I hope so, because I have a very vivid imagination. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Ick, ick, ick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

My lawyer faxed me the revised-revised custody/visitation agreement today. I told her I would agree to sign it as it was. I'll be getting the stipulation of 90 days of no contact between children and MOW. He will be getting one extra day/night of visitation. The rest is pretty much as we agreed when WH and I met in my lawyer's office so long ago.

Now the agreement goes back to him again, for his approval. I wonder if he'll sign it or if he'll want more changes. This could take forever!! And during this time, the children and I are without financial support, living on 1/4 of the income we had before WH left. Why is he dragging this out so long?? It's as if he wants to make me suffer, and now the children along with me. What is it he is trying to get me to do?

I think he knows that the children are my biggest weakness right now. Is he using them to try to control me? It seems he is having some of the bills sent back to me (some of the ones he had been diverting to a P.O. Box for several months). He knows I can't afford to pay them.

As far as I know, WH is still planning to meet us to play pool Thursday night. We had such a pleasant visit Sunday (at least I thought so), and the phone conversation we had last night seemed promising - or do you think it actually set things back? I can't even trust my own thoughts any more, I'm so confused.

It seems like a lot of the other BSs I read about here had some indication of hope from their WSs. My alien has always told me he doesn't want me to have false hope. I just want to reach in and jump start his cold, shriveled heart (but maybe MOW is handling that task right now).

I think I'll add a whiny, heartfelt aaaaaagh!!! Please, stop me before I post to my own thread again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Gimble, I just saw this again. Pebbles, get a grip!! I'm trying, really.

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
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I think he knows that the children are my biggest weakness right now. Is he using them to try to control me? It seems he is having some of the bills sent back to me (some of the ones he had been diverting to a P.O. Box for several months). He knows I can't afford to pay them.
==============================

Unfortunately, many wayward spouses don't think twice about using children as pawns in their game.

He is playing hardball with you.

Don't worry too much about it. You are going to be playing some hardball yourself soon. Don't be vindictive, but step back and look at the situation as a whole (as best as you can). While I wouldn't call it a game since real people and children are involved, it is a battle, if not a war.

The problem with playing, from your vantage, is that you have to do it honest and clean with as much integrity as possible; making your part of the battle seem 4 times harder than what the wayward spouse is facing. Even so, it is the truth of your approach that is most likely to get the wayward spouse's attention.

What all that means is that you learn to fight smarter. That requires that you have your wits about you. To do that, you spend time learning how and why affairs happen, how to deal with one in progress, then ultimately, how to recover.

Knowledge is your new best friend, Pebbles. Truth is your sword and knowledge, your armor.

As for what your wayward spouse tells you, don't put stock in any of it. You can't. His moral base is in a very difference place than yours. You still value honesty, and consider that protecting your family is your highest calling. He does NOT see the world the same way right now.

A wayward spouse is a cheater. A cheater is a liar. You can't have one without the other. It is a simple fact.

When your husband decided to have an illicit affair, he had to shift his moral base to accommodate his actions and bad choices. If he had not done that, then he would likely be overpowered by guilt, and stop the behavior. Since his moral base is 'lowered', he doesn't have as big an issue with manipulation as you would.

So, you can't believe what he promises unless actions prove it. You certainly don't want to hold your breath every time he promises you something. If you do, you will often find your face blue from a lack of oxygen, and later, red from embarrassment and anger.

Please do read and re-read Dr. Harley's concepts and articles about affairs often. There are some links on the right side of this web page. Also, there is much to be learned from reading of other's experiences here.

You are still pretty raw from all this, and the learning curve is steep as hell, but you can do this. You are obviously an intelligent woman.

All the best,
Gimble

Oh, Gimble. I know this is a common story here, but my WH was such a good man before this. I've known him for 22 years and had never known him to tell a lie--before, of course, he started cheating (and I didn't even know!). He was the kind of man who would tell the truth even if it meant hardship to himself. I was so proud of him. I am so disappointed in him now, that he would lower his standards so much. I trusted him completely. I pray for his soul.

I'm sure he knows that I'm seething inside, now that our children are threatened. I'm sure he wants me to become a shrieking shrew. Or maybe he thinks I'll lie down and die, giving in to anything he wants in order to have his financial support. It must really worry/bother him that I haven't even let on that I know or care that he has withdrawn support.

