*slumps* pebs you have mail.

Hi, Pebbles.

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You're saying that if I try to soothe him and make it all better, I am actually enabling his behavior, right?
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Yep. You can't fix what is broken with him. He may be all around good at fixing things, but he hasn't even recognized that he is broken yet. He is getting closer, so he is getting nastier. He has to realize that his pain is self inflicted, and that the almost dead thing he has been dragging around and getting irritated with, is himself. Some people don't have to hit bottom before they realize that being a carp isn't all it's cracked up to be. Your hubby is stubborn. He may have to feed off the bottom a while before he gets the picture. He may very well get awfully mean while he is down there.

I know that it is hard to see someone that you love, sink. You just can't help them. A drowning person will take you down with them. They will climb all over you trying to get a breath of air in a blind panic. If the rescuer isn't ready and willing to do whatever it takes to keep the victim at arms length, then the rescuer may very well become the victim.

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Gimble, are you thinking that his 'hitting bottom,' if it ever happens, will involve some sort of explosion of his pent up rage?
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Yes. Desperate people will do desperate things. Never underestimate another persons capability to do the unexpected. Even if he never explodes, he certainly is capable of the behavior, especially when pressed.

I hope that nothing like that ever happens, but I would be doing you a disservice not to warn you of the potentiality.

I think you are doing a great job, Pebbles. Like you said, get DARK and let the plan do its thing on hubby, and you.

God bless,
Gimble

{{{Pebbles}}}

What can I say? You're absolutely right.

It's unbelievable that people can change so much in such a short period of time.

Cat

Dear Pebbles ~

Rock bottom is when "the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of change".

Some people have a very high tolerance for pain. You'll know he's hit rock bottom when he decides to change what he is doing.

I'm going to throw something else in here for you to remember. Like doodoo, no matter how hard you try Contact with WS...happens. Don't beat yourself up about it...OK, he got his fix...oh well...use this limited contact tot he best of your ability.

I have read on here again and again where the Harley's have recommended a letter, email, or phone call in Plan B just to remind the WS that the BS is still there and still have hope for the M. Take the opportunity the next time contact happens to have a script ready...write it out and tape it to your cell phone, pull it off and read it, or tape it to the back of your door, pullit off and hand it to him....something like.

"I still love you yet felt I had to start the D proceedings to square away the financial support so the kids and I wouldn't lose the house and food... I still want our M to work and know that every time I talk to you or see you while you are still involved in your A I lose love for you. Next time, please call xxx."

There is a very good possibility he may be getting lost in the game...where he's not so much thinking of a life with OW as he is thinking he has to one-up you.

Pebbles

You've had some excellent advice here,and all I want to do is to reinforce Gimble's warning about your H.

It seems to me that your H has got himself into a cycle that he is not going to be able to break out of easily, even if he wanted to. And right now, he doesn't even want to. So don't expect him to snap back to normal. If your H ever turns the corner, it will be a long, long journey back for him. Please set your expectations to 'low'.

This is what I've learned from the story of my H's two decades of covert betrayal - that some people get themselves into a deeply unhealthy pattern of behaviour stemming from two things - 1) they make a selfish decision, and 2) in feeling bad about the selfish choice, they choose to project the bad feeling onto someone else, rather than look closely at themselves. This rapidly goes into a spiral. Each poor / selfish choice gives them a brief buzz and a lingering guilt; they push the blame outwards, usually onto a spouse, and thus justify making another, even worse decision.

The important part of this pattern is that the spouse is there to be blamed.

As you distance and insulate yourself from your H, that blame-target is no longer available to him. Now that the whole mess has been exposed to the eyes of the official adult world, he looks like an idiot, which deep down he senses he is. And he also senses that no-one would consider you to be to blame for his behaviour. So there is nowhere for his anger to go except onto himself. Rather than do that, he will fight to keep you up there as the needed hate figure. He NEEDS to keep you engaged.

Please don't underestimate what a frightened man can do. I have been the target of the terrified rage of a man who 'wouldn't hurt a fly'. The utter fear of having to face themselves can cause intense reactions. He's fighting for his life, think of it that way.

