WS to have all ENs met by the OP.

I believe the unstated practical affect of Plan B includes forcing a fuller set of consequences on to the WS for his/her decisions (and for the balance of control to shift to the BS). Do not fear showing him all the consequences. In the end, consequences of decisions is what changes decisions.

WAT

Hi, Cat. I do remember you, and thank you for posting! It is good to hear from someone who has 'been there' to give the betrayed kid's point of view. I think my children are old enough and smart enough that they will recognize a bribe when they see it, like you were. I know from being a teacher and a parent that children need and expect boundaries, they want adults to be in charge. Even though children may test limits, they feel confused and unprotected without them.

That said, if the worst happens, it will be hard to be the disciplinarian while WH (and eventually MOW) get to be the good-time, video-game buying, vacation people.

Very sad: My son and his friends were comparing how many numbers they have stored in their cell phone address books. My son told his friends, "If I need somebody I have seven numbers I can call: two for my mom, two for my grandma, two for my grandpa, and one for my aunt." He didn't even mention his father. He already thinks of his father as someone he can't count on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for reminding me, WAT. I appreciate your input and advice.

My love bank is deep in the red right now (kind of like my bank account, LOL). Although, I did keep one of his phone messages on the machine for a long time, just to hear his voice. What a dork I am. My son erased all the phone messages a few days go, so I don't listen to WH's message any more.

A man flirted with me in the grocery store the other day. A good-looking, seemingly nice man in a suit. It felt good. He asked where to find sports drinks, which were right down the aisle in front of him, then chatted with me for a little while. I know from my reading on this site that BSs can easily be tempted to start their own affairs. I can understand why. It was very nice to have someone seem to care what I thought and seem to want to be with me.

Good point. I'm just afraid that maybe she will be able to meet his ENs in a way he can tolerate. There must be some things he'll miss about me???


Some practical questions about Plan B. I'm not sure who I should choose as an intermediary. I could rely on and feel most comfortable with my mother. She has agreed to be my intermediary, even though she is possibly more angry with WH than I am. I don't know if WH would accept her as an intermediary, although they were close before he left. I really can't think of anyone else who would be readily available and willing to do the job.

Also, if WH signs the agreement, it states that the receiving parent must pick up and provide transportation for the children. I'll have to ask my lawyer if it would be okay for my mom to receive the children for me or if I have to do it myself.

WH will be calling the house to talk to the children. What should I do if I answer the phone? Just answer the phone, then hand it to the nearest child?

What about contact with my in-laws? Would contact with them be considered contact with WH?

I know I have to do this, but.......it's scary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

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Some practical questions about Plan B. I'm not sure who I should choose as an intermediary. I could rely on and feel most comfortable with my mother. She has agreed to be my intermediary, even though she is possibly more angry with WH than I am. I don't know if WH would accept her as an intermediary, although they were close before he left. I really can't think of anyone else who would be readily available and willing to do the job.
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Your mother should work fine. It doesn't matter if hubby accepts or not, she is who you chose. If he wants to deal with you, he talks to your mother. You will want to ask her to be sure, and make sure she understands what to expect and how to handle it.

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Also, if WH signs the agreement, it states that the receiving parent must pick up and provide transportation for the children. I'll have to ask my lawyer if it would be okay for my mom to receive the children for me or if I have to do it myself.
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You can pick them up, just pull up and blow the horn. No reason to talk to hubby.

He will try that boundary. You might consider keeping a couple of copies of your Plan B letter in the car, so that you can hand him one the first time he "has a quick question".

If you don't have calller ID, get it. The kids can see who it is and answer the phone if they want to.

Since you mention they already have a cell phone, you can call them directly, and work out a call back system on the regular phone to save charges on the kids cell phones.

You can work this stuff out, just be a bit creative.

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What about contact with my in-laws? Would contact with them be considered contact with WH?
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No, it wouldn't be contact, but it may be rough on you. They migtht not understand what you are doing and start trying to pass messages from wayward hubby to you. If that happens, ask them to please not do that, if they continue, then stop talking to them.

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I know I have to do this, but.......it's scary.
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I think it is probably more work than scary. The scary part wears off pretty quickly, then it is a bit of work, and eventually, you really start to enjoy the peace of not directly having to deal with the bullstuff continuously generated by the illicit pair.

Don't stay up all night worrying about it, you will do fine :-)

God bless,
Gimble

Watch there young lady. Let's discuss temptation. I'm getting looks in the airport from flight attendants that are pretty cute. I've got a woman I'm renting a room to who's about 8 years older than me, but is certainly interested, and one of her IM friends that's been flirting. I'm NOT that good looking, but something about me must be appealing. We must be putting off some signal. Do NOT entertain such thoughts until the gavel falls (on divorce). That's how WS get n trouble. Talk about your kids, and husband. They don't have to know your marriage is in trouble.

Having said that. It is nice to have an attractive person of the opposite sex say nice things to you. It's nice to have a woman post on your site instead of a man. Enjoy the nice and leave it there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Don't worry, Sleepless. I'll be a good girl. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> I've been faithful to the same man for 22 years and I'm not about to stop now, until a divorce is final. Of course, it would have been nice if he (WH) would have done the same. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I know what you mean about possibly giving out some sort of signal, though. I've had four men ask me out since this has happened, just during normal day-to-day activities, not at bars or types of places where one might expect to be asked out. I was wearing my wedding ring, but they may not have seen it (hidden under a jacket, long sleeves, etc.). I did tell them I was married. Maybe they were attracted by the lovely dark circles under my eyes from lack of sleep. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Wow! I just noticed today is the last day of April. That means I'll turn 40 in a little over two weeks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> When did that happen? I was 25 just yesterday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Gimble, I'm glad you brought this up. I do need to prepare my mom for what to expect and how to handle being my intermediary. I looked in SAA again last night and couldn't find anything about how to prepare an intermediary. My mom has volunteered for the job, but I don't want her to be at the receiving end of WH's anger and I don't want to add any undue stress to her life. What kinds of things should she be prepared for? And how should I tell her to handle them?

I will get caller ID. I will need to make sure that WH knows that the children will have the choice of answering the phone, I will not tell them whether they should or not.

Ah, peace. Sounds good. The illicit pair can wallow in their own bullstuff and quit dumping it on me.

I'm another one, like you and Sleepless, who survives on very little sleep. I've never slept more than about 5-6 hours per night. I'm doing better at compartmentalizing. The worrying compartment has been shut down for now. WH is coming over Sunday, to work in the yard, he says, so maybe I'll worry then (but I won't show it!).

Gimble, and anyone else with Plan B advice, what else should I consider when planning Plan B? I want to be prepared. I know having no contact with WH is of paramount importance. Thank you!

See a link over in the "Other Web Sites" section of Marriage Builders for a link for intermediary services.

Your mom has a huge task ahead of her. Most mothers aren't up to it, because they take sides, and deliver non-stop lovebusters to manipulative recipients of Plan B. If your mom is totally on board with your desire to recover your marriage, then, excellent, bring it on. But if she's not, then you might as well use your attorney and save your mom the stress and heartache. It's not an easy task.

*********
editted for compliance with TOS

KaylaAndy, thank you for your reply and the link.

That is what worries me. I know my mom would cheerfully walk through the firey depths of hell for me, but I don't want her to have to. If I asked her to be civil to WH, she would, but she is most definitely on my side. My mom, who I have never heard curse in my entire life, has a special name for WH now: 'son of a b*&%$ b&#$%#*.' Being my intermediary might be too stressful for her. Maybe if I prepare her properly so she knows what to expect?

I can't think of anyone else to ask to be an intermediary. The lawyer does seem like an obvious choice, especially for legal matters. I would think it would be expensive to use her services for minor child-related matters.

I can't think of any mutual friends I would feel comfortable asking to be the intermediary. I'll keep thinking.

WH just called to tell me he won't be able to come over and work in the yard tomorrow morning as we had planned, he might be able to make it late in the day. Not a big deal to me, since it was his idea to come over anyway and I hadn't told the kids he was coming over. We had a pleasant conversation about what it is like staying at his parents' house. He asked about the kids and I told him about their activities today. He didn't ask to speak to them and I didn't offer to get them. He was using his gentle, kind voice, not the cold, cruel WH voice.

He had told me, when he called me earlier in the week, that he had 'plans' today. When he called tonight, he told me about the weather at his parents' house today (it's by a lake nearby), as if he had been there most of the day. I wonder if he had MOW up for the day at his parents' house. Ick!!! If he did, I hope she enjoyed seeing all the pictures of our family all over the walls.

Oh, I found out that if we refinance the mortgage loan, I could probably afford to buy out WH's half of the house with my share of the equity. Of course, he would have to agree to refinance.

So now I am even less impressed by his threat to make me sell the house.

That would certainly take care of the moving issue. I don't know why you would need to refinance with your husband's permission. As long as you split assets, the lawyer could certainly work that out. Refinancing right now should still be really competitive. My WW still wants the D. We have three houses, so to split the equity, she'll take out a big second on one of the houses, give it to me, and I'll refinance the home I'm in now.

She'll be really ticked next weekend though when she hears DS8 isn't going back to Europe. The lawyer says I'm in a pretty strong position to get custody. I'm essentially reversing the parenting plan, and she won't be able to come to the U.S. as much as I can go there for various reasons. I may be in Plan B soon. WW broke up with OM a week ago Monday. Serious depression. Maybe you already read <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

If/when your WH comes back, you might want him to hang out at a neutral site for a couple of weeks while his brain drugs wear off <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

I'm thinking about you Pebbles. Be safe.

SIS.

Sorry to hear your Plan A is struggling. My Plan A is about to get ugly. I'm

Hi, KaylaAndy.

Would you please provide that link in plain text, it didn't work for me.

Thanks,
Gimble

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
===================================
Gimble, I'm glad you brought this up. I do need to prepare my mom for what to expect and how to handle being my intermediary. I looked in SAA again last night and couldn't find anything about how to prepare an intermediary. My mom has volunteered for the job, but I don't want her to be at the receiving end of WH's anger and I don't want to add any undue stress to her life. What kinds of things should she be prepared for? And how should I tell her to handle them?
===================================

Having a male to act as intermediary would be better, but sometimes you have to use what is available. How is your mom at being very straight and matter of fact? She would have to be capable of putting your wayward husband in his place if his anger leaks out toward her.

As to what she should be prepared for, that would have to be whatever she lets him do. Ideally, she simply passes messages of import, only after having been properly filtered.

"You need to pick the kids up at 8:00."

Things she should be able to filter, that never make it to your ears;

"Husband said you were low down and no good. He and other woman burned your plan B letter".

That should be filtered, unless it went something like this;

"Husband said you were low down and no good. He and other woman burned your plan B letter, and caught his apartment on fire."

While it might not help your peace, it would certainly make you feel better :-)

I am sure that others with good solid Plan B advice will filter in over the next couple of days. You may want to change the subject of your thread to something like "Getting ready for Plan B - need advice"

God bless,
Gimble

Gimble, I've editted this to comply with TOS as posted by Tempest. See the "Other Web Sites" section.

I have been following your thread. You sure have a lot going on! Poor WW, feeling depressed (insert sarcasm here). I guess losing one's boyfriend (emphasis on 'boy') <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> will do that, along with leaving one's family behind.

You know, my mind can't even think that far ahead right now. WH always sounds like he's happy to talk to me when he calls, but then he's so underhanded and weird with the legal stuff. Maybe there's an alien debriefing center somewhere.

Thanks, Sleepless. I'm rooting for you, too.


Now that's not nice, leaving a cliff-hanger like that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You've got to come back and finish your sentence.

My mom is very good at being straight and matter of fact. I just hope it's not too internally stressful for her. She has always been able to stand up for herself and not take any you-know-what.

Hee, hee, no, that message wouldn't need to be filtered.

Thanks for the suggestion, Gimble. In fact, I shamelessly cut and pasted it as the subject of my thread.

WH just called again, that's twice in two days. He asked to take the kids out to dinner Wed. night. I found out from my son, later, that WH wants to take the kids to get me a Mother's Day card 'or something.'

He didn't ask to speak to the kids. I asked him if he wanted to. He spoke to our son, but our daughter didn't want to talk to him.

Now that he's so angry with me about the legal issues, why is he calling more often - and being nice when he calls - and planning to help the kids get something for me for Mother's Day? I don't get it.

I'm starting my Plan B letter after the kids are asleep.

Okay, here is a rough draft of my Plan B letter. I borrowed heavily from the format of starz's Plan B letter, which she said in her thread was basic MB with a few personal items added. Of course, I changed the personal items to fit my circumstances.

My Dear Bam-Bam,

I have loved you since the first moment I met you 23 years ago. I still love you now, and will probably always love you. It is so ingrained in me, I doubt that I could quit loving you if I tried. But I cannot live this way any longer.

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with ..... possible. I know I put emphasis on the wrong things. I focused too much on the children, my job, and my own interests. I neglected to take care of you and appreciate you in the way you deserve, and for this I am truly sorry. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I have made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. I have already shown a willingness to change. But I cannot do anything more until you end your relationship with ......

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. If you wish to communicate with me about any legal matters, you can call my lawyer. If you need to communicate with me regarding our children, please contact my mother. If there are things you need from the house or garage, please contact my mother to arrange a time to pick them up.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with ......, and I simply cannot be in contact with you any longer knowing that you are still in contact with her. I still love you and I have no desire to hurt you, but I cannot see you under these conditions. As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from ..... and are willing to protect our relationship from her and all other women, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other’s needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend. Forever.

I loved you when I first met you, I loved you when we were married and when our children were born. I loved you through our sadness and our joys, and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot see you or talk to you as long as you are communicating with or seeing ....


With my love,
Pebbles

Please let me know what I should add, change, or delete to make my Plan B letter more effective. When it receives final approval, I plan to hand write it on nice stationery and hand deliver it.

Thank you!

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
====================================
WH just called again, that's twice in two days. He asked to take the kids out to dinner Wed. night. I found out from my son, later, that WH wants to take the kids to get me a Mother's Day card 'or something.'
====================================

Interesting. You weren't invited?

Is it paranoia, or does the setup sound suspicious to you too?

The mixed signals regarding the legal and his being a dad, and still being your husband, even if he thinks he doesn't want to be, is pretty normal. The fun part for you, is trying to figure out what part is mixed up, or coached, or bad choices. If you can't figure it out, assume all three :-)

My guess would be that he wants to help the kids honor you as their mother due to his guilt, and because he is probably feeling cheesy about getting other woman a present for mothers day.

I like your Plan B letter, but wait and get others comments. Definitely don't deliver it to him until the legal issues are handled.

God bless,
Gimble

No, I wasn't invited. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> He seemed surprised that I agreed to let the kids go with him. Maybe it's paranoia on my part, too, but the setup does sound suspicious to me. What do you think he may have in mind? I don't really think he would take the children and not return them to me, but I must admit that the possibility is something I fear.

Edited to add: I don't want to overreact. He is probably just acting out of guilt or trying to be nice.

So, this is what normal feels like?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Good to know, at least.