I know he checks the status of the joint bank account almost every day. He has to know that I withdrew fairly large sums of money in the last week. He hasn't mentioned it. I don't plan on mentioning it, either. If he brings it up, I'll just say that I need to know I'll be able to feed our children and keep a roof over their heads.

I can feel a vice squeezing my heart when I think of my innocent, blameless, beautiful children being threatened and used. I haven't told them what their father is doing financially. I just tell them we can't go out to dinner or buy warm-weather clothes because we're "low on cash." They do know their father has a girlfriend. He told them. They also know she is married.

It kills me that the children have to lose some of their innocence this way. My son asked me Sunday, "Why are you being nice to Dad? He is being so mean to you!" I told him that I still loved his dad and I was trying to behave in a way that I could be proud of, following my beliefs.

Gimble, I will keep reading and re-reading all the information here. I also have Surviving an Affair, Torn Asunder, and Private Lies, all of which I have read cover to cover. When I get depressed and angry, I start to lose hope. The longer WH is gone and with each new betrayal he perpetrates, the more it seems like the happy ending/recovery is something out of reach for us.

But I'm not ready to give up yet.

Hi, Pebbles.

I am glad that you aren't ready to give up. This difficulty that you face is a long way from being a lost cause.

According to studies, men in general, are better at loving multiple partners than women are. The plus side to that is that he probably still cares, a lot. The downside is that his loyalties are very divided.

It is important that he see you in the very best possible light, even though you want to beat some sense into him.

There is a way to make some sense out of what your are doing. If you were in recovery with your husband, you would be working very hard at meeting his emotional needs. You don't want to do it now because it seems so unfair, and it is unfair. Still, there is no reason why you can't learn to meet his needs now, and be way ahead by the time you get to recovery.

Even if you end up divorced, the things you are learning and fixing, you will be able to carry with you forever. That means that should you eventually find yourself married to another person, you will have far fewer issues to deal with in a new relationship, and you will be more attractive as a potential partner to boot. That sounds like a win/win situation to me.

How attached to your house are you? Would you be willing to sell?

All the best,
Gimble

I agree. This is why I refuse to argue with him, no matter how hard he tries. Also, I haven't used any DJs since the first week or so after he left. It is also why I am trying so hard to act with integrity, although I am having to be a bit sneaky about having the divorce papers ready to serve (it's practical, in this situation). I will have to keep focused on making myself the more attractive choice, as opposed to MOW, no matter how much WH deserves a good spanking.

I am thankful that I have the opportunity to try to meet some of his emotional needs now, trying to make him feel appreciated and admired. I keep telling myself it's the alien I'm dealing with, not my H, so I can keep myself from giving him a swift round-house kick to the groin. I am afraid that once he starts taking the kids to his place, after the agreement is signed, that we won't spend as much time together. It will be more difficult to try to meet his ENs then.

Point taken. I could afford to lose a few issues I have lying around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


This may not be up to me. WH told my lawyer that he wouldn't want to make the children leave the only house they've ever lived in - but we know how much his promises are worth. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> By the way, the house is in both of our names. It would cost more to rent a decent two-bedroom apartment than it costs to pay the mortgage on the house. We locked in at a low interest rate a long time ago. If we have to sell the house, it will only be because WH wants to punish me, a distinct possibility. He did threaten to make me sell the house when I wouldn't let him take the kids overnight.

Thanks again for your help, Gimble.

Wish me luck! The kids and I are on the way to meet WH to play pool (or maybe bowling - they're at the same place). I'm kind of surprised he is still planning to meet us there.

I'll be pleasant, fun, and bubbly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Even if it kills me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I feel like I'm some kind of undercover operative on a mission (cue Mission Impossible theme). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hope you are having fun, honey!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I thought it was a lot of fun! Which is good, confusing, scary? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> It seemed WH and I had more fun than the kids did, though. DD refused to play. DS ended up being happy, but he pulled away once when WH touched his shoulder.

