I don't understand you adulterous creeps. How do you live with yourselves? I've read many "betrayers'" posts & threads, and seen no true remorse! You all feel sorry for yourselves, that is NOT what remorse is! <P>You betrayers are all so eager to justify your betrayal with huge lists of perceived faults and shortcomings of your SO. "They did this, they did that - or didn't," so that's why you betrayed. You know what - it's not your SO's fault, it is YOUR fault you had an affair! <P>All you creeps seem to feel is sad that you are not forgiven, sad that you were caught, sad that you had to end it with the OP, frustrated that it is taking so long for your SO to "get over it." Well, you know what? NOTHING you will ever do in your entire life will make up for your betrayal. Your marriage may be salvaged, your SO may choose to stay with you, but you ALWAYS will be the one who went out of their way to dishonor and betray those whom you supposedly loved most and who loved you most. Your SO will never "get over it" - they might learn how to deal with it, and they might not. It is never your SO's fault if they choose not to forgive and not to reconcile, it is (and was from the beginning) your - the betrayer's - fault.<P>If you don't want to be in a relationship, walk away. If you LUST after somebody else, be honest with your SO and break off your relationship with them instead of breaking your SO's heart by cheating on them.<P>THINK ABOUT IT:<P>How can you lie every day, every minute, every second, about the affair?<BR>How can you lie every day about how you feel about your SO? <BR>How ca you lie every day about how you feel about the OP?<BR>How can you lie about everything that you supposedly hold closest to your heart every single moment?<BR>How can you betray those who love you? <BR>How can you betray your SO to whom you CHOSE to make a vow of fidelity and honesty?<P>...and for the OP out there: <P>How can you live with yourself knowing you are destroying somebody else's life, their marriage, maybe ruining/scarring some kid's childhood? You would have to be some kind of inhuman monster to be able to justify this sort of relationship, to selfishly please yourself at the expense of others, selfishly satisfying your need for sex or emotional support or whatever it is you told yourself you needed - paying for it with the pain of others, knowing full well what you were doing to other people!!! How can you look at yourself in the mirror at all???<P>You are not forced to live a life and deceit through anybody elses' actions - you choose to act the way you do. I don't understand how anybody would willingly choose to devestate the spirit of ANYBODY, let alone those who love them most in life. <P>Human beings are fragile, emotional, and sexual creatures but humans were blessed with an intellect which gave us the capability to make CHOICES. I don't understand how you betrayers could do what you have done - IMHO you have willingly chosen to give up everything worthwhile in the human spirit.<P>So tell me now, honestly, no lies or pathetic excuses - how DO you creeps do it???

WHOA - Rein back a little with the namecalling......<P>I am sorry that you are so angry and I hope and pray that your pain is not as strong as the anger is.<P>Elixir, you have made some good points but I'm afraid that they will not be noticed through all the disrespectful words surrounding them.<P>What is it? What has happened to make you so angry and hurt. You're right people are human and have control...sometimes they make mistakes or choose badly......Is it for us to throw others into damnation because of those "human" faults?<P>Not everyone puts careful and considerate thought into doing or saying something ahead of time. It's not a good practice......but it happens!!<P>I, for one, wish it didn't but all I can do is make sure of it for myself.<P>Please Elixir, whatever the cause of your lashing out......tell us and it will help.<P>There are a lot of wonderful people here both betrayed and betrayers alike. Some Betrayers are more repentative than others and are working very hard to improve themselves and their marriages/relationships. Just like the fact that there are some betrayed people who work through the pain and anger and can look at themselves and learn to remedy their part in the breakdown of the marriage. <P>EVERYONE here is learning!!!! EVERYONE here is trying to work through their pain, whether it is for what they did or for what they received!!!!<P>People are all different.....God made us that way. Some deal well with problems in their lives and others do not. Some have high self esteem, others need theirs boosted. Some got stuck in some stagnant cycle and others have too much chaos going on.<P>But, Elixir.......we are ALL human!!!<P>We are ALL different.<P>NONE of us are creeps!!!!!<P>A BIG HUG to you and I will say a prayer that God help you through you anger and pain.<P>Sheba <BR><p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited September 24, 1999).]