Ick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Thank you. I should know if he signs the custody/visitation agreement in a few days (when his 10-day limit ends). If he doesn't sign, then we'll have to go to court. If he doesn't sign, should I go ahead and Plan B now - or wait until we go to court?

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
=========================
If he doesn't sign, should I go ahead and Plan B now?
=========================

I think it would be a good idea to wait until time is up to make that decision.

Situations tend to change rapidly at this stage of 'the game'.

I didn't mean to scare you with the paranoia. I am just wondering if other woman will be in close proximity while he is shopping and dining. He may need a gentle reminder that the other woman in proximity to your children is unacceptable.

"Hubby, I hope that you will honor my stipulation that the children are not to be around John's wife."

Time for me to sleep now :-)

God bless,
Gimble

Oh! Yes, I will gently remind him. No need to chance the children running into the mother replacement while shopping for Mother's Day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Good night, Gimble, or is it good morning? Thanks again.

Pebs - I'll reply again later after reviewing your letter, but I wanted to float these thoughts to you in the meantime.

Plan B with kids is dern difficult. Been there done that.

Plan B is also easily ridiculed and misunderstood by anyone not familiar with the disease of infidelity or MB principles. Very easily ridiculed and misunderstood. There's been more than a few Plan B'ers reporting how their WS's attorneys have twisted and rebutted the Plan B letter into accusations of childish "silent treatment" to the detriment of "smooth family functioning" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> and have threatened legal action if the BS doesn't improve their communications. It's harmful to the children. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I mention this not to dampen your plans for Plan B, but to support my recommendation that you have your attorney buy-in to the Plan B approach. Loan him/her your copy of SAA. Discuss potential reactions of your husband. Just plan ahead.

I do not think having your Mom as intermediary is a smart idea for the reasons already mentioned - she'll have understandable difficulty staying away from the LBs, etc., and your H will likely not be inclined to view her as objective or be cooperative.

Further, In my view, the intermediary scheme is the weakest piece of the entire MB approach. What sane person - other than a Mom or a die hard MBer - would agree to such a role?

These thoughts motivated me to not have an intermediary for my Plan B. Instead, I stipulated in my letter that communication needed to be limited to that needed for our son and that was to be accomplished via e-mail or other written forms. This worked in my sitch. It also affords the BS more control over communications. An intermediary, despite good intentions, can deliver a lot of unintended messages in both directions.

WAT

I'll throw another opinion in here...

I would NOT allow a visit with WH...alone...until the papers are signed. Where is the incentive for him to sign them? Also, what recourse do you have if she "shows up" (which is very likely).

You can offer to go, but keep your distance, or for them not to go at all...or for the paper work to get back to you, and hten they can go...if they want to...DD may choose not to, and I wouldn't force her, there will be plenty of time later.

WH wants to normalize his A as soon as possible, by including the kids into his fantasy.

What will likely happen is OW will not leave her H, and WH and Pebs will be D. After the fallout WH will look back onto the mess that is his life and want to get back to the happy family with you. Will you have enough love left? How will you protect that love?

A few suggestions on your letter -


You will not probably "always" love him, so please consider not saying this. Further, you did not love him from the first moment you met him, right? So don't say that, either.


Please consider working into this passage the pain you're enduring and the threat the continued affair has upon your love for him.



Please consider working into this paragraph that the reason you need to minimize contact with him is to minimize your pain and to preserve what remaining love you have. If you don't say this, it appears you're limiting contact as some sort of punishment to him.


I suggest you change this to something like, "As soon as you are willing to commit to our marriage and family, I will be willing to discuss our future together." Reason: don't focus on OW or other women. Solely leaving OW isn't enough - it's merely the start.


Change "We need...." to "We can..." or "We have the opportunity...." Saying "We need...." is controlling.



Again, you didn't love him when you first met.

You cannot see him or talk to him because of the pain it causes you and to preserve your remaining love.

Hope this helps.

For another example, here is a letter I helped a former poster prepare. Not necessarily perfect, just another example:

WAT

WAT, thank you so much for your input and advice on my Plan B letter and Plan B in general.

I am thinking about using contact through e-mail, about the children only. That would spare my mother the stress of being the intermediary, and avoid the delivery of unintended messages. Plus, WH might be hesitant to contact my mother, knowing she is upset (to say the least) with him right now. I suppose if WH tried to insert other topics in his e-mails, I could reply only to child-related questions/comments. Also, it might not be considered the "silent treatment" by WH's lawyer, since contact about the children is allowed. I would still okay this with my lawyer. Would I need to include something in my Plan B letter about e-mail contact about the children only, no other topics?

I saw another Plan B letter draft here on the board (edited: the letter was not so you neak's - my brain cells are fading) that has parts that look like they would work very well in my circumstances. Maybe I could cut and paste parts of it instead of/in addition to what I have. I am afraid to branch out too much on my own. And I used to enjoy creative writing so much. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

P.S. I also liked the letter you included in your post. I could use some ideas from it as well.

Very good points, StillHere. He did sound surprised that I agreed to let him take the kids to dinner, etc. I'll call the lawyer to see if he's signed the papers and if he intends to do so. If he hasn't signed them by Wednesday, maybe I'll have to tell him I was sure he would have signed by then, but since he hasn't, the children will not be able to go out with him alone.

I wonder what his delay is in signing the agreement???? It would guarantee he would get to have his kids, alone, overnight, just without MOW for 90 days. Of course, he still thinks he is the one who is having to 'give up everything.'<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

WH would be very angry (but what else is new<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). Unfortunately, the lawyer told me that once the papers are signed the children are required by law to go with WH, unless he says they don't have to. I could be held in contempt of the order if I don't release the children to him on his visitation days.

That is what worries me. Part of me wants to keep up my fantasy that WH is just trying to be with his kids and be a good dad, and maybe even do something nice for me. Reality is seeping in to tell me that he wants to replace me with MOW, in his life and the children's, to make his new life legitimate (gag).

Hopefully Plan B will protect the love that I have left for him. He sure is doing his best to snuff it out. Someday he'll have to realize what a mess he's made (any sane person would, wouldn't they?), but how long will it take? He seems to be deeply entrenched in his new reality.

Another question about e-mail contact regarding the kids during Plan B: The only e-mail address WH has right now is very offensive to me. It is a combination of her first name and his first name. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Do I have to put up with receiving and sending e-mails to that address, or could I somehow ask him to get a new one? Maybe a free hotmail address?

The e-mail address gets me like a knife twisting in my heart. I found out about it by accident after he left, while I was checking my car insurance information on line. Through some snooping, I found out that e-mail address has been active for at least a year. So the affair, if it hadn't already started by then, started soon after, I'm sure. WH will only admit to a PA of one year, although he says he has known MOW 'for years' through friends at work, so the EA could have been going on for much, much longer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

It's things like the e-mail address that make me think his affair is so deeply entrenched that there is not much hope for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Is he the deluded one in the fog, or am I??

I feeling pretty depressed right now. It's hard for me to see anything promising about anything that has happened between us since he left. If any of you can remind me of anything, or find something promising that has happened, I'd love to read it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Here is another version of my Plan B letter. I used parts from several letters I've seen here, and added a few ideas of my own. Many thanks to the MBers I have plagarized. I'm afraid it may be a bit choppy and repetitious, and it needs to flow better, but it's late and I'm sooo tired. I would appreciate your suggestions.

My Dear ****,

Everything I have said to you about how much I love you and the hope I have for the restoration of our family has been true. Much has happened recently, but even today I still love you and want a chance to repair our relationship and provide a healthy home for our children.

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with *** possible. I know I put emphasis on the wrong things. I focused too much on the children, my job, and my own interests. I neglected to take care of you and appreciate you in the way you deserve, and for this I am truly sorry. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I have made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. I have already shown a willingness to change. You can help me, and together we can build a new and better marriage that will be a solid foundation for our children, and a source of joy for the two of us. We owe it to our family to try.

You may not know what I have endured because of your decision to separate and because of your relationship with ***. I know that the difficult situation we are in now is just a symptom of the problems that already existed in our marriage, and that we both carry a share of the blame for that. Still, nothing is so wrong that it cannot be fixed if we both work together.

It has become too painful for me to continue to see or talk to you while you continue your relationship with ***. I love you so much, but that love is being terribly damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else. Thus, I am separating from you in order to protect myself from further pain until you are ready to commit to rebuilding our family.

Until you decide to recommit to our marriage and family, please do not communicate with me directly. If you need to communicate with me regarding legal matters, please contact (my lawyer). If you wish to communicate regarding the children, please email me at (e-mail address).

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way, but please remember at every moment that I would much rather rebuild our marriage. The children and I are the ones who can help you learn to be truly happy for the rest of your life. We are a permanent part of you, and we have so many good memories to carry us through the hard times ahead. I want us to be able to meet each other’s needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy.

I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend. Forever. You can come to me in safety, knowing I will embrace you, then we can talk about what it will take to shape a secure future for our family, one in which we will never need to separate like this again.

With my love,
Pebbles

Well, there's my hodge-podge Plan B letter. Please let me know what can be done to fix it up. Thank you!

Consider throwing in some "emergency" caveat, e.g., "Until you decide to recommit to our marriage and family, please do not communicate with me directly unless there is a real emergency involving your or the children's safety."

About the e-mail address, I suggest you grin and bear it. Try to see it as confirmation of his alien abduction or signifying the adolescent behavior - how sophomoric, a combination of their first names.

But I really understand your nausea about that simple thing. Everytime I have to send an e-mail to my XW or address paper mail to her (for items concerning our surviving son), I have to type or write her new last name - the last name of my former friend and pallbearer for my deceased son. But then I remember that she WASN'T having an affair. It was just serendipity that she married the guy she wasn't having an affair with just 5 months after our divorce. And the best kicker - why get married when being married didn't mean anything? Thanks. Proof still that the Mothership is real.

WAT

What is hopeful about this situation is that IF he had kown her for years (and very likely from your research...) then why hadn't he left before? Why? Because you had given him a big chunk of EN's he needed. If he was able to get it all from MOW then he would have left sooner.

I predict what will happen is that once Plan B begins the MOW will be failing in trying to keep up with WH's EN's and going through a D...and allthe life issues...the fantasay bubble will burst.

I am concerned about your DD. WH didn't just leave you...he left her too. She is feeling the same betrayal you are feeling. Can you include in the visitation paper work to allow her the CHOICE of whether she wants to visit with WH or not?

The thing I would change about the Plan B letter is to be VERY clear what a recommitment would look like...a path home...NC with MOW, full accountability of time and disclosure of the A, stop the D paperwork, etc...what are the VERY practical terms you would need to see before you would consider ending Plan B?

I gave my FWH a list of things to do. His comment was, "Why are you forcing me to do this." My answer? "I have no control over what you do, you either choose to do this or not, or somewhere in between, then it is up to me to deal with what is happening. I wrote this letter to expalin I can't put up with this behavior any longer, and what I would need to begin to rebuild this M...the choice is up to you."

I actually gave my H a 5 point list. Not appropriate for most WS's, but in my case, with a H who works very well with lists, very appropriate.

When I read PBL I get a little confused about what the BS needs for recovery, and I think that needs to be spelled out a bit clearer...otherwise it's too easy for there to be a false recovery. Once a clear line is drawn about what is needed, then once each item is accomplished the BS and WS are clear about how recovery is proceeding...
My 5 point list?
NC with letter sent
Meet with IC
Talk with Dr. about meds
Accountability of time and money.
Spend more time, attention, and affection with me and kids.

Those last 2 were not as easy to quantify and the hardest hurdles in recovery.

I guess if you could learn anything from my example is to be VERY clear about what you need before recovery begins.

Hi Pebbles, I've been following your thread and it looks like we're both standing at the deep end of the same pool. Let's hold hands and jump together... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

WAT and StillHere, thank you for your input on my revised PBL. I will make changes to it tonight and see what you think.

Notso, I have been following your thread, too. That's where I got a large portion of my revised PBL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Thanks! I'm almost ready to jump with you, but you might have to pull me in. I just hope there's water in the pool. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Big News Today!
I got a call from my lawyer this afternoon that WH signed the visitation/custody agreement today!!! She had given him 10 days to sign the agreement or we would take him to court. This was day 8 of the 10. I am so...happy?? I don't really know what feeling I have. Relief? After over two months of WH delaying and trying to make changes, he finally signed it.

The lawyer wants me to come in tomorrow so I can sign the agreement, and so we can plan when I want the divorce papers served (to begin securing financial support). I'll have to start breaking the news to the kids that they'll be spending next Wednesday night with their dad, and that weekend! That will be three overnights next week, a huge change from seeing him once a week - or less. I guess I can't expect that he'll be willing to let them adjust gradually to staying at his place. I'm sure he'll want every overnight from the very first week. I'll have the kids this weekend because of Mother's Day, thankfully.

It looks like things are really happening now. I'd better get my Plan B letter finalized and ready to go.

I was sooooo flattered when I recognized some familiar phrases. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Steal to your heart's content - I love it! Do you have a B-day set yet? Mine is still pending the VP's attempt to dissipate the fog, but will probably be on or before the weekend. I'm going to try and copy my letter by hand today. Best of luck, Pebs, I'm right here with you, and we have an awesome cheering section.

No, not yet. Probably very soon. I need to show my Plan B letter to my lawyer first, to make sure I'm not giving WH any legal ammunition to use against me.

Thank you, and best of luck to you, too! You'll let us know how it goes, right?

Good idea. Thanks. What about little things regarding the children, such as "I'll be 15 minutes late picking them up," etc? Would voicemail be okay for something like that? I might not see an email in time. I want to be prepared for anything that might happen.

Ick. But okay, I'll have to be the mature one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> He may even be too embarrassed to use 'their' email address. He doesn't seem to want me to know anything about her.

Ick. It's bad enough that my OP is someone I don't know (at least I don't think I've ever met her). I think it would be even worse if it were someone I knew and had trusted.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way. And I'm sure the stress of trying to support WH through a divorce, especially if she starts her own divorce, will be a big dose of reality for the 'happy couple.' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Unfortunately, that option was not available. We would need to go through a mediator in order for my daughter or son to have their wishes considered, and then have a court date for custody. An appointment for a mediator would not be available until October (according to my lawyer). Court-ordered financial support would not begin until that time as well (custody and support would be handled together at the same court date). Besides, if we went to court, WH would probably be granted more custody and visitation than what he has in the agreement he just signed.

I didn't think of this. Do you have any suggestions as to how I could word it so it sounds important but not controlling, and where would I include it in the letter? Important to me would be NC, some kind of counseling (MC most likely), accountability of time and money, and more time, attention, and affection with me and kids. I just don't want it to sound too controlling or off-putting.

WAT, I changed the communication paragraph in PBL v.2. How is this?

Until you decide to recommit to our marriage and family, please do not communicate with me directly unless there is a real emergency involving your or the children's safety. If you need to communicate with me regarding legal matters, please contact (my lawyer). If you need to communicate regarding the children, please email me at (e-mail address).

