Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
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I can just picture them all hanging out together laughing at me.
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This may not help you feel better, but if I caught my employees doing something like this, they would find themselves on a serious hot seat, and I would contact the vendor regarding the inappropriate behavior of the sales person. She would not be welcome again at my business.

Not all businesses are owned or managed by losers or morally bankrupt people. Have you considered exposure at work? I am not telling you to do it, but let's discuss it. What are the caveats? Is the owner or manager involved in their little affair klatch?

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble, I have read many threads here about exposure at work, but I have never seriously considered it myself...before now. I actually have no idea who is in on the sordid little secret at WH's or MOW's places of employment. I have only WH's word to go by, and his word is worth its weight in...doo doo. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> I do know that WH's employer likes to have a reputation of integrity. I wouldn't want WH to get in too much trouble at work, though. I want him to keep drawing a salary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I found out where MOW works, too. When I first mentioned to WH that I knew MOW's name, he asked me if I was going to "ruin her career" (she works in an auto parts store!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). Why would he be afraid of what I might do, if there was nothing to be afraid of?? Hmmm...

I had the guts to expose to WH's parents and OWH, but I have to admit I'm terrified of exposing to WH's or MOW's employers. Do you think it might help? How would I do it? Would I just walk in to her store and let it rip? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> What would I say? Gimble, it appears I need to be smacked upside the head with a friendly 2x4. Geez, I'm such a wimp.

Hi, Pebbles.

This is just a quick reply, I have to go sleep for a few hours :-)

In the mean time....

If I were her boss and I knew she was spending my time and money 'hanging with the boys' especially one she was sleeping with, I think that she would quickly find herself in a new position, or fired.

If I were his boss, and my company's reputation were at stake, it would also not be good. Every company has it's own rules. Regardless, the vendor would be on 'probation' so to speak. Vendors also don't like to lose accounts.

There is a lot to work with here.

The managers or owners of both businesses would be the prime targets.

I can see one of them not reacting, but not both. Even if only one reacts, it affects both businesses.

Looks like a winner to me.

Melody, WAT, opinions?

Gimble

Pebbles
Exposure, more than anything but prayer, saved my marriage.

Affairees HATE exposure because it exposes the bindings of their affair to the light of scrutiny. And in the overwhelming majority of cases those bindings are just not strong enough to persist.

In my own case my Squid had found " her soul mate" and OM would wait "1 year or ten years for her", when in truth their affair lasted exactly two phone calls after I faxed proof to OMs partner.

OM was going to drive up to see me and beat me up ( what a PITY he never did - I mean that) and Squid was writhing and spitting like a stabbed snake absolutely HATEFUL to me , the kids, her siser, everyone who had no sympathy for her.

I came to think of affairs as being like 8 year olds playing 'doctor s and nurses' in the dark. when Mom comes in and switches on the light you better be REAL dedicated to the game to carry on with Mom looking !

Exposure is the hardest thing to do, because it makes BS feel as though they are driving their WS into the arms of the affair. I know this feeling well.

Squid actually begged me "dont tell his partner, just because our lives are crap theres no reason to make his crap too". Oh yes there is, my dear...oh yes there is. Apart from the HUGE satisfaction I derived from knowing OM was avoiding crockery for a day or two and that the full consequnces of his actions were now tumbling upon him, the whip passed to MY hand.

Draw up a map, Pebbles, of the people you COULD expose to who would have the most of a stake in their affair. And expose first to the people whom the affairees would NOT want to know first.

I would advise against exposing to non-Christian girlfriends or mates because typically the girls just treat it as 'cosmo' gossip, and the men think its man's ways.

Spouses & beloved parents of both infidels is the way to go IMO.

And don;t fear losing bam bam, pebbles. You already lost him. You are getting him BACK through this.

all blessings

{{{{pebbles}}}}

Thanks, bOb and Gimble! I'm so pitiful. I should be sleeping right now. I have to get up to get ready for work in about 4 hours, and I'm suffering from laryngitis - not good for a teacher. I am just too wound up to sleep now.

I did expose to WH's parents, but they are being their own version of "supportive." To them that means crying to me and their other children that they are upset with WH, but being non-judgmental when they speak to him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I also exposed to MOW's husband, but he didn't seem to be surprised or upset. I think they may have an "arrangement" of some sort <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> (although WH did find out I called OWH without me telling him, hee hee).

I would like to expose to MOW's work. How is this best done? Should I go in in person and ask for the manager? Yikes, it seems so Desperate Housewives. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> But I'll do it, if necessary. It's not like I have all that much left to lose. It would kind of destroy WH's image of me as the cooperative, gullible, good girl, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Like you said, bOb, I've already lost WH. Maybe this would help break up the A, maybe no one would care. I'll never know unless I try.