Elixir,<BR> You know under your anger, I feel there must be a lot of pain. <BR> No there is no excuse for infidelity, but there are reasons. Most of us admit we failed to see the problems in our marriages before our spouse cheated. Or if we did see them , we didn't know how to fix them. <BR> Please try to uderstand that we are all here to try to make our marriages and ourselves better. And anger does have it's place in that process. But so does love and forgiveness, not only of our spouses but of ourselves too. And believe me when I tell you that while many spouses have yet to feel remorse for their actions and the pain caused by them, many do know , understand, and are sorry for that pain. <BR> If I cry at night, and I still do a year later, my h knows why I hurt. Yes it bothers him. He wishes I could just get over it, that we could pretend it never happened. But he knows that can't happen. And he feels helpless because he can't make my pain go away.<BR> You have a right to your opinion, and to post what you wish, however if you post with less anger you may be surprised at the responces you get. And please try to remember that we betrayed spouses for the most part love our partners deeply, and it hurts us to see them called such names.<BR> I'm not trying to make you angry, or to pick a fight, Just being honest.<BR> Why don't you post your story here and let us try to help you ?<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Darn it Sheba, stop posting when I do !!! lol<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Hi Deb!!!!!

It's posts like this that make me thank God my H cheated too. Elixir, that's right, I guess we're both creeps in your eyes, but as I've said many times before, I guess that also shows we're "meant for each other." You calling me a creep doesn't hurt me. Sticks and stones. But if it were my H calling me a creep, or even thinking it, you're right, we'd never make it. Nobody wants to be married to a creep. But, also, nobody wants to be married to someone who thinks they're a creep either.<P>Yes, there are some betrayers who come onto this forum and do not express remorse, but the majority do. The majority realize we've made mistakes, and we are not trying to justify but trying to understand how it happened. We are trying to rebuild and repair our marriages. We are grateful for our second chance to have a happy, successful marriages. That's where most of us are.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you don't want to be in a relationship, walk away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Those are very good words to the wise. So, my question to you is, if you are convinced that your spouse is a creep and you will never forgive, why would you stay? Why would you continue to put yourself, and your spouse, through years of unhappiness and torment?<P>That's where forgiveness comes in. If you are to remain together, it's really the only way. Otherwise, both spouses are doomed to a life of unhappiness and torment. Sure, you'll be punishing the creep, but you'll also be punishing yourself and preventing yourself from having a healthy, happy and successful relationship.<P>As I see it, there are only two ways spouses can win in these situations: 1) To forgive each other and work hard with your spouse to correct the mistakes of the past, ensuring a happy, healthy, successful and loving marriage in the future ... OR... 2) To LEAVE your spouse and start your life over again hoping that next time, if there is a next time, you will be able to have relationship(s) that are healthy, happy, successful and loving. The choice is each of ours.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Hi, Elixir, I'm glad you're here. Sounds like you need to be here with a family of people who want to help. I have to agree with Deb and Sheba and I'm so very sorry for your pain.<P>I have to disagree with you, though. I do see remorse. Most all the betrayers who come here I've found to be good and decent people that I've grown to respect a great deal. They are also fighting the pain. They are taking responsibility for their actions and working hard to make ammends and restore their marriages. I have learned a lot about courage from these people. We are all human and have all made our share of mistakes - betrayed and betrayer alike - and we all share the pain of these mistakes. Please let us know more about yourself. Maybe we can help - at least be a sounding board for you to vent those frustrations and share the pain you're obviously going through. <P>My prayers are with you.<P>Lori

Elixer - I add my agreement to those who have posted above. I am one of the "betrayed", but I have noticed that most if not all of the "betrayers" who post here DO express regret or remorse over what happened. The fact that they are here speaks volumes.<P>Many of them have been more helpful to me than they will ever know because they help me make sense of what has happened in my life. I love them all for their courage and acquired wisdom.<P>I don't think of them as "creeps". They have done something that has hurt their SO, but they realize that and are more than willing to say so.<P>Deb and new woman said it best, forgiveness is the key and name-calling is counter-productive. You are obviously in great pain and it WILL be helpful for you to stick around. You will find compassion and caring here as well learn more about what happened and why.<P>Just my two cents(actually just a half-cent after inflation)......