I'm still wondering about what to do about the "I can't take the kids this Saturday" or "I'm running late to pick up the kids" kind of situations. Would that be assumed okay for email contact? Text message? Also, according to our custody/visitation agreement, we are supposed to mutually agree on all medications, doctors, etc. (this is basic to all joint custody agreements where I live, apparently). Would I need to contact him by email for those kinds of things?

The closer Plan B gets, the more confused I am. It seems, because of the children, we will need to have some sort of contact.

Edited to add: I'm somewhat surprised that WH signed the agreement. Part of me was expecting him to take it to court, just to make me suffer and/or to try to get his way. I wonder what changed his mind?

What a dork I am. If he hadn't signed it, I would be upset and wondering what to think. Now that he has signed it, I'm upset and wondering what to think. I know, Pebbles, just knock it off and think about your Plan B letter!

Oh, when do you think I should have him served with the divorce papers? ASAP or wait a few days?

About the 15 minutes late type situations - I think you cannot avoid ALL communication. A pristine Plan B with kids is not possible, IMHO. Just minimize the interactions. If and when they have to occur, make your participation very Plan A-like. No cold shoulders, no frowns, no LBs - but no filling ENs, either. This is counterintuitive, so you have to consciously work at it.


I have no experience with this, but my intuition says you should do file and deliver the Plan B letter all in the same motion. I know others will say to delay the Plan B letter for a while after filing.

Either way - here's something I hadn't thought of in your sitch - perhaps you should mention the filing in the Plan B letter, your reasons for doing it, and the fact that it can be reversed when he commits to the family. Otherwise, the Plan B letter and filing may be contradictory. Did you get words in the filing that specify your real intent to salvage the marriage?

WAT

About the emergency situations? I would use a family memeber, a go-between. It would be pretty simple for you to call Mom and "Would you mind calling WH and telling him I'll be 15 minutes late, or I'm on my way." You think she would be OK with that...and you can ask the same of him.

I like your ideas about specifics to add to the PBL. How about adding with a statement like...

You've said you are not interested in saving our M, but if things were to change, and you would like to work on recovering our M there are some things I would need........
I remain hopeful recovery will still happen.

This lights the path back to your door, and the secret knock you will need before you will open it, but it proclaims your door will be tightly shut and locked until he uses the secret knock.

Plan B is VERY scary on this side...and VERY scary the first few weeks.

Plan MANY activities to keep yourself busy. Stay away from phones, email, any way of contacting WH...the addiction to contact him is very strong in the beginning. Don't allow yourself any excuse. Rely on your friends...contact them when the urge arises to break Plan B. Go to movies, where you have to turn off your phone, be creative...

Plan B is FOR YOU...not to sway the heart of the WS. The A has a life of it's own, completely removed from the M. The WS will do what they want... Plan B allows a break, a vacation, from the constant thinking, strategizing, etc...and gives you peace. It allows you to preserve what love you have so the A can run it's course...

Here are the latest revisions to my PBL, taking into account your advice, WAT and StillHere. I may still need to add something to the communication paragraph, but I can't think of what right now - WH was just here and I can't think straight.

My Dear ****,

Everything I have said to you about how much I love you and the hope I have for the restoration of our family has been true. Much has happened recently, but even today I still love you and want a chance to repair our relationship and provide a healthy home for our children. It is with a heavy heart that I have filed divorce paperwork. I have done so only to ensure financial support for our children and myself. I still want to be your wife and I have no desire to divorce, and the process can easily be reversed should you decide to recommit to our marriage and our family.

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with *** possible. I know I put emphasis on the wrong things. I focused too much on the children, my job, and my own interests. I neglected to take care of you and appreciate you in the way you deserve, and for this I am truly sorry. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I have made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. I have already shown a willingness to change; I have been working hard to keep the house clean and organized and my finances better managed. You can help me, and together we can build a new and better marriage that will be a solid foundation for our children, and a source of joy for the two of us. I think we owe it to our family to try.

You may not know what I have endured because of your decision to separate and because of your relationship with ***. I know that the difficult situation we are in now is just a symptom of the problems that already existed in our marriage, and that we both carry a share of the blame for that. Still, nothing is so wrong that it cannot be fixed if we both work together.

It has become too painful for me to continue to see or talk to you while you continue your relationship with ***. I love you so much, but that love is being terribly damaged by the pain of knowing you are with someone else. Thus, I am separating from you in order to protect myself from further pain until you are ready to commit to rebuilding our family.

Until you decide to recommit to our marriage and family, please do not communicate with me directly unless there is an emergency involving your or the children’s health or safety. If you need to communicate regarding legal matters, please contact (my lawyer). If you wish to communicate about routine matters regarding the children, please email me at (e-mail address).

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you in this way, but please remember at every moment that I would much rather rebuild our marriage. The children and I are the ones who can help you learn to be truly happy for the rest of your life. We are a permanent part of you, and we have so many good memories to carry us through the hard times ahead. The path back home is simple: cease all contact, permanently, with *** and sincerely commit to rebuilding our marriage and our family. I want us to be able to meet each other’s needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. I know we can build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy.

I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend, too. You can come to me in safety, knowing I will embrace you, then we can talk about what it will take to shape a secure future for our family, one in which we will never need to separate like this again.

With all my love,
Pebbles

Well, it's kind of wordy (like me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />). What do you think of this version?

***Plan A Last Gasp***

It looks like I have about one week of Plan A left. My lawyer sent the D paperwork to the court today to file. It should be ready to serve late next week. I guess I'll be putting my all into the final breaths of my Plan A until then. I will need to make the choice between having him served at work (in front of all his affair-enabling buddies) or having the lawyer call him to pick up the papers from her office (who knows how long he'd take to do that, even though he says he's in such a hurry to divorce). What do you think I should do?

WH took the kids out to dinner tonight - and to get me something for Mother's Day, according to our son and some hints from WH. Before they left, he looked around the back yard to check on what kind of work needed to be done (Mr. Fixit). At first he wouldn't look me in the eye, but he did a few times later on and ended up smiling and laughing with me and the kids.

He also put an envelope on the counter with a check in it (the memo on it says it's for his half of the house payment). Our son's orthodontist bill was also in the envelope. I guess I'm supposed to pay it with the check he gave me? WH didn't say anything about the envelope, just put it on the counter without a word.

Any more thoughts or advice for me? Thanks!

I told myself I wouldn't reply to my own posts tonight, but here I am doing it anyway. Oh well, when I talk to myself, at least I know somebody's listening, LOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know no one can tell what is going on in WH's mind, but I am going to ask what you think anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> When WH brought the kids back tonight, our daughter had a bag of clothes she had chosen and he had bought while they were out. I thanked him with a smile (although if he were providing financial support she would not be wearing old, tattered clothes in the first place). Our son couldn't find any clothes he wanted, apparently.

The kids also had a bag with a box of some sort in it that they said I couldn't see until Mother's Day. Our son hid it in his room somewhere. WH stayed for a while and chatted with us while the kids watched their pre-bedtime cartoon. He actually initiated conversation with me and smiled at me.

Our next door neighbor knocked on the door to tell me that our dogs had gotten out. While I had the front door open, WH seemed to almost hide from our neighbor as if he didn't want to be seen. He didn't get up to help me get the dogs back in (we have two dogs and it was dark - and he would have helped, before).

Eventually I told the kids it was getting late and they needed to get ready for bed. WH took the hint and said good-bye. I walked him out and closed the door so the kids couldn't hear because I wanted to set up a time to discuss the newly signed visitation schedule. I was very pleasant, and not at all scary <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />, but it almost seemed as if he was afraid of me. He leaned against the wall and looked at the ground, wouldn't even look at me. He just kind of mumbled, "Uh, yeah, okay. Bye." He slumped off after that. I didn't press him to set up a definite time.

Maybe he has to have his weekend schedule approved by MOW before he can set up visits. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Hmmm...of course, everything bad in the world is my fault <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />, but I didn't know I was terrifying enough to make a grown man cower in fear(?). He is about 7 inches taller and 80 pounds heavier than I am - was he afraid I was going to beat him up? I haven't even used any LBs since the first days after he left.

Humor me, it's the end of my Plan A - interpret the alien behavior, please. All guilt?

Hey, Pebbles, got to run - the lights are going out tonight. I'll let you know tomorrow how the water is...

Good luck, notso! I'm holding my breath for you!

Hi, Pebbles.

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... I will need to make the choice between having him served at work (in front of all his affair-enabling buddies) or having the lawyer call him to pick up the papers from her office ...
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I would have him served at work, Especially since exposing his affair, there, is the next order of business.

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Humor me, it's the end of my Plan A - interpret the alien behavior, please. All guilt?
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A lot of guilt, and he probably has a nasty of some sort planned, chaired by the puppeteer. I don't want to make you paranoid again, though :-)

I have been keeping up with your progress. You are doing well, Pebbles.

How is your daughter doing with all this. Is she still not talking to her dad?

God bless,
Gimble

You know me too well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> It does seem whenever he is nice to me, something nasty is waiting around the corner. And when he looked like he was afraid of me, it was kind of like a little boy who is afraid he is going to be punished (maybe for something he is planning to do?). Maybe my Mother's Day gift is really a box of dog poo. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Gimble.

Well, she does love shopping - for herself - so him taking her to buy clothes was a good idea on his part. She still wouldn't hug back when he hugged her good-bye. Actually, both kids seemed okay when they got home. It was nice that it was just a few hours. They could start getting used to being with him again.

Hi, Pebbles.

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Well, she does love shopping - for herself - so him taking her to buy clothes was a good idea on his part. She still wouldn't hug back when he hugged her good-bye. Actually, both kids seemed okay when they got home. It was nice that it was just a few hours. They could start getting used to being with him again.
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Hmmmm.... Here is what I am wondering. I wonder if while they were shopping, a strange woman in a store acted very surprised to see your husband, as if she knew him a long time ago and then they chatted a bit, her in a very animated way, him - somewhat subdued.

I'm not saying that to upset you, and don't let it. It really is funny in a sad way if true. I doubt that he would have planned such an incident. And if it actually happened, would almost be stalking.

I am just thinking out loud (frightening, isn't it) because his actions as you described them, set off my BS warning flags.

Anyway, he can only buy off the kids for so long. At some point in time, he has to actually act like a father. I am sure that will come, and that will be a truly good day for the kids.

God bless,
Gimble

Pebbles,

I think that you've done really well with your letter!

I agree, though, that you need to watch out for your WH, it sounds like he's got something up his sleeve. I do think that it's sweet, though, that he arranged for the kids to have something to give you on Mother's Day. I wonder if OW knows that he did that...

As for the D papers - I say to have them served at work. He obviously has no problem flaunting his situation around his work buddies, and having them served there will save him from having to tell all the guys about it later. Plus, if OW catches what's going on, it might hit her with some reality. She's probably also living in a fantasy world, and D papers might be more than she's ever encountered with any of her OM. Hopefully it will shake things up between them.

I wish you the best!

Cat

Hi Pebs - I think your letter is good. (Of course I would <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

Some could argue it's too long or too whatever - you are the final arbiter. You know your H - or at least the person he used to be - and are the only one to know how to say things to him.

You understand that Bam Bam can no longer be Mr. Fixit in Plan B, right? If you didn't understand this, go over your letter and see if you need to make any changes to specify that you do not need/want his assistance as Mr. Fixit.

I will not try to interpret his recent statements or actions - I've learned not to attempt this in my experience on this forum. It's futile. That said - I understand your analytical urges. I still try to figure out my XW and OM. Fortunately, I'm not capable of doing that - if I was, what would that say about MY rationality? As long as you stay perplexed, you're sane.

WAT
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That we can treat our spouses and others so cruely shows we have not yet finished evolving as a species.

Gimble, I casually asked the kids some questions about their outing with their dad last night. According to them, none of the three of them saw anyone they knew while they were out. Our son chose the restaurant and our daughter chose the store, so it would have been hard for MOW to have planned to meet them. Our daughter also said it was her idea to buy clothes, not her dad's (that's my girl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). So it looks, on the surface at least, to have been an innocent evening.

Cat, I agree, his behavior does seem suspicious (although no weirder than it's been all along <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). I can't imagine what he might have planned to spring on me. Anybody have any ideas what I should be on the lookout for?

I do wonder if MOW knows about the Mother's Day gift. The skeptic in me wonders if it was her idea, to placate me and keep me under control. The gift buying expedition is something WH would have done in pre-alien abduction times. I don't want to have false hope that there's a little bit of the old H sneaking out.

About him not looking me in the eye and seeming afraid of me when he left last night, I'm wondering if it's the shame he's feeling again. He has said a few times that he feels ashamed when he looks at me. If there really is any of the good man left down inside of him, he would have to be ashamed of how he's treated the kids and me. And I haven't been accusing him or LBing him, so it has to be his own concience causing him to feel that way. Maybe there's hope for him?

So, I would be 'helping' him to serve him at work, to save time informing his enabling buddies. Well, since it's the end of my Plan A, I guess I should be helpful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Although, WH and his buddies may go out to lunch to celebrate the filing of the divorce paperwork.

I hope the D papers do insert another dose of reality into la-la land. WH will get the summons for the financial support court date along with the D papers - surprise!

Cat, I just noticed your wedding date is May 11! I wish you the best. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, WAT, and thanks for all the help. I do wonder if it's a bit too long, but I have small handwriting so maybe it won't look too long written out.

Yes, I know. I will miss Mr. Fixit (sigh), he was a handy guy - and looked darn good in a tool belt. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Hopefully WH will miss Mr. Fixit, too.

In that case, I must be one of the most sane people on earth. Add that to the power WH seems to think I have to make bad things happen to him...and I can begin my plan to take over the world (mwaaahaahaa).

On a serious, scary note, after reading Ron53's thread I realized that I haven't been tested for STDs! I meant to, but put it off (dumb), and now I don't have health insurance. I unknowingly was exposed to God knows what for almost a year before D-day - without protection (we were monogamous, I thought). And from her husband, I know that WH is not MOW's first and only affair. Of course, WH told me 'she's not like that' when he first left and I was upset that I might have been exposed to something. Ick, ick, ick!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> How ....(I can't even think of a word)... of him to take away my choice whether or not to be exposed to STDs.

Morning, Pebbles.

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How ....(I can't even think of a word)... of him to take away my choice whether or not to be exposed to STDs.
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How about 'duplicitous' ?

God bless,
Gimble

OK, you can release your breath now. I jumped in and climbed right back out. If you have to swim for a while, I'll sit here at the edge of the pool and chat to keep you company. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Good luck!

Pond scummy?

Oh, that's two words.

Pondscummy.

WAT

Gimble and WAT, how about duplicitouspondscummy?

Notso, it looks like your Plan B had an immediate effect! Way to go! I'm not sure that my Plan B will have any effect on my WH at all, except for the party WH and MOW will have burning the letter.

*****************
I was just thinking about the check and ortho bill WH left for me on the counter when he visited. Is he really expecting me to pay the entire ortho bill (balloon payment of several hundred dollars)? The check memo says "my half of mortgage payment." I'm thinking of calling him and saying, "I used the check for your half of the mortgage, as you intended. Will you be sending your half of the ortho bill directly to the orthodontist or would you like to give me a check?" Maybe this is part of his 'no financial support' plan. Well, there's no way I can pay the whole bill, and he is legally responsible for half.