I have also considered exposing to MOW's parents, with whom she lives off and on (according to WH). MOW is 46 years old, so I'm not sure how much influence her parents would have on her behavior. Thoughts??

I could use some advice on the actual mechanics of what to do, please. I'm pretty brain dead these days, especially with the lack of sleep, so even a skeleton script of some sort would be nice (pitiful, I know). Thanks for humoring me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You are not pitiful. Being an active BS is the hardest gig I know of. People reading my history remember the good stuff I did but not the chicken stuff. YES I exposed bravely, but retched in the bushes afterwards.

YES I behaved with loving distance from Squid and her in order to planA effectively, but regularly drove to a secluded spot and cried my eyes out where no-one could see.

Bravery isn't "not being scared" - its doing the right thing DESPITE being scared.

When your WH attacks you for exposing, remember to look him in the eye and calmly say " I told you I would do all in my power to resor our marrige. I do not like to see you this upset, but I did what I beleived was best for our marriage. It is not out of spite, it is out of love and a desire to get you to recognise the wrongness of your affair, end it and work on our marriage".

When I said that to Squid she replied " well you're not doing a very f'king good job of it are you ?????!!!".

That same spiteful, hard headed girl just kissed me a longing goodbye as she left to drive our DD11 to her friends house and to get our groceries.

You can do this pebbles. Nothing pitiful about fighting for your marriage.

Regarding a skeleton script for work exposure, remember I didn't expose to work - I exposed to 2 close friends, squids beloved elder sister and OMs 14 year GF.

I'll leave advice to someone who has exposed to a workplace.

{{{pebbles}}}

Hi Pebs - regarding workplace exposure, I advise you get the legal stuff, i.e., support, etc., settled before undertaking this. Duh! Right?

Once the legal stuff is settled I suggest you choreograph any additional exposure with Plan B. Send a copy of your Plan B letter to the employers, OW's H, OW, and H's parents. This way all see the same thing PLUS your sincere desires to rebuild the marriage.

Posted by bOb:

Bob, Bob, Bob. C'mon. This may be the most narrow minded, ridiculous thing I've ever seen you post here. This is not characteristic of you. You're smarter than this. Think about it: How many self-proclaimed "Christians" to we read about here actually conducting affairs? I'm not a Christian, but I'm the biggest proponent of exposure on this forum!

I'll accept your sincere apology.

I agree with WAT that you need to get your financial arrangements done NOW. Do it NOW and get it done before you expose to his boss and hers. And I very much think this would be a very good exposure. I would suggest sending them a letter - certified to only them - and tell them about the affair.

I wouldn't suggest going into Plan B until you have dealt with the exposure. THEN, go into Plan B. I think a little more time showing him that you can meet his needs is warranted though. When you go into Plan B, you want it to be when the last thing on his mind is your excellent Plan A. Hopefully, the exposure will cause so much conflict in his stinky little affair that you will look very attractive.

So, here are your priorities as I see them:

1. Get financial arrangement in order

2. Expose them at work

3. More Emotional Needs work

4. Plan B

Christians are expected to follow certain patterns when their friends are doing bad things in order to help their friend stop. Unfortunately, they don't always choose to follow this pattern. We also see good non-Christian folks like WAT who would do the right thing and bust a friend for such behavior. I do understand what Bob means, though, it is the standard that we should expect and like WAT alluded, it doesn't always happen and is not exclusive to Christians by any means.

WAT I only ever advise out of my own experience. I would be scared to advise further.

Squid's girlfriend I exposed to, who did not subscribe to a set of beliefs that support marriage used the information to fuel 'cosmopolitan' type gossipy discussions and 'you go girl, follow your heart' type Oprah horsesh*t advice.

The Christian friends I exposed to reminded Squid of her commitment and the scriptural ramifications of that, and did not gossip.

Perhaps a more worldly and PC way of describing good targets for exposure would have been " People who recognise the value and sanctity of marriage and who would by cultural affinity sponsor the upholding of the institution though crises" but I am not PC and I am a Christian. And the christianfaith, for all the flaws of many of its adherents DOES culturally support marriage.

Were I more learned perhaps I would include Sikh, Muslim and anarcho-syndiclist communists in that list but I am not.

I make no apology for advising out of my own experience.

If you have a personal way of determining a constituency of potentially effective exposees without actually interviewing them first, please post it instead of criticising well intentioned and proven examples.

God bless <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi again, bOb - I am saddened by your over generalization. If I applied my personal experience as the sole source of my knowledge, I would conclude that Catholics are unabashed adulterers. (OM in my case is a "devout" Catholic and my WS "became" Catholic as a result of her non-affair.) But I don't make such a silly conclusion. Based on my observations over my life time, one's religious following, or lack thereof, has little to do with influencing their integrity or human qualities. This is confirmed over and over again on this forum.