Wow, Elixir ... now THERE'S some information I didn't know.<P>FYI, I don't plan on forgetting anytime soon the devastation I subjected my family to ... but with you here to REMIND me ... well it's an enormous help. Now I know that it won't die in the past -- even if my H has forgiven me -- because I'll always have people like you around to shove my face into it.<P>Thank you for contributing to my healing.

Elixar- You really do have alot of pain but I truly believe it is mis-directed and I will pray for you. This board is for everyone, regardless of weather or not they are the betrayer or the betrayed. It's important to get feed back from both sides of a coin in order to understand both sides of the issue. If betrayers were felt unwelcome here who would we get to answer those questions so very deep inside us that we feel we can't ask others? <BR>You are most likely justified in your pain, you have a very real right to it. But this isn't YOUR betrayer on this board, it's an anonymous betrayer that is here for help as much as you are and is willing to help us as well. <BR>I will pray for your anger, I hope you can turn it around into something more constructive. By the way, I was the one betrayed so I really understand your feelings, especially since she was portraying myself as my best friend!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<BR>

Im glad you found this place Elixir. You are reaching out and that is the first step to healing yourself. I believe you have every right to be angry...you are expressing yourself and getting out all those pent up emoitions...You need to do that. <P>My mother used to tell me (when I would have a "life crisis")...."You give yourself permission to be angry....cry, scream, punch a pillow, and feel completely sorry for yourself for the rest of the week, but then you need to heal yourself...you are the only one who can do it."<P>Is it hard? Probably the hardest thing you will ever face in your life. Will you lose control again and again? Definately! But every time you reach out the pain will become less.<P>I hope you stay with "us". We are all in this togather...You can learn alot from both sides..(betrayer/betrayed). The reason I came here is because I needed positive support. Constantly talking bad about spouse , telling my family and freinds what a jerk he was, feeling angry all the time, isolating myself from "everything", all that started to wear me down...I knew that the only way I could go was "up"...I didnt want to be down anymore.<P>Keep coming here...there may be a time when you will be able to help another lost and scared person...that is the best feeling.<P>We will all "lose it" at times, and we come here to "connect" and we come here to feel peace...even if its just for that moment....It feels good to get it out. <P>I know those words felt good for you to write...you have probably been thinking them over and over in your head...it will make you crazy to not express it. You want to hurt the "betrayers" out there with your words...You want them to hurt, you want your SO to feel all the pain and anguish you feel. I completely understand. <P>Now that you have gotten that out of your system ....its time to work on "you".<BR>

Elixir,<BR>I agree with every word you wrote, not only do I agree but in my opinion no one could have put the betrayed feelings I have in words quite as eloquently as you did. I did not feel from you the anger or bitterness that all other posters/replies felt. I felt that you stated the facts. And whether or not the betrayed forgive their spouses still does not change the facts that the adulters made the choices that ripped out the hearts of all their loved ones, children included (don't forget that the betrayer lived with deception and the fear of getting caught as well as gave precious moments that should have been shared with their spouse to the OP while the betrayed was holding the fort down how in the world could they have had what it took to be a good parent and a good spouse with their second life going on?) <BR>I commend the forgiveness that people find in their hearts I think that is wonderful. But that still does not change the truth of Elixir's post. It's not as angry as it is the truth. I for one thank you so much Elixir for sharing your thoughts.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by KWAS (edited September 24, 1999).]

The words are angry but the feeling is the hurt. The intense pain, How could the one you love do this to you. I hope your post is away of getting those thoughts of hurt and anger out of your head, away of expressing yourself. I only hope you didn't say them or let your S know how you feel. Why because I think deep down they already know them. I think that is why some of them leave they can't deal with the thoughts they are having. They feel we should have those same thoughts. If we let them know we do then we are confirming how they feel about themselves and what is the use. It is all over. I know we need a place to let off steam and this BB is a good place, and it may have felt good calling people names. I don't think anyone should call people names( however I have had a few choice names to call OW but I regret that I did so to her face. I am better then that.)But The hurt in your post should be directed to the one who hurt you not to people you don't even know. I know it is easy to lump everyone in to groups but that is fair. Dump your anger and hurt at your S here, direct it at the person who hurt you. Writing it down will help you put thing into perspective, then you can deal with the problems calmly. Anger never accomplishes anything only makes matter worse. <BR>To the others I know it hurts when we are called names but I think we can look deeper. This is a person who has a lot of hurt and anger and Elixir is not really lashing out at the betrayers but at the S. When we read something like this we need to step back take a deep breath realize who it is really directed to and help this person rather then taken offense. I know when my grandchild is angry and hurt he takes it out on me by kicking and screaming, I know he his really angry at me I'm just the person he is closes to at that time so I get it. BUt instead of being angry at him I take him in my arms and hold him tight and give him comfort. He calms down and can then go on with what he was doing. <P>------------------<BR>di<BR>

Thanks for your post SDS you sound very wise.