I was just rereading the visitation/custody agreement. It states that whoever has health insurance coverage available through work must provide it for the children. WH is the only one of the two of us with insurance available. He had wanted this part of the agreement deleted. I wonder if he noticed it was there when he signed.

I'm wondering how the weekend visits are going to work out with the children's social schedules. Next weekend is supposed to be the first overnight with WH (maybe - he seemed too afraid of me to talk about planning the other night). My daughter has already made plans to have two friends spend the night that Saturday night. I know neither friend's parents will allow their daughter to stay at WH's place. Will he make her cancel her plans, I wonder?

Just brainstorming... Which do you think would best?

1) Have the divorce papers served at WH's work, then present him with my PBL a few days (or so) later.

2) Have the divorce papers and PBL letter presented at about the same time. The lawyer said no letter conveying my intent could be sent with the papers - we're in a no-fault state. I would need to present the PBL separately, so this may be a difficult option to execute.

3) A new option: Present the PBL a day or so before the divorce papers are served (since the PBL states that I do not want a divorce and have only filed to secure financial support). I realize this option would nullify the element of surprise of having the papers served at work. He may somehow try to avoid being served, if he knows to expect it.

Or, maybe there is another option I haven't thought of. I would appreciate any opinions and suggestions. Thank you!

Hi Pebbles.

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I'm wondering how the weekend visits are going to work out with the children's social schedules.
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Sounds like that will be the first problem for him to solve without your input. My guess is that the kids will quickly learn that other kid's parents don't trust their dad because of his choices. That is a consequence. Maybe they will spend lots of Dad's weekends at other kids houses.

They will learn to schedule fun things with friends when they are at home. They will likely call time spent with you "at home" since it has been in the past, and your husband's abode, "Dad's place".

Something for you to remember if things go that far; When the 90 days are up, and John's wife gets introduced to the kids, it would be a nice gesture on your part to have already told your kids how to address her. I suggest that they call her by her married last name, rather than the less formal "Miss Nancy". As long as she is still married, a Mrs. before her married last name would be appropriate. :-)

Your kids are not pawns. That is likely how they would be instructed to address any other stranger. Like any other stranger, they are not required to trust or obey this person. They are required to offer basic respect, but no more. At least that is what I think about it, and how my wife and I instructed our then young daughter regarding some family member's 'special friends'.

I pray that your marriage is restored long before the 90 days are up.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi, Pebbles.

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1) Have the divorce papers served at WH's work, then present him with my PBL a few days (or so) later.
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If the papers don't require a signature, then I like the first choice, only send the Plan B letter via certified mail as opposed to handing it to him. I do suggest that you go dark the second he is served. He is going to want to talk about why all this is the right thing to do.

If the papers require his signature, then wait until he has signed before giving him the Plan B letter.

My $0.02 worth,
Gimble

My children have been taught to always address married women as "Mrs. Lastname." When we have discussed their dad and his relationship, I always refer to her as "Mrs. Lastname," as is proper and appropriate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is how I feel, too. If the time comes when they must meet her, I will tell them they must not be disrespectful to Mrs. Lastname (call her names, stick their tongues out at her, etc.), but they do not have to hug her or obey her as they would a parent.

Thank you, Gimble. I pray that every day. Also, thank you for your input on the timing of delivering the divorce papers and Plan B letter. I am pretty sure he will have to sign the divorce papers. They will be delivered by a process server.

Can you elaborate on this, Pebs? I'm confused.

Is it that the intent to recover the marriage - as explained in the PBL - contradicts filing for divorce? Doesn't the divorce paperwork spell out that divorce is being sought for continuing adultery and that if it ends than divorce isn't necessary? Or is the divorce filing sanitary on this? What is your basis for the divorce filing?

Seems to me that the divorce filing can be entirely compatible with Plan B, recognizing that the filing is required to secure certain legal protections for you and the children - no other vehicle exists to do this in your state. You have no choice.

WAT

I think that you should do this. I would also ask him when he will be adding the children back on the health insurance as per the agreement and point out that they are currently going without any coverage. As his parent, he would have to pay any medical expenses out of pocket. Does he really want to do that?


Pebbles, I think you should have him served with D papers at work and then send him the Plan B letter a couple of days later. That would give you an opportunity to tell him that you do not want a divorce, but felt compelled to file because he had cut off financial support. I think its important that he understand you are not doing it to punish him. The idea is to make sure that you go into Plan B on the best terms possible.

I live in California, WAT, the land of no fault. There are only two boxes to check on the divorce paperwork, either that divorce is being sought for 'irreconcilable differences' or 'reason of mental defect or insanity.' In my case, I had no choice but to check the box for 'irreconcilable differences.' Nothing can be added stating my true reasons for filing, and adultery will not be mentioned anywhere in the paperwork. WH will receive the D papers and a summons that says I am suing him for financial support.

So, if one were to go by just the paperwork WH will receive it would appear that I want out of the marriage and I want to sue him for money. That is why I want to explain in my Plan B letter that I do not want a divorce and I feel I have no other choice but to file for divorce to ensure financial support. I have told WH more than once that I want to reconcile. He might be happy about me filing for divorce, but he will be upset about me suing for financial support. I am sure he will think I am punishing him.

Yes, I have no other choice. I have to file for a divorce in order to obtain court-ordered financial support. Since he refuses to support us of his own accord, a court order is the only option available to me. Of course, he will think I'm just being vindictive.

Thank you, MelodyLane, my exercise vidiot sister <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, I appreciate your input. I do want to make sure he understands that I am not doing this to punish him. I want to go into Plan B with him having memories of me being kind to him, not with memories of me being a vindictive b*&%$. So, do you think I should tell him in person, orally, after he receive the D paperwork, before I give him the Plan B letter?

Pebbles, I just finished an upper body [censored] whooping with Cathe! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> She is one bad hombre!

What do you think of this? When he is served the D papers, have some talking points prepared, something like:

I am sorry you are so upset, dear. Please understand that I do not want a divorce, I want our marriage to work. In the meantime, I have to make sure our children have financial support since you have withheld support.

Say this to him over and over and again and be as pleasant as possible. THEN, a week later, mail him the Plan B letter. A week should give you plenty of time to assure him you don't want a divorce and are not punishing him. I think the D papers will give him a much needed jolt. The Plan B letter a week later will enhance that reality check.

Are you prepared to go into Plan B? It usually infuriates the WS at first and he will likely try to get you to break Plan B so he can get his Pebbles fix. Are you prepared for that?

Ah, Cathe, she's one tough chica. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It was TLP Core Cardio for me. I feel so empowered working out on an aircraft carrier and hoisting a medicine ball around.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

MelodyLane, I'm not even sure that he will call me and talk to me after he is served with the paperwork. He might turn the tables and 'go dark' on me. So far, he has usually been the one initiating contact. I have only called him a couple times, the kids have never called him. I like your idea about repeatedly telling him why I filed the papers.

Am I ready? No...yes...maybe...I guess I'll have to be. Maybe I'm a bit of a masochist. I kind of look forward to his calls and visits, even though they are painful for me. I even kept one of his messages on the answering machine so I could hear his voice <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />, until my son helpfully cleared all the messages.

My biggest fear is that it won't bother him when I go dark, or that he'll be relieved not to have to deal with me any more. He has repeatedly said that he wants a divorce as soon as possible (even though he is the one who keeps delaying everything). I guess Plan B is the way to insert more reality into la-la land and find out what he really feels.

OK, I understand.

Seems 'reason of mental defect or insanity' is appropriate, since there's no check box for 'alien abduction.'

WAT

I looked for the 'alien abduction' check box, but it was nowhere to be found. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> There was also no check box for 'head stuck up hiney.' Sadly, to check the mental defect or insanity box I would have to supply proof of a diagnosis or proof of irrational behavior. Apparently California law does not see abandoning one's family (physically and financially) for a skank as irrational behavior. So, when it all comes down to it, it will look like I want a divorce because of irreconcilable differences.

Guilt is a many spendored thing. I opened the Mother's Day gift WH took the kids out to shop for Wed. evening. It was very sweet, even thoughtful. When I thanked the kids, I asked them if they picked it out all by themselves. My daughter said, "We helped a little. Dad did most of it."

Now I'm depressed. This seems like something my H would have done, before. He always made a big deal out of Mother's Day, breakfast in bed, flowers, taking us out to dinner, etc. Now I think of him spending the day with his MOW. She is a mother, although her son lives with her husband (she left them, but lives with them from time to time). She probably has her son with her today. WH is probably making a big fuss over her and treating them nicely. Of course, I have no idea what is really going on, my betrayed spouse mind is running loose.

We haven't heard from him since Wed. He usually comes over on Sundays to work on things and see the kids, but today no word at all. I am thinking of calling him later today and thanking him for helping the kids choose a gift for me.

I know I shouldn't try to understand what he is doing or what he is thinking, because it doesn't make sense, but I sure wish I could.

Oooooooh no, I betcha it isn't going like that at all, Pebbles. He is probably sitting there feeling homesick and realizing how weird it feels without you and the kids. The holidays are usually a big splash of reality for a WS. I wouldn't call him at all, don't deprive him of his homesickness. I bet he is feeling very homesick today and you will hear from him tonight or tomorrow.

MelodyLane, I hope you're right. I hope he is sitting in his apartment all alone, wondering what we're doing. Many posts back, Gimble said that the whole affair is probably so much less than what I imagine. I would like to think that is the case, because in my imagination he has replaced every part I had in his life with 'her.' I sometimes wonder if he even thinks about me at all.

***Edited to add: Hmmm, since MOW is not even in the process of divorcing, according to her husband, I wonder if my WH spends any time with her son (who just happens to be a few months older than our son). Maybe she was with her son for Mother's Day and WH was not with them. But again, what do I know??****

I didn't call him today. He never called. The kids and I did go out to dinner with my parents and sister for a couple hours this evening. WH has taken to calling the home phone and not leaving a message or trying to reach me on my cell phone if there is no answer. He could have called during that time, but I doubt it.

He is going to have to talk to me sometime about planning when the kids will start spending Wednesday nights and every other weekend with him. I wonder if the nasty surprise he must be planning for me has something to do with that. I would think that since he supposedly misses his kids so much, he would be in a hurry to plan the overnights????

Hang in there Pebbles. You sound like a wonderful strong mother. Revel in the love of your kids. Try not to think about what WH is doing. Your mind can make it much worse than reality. Plus your husband didn't just abduct your kids. I set out Stargazer lillies and wine for my wife for Mother's day before I left. She left everything, but took the His Needs Her Needs book.... and our son!

Thanks, Sleepless. My daughter hugged me today, umprompted, and said, "I know you always love me, Mommy. I love you, too." My son, who is bigger than I am, sat on my lap and cuddled me. It was cute, until my legs fell asleep. WH is missing out on all of that. I pity him.

I do have an active imagination (you think?). And you may not have noticed (ha, ha), but I tend to overanalyze things. I can't help wondering what he is up to, though. I wish I had a spy. Although, some of what he is up to might be too nauseating for a family audience.

I can't believe she really did it! She must be desperate. I read in your thread that you have Homeland Security after her. That should bring her down to earth pretty quickly. Yes, at least I have my kids. I thank God for that. I hope you have your son back soon!!

I just had a thought (take cover). By the time the divorce papers are ready to be served later this week, and if I wait a few days after that to send the Plan B letter, it will be my 40th birthday. Happy(?) birthday to me. I guess it will be my 'B'-day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hey there Pebs

Just had an addition to the PBL...is there any way you can define a little clearer what recomittment to the M would look like to you? You mention NC and recommitment to the M...but that could mean different things to different people, and too many a BS have accepted too little because they weren't clear...

I'm thinking of you.

Interesting the way DD and DS reacted to the visit with DWH. DD may want to suck WH dry, and DS may resent the way WH is trying to buy them off. In the words of Dr. Phil "Be a soft place for them to land..." when they come home...no pressure...

Bam Bam WILL come around SOMEDAY...it may be tomorrow, in 6 months or in 16 years. It is COMPLETELY up to you what YOUR plan is...how long you will wait...how you will live your life in the meantime...waiting around? or being a better person? I vote being a better person?

That doesn't mean not to look back...but going forward while you are FACED forward, and not going forward while you are facing backwards...you may trip and fall.

COncentrate on those lovelies you share a household with...don't let thoughts of strategy and impending doom of hte MOW and WH invade your space. Make decisions based on what is best foryou and the kids. Take the love you have for him and lock it away...keep it safe and secure...it is small and fragile...

Sounds like me. Are you an engineer?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


On the bright side, my 40th was spent flying to Paris to have a really weak party thrown by the OM and my WW. In retrospect, I got nauseus! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Sorry. It kind of sounds like I'm holding a pity party. Just perspective. You need to treat yourself. Where in California?? I have a house in San Pedro. You should be able to buy yourself a nice Crab or Lobster, maybe a steak. A good beer, bottle of wine or sparkling cider and do something you would normally never do! That's what I'll be doing for Father's day.

Oh, I can relate to the 40th b-day/d-day thing.

I was not dreading my 40th, as many do. I did that right after #39...thinking about it coming up etc. Did all the thinking and stuff in advance.

Shortly after 40th b-day was d-day and found out the first time for the A was the one or two days before my 40th. GAG!

And then the next month I found out I had to have surgery...huge mass...maybe cancer etc...waited a week to find out it wasn't...blech! what a horrible time. And it was around the time of our 20th anniversary too. It was not the memory I wanted for those two milestones.

StillHere, I agree that I should make the meaning of recommittment more clear. I'm not quite sure how to word it. WH still says that he has absolutely no interest in reconciliation, so I didn't want to overwhelm him. Do you have any suggestions how to word it clearly but not in a controlling fashion? I am also adding to the first paragraph that I did not file for divorce and court-ordered support as punishment, I did so because it's the only way I can be sure of having financial support for the kids.

Thank you. I really appreciate your kind thoughts and advice.

Well said. I think Plan B will help me with this. It will remove me from the drama and intrigue and the constant wondering about what WH is up to. I will be able to concentrate just on the kids, my own life, and my job (which will be very busy the next few weeks). It is fascinating to me, though, how such a seemingly good, moral man could change so much. It's almost like driving past a car accident - I'm horrified to look, yet I can't tear my eyes away.

Nope, I teach fourth grade. I guess there is some amount of engineering involved. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I teach 9- and 10-year-olds how to do long division and how to find the main idea of a paragraph, among other things. Only 17 days of school left until summer vacation!!

I'm in the central Central Valley, the land of fruit, nuts, fault lines, and no-fault divorce. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Some friends from work are going to take me out to dinner for my birthday. It should be one of the first overnights the kids have with WH (my birthday, no kids <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ). Wine will definitely be involved. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there, Sleepless. I admire you for being able to keep your sense of humor (as well as your sanity) with all you have going on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

marriedandlonely, you sure had a lot to deal with around the time of your 40th birthday, even surgery! I really don't have a problem with turning 40. I feel 25 inside, and I'm told I look about 30 on the outside. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I never felt 'old' at all until D-day and what has followed. I found my first gray hair the other day. I have blonde hair, so I'm telling myself it looks like highlighting. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And now I have these lovely dark circles under my eyes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Oh well, things have to get better from here, right?

