Hi, Sleepless.

I think it was too wordy, and was bordering on giving her "what for". You can't teach your wayward spouse much. She doesn't want to learn from you. If you chide her much, then she won't listen to anything you have to say in the future.

If you are going to speak truth to her, do it concisely.

You: "I know that other boy is there with you, and that you spent over $1,000 dollars on a ticket for him"

WW: "But I promise that we haven't done anything - nothing intimate!!"

You: "Wife, I have no reason to believe anything you have said. Your actions have proven that you are not being honest with me. Goodbye."

End of conversation.

If you are going to talk of reconciliation, then you have good scripts to use from your visits with Steve Harley and from here. Use the stuff he told you. It works.

Keeping your 'information sessions' short, also leaves her wondering what the extent of your knowledge about her actions is. That will stick in her craw. When you tell her everything you know, then you lose some advantage.

You are doing well, Sleepless.

God bless,
Gimble

You're right G. I'm just naturally verbose!

I just posted the same advice to someone else. If you don't volunteer information, it drives WS nuts.

WW called this morning while I was in the shower. I didn't call back to throw off her pattern of relying on me certain times.

Off to see the lawyer about keeping DS here, but will keep lawyer on short leash for now. No attacks.

I've read the thread from where you left off on Friday and am suprised that your WW didn't react more harshly to you having cancelled the ticket. I do feel that you did the right thing, and I am glad that she didn't go off on you.

Were you able to get through to OM's father?

I know that you didn't call WW right back after you missed her call this morning - have you talked to her since then?

Cat

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
===========================
WW called this morning while I was in the shower. I didn't call back to throw off her pattern of relying on me certain times.
===========================

Great! Keep it up.

Next you start randomly calling her at odd times. Around bedtime is good, but don't call at the same time everyday, keep it random. Do you see why?

"Hi, wife, I just called to see how you are. So, How are you?"

All the best,
Gimble

OK guys. Just got the broadside from WW. After talking to the lawyer for two hours (very nice view looking over Puget Sound, now I know where my money is going!!!). She was actually very nice, and receptive to my desire not to play hardball with WW until she rejects my proposal to have DS8 stay with me. We formed a plan that would make her challenge to this proposal look INCREDIBLY negative for her. She'll get that in about two weeks since another part of my case is not to tell her he's staying for as long as I can to show a judge he's in a more stable environment here since he's been there longer. That was rambling.

WW called me at work today and the dam just BURST. I let out a couple of little comments she took wrong and blew up a little, but otherwise stayed really calm and reversed babbled. Didn't feel really adequate sometimes, but in retrospect, no matter what I say will do anything.

Essentially OM left "for good" yesterday, but she really loved him. After having that "feeling" again that she never had with me (Confirmed by me and Steve Harley), and she couldn't try and get it with me because it would be contrived. She wrote him a letter telling how she loved him but could not maintain the relationship, he wanted to be friends, but she could not do that. Maybe in the years future, they could be together again some day.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />.

I was really good. I understood she was hurting, and said I didn't like to see her in pain like this, contrary to what she thought.

I'll write more later. Gotta get home to dinner!!

But for a sample highlight.

WW: I'll never be yours. I would rather stab a knife through my heart right in front of you. You'll never posess me!!!

Hi, Sleepless.

Wife said: "I'll never be yours. I would rather stab a knife through my heart right in front of you. You'll never posess me!!!"

You say: "Okay"

All the best,
Gimble

Oh Good. Kinda said that. Said, "You don't want to do that."

Here is the rest of the conversation. Mostly let her do the talking. Excerpts from over an hour dialogue!

All WW and most of the phrases ran together.


Cried some more, read letter she wrote to OM(19).

A lot of romantic fog talk but said she knows OM cared for her and lover her. After 10 years of me saying "love is a choice" I drove he away!

To OM: Love like ours doesn't happen every day. Maybe some day later we can be together. But not now. Can't be friends because it's too painful. But she'll always love him.

She told me he's probably the more mature one. I told her it sounds like it.

The to me she started crying and sobbing. "I feel guilty I don't love you. I love OM and wanted to see him. I shouldn't have brought him back with me (to son's Eagle ceremony). It was like a drug. I couldn't be without him. (ding ding ding ding) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />"

Me- You're probably right, you shouldn't have brought him.

WW: But I couldn't be without him! OM is structured and organized....things I like. Maybe we're too much alike.

Me: Uh huh.

WW to me: I'll never love you! I can't stand to look at you or touch you.

Me: That would be a roadblock.

WW: You think love is a choice, but why would I choose a 19 year old!??