Elixer<BR>I understand your points. I don't think it is fair to make generalizations, however.<BR>There are a lot of VERY remorseful betrayers on this board. They are here seeking help.<P>There are also some people who seem to come across as "Holier than thou". <BR>I got a lot of insight on this attitude from the Forgiveness Workbook. We did a thread last week on the inferiority/superiority issues.<BR>I can see from this that some people feel inferior so they respond by acting superior. They justify, cry out about being attacked as a result of their own feelings of inferiority. I believe that this is a type of remorse although it doesn't come across that way.<BR>You might be interested in reading that thread. It helped me see things in a different perspective.<p>[This message has been edited by wasstubborn (edited September 24, 1999).]

Maya,<BR>You have come so far from where you started, in fact I hope Elixir reads every one of your posts so he understands the process it takes for a person to bring themselves out of something like this. You do not need to be reminded of what you have done. I hope this is just a case of a very fresh wound spilling out anger and pain. Until we hear the background we will not know. Don't let this be a reason to beat yourself up. Know that you are working hard and doing the right thing.<P>Elixer,<BR>People that are here betrayed and betrayer alike (well most of them anyway) are here to try to make a wrong right. Spend some time, vent and ask questions. There is a lot you can learn from people like Maya that are coming from the other side of the fence.......

Elixir, <P>WOW! That felt good just to read it like I was actually saying it... <BR>Hope you don't mind if I happen to use some of that.<BR>Oh how I have felt that same pain, but never put it down in words. I think I need to do just that, it might just help ease the pain. Thanks.

I believe this: <P>With the measure which one shows mercy and forgiveness to another, it will be shown to them.<P><BR>In the face of the blackest, most disgusting mistakes of my life, still I continue to breathe. It's amazing. <P>BTW, Elixir, I WAS exactly all those things you described.<P>"I've read many "betrayers'" posts & threads, and seen no true remorse! You all feel sorry for yourselves, that is NOT what remorse is!"<P>Please, if you have time would you outline what True remorse looks like. Since I feel it inside, I would like to be able to accurately express it...thanks<P><p>[This message has been edited by rjr #2 (edited September 24, 1999).]

Elixir;<P>I'm sure this "feels good" to people who are suffering the pain of betrayal. Why, I bet this kind of punishing, self-righteous judgement is almost as satisfying as actually having an affair!<P>Elixir, you're as much in "taker" mode here as someone actively involved in an affair. Me, me, me, me... Disrespectful judgements all over the place. What's very interesting to note is that in his years of practice, Dr. Harley puts people who carry the beliefs you espouse at HIGH RISK to having affairs themselves. Because you have such "high and lofty" morals, you perceive yourself as invincible to an affair and will not take proper precautions to prevent one from occuring.<P>If this is all you have to bring to "MarriageBuilders", I suggest that you refrain from posting. It'd be nice to lock you and Carlton in a room toghether...<P>

will try again.<p>[This message has been edited by Tony Corso (edited September 24, 1999).]

I'd just like to thank all of the betrayed who posted on this thread. You all have such character and regard for others' feelings. <P>Elixer, I understand your pain. I purposely read this thread knowing what it was going to be about even though I am one you would call a creep. I don't know what true remorse looks like on paper, but I've seen it in the mirror. I hope someday soon you see it at your house.