I have some questions about executing social situations during Plan B. These may have been covered on the board, but I can't find them so I'd appreciate any advice.

There is a spring musical and open house next week at my and our daughter's school, possibly after Plan B has begun. I invited WH. Everyone at school knows our sordid story (small school). If WH attends, I will have to see him, I am his daughter's teacher. Maybe he won't attend. He even tried to hide (it seemed) from our next-door neighbor when he came to the door while WH was visiting. I would think he would want to be there for his daughter, though.

The week after that is our son's 8th-grade graduation. I invited WH and his parents. Most of our son's friends' parents know what is going on. I will be there with my parents and sister.

How do I handle Plan B and contact with WH in these situations?

Pebbles, I wouldn't worry too much about it. You want to try and avoid him as much as you can, but there are some events that can't be avoided. You don't have to sit with him or communicate him, though. If he approaches you, simply nod politely and walk away.

Am headed in to do my Cathe workout. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, MelodyLane.

The social situations will be very awkward for WH, I would think, especially the one at my school. There are people there who want to yell at him - or worse. And he'll have to face my parents and sister. I'm sure people will be whispering about him. He's going to have to have b*&&% of steel, or a head of steel, to show up there. Maybe he thinks no one will have a problem with what he's done, since he is okay with it. I kind of hope he does show up and it's hell for him, to show him the consequences of his actions and inject a dose of reality into la-la land.

I'm doing Cathe tonight, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles, I think this event might be just the ticket for Mr Romeo! It would do him some good to face some folks who know right from wrong for a change.

I can't tell you how disgusted I remain at your in-laws. What kind of people call themselves "family" who "support" a family member in WRONG DOING? What the hell kind of support is that?? That is like handing a drug addict some crack and calling it "support." That ain't support, that is cowardice!

Have you pointed out to your inlaws that their idea of "support" is not support at all? A loving family would help their son be his best, not his [/i]worst.[/i] A loving family would not enable their son to tear apart their grandchildren's lives. I cannot fathom sitting by idly while my son acted like an unmanly scumbag - I love my son too much to ever accept him like that. I suspect they would rather enable their son than risk his anger at them.

[/rant]

I think you hit the nail right on the head. Can you see where WH got his conflict-avoiding technique?

From what my in-laws have told me, they have only spoken to him two or three times since he left us. One of those times was the infamous dinner where WH showed up with his 'lady' (I use the term very loosely) friend. They are not a very close family. I have spoken to my in-laws more than WH has.

Well, Pebs, which Cathe are you doing tonight? I did Muscle Endurance, sans that silly Elvis-no-equipment exercise. I always skip over that one. Yesterday I did Cardio Step Mix [Firm] after having done only the elliptical for my cardio for the last 3 months and my calves are quite sore tonight! I didn't realize that step aerobics did such a number on calves.

Which is your favorite cardio workout? I think my all-time favorite is Cardio Step Mix. That is the most fun cardio I have ever found and I have done it so much over the years that my tape is pretty shot. I had to have DH tape it together for me.

You know, I just remembered when my last H left me in 1999 [20 yr marriage] was when I discovered home workouts. I threw myself into the Firm's Tough Tape and Volume 1. For that hour that I did those tapes every day, I would lose myself in my workout. It was the only peace I found for some time. Do you find some comfort in working out, Pebbles?

I did Supersets. I like the depressing love songs set to the Dynamix beat ("Now that you're gone, all that's left is this band of gold..."). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> And I get to use so many of my fitness toys with Supersets!

I really like Cardio Step Mix, too. It's fun. I made a backup copy on a DVD-R, for my own personal use, of course (if the copyright police are listening). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> My favorites depend on my mood. I guess I'd have to say IMAX 2, TLP Core Cardio, Christi Taylor Still Jumpin', and Cathe Powermax ("Wiiild thaaaang..." ).

Absolutely. I've always enjoyed working out, but now it helps keep me sane. It's great to focus on not tripping over my feet (or the dogs or kids) for an hour, instead of thinking about the soap opera that is my life right now. Rock on, my vidiot sister! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

WH finally called right before the kids went to bed tonight, five days since he took the kids Mother's Day shopping Wed. of last week. I told myself I would not call him, that I would wait until he called.

As one of my final Plan A moments, how do you think I did?

I was cheerful and friendly. I thanked him for helping the kids choose a gift for me and told him that I really liked it. He was using his gentle, human voice. I asked him if he wanted to talk to the kids and told him I wanted to talk to him afterwards. Daughter wouldn't talk. As I left the room, I heard Son say, "Yeah, she really liked it."

When I got the phone back, I thanked him for the check for half the mortgage and I asked him about paying his half of the orthodontist bill. He said that was what the savings account money was for (the money that I put in my own account when he withdrew financial support - my half of the tax refund). I told him very calmly that I was saving that money to make sure the kids and I could afford groceries. He said he had no money and couldn't afford to give us any more money to pay the bill. Poor baby, living on 3x my salary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And what happened to all the other money that was in the savings account??? (I didn't say that to him).

This confused me: He sent my lawyer that note that he was no longer providing financial support, and told me so himself. Tonight he told me that the check he'd given me was all he could afford to give me this month. Huh? Is he providing financial support or not?? By the way, the check he gave me was about one-third the total of the court-ordered support he'll be paying soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

We didn't argue, stayed friendly, although I could tell he wanted me to get mad a few times. I asked him what his plans were for seeing the kids this week. He said he wanted to come over Wed. to fix the shower. I asked him again about seeing the kids. He said, "I thought you wanted to talk about planning it." We agreed that we'd discuss it when he came over to fix the shower. I told him that I was really glad he was going to fix it, because it was driving me bananas and he always seems to have the 'touch' with those kinds of things (which is true, and goes toward his ENs of being appreciated and being the knight in shining armor).

I told him that I didn't think we should discuss visitation in front of the kids. He agreed, but didn't offer to change his plans. The phone battery was dying, so I had to go.

Does this sound like a man who is wanting to have his kids overnight? He was so weird with the custody/visitation agreement...and now this.

I'm almost thinking that MOW has moved in with him (conjecture, no proof) and he has to find a way to deal with the stipulation of 90 days of no contact between her and the kids. He did say that they wouldn't live together until their divorces were final, because she has 'morals' (gag!!). Why else wouldn't he want the kids to go over to his place, after all the fuss he made? My overactive imagination again?

Well, anyway, what do you think? Did I handle this okay?

Hey I'm in monterey you should come visit sometime i'd love to have you guys....lord knows I could use the company pebbles....hey did you come see the great white we had in our aquarium a few months ago?

Hi, Pebbles.

I think that you handled yourself well. Good job!

Quote:
=========================
I'm almost thinking that MOW has moved in with him (conjecture, no proof) and he has to find a way to deal with the stipulation of 90 days of no contact between her and the kids. He did say that they wouldn't live together until their divorces were final, because she has 'morals' (gag!!). Why else wouldn't he want the kids to go over to his place, after all the fuss he made? My overactive imagination again?
=========================

I couldn't guess about her already living at his place, but I bet she has more than a toothbrush there.

No doubt they are spending every available minute together. The kids will definitely throw a kink into the happy nesting plans (retch factor intentional).

I do want to encourage you that if he should break the rules, that you offer no second chances. That means if she is around them before the 90 day waiting period, you get him into legal trouble. It could even mean a protection order against John's wife to stay away from your kids, but that is wishful thinking :-)

I hope that she stays away, and that your hubby has an epiphany regarding his current level of stupidity, 'real soon now'.

Just wait until he has to write the first check, and catch up on his support. I wonder how long John's wife is going to support him? I bet John is not going to be very happy, even if John is a 'lay down'.

Fun times ahead, Pebbles, it is jut a matter of how you choose to perceive it :-)

God bless,
Gimble

I love Monterey! I just took my class to the aquarium there last month. We didn't get to see the great white, but we enjoyed the jellies and the hands-on things very much. Of course, the gift shop was the main attraction. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It would be great if we could see you sometime. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Gimble. I even brought up some of the hard stuff, no conflict avoiding on my part, without allowing myself to get baited into an argument. Progress!

As nauseated as I am about the thought of them having cohabitating toothbrushes and spending every spare minute together, it may be a good thing as far as popping the fantasy bubble. If they're together so often, they're bound to run into some real-life situations and conflicts, especially once WH has to start spending his money on child support. Maybe it would be a good thing if they were living together (did I say that?). That would really make visitation and contacting us difficult.

I have already made it clear to WH that if the children are subjected to MOW, I will be calling my lawyer the very next day. I don't know what the penalty would be, but he would be violating the visitation/custody order - that would have to be bad.

I don't know what is up with John. What kind of man would let his wife behave this way and put up with it? My lawyer couldn't find any record of John or his wife filing for divorce as of last week.

I have to say, I'm almost looking forward to having the divorce papers/summons for financial support served. I just hope part of his nasty surprise for me isn't that he will have me served first (imagination running wild again - stop it, Pebbles). Judging by his actions so far, it seems like he will wait for me to make the move and then react to it with MOW's input and 'wise' advice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You know, being served with the paperwork, then being subjected to being with my disapproving family and coworkers at the school functions could put a damper on WH's 'happy new life.' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Do you think he'd be deluded enough to show up with 'her' at the social functions?

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
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I don't know what is up with John. What kind of man would let his wife behave this way and put up with it? My lawyer couldn't find any record of John or his wife filing for divorce as of last week.
=============================

That doesn't surprise me that they haven't filed. So, the bet is on which one will get cold feet first. My bet is on John's wife. I figure that she has done this before. It would also explain some of John's behavior. It may be that John doesn't really care about her enough to worry about a fling.

Quote:
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Judging by his actions so far, it seems like he will wait for me to make the move and then react to it with MOW's input and 'wise' advice.
=============================

That would also be PAR for the course.

Quote:
=============================
Do you think he'd be deluded enough to show up with 'her' at the social functions?
=============================

I don't think he will be deluded enough to want to, but I bet she will insist that he include her. After all, she will want to show off her prowess at getting what she wants. I bet she is a real piece of work, Pebbles.

What else do you know about her?

I'm off to bed now; got to get my 5 hours of beauty sleep :-)

God bless,
Gimble

Hi Pebs -

On the upcoming school functions it's too bad you invited him. If you send the Plan B letter in the meanitme, you will appear to him as being contradictory and you would have to keep your distance at the events - not sit with him.

Two possible solutions: first, hold off Plan B until after these functions and any more at which he reasonably expects to join the family. The downside to this is that others attending don't have the power to stare at his as much. Outsiders will not understand your Plan A personna and may think all is better.

Second: proceed with Plan B even if it's before the events. If he shows up and wants to "family" with you, politely ask him if he's ready to meet the conditions of your letter - if not, inform him that you thus cannot interact with him and please honor your requests in the letter. This, by the way, should be your standard interaction with him throughout Plan B. When it occurs - which it will - put on your best Plan A demeanor.

On the subject of the financial support, I see a train wreck coming - and you're watching from a safe distance. Keep doing what you're doing regarding deflecting all financial "violations" to your attorney. Do not budge one inch. Do not compromise.

Same with the visitation with the skankylosaur. Any detected violation and you launch the nuke. Bam Bam has no idea what he's in store for.

You're in a perfect spot, all things considered. Just stick to your rights and impose the legal constraints and turmoil in LaLa Land is practically guaranteed.

Also, I recommend you send a copy of the Plan B letter to his family, with a hand written note expressing your desire to rebuild you family for the benefit of all.

WAT

well lets get to schedulin sometime....I am too much of a home body...i have no life.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> i need to get out....plus I got a futon so if you all need a place to stay you can bunk here hotels here can be so expensive....email me sometime and we can talk about it more Tigeressts@gmail.com

That's really nice of you, Surviving. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Once things settle down a bit, I'll email you. For now, I don't even know which kid will be where when (if that makes sense). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Gimble, I only spoke to John once, for about 10 minutes, but when I told him about his wife's relationship with my husband, he said, "Well, it wouldn't be the first time." He didn't sound like he gave a rat's patootie about what his wife is up to. Of course, I don't know him so I can't be sure what his feelings were/are.

Interestingly, the outgoing message on John's answering maching is: "You have reached the home of John and Skank ****..." Also interesting, WH got very upset with me for calling and 'harrassing' John. I didn't tell him I had called, so John or his wife must have said something.

From various sources, this is what I know: She is 6-7 years older than I am, works in an auto parts store, and has lived at her parents' house, in various apartments in different cities, and with her husband and son off and on for the last few years. She is not divorced, although WH at first told me she had been divorced for a year. Later he said she was in the process of divorcing. She is a friend of mutal friends through WH's work.

My mother-in-law called her the anti-Pebbles, because MOW is apparently my opposite in looks. She told me that MOW is very plain (I'm not gorgeous, but I'm not plain), somewhat heavy ('stocky' was the word she used), and totally opposite of me in coloring (dark hair and eyes, olive skin). My father-in-law, who has been supportive of me, except for this one comment, said, "She definitely doesn't seem like anyone a person would leave a happy marriage for." Gee, thanks FIL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

My MIL asked her why her son does not live with her. MOW said that once she figures out where she is 'going to land' he might stay with her.

She does sound like a real prize. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> WH seems to think so, anyway.

WAT, unfortunately, according to our custody/visitation plan, I have to keep him informed of school events. I wouldn't want him to find out later and somehow use it against me.

This is most likely the option I'll use. It will work better with the timing of serving the paperwork and it will be less confusing to observers. Besides, it might make the situations more awkward for him - the consequences of his actions.

I will definitely not budge on the financial support and interaction with the skankylosaur (perfect word for her, by the way). One time when he whined to me, "It's not fair that I'm the one who has to give up everything!" I told him, "But look at what you've gained! Isn't it worth it?" If he wants his new life, he's going to have to abide by the legal terms and make the necessary sacrifices.

I'm thinking there may be some amount of turmoil already. He definitely doesn't seem 'happy.' Of course, it's all my fault. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

My enabling in-laws. I wonder what they would think. I have told them that I want to rebuild our marriage, and they say they hope it happens, but then they have dinner with WH and the skankylosaur. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I can't imagine what is going to happen during his visit to 'fix the shower' tomorrow evening. Should be interesting.

Hey there, Pebs, just popping in for a moment to say hi before I go to bed. We had a meeting with our VP tonight, and as he is a good friend it lasted till really late. I woke up a little while ago as he was getting ready to leave. For I-don't-know-how-long I had been sitting opposite him at our dining room table, fast asleep with my chin propped up in my hand, and a small trail of drool running down my hand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I never claimed to be an arbiter of societal couthness, but that was a new low, even for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Hope everything is going on track for you, and keep smiling. You're doing great! (If you haven't slobbered all over yourself in public you're ahead of me...LOL)

I understand about "informing." By "invite" I meant the normal usage of the word - you requested he join you.

No matter - I think the option you've chosen is the right one.