Me: (One love buster) Sounds like it's more lust than love. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

WW: Un-recalled ranting about how I make her feel like dirt.

Apparently she discovered I had cancelled the ticket when he was at the airport and couldn't get on.

WW: I was so pissed at you, I bought the ticket so you wouldn't control me!!! ($1500 is pretty angry)

Me: Well since our finances aren't separated, I wish you hadn't spent our money that way. DS18 wanted a loan for motorcycle, but I told him mom is spending that money on airplane tix for OM, so it might be hard.

WW: I'm scared of you. You just want to see me hurt! (More crying.) I just can't love you the way you need. I ruined enough of your life. I can't give you what you want. If I "learned" to love you it would be contrived.

Me: I don't know if there's a way, but I would sure like to try. I think there could be a chance.

WW: Why would you want to be with me? How can you love me? Because you choose to (scoffing)?

Me: We had a lot of love between us once. I would regret not trying to see if we couldn't get that feeling of love for each other.

WW: We're done now though. I miss him. (He left this afternoon from Europe) He just went around and bought himself wine to take back and gifts for his friends. I begged him to buy me a bear. He did. But it doesn't mean anything. I love it anyway. (Don't they have medication for this???)

WW: I can't replace those feelings. I'm the S%$T. You make me feel like I did in H.S.

Me: I don't think you are, and never have.

WW: Well I would rather be that than married to you! I'll never be yours! You say you love me!? You can't control me! I don't trust anyone. I want to be alone without you!

Me: But you want to be with OM, DS18 and DS8 and Old boyfriend if he comes over?

WW: You were happy when about cancelling the ticket?
Me: Yep!

WW: You hurt me!
Me: I didn't really want to pay for OM's ticket over there.

WW: Are you reading my E-Mail? Do you have my password? Did I leave a screen open?

Me: (Lying my butt off) No, how could I do that? But if you send them to me, I'll be happy to read through them.

WW: I don't want to be married to you. You talk to me all nice, but then you spring something on me to hurt me, like retracting the D paperwork.

WW: I want DS8 here with me. I don't want DS8 to think I'm a SL&T! You can't control me. I'll never ever ever be your lover!

WW: (Screaming) Take what you want, just leave me alone! I just want you away from me as fast as I can!!! You F$%#ed me like I'm being (violated)! Take my money, but let me go or I'll stab myself right in front of you.

Me: Listen, you're getting upset, why don't we talk later.
(hung up)

Called back later and left message.
WW: I'm sorry I yelled at you. I'm really tired. I haven't slept much (sounds like your drinking though)
I can't give you any more than you want (sic) SIS, I know I can't

I just need to go to sleep.

End of transmission.

If you're still with me ... anyone. It was like taking a broadside from the 16" guns on the Missouri. (I watch the History Channel). I remained strangely calm. I realize this is day one of withdrawal, but I don't know guys. Owww. Is it time to start posting personal ads yet? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I sent her pictures of the boys in So. Cal this weekend. She talked about talking to DS18 and said he agreed with her. I called DS18 later and said, don't let mom freak you out. Try not to take sides, but just protect yourself from any strange things she says or asks. He said it's really weird talking to her.

BTW, I feel really bad lying to her about the E-Mail. But I'm protecting the information until DS8 is obviously not coming back. I'm not afraid of the LB, but the way the information could be used for custody. I don't think there will be any more info. Should I tell her now or wait til the fog clears?

OK, I need a beer.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hey Cat. Read response to WW comments on cancelling ticket. I've been to busy with WW to call OM's dad, but will probably send him a message.

Per Gimble's advice, I'm going to let her bob out there on another continent alone for awhile. Call her at unpredictable times. Phone will be off the hook for our bedtime (9 hour difference) I'll talk to her late at night when she's tired and strung out from stress. Take her out of a pattern, but keep plan A going.

Hi, Sleepless.

That conversation sounds like your wife is wayward (see, I do have a sense of humor).

Now a question for you. Does she have a job? How is she performing it?

I suggest that you consider shortening your answers to her questions to one of the following;

a) "Okay"
b) "Interesting"
c) "I'm not sure" (this one would have worked nicely on the email password)

and your script, of course.

It hurts to hear that all of her problems are your fault, but I think you did well.

Another question, what happened to other boy? He dumped her after he did her, or he just dumped her or his dad got to him? That much drama is definitely a cover for an untold event. Any ideas what it was?

All the best,
Gimble

SIS,
You did so well in that call with WW!! Wow, good job.

Are you sure she doesn't read here? If you're not sure, you may want to delete any information you'd rather her not know. Just a thought I'd throw in.