Elixir...may I invite you to our threads on forgiveness? The current one is about being judgmental and it is thought provoking. It is Forgiveness WkBk #6...started by me, Faith Hope Love.<P>I am the betrayed and could have many times said much the same thing. I could not continue to hold those thoughts and heal my marriage.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi,<P>I wanted to write the truth about betrayal, and ask one question - "HOW?" I am asking the people who have committed - and are committing - acts of betrayal a question which may seem to some brutal in its directness and honesty. <P>IMHO a big problem with people these days is a refusal to take responsibility for one's actions and choices. I've seen many of the betrayers here justify their behaviour instead of honestly admitting that they were at fault. Don't blame me for writing the truth, don't be angry at me for my honesty. Be angry with those who cannot be truthful, who cannot be honest. I truly do not understand betrayers as they still do what they do when the consequences of their actions/choices are so clear! <P>If it sounded angry, it's because it was: I think that the moment you choose to betray everything that makes us really human (love, honesty, selflessness) you willingly gave up your humanity. Betrayers walk amongst us as monsters disguised as human beings, justifying their every hurtful act as "somebody else's fault," never as the consequence of their choices, of their own willful actions. I am not apologetic about speaking the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts! <P>I see some people angry at everybody but themselves for doing what they have done, and it disgusts me. Don't feel sorry for yourself, don't blame me for how you feel - turn that withering gaze in on yourself. Then I see others and feel hope that betrayers can understand what they have done, that they can walk away from a life of deceit and betrayal and become human once more.<P>I am sorry that so many took offense to my choice of the appellation "creep." IMHO it was a perfectly fitting name. Should I have written "angel," "wonderful person," or "perfect human being" instead? I'm sorry, but if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck - the name fits...!!!<P>If a person can't speak the truth and simply ask a honest, direct question w/o being told that they are the one with the problem, or that they should 'refrain from posting,' then what is this place really for anyway???<P>Nobody given any answers. How does one betray? How can one betray? WHY?

Elixir - Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. I know the pain. I know the hurt. If you're here for help, you will find it. <P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited September 24, 1999).]

Elixir-<P>I don't know if this will answer your question but...<P>When I was 'caught' I ended it immediately having seen what it had done to my OH. I have lived with the "atomic effect" he tried to explain this situation has created. I still live with it intensely even after about 5 months.<P>I don't expect it to go away, but I do hope it subsides.<P>Why? I can only say that the OM made me feel attractive and desirable, which I did feel I was getting at home. I found out afterward that he was just "saying' what needed to be said to get what he wanted. But at the time it sure felt good. I have since learned how to express my displeasure and what makes me happy. He too has learned to do these things.<P>I don't know if this is what you want, but I hope it helps.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>but if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck - the name fits...!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>If your beef is against those who are actively betraying - then yes, they are a creep. If you are refering to those who stumbled, have soulful remorse, asked for forgiveness, then no, they are no longer a creep. Don't hardened your heart against those who have sinned because we ALL sin.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How does one betray? How can one betray? WHY? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The same way one lies, the same way someone steals, and a number of other short commings. Every story is different. Perhaps one has lost hope in the relationship. Who knows. Have you been reading the posts from the betrayers?

Almost all those on this forum who have betrayed are very sorry for what they have done and are struggling with it. A very few have expressed wonder as to what they should do.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

!<P>[This message has been edited by Tony Corso (edited September 24, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Tony Corso (edited September 24, 1999).]

Tony,<BR>I think you hit the nail on the head. I don't know anyone that WANTS to commit adultery. I didn't. And like you said, I thought I had it all under control. We were "just friends". It's amazing how quickly that can change.

Thanks Tony. You hit the nail on the head. I will be praying for you. I was trying to figure out a way to answer this but you did it for me. <P>I worked for a pastor for four years and I too saw the devistation and wondered how people could do that to one another. I even felt smug about it because I knew I would never do such a thing. Guess what? It happened. And it was exactly the way you described it. I was deceived. I believed the lies that Satan kept telling me, "Oh, a little flirting won't hurt. You are only friends. What could happen?" And just like a pig who has fallen into a mudpuddle, it is hard to get out. You keep slipping right back in there.<P>I can only say that I am so grateful that I have a Father in Heaven who forgives and forgets and that I have a husband who has done the same.<P>Thanks again.