This will be a good opportunity for you to establish your Plan B interaction ritual. Plan A when you have to interact, but no more. If/when he attempts additional interaction, (calmly) "I prefer not to interact with you as I have already described. (smile)"

WAT

Well, I did miss my mouth while drinking a can of Diet Pepsi at school today, in front of my class. One of my students asked me if I needed a bib. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like things are going well for you, Notso. I'm happy for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're right, WAT. I did ask him to join us. I guess I wasn't thinking ahead.

That's what I'll do. I have a feeling he'll be too uncomfortable to interact with me too much, with all those eyes on him. If he even shows up, he may just sit in the back and try to stay under the radar. Or maybe he'll want to act like nothing has happened and we're a happy family. In other words, I don't have a clue what will happen. At least I'll be ready, either way.

Thanks, WAT.

I'm going to post my (hopefully) final revised Plan B letter later on.

Well, it was another very Plan A, confusing visit. WH came over and fixed the shower and did some work in the yard. He called to tell me he was running late. Since he's left, he occasionally just shows up late. He was always very punctual, before he left us. This is the first time he has called me to let me know he would be late.

My attempts to fill ENs: He explained what was wrong with the shower and showed me the offending parts. I listened and admired his expertise (genuinely - I am clueless about such things). I asked him for advice on driving times for an out-of-town field trip I'm taking my class on soon.

I could tell he felt left out part of the time. The kids were watching their before-bed T.V. show on what used to be 'our' bed. I got in the middle between them and they both snuggled with me. WH sat on the floor and watched us, joining in the conversation occasionally. The kids and I laughed a lot, with him joining in off and on. It was like he was on the outside, looking in.

After the kids went to bed, we planned when he will start his overnight visitations. He asked me if I thought we should wait until school was out for him to have the kids overnight during the school week. I told him that, of course, it was his right to keep them overnight now, if he wanted, but that I thought it would be best for the kids if we waited. He was very agreeable and cooperative. The whole thing was very friendly. After all the fuss he made before, delaying the agreement and being so weird last week when I asked him to set up a time to plan visitation, I was expecting him to try to argue with me.

He used his human voice the whole visit (not the cold WH voice). At first he wouldn't look me in the eyes, but he did by the end of the evening. We actually had some very nice conversation. Confusing.

He made plans to come back and work on more things this weekend, with more fixing planned in the future (which will, sadly, not happen due to Plan B). I will miss Mr. Fixit! My heart aches just thinking about it.

It seemed like a pretty good Plan A visit, to me. Of course, paranoid me, I'm thinking if he was so nice to me, something bad is bound to happen soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
==============================
... I got in the middle between them and they both snuggled with me. WH sat on the floor and watched us, joining in the conversation occasionally. ...
==============================

I like this, especially with him watching. I bet that will stick to him.

As for your being Mrs. Fixit, If you are friends with an understanding family, you could ask the husband over (with the wife) to take care of basic maintenance and repairs. Your hubby will hear about it, even in Plan B. He won't like someone else messing about 'his' stuff. This is good :-) If you are involved in a church or synagogue , you might consider talking to someone in leadership about your plan and the resulting needs. This could be part of your support group.

Have you got all your Plan B support lined up otherwise?

I think you did a great Plan A visit. Don't worry about what wayward husband will do next. You have done a good job with your prep work. If he throws you a curve ball, show him what you've got and knock it out of the park anyway :-)

All the best,
Gimble

Hi, Gimble!

He did seem a bit wistful. A few other times during the visit I noticed him watching while the kids and I were talking, laughing, or hugging. The kids and I have always been very physically demonstrative with each other. WH used to be that way with us, too, not any more.

Oh, I made sure to let him know I needed him to take the kids the evening of my birthday next week - because I have 'plans.' I do have plans with friends. He won't have the kids overnight, by mutual agreement, since it is a school night. I told him that I would cut my evening short to be home to receive the kids (or maybe I should ask my mom to be here to receive them?). I plan on looking really good when he picks the kids up that evening. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I do know quite a few people who will be willing to help me fix things in Plan B. I have several neighbors who have offered to help, I have my mom and dad, and also friends from work and the church associated with the school where I work. I think I will miss Mr. Fixit most because we have always had some of our best conversations while he is fixing something. And I find him very attractive when he is fixing things (I'm blushing).

I think so. I won't have an intermediary, per se. Communication, when necessary, will be through my lawyer and email (I will only respond to emails regarding the children). I have ordered caller ID for the phone so the kids can answer if he calls, if they want to. I'm probably forgetting something.

Thanks, Gimble. I think I've done about as much as I can do with my Plan A. Any more and he might think we can be 'friends,' with him coming over to play family when he feels like it, then returning to MOW. Now we'll see what he's got. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I called my lawyer today. She said she expects the support summons back from court Thursday or Friday, at the latest Monday of next week. Then, WH will be served. Surprise!

I still think it's funny that he has said he is in such a hurry for a divorce...but he is the one delaying everything so far.

Yes, pretty funny - and very typical.

I agree with Gimble regarding seeking Fixit help. But I also suggest you take the opportunity to do it yourself. Even if you need to bail on an individual item and call for reinforcements, you'll likely learn something in the process. For the stuff you accomplish yourself - you'll get a good "accomplishment" jolt. Just stay away from electrical problems...........

WAT

Ouch! That one hit the mark. I LOVE IT. You appear to be luring him back young lady. Plan A and Plan B seem to be the art of teasing. I don't think I ever got the hang of it. Not that most men do. I just don't have the legs for it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (Hey Gimble, that's a joke)

Glad to see you're on track Pebbles. Yes the kids watching TV on the bed sounds like a textbook.

I was planning to take WW to a baseball game with DS8 this weekend, but something went awry. Not sure what yet.

I'm interested to hear how Plan B goes.

SIS

Sleepless, you are now the master of the understatement. 'Something went awry,' indeed! You are handling your situation so well. I hope you're really feeling as strong as you sound.

Well, I don't know how much WH has been lured, but God knows I've tried. WH probably won't feel too warm and fuzzy about me when the the divorce paperwork and financial support summons are served Monday (I just found out Monday is the day). Somehow, I don't think he'll be sending me flowers and chocolates for my birthday next week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> That's okay, I'll buy my own. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Actually, I feel pretty much at peace right now. Through this whole mess I've learned that I'm stronger than I thought I was - and a person can survive pretty much anything, if there is no other choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to caulk around the base of the shower this weekend, WAT! I went to the hardware store and everything. I'm sure I can figure out some of the fixit stuff, I've just never had to before. I will stay away from anything to do with electricity. The world is not ready for the ramifications of that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That's what happened to me on Mother's day. WW discovered DS8 wasn't going to Paris and she went James Bond on me. Apparently all it took was a letter from a lawyer to me. She figured I was going to sic one on her and she beat me to the punch. I only had her prepare a counter to the parenting plan WW filed in the divorce. Now I really have to pay the lawyer and go to court.

Just be ready for the unexpected. It might not happen, but be ready.

For Father's day last year, when my wife was in Europe (no father's day) and she forgot. DS8 and I cooked steak and crab at home. It was GOOD!

You're turning 40?? Send me your address and I'll mail you something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How did you get your kids to ignore your WH? I got a note from my 18 y.o. who is all torn up and he's got finals. He's more upset than me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Good job, Pebs - and don't put your fingers anyplace where you can't see 'em.

WAT

Oh my! My lawyer just called and said WH just got served the divorce papers and summons/court date for financial support at work! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> How appropriate, on Friday the 13th. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I guess the financial support papers are in the middle of the stack of papers he was served, so he may not have noticed them yet. He may be happy about the divorce papers. Maybe he and his buddies will go out after work tonight to celebrate - or maybe he'll celebrate privately with MOW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Party now, WH, because soon you'll pay. Hmm, that sounded a tad bitter, didn't it? Being blackmailed into filing for a divorce, it brings out the bitterness in me.

Gee, do you think he'll still want to come over this weekend to work in the yard? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

So, how long to wait to send the Plan B letter?

***********************************************************

Sleepless, I'm sure MOW will pull the puppet strings and get him to do something. But if I expect the unexpected, then it isn't unexpected anymore, is it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Umm, steak! I've never had crab, maybe it's time I tried it.

Sleepless, I'm sending myself a pretty flower arrangement and a nice bottle of wine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> My family (parents and sister) are taking the kids and me to dinner tonight, and my friends from work are taking me out on my actual birthday next week (Japanese food, yum). It sounds like I'll get to do some celebrating after all, even without my WH.

Actually, WH got the kids to ignore him all by himself. He doesn't call them more than once a week and sees them only once a week.

Your poor 18-year-old. This must be hard on him. I hope he is able to do okay on his finals. He is lucky to have such an understanding dad.

Funny, WAT. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I learned that lesson from my weenie dog. She stuck her nose in a hole in the ground and got it scratched by some critter. I don't want to be touching anything I can't see and identify. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Another thought about WH getting served...I wonder what I can expect him to do now. Anyone have experiences to share? What is the usual script for this situation?

Hi Pebbles! They all react differently, but if he calls just remember to act sweetly and avoid lovebusters.

IF he brings it up, tell him that you love him and don't want a divorce, but felt that you had to file in order to protect your children's financial interests since he cut off financial support. Just keep saying it over and over again and don't let him bait you into a fight.

If he doesn't bring it up, I wouldn't bring it up. Just act as normal as you can. I do hope you are not home when he returns the kids on your big night out. It would be nice if he did not know who you were going out with. If he asks, just say a "special friend" and leave it at that. It would be nice to make him wonder. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I would give it a week before you go into Plan B. That will give you an opportunity to clean up any damage from the divorce papers and to assure him you a) don't want a divorce and b) are not trying to punish him.

I'm with Mel on a little delay for Plan B if you delay at all.

You may need to have some discussion with him in the aftermath of being served, but I recommend you not wait too long. Perhaps his reaction will help determine this.

WAT

There you go! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Here in Seattle, Dungeness Crab is really good. It's pre-cooked and shipped, but if you just steam it for about 10 minutes, you're all set. Just start ripping off the legs and dipping the meat in butter. Pretend it's your WH's legs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Thank you Pebbles. I've gained a new insight now. When I'm not trying to cover for my wife's inadequacies, it's easier to have compassion for the kids. She put him in a REALLY awkward place, and that's not fair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I better go before I hijack your thread.

Stay away from the windows Pebbles!

WAT and MelodyLane, I wonder if he'll even mention that he was served, although he must know that I am aware of it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> This is so outside my realm of experience, I am at a loss as to what he will do. He is a conflict avoider, so he may not bring it up. On the other hand, he may be so angry that he wants to start an argument with me, in which case I'll be calm, pleasant, and explain why.

I can picture him consulting with MOW and his enabling work buddies to devise some plot to make me suffer. When he was here Wednesday, he said he would come over this weekend to fix some things. Wanna place a bet on if I hear from him or if he gives me the cold shoulder?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

MelodyLane, I told him I had 'plans' for my birthday. He didn't ask with whom, and I didn't volunteer the information. I am going to dress as I would for a night out with a 'special friend.' My work friends may be a bit surprised by my attire. I am usually wearing 'teacher clothes' when they see me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Maybe I'll ask my mom to be here when he brings the kids home. That would have the added benefit of being extremely uncomfortable for WH.

Who knows, WH may be so upset with me about the financial support that he decides to keep the kids overnight (it will be a Wednesday, his night), instead of just for the evening as we decided the other day, just to punish me.

I'm starting on hand-writing my Plan B letter this weekend. A short delay before sending it sounds like a good idea. I wonder if I will have the chance to discuss with him why I filed, before he gets the letter.

Sleepless, the lawyer told me I would be informed 'immediately' after WH was served. I wanted to joke, "Is that so I can keep an eye out for the hit man?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'm still chuckling that he was served on Friday the 13th.

*Glomps Pebbles* Muhahaha I love it...god I wish mine could have been served on such a memorable date.....you go girl *high five*

Hi, Pebbles.

WAT said:
=================================
You may need to have some discussion with him in the aftermath of being served, but I recommend you not wait too long. Perhaps his reaction will help determine this
=================================

I agree. Pebbles, if he gets nasty, go dark and give him the letter right away, otherwise, I really like the week that MEL proposed.

I hope you dress up drop dead gorgeous and return from your 'date' right as he brings the kids home :-]

I strongly suspect he isn't going to like not being able to keep up with you. Fun times ahead.

All the best,
Gimble

My dear Pebbles,

As for the MOW being happy, I think not. See he isn't the challenge anymore once he is headed for D. Too much baggage that can't be avoided.

He can skip out on you with her while you are both M, that's the sicko kind of A fun WS' and OP's like to have. It is a dare escapade that gives them a thrill walking on the edge of sanity. Once you remove that edge, the fun of the A is gone. That's the beauty of going to plan B or serving the D notice - when and only when the BS is ready. If the WS does it and the BS is not ready, then put a kink into their plans by stalling 'til you are. Ok but you beat him to the punch on this and of course he isn't going to like anyone telling him what t/d since that is NOT what WS are good at. LOL!!

Use this shortcoming to your advantage and IMHO, plan B should start immediately. I may have a different opinion than others but the more low key and aloof you become now, the greater impact you will have on the WS.

Remember it is your H you want back, not some smelly WS who has stench of an OW hanging out of his pocket.

Plan A your H but plan B the WS. Make sure you are ready for the consquences (which you s/b already since you filed the D). Need to make sure you are not doing this with any other motive than to remove yourself and family from the WS and the A drama while protecting your financial and emotional safety.

If the WS grumbles about how financially hard it w/b, remind him he has a supporter called MOW (no 1st names, just last names like: Mrs. MOW). Tell him that she must be able to make up for his obligations and if the A was that important, surely he can make sure he gives your family their 'full value'. Try to ask him what his take is on your family's worth (u know, in $$ terms). Mine told me we were 'priceless', so I told him I'd settle for 1 mill and it went down from there. LOL!!!!

L.

L.

Pebbles...

wait and see what his reaction and do NOT react, LB, or be anything but gracious...
be noncommittal and perhaps not so available ...
but do not be overtly dismissive....

My opinion is to be very wary of plan B letters that follow too closely a big event like the serving of papers as plan B will lose it value and be seen has a knee jerk reaction and an emotional ploy...

greater is the impact if you can be somewhat plan Aish in your approach for a short time period...
and then plan B....

Plan B is not opting out of post serving papers chaos...

Plan is opting out of WS chaos....Plan b is direct consequance of WS behavior and choices....not of WS reaction to being served...

keep your eyes open.
feel the pulse of this aftermath..
weather this storm with calmness...
avoid all powerstruggles and emotional interactions...
do not rush plan B...

ARK^^

Hi, Pebbles.

Here is an excerpt from an article written by Willard Harley on this website:

"Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B."

Plan B helps you preserve something of the love that you have left for your hubby. If his behavior post serving becomes unbearable, don't hesitate to remove yourself from it. That is not reacting to his behavior in an effort to punish, but to preserve yourself.

Basically put, at some point in time, probably very soon, you are going to find it very difficult not to engage in 'love busters' with him. Rather than implementing Plan B after a blown Plan A, do it while you have something left, and a good Plan A under your belt.