I'm having a beer too. Cheers and clink,
GS

PS - I would have asked WW if OM was old enough to be buying all that wine, or if she had to buy it for him. Evil thought...but I guess that would be an LB.

Outstanding! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I knew you could do it.

WW does have a job. She has a pretty high ranking political position in the U.S. government about two levels below a cabinet position. You wouldn't know her. Her old boss was on CSPAN the other day. It sounds like her current boss is concerned about several upcoming meetings etc. She had her assistant in Europe by the OM his $1500 ticket with her credit card. I really like her too. WW is not sleeping, not eating much. She's in the tank! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I hope this is rock bottom. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> If you love someone you hate to see them in pain unless there is an upside later.

She keeps asking what I want. Open ended questions are difficult to answer with a, b, c, so I use the script. I want us to be in love and together as a family. She's still cynical so no teaching. She did say,"I think your website method is too contrived. It won't work" When she asked about the divorce procedures, I told her that she should check her website for that, I had no information. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I got the "Suffocation would be an easy way to die" I told her, oh no, the motorcycle driving into the truck would be faster.

Used many OKs.

I'm of much stronger character to believe her problems are my fault. I use "OK" instead of "when are you going to take responsibility for your own actions?"

She asks if this is how conversations are going to be. I said I would rather talk about how the divorce is affecting the boys, but you only want to talk about OM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />



You know what I think. He was all hot and bothered to be with her in DC last month, but she said nothing happened because his piercing "TORE OUT" of his "Johnson" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> So he was performance inhibited. This is confirmed by one of his E-Mails. This visit she said he was cool, and nothing happened, she wishes it did.

I think he figured out the endorphins caused her to be psycho, and he didn't want to deal with that. He's not an evil kid, just caught up in the emotion and my wife met some of his needs. She is an EXTREMELY beautiful woman. At 30 she had highschool kids hitting on her. Heck at 36 she had highschool kids telling her son that she's hot. Yes, he was grossed out. Anyway, from his E-Mails, he wasn't as into her as she apparently was to him. Right before he flew out, she kept asking him if he was coming. Sounded REALLY needy. He would reply, stop asking me, I'm coming! A real lovers' quarrel <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

My wife commented she wishes they had done it, but maybe it was God protecting them...... Maybe it was. Makes me feel a little better.

Please grade Q and A
WW:What do you want from me.
Me: To have you love me and I love you.

WW: Why won't you let me go. If you love something you let it go, and if it comes back to you then it's real.

Me: I can't hold you. You filed the divorce. I can only delay it so I know it wasn't rushed. (I don't like this answer)

WW: I don't know what you're trying to do to me.
Me: Nothing.

Seems weak.

Thank you! Gimble sets high standards. I've been working hard. Really taking notes.

Gentlsoul! Like your style. You'll like this. Tonight she wanted to know if I had finished some divorce paperwork, so I asked her,"Why don't you fill it out? You've got enough time to fly OM over for the weekend and party. I'm taking care of the kids." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> OUCH! She didn't like that.

Tonight DS18 called. He said WW called him right after we hung up and said she doesn't want him to talk to me anymore.
He was also supposed to tell me to let her go. (I adopted him when he was 12 and gave him a ring when he was 8 years old in the wedding ceremony)

I told him to ignore mom's comments for now and gave him the drug analogy. I also said, no matter what mom says, you'll always be my son, just like DS8. Mom won't sound so crazy in about a month. (I hope I'm right!)

Gimble thought she might be reading it too, so I don't say anything I wouldn't say with her listening. It might make her mad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

So, other boy doesn't like the needy thing. Imagine that, nobody likes it.

I think your answers were fine. Here are some alternates.

WW: What do you want from me.
Me: I want you work with me on a new marriage, and new love for both of us.

WW: Why won't you let me go. If you love something you let it go, and if it comes back to you then it's real.
Me: You don't need my permission to go, and that logic is circular, it is also a cop out.

WW: I don't know what you're trying to do to me.
Me: I'm not sure that I am trying to do anything to you.

Quote:
==================================
My wife commented she wishes they had done it, but maybe it was God protecting them
==================================

Don't read anything into this. For now, assume that she has been physical with someone else. As hard as that sounds, it will be easier for you to deal with in the long run.

Now, don't you wish I hadn't talked to you tonight :-)

I actually have a good sense of humor, but I am deadly serious about hating affairs. I hate everything about them, and I have a difficult time finding much funny about them.

God bless,
Gimble

SIS,

I am so proud of the way you handled WW! I don't have any wisdom to share, but I am supportive <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Cat

That's great. The second response is especially important. I'm an engineer, I don't like circular arguments. Drive me NUTS. That's when I blew up on her two weeks ago. SH told me to stay out of those. I've used the last response several times.