I don't know of a way. This includes determining their claimed faiths. Interviews may not do it, either. What people say they will do vs what they actually do when in such a situation can be very different. Thus one point we can agree on, it seems, is that the reactions of folks exposed to cannot be predicted. This is why exposure has to be undertaken with a realization that it may succeed marvelously - as in your case - or be totally ineffective due to lack or interest, morals, or whatever other human virtue is missing in the recipients.

But let's not get further side tracked by focusing on the effects of exposure on anybody else other than the infidels: it's what THEY think or worry of the exposure that's important. NOT what other people actually think. Sure, it helps if everybody shuns them and it hurts if some embrace them. But infidels can't predict what others will think any better than we can - as we have already agreed. It's the threat of being rejected - by those of us left in the world with the gumption to judge.

I suggest we drop this squabble.

WAT

Hi, Pebbles.

Quoting MelodyLane:
========================================
So, here are your priorities as I see them:

1. Get financial arrangement in order

2. Expose them at work

3. More Emotional Needs work

4. Plan B
========================================

WAT and MelodyLane and Bob all gave excellent advice. And you almost got to see a fist fight!! I AM just teasing :-)

Do call your lawyer about the separation agreement and push a bit. He is going to get mad, but that is to be expected.

Bob is very right about doing what you have to do because it is the right thing to do, not because you are brave. Every one gets scared, even hard cases like me.

Back to the Damsel in distress, as long as you are sincere in your affirmances of your husbands learned capabilities to diagnose and repair just about anything, then lay it on. If he can explain the inner structure of a faucet head to you while standing in the shower, then unless you are a hydraulic engineer, there is a lot to be gleaned, even if it is just for his sake.

Just paying attention and doing your best to be interested when he speaks of such things is admiration in ACTION to him. Speak it too. Do both.

Hubby has some obvious openings in his emotional needs. It would be a great shame to let John's wife fill them.

In my opinion, his talking about the money she makes versus your education was indeed an attempt in his own mind to put her on equal footing with you. That very likely means that she is simply not your intellectual equal. What you can get from this, is to let him know that you can and are willing to learn from him.

MelodyLane and you are close on his feeling of inferiority, but, it likely runs a bit different than you might think. I don't that he considers himself less intellectual than you, but he is incredibly frustrated that you refuse to recognize his accomplishments and knowledge.

My guess is that frustration is directly implicated in his resentment toward you, and partly why he chose John's wife to hang with. She probably only basically meets his need for admiration by default, since he does NOT see her as his equal.

All the best,
Gimble

Sounds like what MOW is giving him is the KISA feeling.

So how do you make him feel this for you?

This is easy (or was easy until he put on that armor that MOW likes so well). You become VERY honest about your humbleness.

You say things like this:

"I'm sorry I haven't appreciated you over the years for all the things you have done for the family. You are a great provider and a great man."

"I am scared about the future. I am worried about what life will be like alone."

You can bring him into your world by being honest about some of the turmoil that goes on your life...with work, with the kids. Tell him of your frustration, ask his advice.

I would be willing to bet you, like me, are so independent and such a rock...you just deal with things. You end up looking so perfect, when you are an angst-ridden mess sometimes...let him know that, that you are not perfect. Let him know when you are scared or angry. It knocks you off the pedestal he seems to think you are on...

MelodyLane, Gimble, bOb pure, WAT, and StillHereMakingIt, thank you so much for your input! It never ceases to amaze me that people who don't even know me would be so genuinely caring and helpful. And getting advice from all of you who have been there, done that is so valuable.


So it sounds like the general consensus is to proceed as above, which sounds practical to me. I heard from my lawyer's office that WH faxed back the agreement this afternoon. The assistant said there don't appear to be any new changes that would surprise me. Of course, I haven't seen it yet. If all is well with this version of the custody/visitation agreement, I guess the next step will be to have him served with the divorce papers so financial support can be court ordered. Serving him with the papers just seems so "real" and "final." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I will have to see if I can include some kind of correspondence with the papers that says that I still do not want the divorce, I am only protecting the children, as was recommended to me before.

If I wait until financial support is ordered, exposure of the A to their workplaces is still a few weeks off. I'll work on filling WH's ENs during that time.

It's funny (in a strange, heart-breaking kind of way), I've always thought of him as my knight in shining armor. I think I got lazy in letting him know that. I hope it's not too late. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

He really is and always has been great at fixing things. He has also always had a very strong work ethic, which I've always admired. It's a challenge to let him know I appreciate and admire him, when I only see him occasionally - definitely something to work on.

StillHere! I got to say some of these things to him just a moment ago!!!