Folks here can make good suggestions as to when that should be, but you need to decide based on your capacity for the abuse you are living with, exactly when the proper time is.

God bless,
Gimble

Orchid, thank you for posting.

This could be true. According to MOWH, she has done this sort of thing before. My WH is not her first affair, and obviously she didn't stay with any of her other conquests. Why MOWH doesn't divorce her, I don't know.

It was important to me that I serve him before he served me. I feel like it gives me some measure of control over the situation. The lawyer told me that he can file motions to speed up the divorce, if he wants, but I can file continuances and delay the proceedings up to five years (hee, hee).

Thank you for your input, Orchid, it is much appreciated. I just want to make sure that he still knows I do not want a divorce. In his anger, he may see me filing as being vindictive, when in reality I felt blackmailed into filing because he decided not to financially support us.

Peeeyew, something definitely stinks about WH right now. I definitely have no interest in Mrs. Lastname's boyfriend.

Good one! He has already grumbled about how hard it is to support us financially, when he has been giving us only about one-third of what child support will be, if anything at all. If his new life and MOW are so great, then the child/spousal support should be a small price to pay to be rid of us, hmmm? MOW should be happy to help him out, since they are so 'in loooove,' don't you think?

Thank you for posting, ark.

If WH stays true to form, he will avoid me for a few days while he consults with his enablers and MOW. I may not see or hear from him until Wednesday of next week, his visitation evening with the kids. Truly, I didn't file out of anger, just financial concerns, so I can be calm and gracious when I interact with him.

Good points, ark. I do want to make sure he knows I am not punishing him and I am not trying to be vindictive. I will wait and see, for a short while, what his reaction will be.

Just an aside: The last time I spoke to WH's parents, I 'mentioned in passing' that he was no longer supporting us financially. I told them I 'would do anything I had to do' to protect the children - financially and otherwise. I think they will understand why I filed. They are enablers, though, so their understanding may not be worth much.

Thanks, Gimble.

I will remember this. I have put much effort into my Plan A, even though it may be short, and I don't want to blow it. At this point, as detached as it may seem, the whole situation seems like some kind of weird game. I almost look forward to situations where he tries to bait me into an argument, because I get to employ my strategy of being pleasant and calm. I'm sure I won't feel that way forever, though. It will be interesting to see what his reaction will be to the filing.

Just a note on the financial support issue. Here in California there is a computer program that determines child/spousal support based on the last year's tax return. The amount determined by the program is called 'guideline' support, which is what I have asked for in the papers WH was served.

My lawyer told me that WH has three choices: 1) he can agree to guideline support before we go to court (cheaper - no additional lawyer fees for WH); 2) we can go to court and I'll get the guideline support (judges always go with guideline figures); or 3) he can ignore the papers and not show up in court, which will make the guideline support go into effect automatically.

So, whatever he chooses, he'll be paying guideline support (plus a large portion of my legal fees). It's California law. If he tries not to pay, the court will attach his wages.

We'll see what his enabling buddies and MOW (who are not legal experts) will advise him to do. I wonder if they will try to tell him there is some way he can pay less. They have been very 'helpful' in informing him of his 'rights' so far (mostly bad advice).

Pebbles, will you get considerably more under the guidelines? I find it amazing that he actually thought he could just end financial support. That is extremely rare to ever see any WS try to pull that stunt. I wonder if MOW told him he should cut off all financial support since you wouldn't let him take the kids?

MelodyLane, the guideline support is at least 3x what he has been giving us, when he has given us anything at all. I'm sure either MOW or some enabling buddies at work told him that pulling financial support would make me more compliant and desperate, so I would give in to any demands he might make. WH even sent a handwritten, signed letter to my lawyer that included a sentence about him no longer providing financial support. Dumb move. The lawyer is saving a copy to show the judge, if we end up in court.

Ha ha ha!!!! Wonder which 'advisor' told him to make that move? LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

L.

I have to admit, my respect for WH was knocked down a few more notches after he made this dumb move. I have always thought of him as being intelligent, responsible, and 'mature.' Some of the moves he's made are so obviously choreographed by someone else - not his style at all. He repeatedly promised me and his family that he would take care of us financially. I am amazed that he hasn't had the b#&&$ to stand up for what he knows is right and think for himself. Sad, really.

You know Pebbles, sometimes your situation sounds soooo much like mine. I keep up with your threads.

My husband did not completely cut off support, but it was reduced dramatically. His OW was behind it - she advised him based on her own exH's financial support obligations.

She told my husband he'd only owe a pittance. And thats about what he gave me. I mean really, if SHE only got X amount of dollars, why should he have to pay me more?

What she neglected to consider (or rather, she was considering!) that my husband made a heck of alot more than her exH, I had been a stay at home mom for 10 years, while she had been fully employed, and we had 3 kids, not 2.

The legal "guideline" in NJ, when our sitatuion was mapped against it, was a HECK of a lot more than she felt I was owed.

It was, in the end, yet another pressure for my husband to drop the affair and come home - he found out that fidelity to his wife and kids was alot cheaper than OW =)

Surviving, he'll either remember Friday the 13th as a truly unlucky day, or the luckiest day ever. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

My lawyer called me early Friday the 13th to get a physical description of WH for the process server. She said WH would probably be served Monday the 16th. I joked with her that it would be more appropriate for him to be served on the 13th. She said, "That would be cool! Let me call the process server and see if he can fit him in." Gotta love a lawyer with a sense of humor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi, BrambleRose, it's good to hear from you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think my MOW is helping choreograph WH's moves, her and WH's divorced, enabling buddies at work. BR, our situations do seem to have a lot of similarities. My MOW is not divorced, but apparently she has been involved with other married men, so maybe she has experience in 'advising' them on how to handle their wives (gag). She sounds like a real prize.

I'm hoping my WH will be jolted into reality, too. I just want to smack him upside the head and say, "What are you thinking?" How could he possibly think what he is doing will turn out to be good?

Edited to add: I still haven't heard from WH. It has only been one day since he was served, but he usually calls on Saturday to make plans to come over on Sunday. Hmmm...

Well Pebbles, if it will make you feel better...my situation ended up rather...interestingly.

About 9 months into recovery, a public defender showed up on our doorstep looking for my husband. He was looking for OW. Apparently she follows her own legal advice, in addition to giving it to married men, which had gotten her into quite a bit of trouble. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There was a warrant for her arrest - apparently she can't (at least last I heard which was ages ago) return to NJ.

These OW don't exactly have the best or wisest legal judgement. (Ya think?) Fantasy runs their lives, which is pretty funny when they try to fit the legal code to it.

So ... all the better for us BSes when we have to step up and defend our families.

BrambleRose, your FOW sounds like a real prize. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> She must have gone to the same OW law school my MOW took courses from. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

WH called this morning to ask if he could come over later. I told him we had guests (kids' friends spending the night), so it would have to be late afternoon. He didn't mention being served and I didn't bring it up. I guess he still plans to work in the yard (shrug).

I have a lot of errands I need to run today. I was planning on doing them this afternoon, since the kids have friends over most of the day. Maybe I'll ask WH to watch the kids and I'll go out? I don't know how the kids would feel about that, though. I don't want to make them uncomfortable.

I wonder if he'll mention being served/the summons when he is here. I know, be calm, pleasant, and explain, if he brings it up. Would it be weirder if he doesn't bring it up?

Edited to add: When I first answered the phone, there was a really long, almost painful pause before WH started to speak. That has never happened before.

WH was here for a whole two hours. How nice of him to fit his family into his tight schedule - but it was his idea to come over (I didn't invite him) and it wasn't 'his' weekend to have the kids. He worked in the yard. The kids and I played in the pool. This time our daughter was the one who talked to him and our son ignored him (usually it's the opposite).

He did not say a word about being served. I didn't bring it up either. I had to bite my tongue to keep from asking him about it. Maybe he just doesn't give a darn? After he left, I noticed he had left a check made out to me on the kitchen counter. He didn't mention that, either.

As he was working on things, our daughter would ask him to blow up pool toys and do other things. A few times he said he didn't have time today, but would do it next time. He even talked about playing in the pool with us 'next time.'

It was all very pleasant and friendly, a very Plan A visit. Is he conflict avoiding? Happy about being served? Just weird?

What in the world is going on with this guy??????

If I had a marriage builder coach, I'd be learning how to talk to my husband about the elephant in the living room.

I don't know how to help you start talking without lovebusting with him about it.

This whole thing has been weird - Plan A has its merits, but when he's behaving the way he is, there has to be a remedy that involves direct confrontation that this isn't ok without exploding lava-rage all over him. Of course, I couldn't do it.

So I'd recommend a marriage builder coach, or at least a reverse babble expert to coach you - because NOT talking about this elephant is not healthy.

Pebbles, maybe he feels too guilty to bring it up, which is good. He knows he is in the wrong. At the very least, I bet it was a huge wake up call. You did tell his parents that he cut off fs, didn't you? I think they should all know that about him, even though they don't know right from wrong.

Are ya working on your Plan B letter? Please do me a huge favor when you write it? Keep it to 4-5 concise paragraphs. I think long winded, emotional novels are sooooooo counterproductive. They are counterproductive because a) your audience is emotionally detached and is averse to sentimentalism from the BS and b) the "point" needs to be clear in order for a fogged out brain to comprehend it.

You know how when a convenience store has hundreds of manufacturer posters and you end up seeing nothing because of the visual pollution? Well, when you put up only 3-4 posters, the customers notice it. I think Plan B letters are the same way, less is better and more just clutters up the scene.

Which workout are ya doing today? I am contemplating a brisk cardio on my elliptical while I watch Desperate Housewives. Cathe's Muscle Max really did me in yesterday!

KaylaAndy, it is a very weird situation. Really, it's almost like WH is afraid of me sometimes, even though I haven't argued with him or yelled at him since a day or two after he left. Maybe he didn't want to risk starting an argument in front of the kids?

WHs are a strange and unusual species of...whatever they are. Good luck with yours!

MelodyLane, I haven't decided yet. Maybe IMAX 2? That one always wears me out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I need something draining today to get my mind off 'things.'

Yes, his parents and one brother and sister-in-law know about him cutting off financial support. I haven't spoken to any of them recently, so I have no idea if they have spoken to WH. My BIL did say that he planned to talk to WH about how stupid (his word) it was to cut off financial support.

I hope it was a wake-up call for WH. I would think anyone would be upset by a summons to appear in court. The check he furtively left for me today brings him up to about two-thirds of what he will be paying in support per month. Why leave it in secret, where I would find it after he left?

I am working on shortening it a little, trying to take out some parts where I repeat myself without taking out anything important.

I'm so confused. I need to go sweat and jump up and down to loud music now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Been thinking about you and read here often.

Have a suggestion for the next time he comes over and ignores conversation entirely about the "Big D"...

Sit down with him and say something like...

"WH, I have been working with a lawyer to draw up financial support and D papers. I have been told I can't ask for legal financial support unless I also sue for D. THe lawyer has told me you were served with the papers last week. The family cannot survive without more money and it worried me when you said you would give us no fiancial support. I want to assure you I do NOT want this D, but I have to file to assure financial support."

If there are any ifs, ands, or buts then just restate the last statement.

Use your own words, but keep it simple...a few statements. And repeat, repeat, repeat.

Or you could CA like him...

Hi, StillHere!

Maybe I should bring it up Wednesday, after I get back from my birthday dinner out with friends. He'll be at the house visiting the kids. If we both conflict avoid, he may not still believe that I don't want a divorce, until I send him the Plan B letter. It seems like he always waits for me to make decisions and bring up the tough issues. I have told him several times that I don't want a divorce, but not in the last month or so.

Or, should I just not bring it up until I send him the Plan B letter?

I am still surprised that he didn't mention anything about being served - not a word. And does he think leaving me surprise checks now and then will make up for sending my lawyer a letter stating he would not support us? Is he thinking at all???

An oddly sweet thing: My school saves Campbell's soup labels to earn money. The class that saves the most labels each week gets 10 minutes of extra recess (which the teachers enjoy just as much as the students). When WH came over today, he handed me a bundle of soup labels without saying anything. Whether he did it for our daughter or for me, he didn't say, but it was kind of sweet for him to remember and save them.

Also funny, he's been eating a lot of soup, LOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pebbles, I have to say I agree with StillHere. This needs to be discussed before you go into Plan B to ENSURE he understands fully you do not want the divorce. I would suggest printing out her post and using it for your talking points. Call him as soon as you can so you can get this out in the open and dealt with promptly. I would do it over the phone tomorrow or tonight when the kids are not around.

I am hoping that your mother will be there to greet him on your special night out. I truly think this is an excellent opportunity for him to wonder about your night out before you go to Plan B. See, many WS' hold out in their affairs because they have this crazy belief that the BS will sit around and wait on them forever.

When they realize that may not be the case, it can serve to shock them awake. I think it would be helpful for that thought to cross his mind just before you go into Plan B. I am not suggesting that you lie about your birthday night, but just that you inject some mystery into it by not mentioning what you are doing. See what I mean? And this is the opportune time!

MelodyLane, listening to WH talking to the kids today, I think he might be planning to stay here at the house with them, not take them to his apartment. If he takes them anywhere, it would probably be out to dinner and then home. I guess I could ask my mom to come over around the kids' bedtime to take over for WH, so he could leave. Poor Mom. She hasn't spoken to WH since he left. It would be very awkward (but I know she'll do it, if I ask her to).

I took your and StillHere's advice and tried to call WH. He didn't answer, so I left a message for him to call me back.

I called on the cell phone his MOW got for him months before he left us, the phone I'm supposed to be able to reach him on at any time, in case of an emergency, etc. The last few times I've tried to call him, he hasn't answered. Actually, I guess I've only tried to call three or four times, total, but still...what if there was an emergency? I did find out his secret land line number (the one he hasn't told me, his parents, etc.), but I haven't used it yet.

Long story longer...if he calls back tonight, I'll talk to him about my motivation for filing for divorce. If he doesn't call back, I'll try to call him again tomorrow. It's hard to find a time when neither of us is busy at work and/or I am not with the kids.

Ick, I think this is one of his evenings with MOW. He always has to leave by a certain time on Sundays because he has 'plans.' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'm trying to imagine the conversation with WH.

Me: I just wanted to make sure you understand why I had to file for divorce...

WH: (interrupting) I want a divorce.

Me: You've said that. I still do not want a divorce. The lawyer told me I can't ask for legal financial support unless I also sue for divorce.

WH: I just gave you a check.

Me: Yes. Thank you. It worried me when you said you would give us no financial support. We can't survive on my salary alone. My only option was to sue for divorce in order to assure legal financial support.

WH: (if he lets me finish the above) You're just doing this to punish me. It's not fair that I'm the one who has to give up everything...rant, fogese, blah, blah, blah....(no chance to get a word in edgewise).

Me: Well, I just wanted to let you know why I filed for divorce - only to assure legal financial support. See you Wednesday!

Yes, I talk to myself and rehearse conversations. What a dork. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for humoring me.