It seemed like WH genuinely had a good time, too. He smiled a lot. He laughed at what I said (in a good way, not a mean way). He even slipped and called me "babe" once. I caught him checking me out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pool was a good choice. I'm terrible at pool. I didn't even know the rules. I asked him for pointers and took his advice. After I took his advice, I was able to actually hit the balls, sometimes even into the pockets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I was appreciative of his skill (he is good at pool). One time when he messed up, I said we should have a "do over" rule. He seemed to like that idea and suggested I use it a few times, too. He looked me in the eyes and smiled quite a bit.

There was absolutely no unpleasantness between us at all, no mention of visitation, financial support, etc. It was a great family outing, except for DD being pouty - and us going to separate cars and homes afterward.

So now I am totally confused (what else is new?). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Was he faking nice to me so that I will become more compliant (since being mean to me isn't working)? He seemed to be genuinely happy. But I was fooled for so long when I didn't know he was having an affair, maybe I'm reading him wrong. Maybe he was thinking, "This was fun. When I'm rid of Pebbles, John's wife and I can do this with the kids. That will be even better!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

So, what do you think?

That's great Pebbles. Sounds like my WW and I last week playing pool with DS. Now beware! I had such a good time that when she got back to Europe, I let my guard down and let her suck me into a circular argument, got testy and shot a few angry outbursts over the bow. Hung up on her too after she got nasty. She had refused to NC with OM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> DAMNIT! The problem was the fun we had together gave me hope. I thought I had an opening and let guard down. Somebody should have just shot me!!

As a result I got the alien messages on my other post.

You're doing great girl, just stay on your toes. We can't control them or even TEACH them. They're still under the influence.

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
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So now I am totally confused (what else is new?). Was he faking nice to me so that I will become more compliant (since being mean to me isn't working)? He seemed to be genuinely happy. But I was fooled for so long when I didn't know he was having an affair, maybe I'm reading him wrong. Maybe he was thinking, "This was fun. When I'm rid of Pebbles, John's wife and I can do this with the kids. That will be even better!"
=======================================

I think that you had a good time with your wayward husband, and that good time was had within reasonable constraints and boundaries that everyone respected. Nothing more, nothing less. You can't read tea leaves or his mind. Take it at face value. Good entertainment.

What you need to do for now, is something that guys are accused of all the time. Compartmentalize. You stick with your boundaries, and if he crosses one, you knock him back across it in under 2 milliseconds (figuratively, of course). Then you go on about your life. You don't condone his bad behavior. Just like a rebellious teen, address it and move on.

Don't forget that your kids have been betrayed just like you. They are having to deal with the loss of their father, and the same changes in his personality that you are privy to. They are ill equipped to deal with all this. You are having a hard time, they are too. Make sure that you make yourself available to them. Offer to answer any questions they might have, and be honest with them. Don't avoid their questions. That is part of being their hero.

One thing is for certain, you don't want them getting their "facts" from other children their age in similar circumstances.

You did good on the family outing. He noticed that the kids didn't have a good time. Make sure that you don't force him on them. Let him face his own bad choices.

All the best,
Gimble

***So now I am totally confused (what else is new?). Was he faking nice to me so that I will become more compliant (since being mean to me isn't working)? He seemed to be genuinely happy.***

Of course he's happy. Here's what he's thinking:

"Wow, this is GREAT! I can be married, get a girlfriend, move out and abandon my family, but my wife will learn to accept it! She'll still come out and bring the kids and we can still be a family whenever I feel like it! I can have a wife *and* a girlfriend *and* my kids, and they will all learn to accept living like this! My life is GREAT!"

This is the major problem I have with doing stuff like this in Plan A -- it allows the WS to believe that the BS will learn to accept the new arrangment and be okay with it, and thus the suffering of the BS and the family is greatly prolonged. But that is just me and I know most here don't agree.
Mulan

I understand mulan's observation about how Plan A can seem to "enable" an affair. Left in place indefinitely, it can.

That's why there's exposure and a Plan B.

A good Plan A sets up the "void" of Plan B. The WS gets to have it GREAT for awhile. In the meantime, we hope this also produces recognition that "GREAT" might not last and that exposure tips the scale for a mentally healthy, i.e., non personality disorder, WS to get their wits about them.

If exposure doesn't work and the BS can't avoid the LBs any longer, Plan B comes to the rescue and "GREAT" is suddenly pulled out from under the WS. Now it's only "great" with the OP and the WS either hunkers down, avoiding admitting a mistake, or has the courage to admit they may have been wrong all along. The "GREAT" contribution by the BS can begin to look pretty darn good. Imagine if the BS had not done Plan A?