His attachment to OW also requires you to be available, as the common enemy against whom they can both fight. Without you, they have to make a proper relationship. They know they can't do that, so keeping you around is imperative.

I also know how difficult it is to dismiss the feelings of someone whose feelings you've always taken seriously. It feels all wrong. Selfish. Hard. And he will accuse you of every possible selfishness and grotesquery, if you don't 'let him in'. PLease remember too that all of this is going on at a deeply subconscious level for your H; he is probably terrified of how out-of-control he feels right now, and all of that fear is being projected onto you. You are evil incarnate at this moment. You have plotted and conspired to ruin his life, to make him miserable. It is all your fault.

Remember this, and harden your heart. For your own sake. your children's, and ultimately your H's.

Pebbles, you can't save him. The best way to help him, as Gimble so wisely said, is to take away his escape route, the dump where he channels all his guilt and bad feeling. You. Remove yourself from his zone of operations, and you take away his crutches.

And come to terms with the fact that he might stay where he is - crippled, ugly, making endless bad decisions. It's HIS choice, not yours.

{{{Pebbles}}}

TogetherAlone

I think I told you the same thing Pebbles. The reason is that I'm living the same thing as you, but I'm a little ahead of you. My WW is a wreck. She's trying to hurt me. I don't like that. You should not like that either. Don't be deceived by the face you once knew, be aware his body has been possessed by someone who is not looking out for you, and you CANNOT help. Sometimes you really have to remind yourself.

I've been out of computer contact since last Friday, but I tried to catch up last night before I fell asleep.

He needs to hit rock bottom, and he MAY strike out when he does. My WW did. Hide the sharp objects and lock the doors. I'll tell more later, but WW actually called on my cel phone looking for DS8. She sounded off balance. She even apologized for not sending some of his necessities, like his toothbrush and baseball glove! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

DUH!!

Stay out of his way, and let him reap what he has sewn. It's going to be some smelly fruit or rotten grain! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Surviving, I got your email and emailed you back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Gimble.

That's what I'm afraid of. I am also afraid he will get stuck down there in the muck and not be able to extract himself.

I called the lawyer's office about the foot in the door and him coming by without my knowledge or permission. The lawyer herself called me back. She said that both of those actions are in violation of the court order (custody/visitation). She said that next time (she also thought there would be a next time) I should immediately call 911 and have a copy of the order handy. The lawyer would then have us go to court for a restraining order (sigh, sounds expensive). She said what had happened was very serious.

Of course, WH probably doesn't think he has done anything wrong. He doesn't even have a copy of the court order to refer to (didn't want one). Is he relying on me to let him know the visitation schedule for holidays and such? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Of course, if I do call 911 while he is here, he will probably leave before the police arrive - but at least he would be gone.

Thank you, Gimble. It just seems like everything I do or do not do, no matter how small, makes him more angry. I am sure he probably thought of some evil intention behind the escrow overage check I gave him.

If he doesn't have me around to 'ruin his life,' who will he blame all for all of his problems? Yes, time to be dark again.

Hi, Cat.

It's mind boggling, isn't it? What worries me the most is, was this part of his character hidden down inside all along and I just didn't see it for over 20 years? I would have sworn to the death that he was whole-heartedly devoted to his children and to me.

Hi, BrambleRose.

WH apparently secretly buried his resentment for a very long time, so I would imagine he has a high tolerance for pain. He may be sucking scum off the bottom for quite a while, if there is even enough of the 'good H' left inside him to drag him back up.

Hi, StillHereMakingIt.

I guess 'tough love' in this situation could be reminding him of the intent and terms of my Plan B letter - while having 911 ready to go on my cell phone.

Thank you for the script suggestion.

I can see this happening, too. He can't let me 'win.' I hope by going as dark as possible, I can remove myself from the stupid game. I sometimes wonder, what is it exactly that he wants? What does he need to take from me or attain for himself in order to 'win?'

Hi, TogetherAlone.