Edited to add: I could sure use some reverse babble advice, for this or other possible scenarios. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

you know.....mine always has to leave visitation by a certain time too....I know it's OW keeping tabs on his whearabouts....funny how he would never do that for me with his ex girlfriend...i was just paranoid...guess he learned his lesson to respect a womans wishes.....he even makes time to have lunch with her weekly...he would never do that for me....and he goes to church with her....he never supported me and would not go to church with me....only if he had to...like for my confirmation....funny the things they do with OW they would never do with us before....it makes you feel like you were so much less important.....especially when he chooses his life with her over your children......and you know what....makes me hate him even more for abandoning us....

Pebbles,

I think IF you had this convo with a WS, it would go as you described. In retrospect is it really worth the effort? What w/b gained by it?

IMHO, the best thing t/d w/b to NOT give the WS infor or any explanation of your actions. As you noted in your previous convo, he wasn't listening anyway.

Use this knowledge to your advantage and pick and choose when you give the WS info. Expecting a WS to understand your 'reasons' for the D or anything else is IMHO too high of an expectation. Wait for the WS to question it. This is hard for a BS t/d but it is the safer and more sane course to take.

Here's my take on your convo.

WS: I got served.

BS: Yes (or a simple nod).

WS: I want a D.

BS: U got it.

WS: No, I wanted to get the D.

BS: U got it.

WS: No you don't understand, I wanted to have you served.

BS: Ooohh....., ok then for dinner I want.

WS: Not dinner, I wanted to D you before you D'd me.

BS: What? I'm sorry you were habbling and I didn't hear what you said, could you please repeat that?

WS: Oh never mind.

BS: Ok.

See the difference? This convo (though foggy) did not require the BS to give info. Notice how the BS was able to make mincemeat of the WS' attempts at having an illogical convo w/the BS. In other words, the BS didn't take no BS from the WS. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pray for a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience. This is when you need all 3.

take care,
L.

Surviving, I know what you mean. Why would a man choose a skanky, serial cheating, married hag over a wife and two beautiful children who love him? The thing is, I don't hate him...yet. Most of the time I'm not even angry (much). Disgusted, hurt, betrayed, confused, used, utterly befuddled...that's how I feel. Maybe the anger comes later?

Orchid, thank you for your input.

The thing is, if my WH stays true to form he'll never question it. He has never brought up anything. The only thing about this whole mess he has brought up on his own is that he wanted to leave (said on D-day, the night he left). If I hadn't asked specifically, he wouldn't even have told me about the affair. If it were up to him, I'd still be waiting for him to make changes to a word here and a word there on the visitation/custody agreement. It took a threatening phone call from my lawyer to finally get him to sign it.

I really like your reverse babble sample, Orchid, it's the one I would like to use, but I don't think it will happen with my WH. He even left a check for me in a place where he knew I wouldn't find it until after he left. I'm not exactly sure why. He was always something of a conflict avoider, but now he seems to have become a Conflict Avoider. Does he think these problems and I will just go away? Did he think I would never find out anything? His excuse has been that he "doesn't want to hurt me any more." His actions would prove otherwise.

I do see your point about him not understanding my explanation anyway, in his WS state. I'm just worried that it will be a conflicting message, being served the D and support papers last week, then receiving my Plan B letter a few days later. What do you think?

Well, he finally called me back, almost 24 hours after I left him a voice mail. I couldn't talk, the kids were nearby. I asked if I could call him back after they go to bed. He asked, "Is this going to be a long conversation?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

In some ways WH seems like the typical WS, but in some ways he seems uniquely bizarre. What will get through to this guy???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I guess my question is this: Should I wait and see if he ever brings it up or should I explain so that I don't send a conflicting message with my Plan B letter? Or maybe I'll be banging my head against a wall either way?

Would it be possible to amend your plan B letter to add one line stating that you had to sue for divorce to ensure that his family would be protected financially. I haven't read your plan B letter yet. I'll have to look it up. And if he gets a little confused, is that a bad thing? I think it would make him think a little that you are not kidding around and will do whatever you need to do to protect your family. IMHO not a bad thing.

Just read your paln B letter you mention why you filed for divorce in it already. I'd leave it at that. If he needs further clarification he'll have to ask.

Thanks, confused. You even took the time to find my Plan B letter! I appreciate your advice.

My dilemma for tonight solved itself. I got a phone call right before the time I had said I would call WH. I asked myself, "Should I talk to someone fun who likes me or call a mean, grouchy old alien who speaks fogese?" Hmmm, tough choice. The phone call didn't end until later than I would have felt comfortable calling WH (he usually goes to bed fairly early). If he tried to call me, I wouldn't know, but he would have gotten a busy signal.

Was it a sign? Maybe. Maybe it was just a phone call.

I know that I need to detach myself from wondering about WH and what he is up to. There are actually days when I am too busy to think about him much, although he is always there at the back of my mind. We have lived in the same town for more than half my life, so there are memories of us everywhere I go. I used to know him so well, I thought. Now I just don't get him at all, it seems.

Pebbles. I think we try so hard to bond with our spouses and block out the bad things they did to us, we only remember the good. It's not healthy not to look at the bad and recognize it.

This is a kind of hijack but our paths are so parallel. My WW called me today. First time since she said she was taking DS8 back to Europe and served my restraining order. She got my response to the restraining order and divorce paperwork today. All she could say what I wanted was "interesting" and she thought we would just go with the plan we had before. Hmmmmm NO! I told her I couldn't really trust her anymore, and hung up the phone quietly. Was it the domestic violence assessment, or anger management classes she didn't like? Don't really know. I think I'm in Plan B. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I sit now wishing she could pull her head out of her butt, take responsibility for her actions. I've hit the point where I'm not sure I want her back. Just DS8. I worry about him.

You take care of your kids. Show them how to set proper boundaries. Show them how to stand up for themselves with honor and compassion. You can control how your WS acts. But you can control how you respond. Do you still have your ring on? I wonder why I do. WS asked if I wanted the engagement ring back. I told her no, it was a gift from me to you. Maybe she'll give it to my son one day.

You, Pebbles are doing remarkably. You did a great plan A with kids on the bed watching TV. He has a lot to think about. Now you'll see if he has the maturity to come back to you a broken man. Just over a week ago my wife cried and said she wanted to get the divorce so we could fall in love and She could ask to marry ME?! A few days later I had a restraining order. Our spouses are tormented. Let's not go along with them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Love Ya! (In a 40 year old kinda way)

SIS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
================================
What will get through to this guy????
================================

Your constancy will.

It is like a flashlight constantly in his eyes. It is in front of him wherever he goes. He wakes up to, he goes to sleep thinking about it. It haunts him.

He has seen the woman he married in Plan A. Even better, he has seen the woman he married, ready and willing to face a future, even where he has created disaster and added incredible complexity to existing problems.

Now he is going to see the same resolve in your Plan B.

You ARE GETTING THROUGH. He just hasn't admitted it - yet.

God bless,
Gimble

Decide when you will send your plan B letter then go dark. 'Til then, keep all interactions brief. He needs to have withdrawal from you and the family. Otherwise why give up the cake eating lifestyle?

You need to implement your boundaries and stick to them. This is hard for a BS t/d but necessary if it is going to work. There is no 1/2 plan A or B. It's all or nothing. Anything 1/2 way w/b viewed as weak and easily manipulated.

L.

You're doing good, Pebs.

Plan B will set you free if you jump in with both feet. Resolve to be dark, dark, dark. Yes, it's hard when young kids are involved, but the contact necessary as a result of having kids involved presents an opportunity to remind him that you're still the Plan A person you were before Plan B - all such contact should be done in a Plan A-type manner. Pleasant and without LBs - just very short and no more than is necessary to accomplish whatever need required the contact. Understand?

WAT

Sleepless, I am guilty of blocking out the bad things. When I look back, I remember mostly good times. Very rarely do I remember something unpleasant or difficult. Either my life has been a fairly happy one...or I'm seeing the past through rose-colored glasses.

You are welcome to hijack my thread any time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Do you ever get the feeling your WW is purposely burning her bridges behind her? I get that feeling about my WH. It's almost as if he wants to damage his relationship with me so badly that I'll have no choice but to give up on him.

Yes, I think your WW has lost the option of going with the original plan. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I think our WSs are suffering from a particularly bad case of 'craniorectosis' (head up butt disease). I made up that word. You like? I hope she comes to her senses about your son soon, or that some kind of legal action can be taken quickly to get him back. She definitely doesn't sound like she should be taking care of a child right now, with her head stuck up her butt and all.

Yes, I still wear my ring. I've seen him notice that I have it on, although he has never commented on it. I am keeping it on as a testament to my committment to 'for better or worse,' emphasis on 'worse' right now. Besides, it's pretty and sparkly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

No way. If they want to wallow in their craniorectosis, they'll have to do it on their own - or, in my WS's case, with a haggy skankylosaur. I prefer to be out in the light where the air is fresher!

I'll have you know I won't be 40 for 2-1/2 more hours! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thank you so much, Gimble, Orchid, and WAT, for all of your kind and helpful advice and encouragement. I will remember your advice and implement it in my Plan B.

Dark, dark, dark as possible. Plan A behavior and brevity when contact is unavoidable. I look forward to the peace.

Thanks again. I don't know what I'd be doing right now without all of you.

I've always wanted to haunt somebody, Gimble. It sounds so powerful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

On that note, I noticed that I had three missed calls on my cell phone this evening, all from WH. He didn't leave a voicemail. I don't know if he tried to call the house phone, someone didn't hang it up all the way after the last use, so it has been off the hook for who knows how long.

It's that darn craniorectosis again.

Thanks, Gimble. You are always so encouraging. You give me hope. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I decided I've spent so much time and energy, and so many tears on WH lately that for my birthday I'd take the day off and it would be all about me!

Starting this evening and through tomorrow night, I am doing as I please - and purposely doing things that would get on WH's nerves, were he here.

This evening:
I ate popcorn for dinner! Don't worry, the kids had real food. I loaded the dishwasher in a random order, no pattern, with the dishes facing all different directions! I am going to sleep in the very middle of the bed! Weenster will sleep in what will be left of WH's spot, hee, hee, on his pillow! I went shopping with a gift card and bought a pair of cute, very frivilous sandals - that I don't need! I parked within inches of the side of the garage!

It felt good, and kind of naughty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Tomorrow:
At school I will celebrate in my traditional way. I will bring my students treats and I will give them extra recess. We will play a lot of games, with prizes for everyone (learning games, but they're still fun). We will do Mad Libs, and I will let them use the word 'toilet' as a noun choice (they'll be so happy). I've found that everyone looks forward to your birthday, if you give them treats. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I will wear the tiara! Yes, that's right, the tiara. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Another teacher keeps a plastic and foil tiara in her classroom, saved from a school function from years past. It will look great with my new sandals.

My secret birthday pal will surprise me with something, probably food-related!

I will give each of my own kids a small present.

I will go out to dinner with friends while WH stays at the house with the kids (hee, hee). My new sandals will look great with this, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

If you read this far, thank you for humoring me. It is my birthday, you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

YAY! Happy Birthday pebbles *big glomping hugs*

here....*hands her a large man sized box*....now rememebr handle with care... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />....chipendales are so hard to come by these days *hides dart gun* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Surviving! It's just what I wanted! After he's done dancing for me, he can massage my feet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

WHY stop there......make him clean the whole house!....he's your slave for the day... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />......*gives her the controling whip*

OH CRAP! SIHW! You missed MY b-day! I really need someone to weed the yard!

HBD Pebs! Saw you and Weenster on the photo page. I also have a weiner dawg....I also think you should brush Weens teeth with wh's toothbrush...that'd be a depends moment (aka: wet your pants funny), eh? LOL!

And your plan B sounds most excellent! Keep it up. Remember you can't change him...only your reactions to him!

- Kimmy

Hi, Birthday Girl

Quote:
========================
On that note, I noticed that I had three missed calls on my cell phone this evening, all from WH. He didn't leave a voicemail. I don't know if he tried to call the house phone, someone didn't hang it up all the way after the last use, so it has been off the hook for who knows how long.
========================

I wonder just what Plan B will do to him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So, a great big HAPPY BIRTHDAY to you!

Oh, and try backing the car into the garage, it makes for a more interesting challenge, and if you succeed, it's much easier to get out the next morning. If you don't succeed, then make sure you hire hunky carpenters.

God bless,
Gimble

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> If she does can i come watch <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Happy B-Day, Pebs!

Your birthday plans made me smile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Need another weenie dog? I half-heartedly tried to get Ethan (aka furnitureman) to adopt mine - I inherited sole custody of her via the divorce:

Me: So when you leave, you're also going to share the dog responsibilities, right? After all, the dog was your idea to begin with.

Her: NO! You made the decision NOT to leave the house so you have to keep the dog since the dog lives in the house.

Me: Oh. OK. Using that logic I also have to keep all the furniture and other belongings and I get full custody of {son} since he lives in the house, too, right?

Her : NO!!!! That's DIFFERENT!!!

WAT

Pebbles, I like your style! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Happiest of bdays my dear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Happy Birthday, Pebbles!

Happy happy Birthday Pebbles! Every girl should wear a tiara on her birthday! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just a quick note, my husband said he wanted a divorce. His OW even dragged him to an attorney. But filing for divorce is hard work and involves lots of conflict =)

I filed for divorce at Steve Harley's suggestion. Steve also told me to do Plan B (which in hind sight I should have but I didnt). I didn't do Plan B, so my husband continued to visit the kids, and do family things and I stayed in sort of a Plan A (it was more Plan Me, trying to transition into a new life).

Not a word did he mention about the divorce. When he was served, he was served by a sheriff at work.

If we talked about the divorce, it was if I brought it up. And when we talked about it, it was about my future plans post-divorce.

He was given 30 days to respond to the papers I had served. He ignored it. A notice came to both of us that I was getting a default divorce unless he appeared in court.

Our court date approached, and the night before, he showed up on my door step promising to do everything Steve Harley had told him to do if I would postpone the divorce for 30 days.

I did that, and he came through on his word.

The cynical part of me thinks that in the end, he decided that recovering with me was the path of least resistance. Which is probably true. Regardless, it was what was best for my family at the time.

I would be willing to bet that your papers made the divorce incredibly real.

Fantasy isnt so fun when reality sticks its head in =)

You are doing great, Pebbles, hang in there!

I'm posting here because I'm hiding from my wife <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think your life has been happy because you don't dwell on the bad things and look for the good in everything and everyone.



I feel like that quite a bit. Her comments that we HAVE to get a divorce so we can try to have a better relationship afterward. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I wonder if they feel so guilty that they can't bear to acknowledge what they did. If we think about an addict, I can see where they want to hide from their family because they're so ashamed. WW asked my SIL (her sister) why I'm doing what I'm doing if I loved her. I hope one day she'll come to her senses to figure it out... but she's got some growing to do. I think we need to continue to be the lighthouse. You obviously are.


'craniorectosis' Head up butt disease.

Let's contact Webster's!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Love it. Are you an English teacher??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



AMEN Sister!!

Happy 40th!! You caught me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> How was the crab?