Hi, Mulan.

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This is the major problem I have with doing stuff like this in Plan A
===========================

If you read back a page or two, there is a specific plan in play for Pebbles.

Just as WAT said, the current behavior certainly is not forever.

All the best,
Gimble

WH always seemed mentally healthy to me. He had seemed somewhat depressed in the last few months, and still does, I think. I thought he was going through a midlife crisis (complaining of getting old, etc.). Apparently leading a double life is stressful and can make one depressed.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> At our one and only visit to the MC, the counselor said he thought WH was depressed. WH replied that he was only depressed when he was with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Mulan, this is what I'm hoping I will be able to accomplish with my Plan A. As WAT said, though, I won't be in Plan A for an indefinite period of time.

Also, I'm hoping that going through the ordeal of setting up a visitation/custody agreement and hearing about the amount of child/spousal support he will be paying will insert some reality into La La Land. One of my BIL's told me that WH is very stressed over finances right now (good!). Also, WH was extremely upset when I wouldn't let him take the children overnight without a visitation agreement (a little reality check?).

Exposure so far (to his parents and MOW's husband) has not seemed to have much of an effect. WH must have noticed that our children have been affected by what he has done, but he has said, "They'll get used to it soon."

Besides my own family, I have also exposed to the people I work with (who are also people WH is in contact with because our daughter is a student in my class). I have noticed that WH has not visited the school since he left us. He has said he wants to pick DD up from school sometime, so maybe he isn't bothered by the fact that everyone at the school wants to give him a piece of their mind. He actually seems to think that everyone will be okay with what he has done. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But, Gimble, a crystal ball and/or tea leaves are what I want (insert temper tantrum)!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> It would makes things so much easier to understand.

WH still hasn't signed the visitation/custody agreement, so I won't be allowing the children to spend the weekend at his place this weekend. We'll see if WH even asks. I will work on compartmentalization - a tough skill for me.

One of my worries (among all the others) is that my children never mention WH, unless I talk about him first. Even if I bring up the subject, they won't say more than one or two words. My parents, with whom the kids spend a lot of time, say they've never heard either child mention their father since he's left. The kids have to be thinking about him and the situation.

I hope he's noticing how the kids are feeling. His fog is so thick that he thinks they'll be fine in no time. He is still under the impression that he, the kids, and MOW will play happy family now, without any adjustment period (even though MOW's own child lives with his father and rarely sees her).

Okay, status report on Plan A in last week or so:

Trying to meet WH's ENs: positive visit last Sunday, positive? phone call Tuesday, positive family outing Thursday.

Boundary setting/reality checks: called MIL&FIL and mentioned no financial support, faxing back and forth visitation agreement, refusing to let WH take kids overnight w/o agreement.

Personal growth: self-improvement, reading - here and recommended books - to learn about affairs

Next, finalize visitation agreement, serve divorce papers to secure financial support (with disclaimer that I do not want divorce)...then more exposure.

Right now...dinner for kids, Nyquil and a long nap with the dogs for my cold. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

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The kids have to be thinking about him and the situation.
=========================

No doubt they are, and no doubt they probably know more than you think.

I am sorry for not remembering, but I don't recall the kids ages.

Do make sure that you are open and honest anytime they have a question about your situation. Plan some fun things to do at home just with you and the kids. Nothing forced, something very relaxed but fun.

Quote:
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I hope he's noticing how the kids are feeling. His fog is so thick that he thinks they'll be fine in no time. He is still under the impression that he, the kids, and MOW will play happy family now, without any adjustment period (even though MOW's own child lives with his father and rarely sees her).
=================================

He notices. whether it is conscious or not, it will pop out at him sooner or later. It is hard not to notice your child pull away when you touch them. He may pour some fog juice on it to make it go away, but he noticed.

The reason that most wayward spouses want to involve themselves with each other's children, is in an effort to legitimize their affair, and to some degree, to placate the nagging sense that they are not being a good parent right now. They know they should be doing better, but meeting the chemical need is more important to them.

I like your plan, and your approach to get it done, Pebbles. It is a hard thing to do, but you are facing it head on. That is what heros do.