Thank you for your very insightful post. It made a lot of sense.

So, if I disengage (go dark) I will remove myself as the blame target, which will probably make WH fight even harder to keep me engaged, to protect himself from his anger. At some point, if I stay removed enough, he might (might not) realize that he is angry with himself.

The lawyer warned me of this, too, during our phone conversation today.

Apparently, MOW has been through this type of situation before (more than once). She must enjoy the drama? Me being dark may not be healthy for their relationship, hmmm.

What on earth did I do or not do to this man to deserve this? I don't understand how he can feel such animosity toward me. We did not have a bad life. It was not perfect, but it was quite good.

Such a waste, though! He was a good man. Why would he do this to his family and to himself? I know there is really no explanation, but it is just so unfair. I am trying to come to grips with the possibility that he may be beyond saving. And I do realize that I personally cannot save him. I need to get out of the way and see if he can drag himself back up.

I wonder what his family is thinking of all of this now. His brother saw his behavior in court and heard some of his lies and threats exposed. Of course, the family doesn't hear about the day-to-day things (foot in the door, stupid legal threats). They probably only hear how mean, vindictive Pebbles won't let him in his house and wants to take all his money. If WH is still planning a life with MOW (which I think he still is), how on earth could that possibly work out well (especially if I am out of the picture)?

Hi, Sleepless.

Good to 'see' you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I believe you did tell me that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It is hard to get used to the fact that there really is nothing I can do to save him. All of this is so out of character for him! I do have to keep reminding myself that he is gone. In some ways, it is as if he died - but died and is still trying to get back at me from beyond the grave. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'll be looking for your update. Sounds interesting!

Or maybe it will be like old bread that gets all green and furry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

The sooner you come to that realization, the better off you will be. You don't have to cheer him on as he digs a deeper hole. Even Frodo hat pity for Golum. But don't turn your back on him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

My WW will justify anything to protect her bad decisions. I liked hearing TogetherAlone's perspective. I can see glimpses of my WW crying out from behind the veil of justification to say she's awful. She's the S#@T! I can't bring myself to call her that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> BUT, I will not justify her behavior or take any of the blame. I may be here in the future, but not that long. This may sound weird, but I need my sons to see what a healthy relationship between a man and a woman looks like so they'll know it when they see it. I've got people from my aunt to my brother-in-law lining up replacement wives!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> My WW hasn't treated me the best since we moved up here. She has a pattern of blaming her unhappiness on other people, and it's not come to a head. She will either discover SHE is the source of her unhappiness, or never recover. I refuse to go down with her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />. You should to, but with him.

Hi, Pebbles.

It sounds like you have an excellent lawyer.

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Of course, WH probably doesn't think he has done anything wrong. He doesn't even have a copy of the court order to refer to (didn't want one). Is he relying on me to let him know the visitation schedule for holidays and such?
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It is not your job to inform your husband of his responsibilities. The law is very picky about that. Ignorance, in this case, is not bliss. His ignorance of his responsibilities and boundaries may very well find him on the wrong side of the law.

The reason he is acting this way is due to his sense of entitlement. In his mind, the only reason he has been nice to you is because he thinks he is being a nice guy. He very likely considers that he has a right to do what he pleases, and that the only reason he does not, is out of respect for some of what he perceives as your wishes, not your rights as defined by the law. His entitlement has blinded him to the facts.

The facts are the ones defined by law and the legal agreement(s) he is bound by. The problem other than the obvious one, is that he senses his control of the situation slipping. It is an easy read for a guy like me, or others here, to deduce that a guy that thinks he has certain rights, whether or not he actually has them, is likely to attempt to exercise them when he feels that his control is threatened.

Please ask your lawyer to mail him a copy of the order ASAP. Maybe he will read it and get a much needed education sans a night in jail. Other than that, you can do nothing to educate him. He is not listening to you. He already thinks that he knows better.

Remember Pebbles, ultimately, this whole thing is about him, and has little to do with you. The fact that you have removed your game piece from his board is what he hates - you wrecked his game. He can't continue to punish you for his actions and bad choices anymore. This is a MAJOR upset to his strategy for hurting you.