K, THANK YOU! Once again you give it to us straight from the hip! Tony, you must have deleted your post before I had a chance to read it. From the response, I wish I had an opportunity to read what you wrote. (Maybe you could email it to me? )<P>Elixir, if you really want to learn and gain knowledge from someone, calling them a creep probably isn't going to get you anywhere. All those questions you've asked is what we're all discussing on this forum day after day. Stay awhile, you'll get your questions answered. And, as I said, if you change your approach, you might even gain more insight you never thought possible. But, in order to learn, you have to be open to it. In order to communicate, then you must be willing to listen without charging back with disrespectful judgements.<P>Stay awhile, give yourself and us a chance to communicate. You may be pleasantly surprised.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Elixir....I want to thank you for your post. I need to read those from time to time. I am<BR>not one of those who have not "given in" ...but I am full aware of the war that<BR>rages within the human soul. I am a pastor and school teacher...and have struggled for<BR>some time with being attracted to another teacher that I work with. I am also married (18<BR>years with 3 beautiful girls)and have never strayed from my marriage. Pastoring for the<BR>past 11 years...I have seen firsthand the devestation that Adultery does to families. I have<BR>often, and I mean often wondered: "How can a man do that to people he loves. Believe it<BR>or not...last year...after hearing of another minister who "fell"...I began to wonder...how<BR>would I do if I was severely tested in this area? Believe me...I understand now how<BR>men (as I am speaking as a man) can do the unspeakable. I am not offereing<BR>excuses...yes...I believe in being responsible for your actions... But let me tell you ...this<BR>battle is the most intense, deceiving, INTOXICATING struggle I have ever dealt with. It<BR>starts so innocently...friendly...social. Then..."something" snags you. Kind of like a drug<BR>or that first drink. You like the feeling...don't think there is any danger...you have it all in<BR>control. And you keep coming back for more. Next...you feel like you have a hook in<BR>your heart...and something is pulling you closer while your feet are on ice...you know<BR>better...logic is screaming at you... but...well... I can't explain it much more. I have never<BR>been addicted to the bottle or drugs...(but have partaken of them before my conversion)I<BR>can tell you...I know what an addict goes through. In my case...my "bottle" has been just<BR>visiting with OW whenever the opportunity arises. They are innocent...she shares with<BR>me how much she enjoys the talks(no inappropriate topics) She is very beautiful in all<BR>regards. She is married as well...with a non-communicative husband. So presto...I start<BR>meeting this need and you begin to sense the draw. I struggle trying to find the brakes...to<BR>stop this dangereous slide...but it is a war in the full sense of the word.It is post like<BR>yours...that bring me back to reality...because your pain is what is not visible when you<BR>are on "this side of the tracks" I don't want to experience that for myself. I cry out to God<BR>for strength. My thoughts for the day...thanks for listening.

Okay, y'all:<P>Did you really think your ole buddy Lone Star would pass up a chance to respond to a post like this one? <P>Elixir, I truly sympathize with your sentiments. When my wife cheated, I just wanted to go ballistic on everyone, especially other cheaters. Why the heck not? They were easy targets.<P>But . . . (and you knew there was a but coming) . . . it doesn't do us any good to go off half cocked like that. If you're gonna go off, go off FULLY cocked! <P>But seriously, what good did that venting do you? Maybe you feel better, but you ticked off all the betrayers here who are HONESTLY and SOULFULLY trying to repair their marriages.<P>Your points are, for the most part, true. Cheating on a spouse is a bad thing. However, VERY few betrayers here are unremorseful as you seem to think.<P>It's been my experience that the betrayers here have a LOT to offer in terms of HOW our spouses could get their thinking so messed up as to allow themselves to break their marriage vows.<P>The fact is, that this kind of thing happens ALOT. I still don't know HOW my wife was able to justify it to herself. She doesn't really know either. It's a testament to the screwiness that invades one's mind in these situations.<P>I urge you to contain your anger a little. Try to LEARN from the betrayers here. Perhaps they can help you learn to understand why YOUR spouse may have cheated.<P>(I'm assuming you have a cheating spouse. Sorry if that's wrong).<P>Anyhoo, please, you can disagree with betrayers on anything you want to. Just be polite and keep the name-calling to a minimum. The name-calling certainly doesn't help your credibility with anyone here. Makes you seem petty and vindictive. We're all here to help, but nobody will want to help if you're mean to them.<P>Just some food for thought.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