I just got off the phone with WH. He returned my call about some questions I had about how to take care of the new filter and swimming pool chemicals, which he then offered to come by and take care of himself. I asked him if he wanted to play pool with me and the kids Thursday. We arranged a time. I am suffering from laryngitis right now, so I have a very hoarse, creaky voice. He asked me about my voice. I explained about being sick, adding that I was feeling a bit overwhelmed with all the things to be done (work, kids, house, etc.). I told him I was sorry that I hadn't appreciated all of the things he'd always done for our family. He didn't respond. I then asked him if he wanted to say hello to the kids - he did (DD wouldn't talk to him, though). On the way to give the phone to the kids, I joked that it was difficult to yell at my class today. He laughed and said, "I bet."

It wasn't the alien on the phone. It sounded like my H. His voice sounded very gentle. Maybe having a pitiful, creaky voice made him feel sorry for me. Maybe it just made him glad he wasn't here to have to take care of me. I'm probably analyzing too much - another of my many faults. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> It was probably just a phone call.

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
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I guess the next step will be to have him served with the divorce papers so financial support can be court ordered. Serving him with the papers just seems so "real" and "final."
================================

After the papers are served and signed, he will have something to say about it. Tell him the truth.

Hubby says: "I can't believe that the paperwork is finally done. This is really for the best."

Wife responds: "Hubby, I would never have filed if you had met your financial obligation to the children. I feel blackmailed. Regardless of that, I have no intention of divorcing you, and I will continue to fight for our marriage."

Once that is settled, it is time to get aggressive with the exposure. He still has to pay even if he doesn't have a job. He will be angry.

Look at it this way. There is no reason he should get to continue in his fantasy at your expense. If the affair is so wonderful, why are they not shouting about it from the roof tops. "HEY EVERYONE, LOOK AT US! I have dumped my wife and kids so that John's wife and I can play puppy love together. Isn't love grand !!!. All the guys at work think I am sooo coool !!"

What they are really doing is hiding it from everyone due to shame, but they cover the shame in another lie; "Secrets are just so much fun. I just love secrets, don't you? If all those people just walking around lost in their dull little lives understood this 'real thing' that we have together, they just couldn't imagine it. It would just be too much for them. Our love is just so special"

There is romance, and there is gag reflex. The above triggered the latter for me :-)

I am sorry that you are going through this.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble, you ROCK! I'm so glad to have you on my side. I don't know if it's the chardonnay I had or the lack of sleep, or both, but the gag reflex comment cracked me up.

I will definitely reply honestly about why I filed for divorce, when the time comes. I do feel blackmailed by WH taking away financial support.

Do you think any of my attempt at Plan A is actually breaking through the alien mind warp? I should go to sleep now, before I start thinking again (God help us). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Gimble.

Of course it is. He can't help but notice.

Many wayward spouses would just love it if the betrayed spouse would 'just understand' how important this thing they are doing is....

You are facing your pain and tribulation, face forward, in an upright and forthright manner. THAT is the right thing to do. It is what strong, brave people do. You keep your panic under control, and don't let the idea of what he is doing, rule you.

In real life, it is so much less that what you imagine. If you were not directly involved, and had to watch what they were doing, you would either be bored to tears, or you would be cracked up, bent over double, wondering how you are going to be able to catch your breath from the sheer hilarity of the proceedings.

I think that you are doing very well in a very tough situation. Try to get plenty of rest. It does matter.

All the best,
Gimble

Good job Pebbles. You're in better shape than me. My wife filed last week, so I had to retract my agreement to it. I had a great plan A last week and had hope, but she went South on me when she flew home. Became adversarial. Was planning to secretly hook up with other man this weekend. So, I cancelled my divorce agreement and secretly cancelled his plane ticket. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

She's alone in Paris now. She's blaming our failing relationship on me. You'll like this.


PLEAAASE. The only thing missing was stomping feet. I figure if I drive her crazy enough, she'll snap and come back to Kansas with Aunty Em!

Follow the path grasshopper. You can only control your actions. Be good girl! Post your picture too!

Gimble's been riding me for a week. I finally got an Atta Boy out of him today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Gimble and Sleepless.:)


I don't know about that. It sounds like you're taking control of your situation. I like the part where you cancelled OM's plane ticket. That should be good for a few fireworks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is one of those days where I'm feeling more depressed. It doesn't help that I can barely speak, my head hurts, and my throat is killing me. I just want to go home and pull the covers up over my head - but I have too much to do. And I can't even go to the doctor (for antidepressants or antibiotics) because my health insurance got cancelled!

This is one of those days when I wonder if anything I'm trying to do in my Plan A is having any effect at all. Am I just banging my head against the wall? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Time to end the pity party and go back to work.