Regardless of when she was intimate with him. I know they were unclothed and writhing together. I've wrestled with that all ready. Yep, there's that stomach twinge again.

I will put no creedance in much of what she says until she's had some time in endorphin detox and has hopefully talked to a therapist.

It's easier for me to justify lying and witholding information from her knowing that we're not at the building a loving relationship phase yet.

She's still holding onto the teddy bear he got her. Do I find and burn it if I find it?

I take this much more seriously than my writing suggests. My father taught me always to abhor infidelity. My wife told me once after we were married, "You're going to fool around one day, all men do." I told her,"Not all men do, and I don't associate with the ones who do." I take great pains not to be tempted, it didn't occur to me my wife would be susceptible.

Speaking of that. She told me her ex-fiancee from 18 years ago still loves her and says he always will. He sent suggestive E-Mails to her during their E-Mail correspondence, but also told her to think about what she's doing and try to work it out with me. I told her last night that if her Ex Fiancee' was threatening his marriage by continuing and emotional relationship with you.

WW: Are you going to try and break up his marriage too?
Me: No I would be hopefully saving his marriage.

She called back later last night and asked if we should just E-Mail for awhile. I said we can do either one, but I have no problems with the phone calls.

Gimble. I take this deadly seriously. I don't want to look back and think I could have done one more thing. That's why I'm on here every day checking my plan. I don't believe in taking risks with my family... ever. I still like to use the levity to moderate my stress level.

But don't worry! I can take it G <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Cat-A Thanks for the encouragement! It's easy to lose perspective when you're in the fight! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey. She keeps asking me to get rid of my objection to the joinder on my D papers. I told her I can't stop her from the D, but I don't have to help her.

Does she get that the cage door is open, but I'm not packing the truck and moving her out??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Did it get through the fog, or should I reiterate it to her?

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
===============================
He sent suggestive E-Mails to her during their E-Mail correspondence, but also told her to think about what she's doing and try to work it out with me.
===============================

I hope that you sent his wife copies.


Quote:
===============================
She called back later last night and asked if we should just E-Mail for awhile. I said we can do either one, but I have no problems with the phone calls
===============================

And now it is very important that you start calling her a couple of times a day at random times just to see how she is doing.

The point is not to irritate her, but to be present, especially at times when she might be wanting to think about you the least. Have something to tell her. "The boys and I launched rockets today. We had a blast. I wish you could have been here."

Don't give away your plans.

Gimble

Quote:
==============================
Did it get through the fog, or should I reiterate it to her?
==============================

Don't reiterate. You can't teach her. Don't tell her the door is open. She has eyes and a brain and she is a grown up - well, mostly :-)

All the best,
Gimble

Awww nuts. I couldn't resist the teaching point. But I kept it short <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


SH told me to hold off. As much as he wants me to reveal it, it's not quite time yet. I should wait a little longer, until my son is safely with me.

Here is her E-Mail from last night. She has always struggled with her self worth regarding the family. She's never been able to tell me how she felt until this E-Mail. I provided a sympathetic response to that one. My responses are embedded in her message.



I get more pain from seeing her in pain than thinking about her and the OM. I can rationalize that relationship. I know her pain is real, and it hurts me. She used to yell at me and try to make me feel bad. It just ticked me off. Finally, she starts to cry and reveal hurt and pain. It made me cry the other night to hear her like that. I didn't tell her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hi, Sleepless.

Quote:
=====================================
SH told me to hold off. As much as he wants me to reveal it, it's not quite time yet. I should wait a little longer, until my son is safely with me.
=====================================

I thought your son was with you??

On the rest of it, what you are reading as pain is her attempt to justify her actions by making it all your fault. The rest of it is simple depression. That depression is very common among wayward spouses. It is a result of the actions they have taken.

Be careful what you are sympathetic toward. You can listen to your wife lament her lack of ever caring for you, but as for giving it much credence, I wouldn't. It is mostly a lie - a rewriting of your marital history.

I am not saying that there isn't some truth laced in there with the rest of it, but I will tell you that you will drive yourself insane trying to figure out what is what.

She is still wanting the same thing from you. She wants you to divorce her, and make her feel okay about it because she wants to go and feed her chemistry. She will promise almost anything to get her way. Does that sound rational to you?

If you do what she wants, the way she wants it right now, when her brain finally returns to normal, she will never be able to forgive you for not standing up to her when she needed you the most.

Don't tell her the cage is open. Let her figure that out for herself. I liked the way you handled the rest of it.

Hang in there.

Gimble