God bless,
Gimble

My son is 13-1/2 and my daughter is 9-1/2. Both children know their father left us for a married woman that he loves more than he loves their mother. He told them this himself (all but the part about her being married). DS found out about her being married and informed his sister.

Gimble, what really worries me is that they do not ask any questions at all! They never even talk about him of their own volition. I wish they would.

When I ask them about how they are feeling, they have very little to say. DD says she doesn't care that her dad is gone and that she is used to it, but she won't talk to him on the phone and ignores him when she sees him in person. She is also very clingy with me (she wasn't before). DS asked once if his dad was going to hell. I gave him the generality that whether a person goes to hell or not is between him and God. DS asked a few questions about adultery on one occasion, which I answered honestly. He seems to be very angry, but he seems to want to avoid conflict with his father and tries to be pleasant. Neither child has asked if their father is coming back - or has said that they want him to.

DS cried once when WH told the kids about MOW. I have never seen DD cry at all.

I hope they are not trying to spare my feelings by not talking about their dad. I would like to get them into some kind of counseling during summer vacation. Both children are very shy with strangers and I am afraid they wouldn't open up with a counselor, especially DD, but it's worth a try.

Should I talk to them more about what is going on? And if I do, what else should I tell them? I have told them I think what WH is doing is wrong and that it hurts me - and that I know it's hurting them. They also know I still love their father and that it's okay with me if they want to see him. Neither child asks to see him or call him.

We take the dogs on long walks. We also have "literature hour" where both kids sit next to me and I read to them, usually literary masterpieces like the Captain Underpants series.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> We do other things, too, like puzzles, board games, etc.

I hope he notices. He used to have such a close, loving relationship with them, that he is now ruining. Looking back, WH did pull away from them the last few months before he left. I attributed it to midlife crisis and work stress, but now...

Ick. During the visitation/custody planning, my lawyer told WH that I was willing to give him one extra day of visitation, if he was willing to agree to my stipulation of no contact between children and MOW for 6 months. He would not agree. Having time with MOW was more important to him than having his children for an extra day.

Thank you, Gimble. Your advice has been so helpful and encouraging. And the occasional friendly 2x4 is welcome, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I always look forward to your replies. There would be no plan without you and the other MBers who have been kind enough to help me.

I was just thinking, it's amazing what you can survive when you have no other choice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I was also thinking, why are all of my posts soooo looong? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Pebbles.

Quote:
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Should I talk to them more about what is going on? And if I do, what else should I tell them? I have told them I think what WH is doing is wrong and that it hurts me - and that I know it's hurting them. They also know I still love their father and that it's okay with me if they want to see him. Neither child asks to see him or call him.
=============================

With your son nearing 14, if he is not getting answers from you, he is likely getting them somewhere else, or at least has his ears attuned to what others in his age range are saying about adultery and divorce.

I think that you may want to tell them simply, that if they want to talk about it with you, you will answer any of their questions openly and honestly.

Since you had tried pushing father and kids together some, you might need to address that before they will feel comfortable opening up - possibly an apology to the kids is in order. They may very well believe that you want them to be 'okay' with him. Especially your son. Sons get much of their identity from their mothers. He may not understand your seeming acceptance of husband's activities.

Quote:
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Ick. During the visitation/custody planning, my lawyer told WH that I was willing to give him one extra day of visitation, if he was willing to agree to my stipulation of no contact between children and MOW for 6 months. He would not agree. Having time with MOW was more important to him than having his children for an extra day.
======================================

A wayward spouse will often choose the other person over their own children, hence the need for a betrayed spouse to be extra vigilant for their children.

His reasoning is that the sooner he gets them introduced, the sooner the kids will come to accept the situation. The fact is, that outcome is uncertain at best. Often, the kids, especially the older ones, will never accept the position of the new 'parent' and will often 'act out'. I hear of fathers and mothers demanding that their children respect the 'other person'. While that type of behavior is to be expected of a wayward spouse, it rarely fails to anger me.

Your children are very fortunate to have a mother like you.

God bless,
Gimble

If you want a strategic advantage it can be arranged if your husband has net mail. I put Keylogger software on my home computer, so when my wife came over last week to use it, I got her password to her E-Mail account and have been tracking her correspondence between OM, her mom, etc.

Worked great.