The crash and burn will come Pebbles. He will wake up and realize that his anger and hate has been misdirected, and that the guy he has the greatest issues with, is himself. The nastier the lashing out, the harder the fall. That is why you have been encouraged to step back.

God bless,
Gimble

Pebbles, there's another way to look at this. The seeds for using a dysfunctional coping strategy were there in your H all along. The only reason he didn't turn to it was because he had a good life with you. Your strength and support protected him from the weakness that was in him. Protected him for years. But the seeds were there, and eventually something arose in his life that you couldn't protect him from. I suspect that he had a sense of entitlement - as Gimble so accurately described it - to being protected from himself by you. Then, when you inevitably 'failed' at some point, his outrage sparked the seeds into life, and the coping mechanism that had been suppressed for so long leapt into action. He instinctively sought out an alternative source of protection from his own weaknesses.

He doesn't hate YOU. He hates a cartoon figure which he projects outwards over you; he sees this rather than you. If you can remember that if you have to have dealings with him (and with kids it's difficult not to), you will be less vulnerable. Don't allow yourself to see yourself as the cartoon nightmare he's trying to force on you. Work hard on retaining confidence in yourself, and above all, don't let your shock at your H's change of character persuade you into negative feelings about yourself.

This is your H's issue. It would have happened with any woman he married. It will happen with MOW, if that continues - as long as he has no other outlet for his stress. DO NOT LET HIM PIN THIS ON YOU.

TogetherAlone

Pebbles:

I want you to take a step back. Think long term for a minute. Not about if you will end up with your husband, but what you want his relationship with the kids to be. I have seen it on these boards over and over...You can be a stickler with the visitation rules as you have every right to be. It may or may not jolt him back to reality. But often I see that there is a struggle for control...and when the guy sees that they are losing they just give up seeing the kids. You may think "My husband would never do that!" But many do.
Do you want the kids with you all the time with 100% responsibility?
Do you want them to lose their relationship with their dad?
Don't be a total giver, though either. I think that stating that he is responsible for the kids during his parenting time. If he is not available, he may ask you if you can watch the kids. If you are not available, he is responsible for making other arrangements.

THREAD JACK!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />



I firmly agree with TogetherAlone. Nothing you did caused him to be the way he is or act the way he's acting. Nor did I. I hadn't thought of the part that our behavior kept our WS from imploding earlier. I had hoped the stability I brought would help my WW heal. Maybe it did somewhat. I'm sure you and your WS had wonderful times together of joy. You wouldn't have married him otherwise. But something inside THEM snapped, not us. We have to be careful of propping up their bad behavior. We can't compensate for it, or protect them from it. We are not their parents! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> You cannot stop him from making horrible decisions, but you can protect yourself from them.

You are obviously an awesome person. Surviving's 1.5 year old likes you. Kids are a great judge of character. They can SENSE insincerity! I know..... kids LOVE me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So.... dish on Surviving a little. She sounds like a wild woman!

Sleepless.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

I want this for my children, too. It's strange and sad, about a week or so before WH left, my son was talking about one of his friends whose parents had just divorced. He said he was glad his parents loved each other so much. It must be so confusing for the kids, too, that our family seemed happy...and then BOOM! I wonder what that will make them think a marriage relationship should be like.

I just have to get used to all of this. It is still so confusing to me, the 'why' of all of it.

WH must be a very good actor, to have fooled me for so long. I didn't see the sense of entitlement. It makes me worry that every time he was nice to me (which was often) he was just faking it. He seemed like such a giving person. Although...he did sometimes like to play the martyr. For example, if there were a few dishes in the sink that I said I'd get to as soon as I could, he'd wait a short time, then sigh and wash them before I had a chance. Or, if I was sick he might bring me breakfast in bed and tell me to rest, but then complain later on that he'd been spending all his time taking care of the kids and couldn't 'get things done.' These types of things didn't happen often, but maybe they built up his resentment after a while? It would go along with being a conflict avoider, I guess.