Elixir,<P>As the betrayed and betrayer, I offer no excuses, nor reasons... <P>As betrayer, I was selfish. I was wrong. <P>I understand your anger, as I have been betrayed. Often, I asked the same questions. And then one day I understood, because I was in my H's shoes. You don't understand this side, and I pray you never do. <P>I don't ask for your forgiveness, but I do ask for my H's. I come here to find strength in the storm. I also knew what this thread was about by the title, and read it anyway. God only knows why... He must have had his reasons to lead me here.<P>God bless you, and I hope you can find healing in your life.<P>------------------<BR>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<BR>

Hello Elixer,<P>Rats, I'm on this thread late (me too, LS)! It's a good one. And, there have been a lot of interesting perspectives shared. I'll try to add something constructive without just repeating some of the good things that others have already posted.<P>My first thought... there is no single, simple explanation for infidelity. It's different for many of us, and it's usually complicated. Like my fellow posters here I also strongly feel that most betrayers don't go into this capriciously. There are a lot of very good people here.<P>Many times, things happen out of desparation. Years and years ago, my wife was the first to break out of our marriage, feeling just that way. I freely admit some responsibility for her doing so. Even tho' it was not me who "cheated" in the well-used sense of the word. Hey, I just wasn't there for her emotionally. Which is worse? And, in retrospect, I do not blame her. <P>And did she ever pay a price! Wow, I wouldn't wish that on my enemies. The blows to her self-confidence and self-image took YEARS of hard work to overcome. Even though she could hear me saying and see me acting as if I forgave her, she only intellectually accepted it. Deep down inside, she still felt sooooo awful. Fearful...withdrawn.<P>7 years after she finally confessed what I already knew... that she'd had a long-term affair... things still weren't right. Long-story-short out of despair, I had one of my own. Me, Mr. Honor... Mr. Righteous. No one EVER believed that ol' DMac could ever stoop so low. Right. We all have that capability, Elixer. Doesn't mean we're evil.<P>Elixer, your anger is justified. Betrayal is not a pretty thing. But sometimes good people can do very hurtful things. Even for what they honestly think are justifiable reasons.<P>And, no one yet has posted about the impact of things like depression in betrayal. Especially after participating in counselling groups and forums like this, I see so much of it. <BR>For many people, depression is not something that can be wished away. There may be a chemical change in one's body that needs to be remedied. Some people try to self-medicate with drugs, alcohol, etc. Some may withdraw from human contact. Some get defensively angry. And, some may have any number of these symptoms as well as look for solace outside their marriage. <P>Depression played a huge part in my wife's affair. And, yes, it did in mine as well. Not that anti-dep medication is a panacea for the world's ills. But, it is another useful tool.<P>Hope we've given you food for thought. Let me add my welcome along with others who've welcomed you to the Forum.<P>be well,<P>Dmac<P>------------------<BR>That's right, you're not from Texas, that's right you're not from Texas. Texas wants you anyway. Lyle Lovett<P>"When we remember we are all mad, the mysteries of life disappear and life stands explained." Mark Twain, 1898.<P>

Elixir,<BR>You know what.... Your right!!!! By god how could I have been so blind before. You have truely opened my eyes.<P>No, not really. Listen, I can only speak for myself. When I found out that my W was a "creep" , I couldn't believe it. It went againts everything that I believed in and held sacred. I felt the emotional hurt, I felt the pain, I felt it all.... It shook me to the very core of my existance. It took everything I had just to stay alive. I think I have aged 10 years in the last 2 months alone.<P>Now I am the "creep". Yes, I cheated on my W during our seperation and just as bad I cheated on myself. Also a one night stand. And like you, I want to know why.... Why am I a "creep"???? I may never know the answer.... I know that I have and will always be a better person from this whole terrible mess. I have learned a lesson that NO ONE other than me could have taught. <P>People are people, We are humans. Simple as that. <P>creep = human<P>human = mistakes<P>mistakes = forgiveness<P>forgiveness = understanding<P>understanding = closure<P>I would be suprised if any of this makes sense... <P>Creep or not I love who I am and I love who my Wife is. Someday our love will bring us back together..... I hope.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P>

Elixir > I am the OM . . . the one you hate. <P>How do I live with myself ? By accepting the fact that I was born a sinner, and will die a sinner. If my greatest sin is loving a separated woman who has yet divorced, so be it. No excuses . . . just the way it is.<P>Destroying someone's life ? Hardly . . . the issues unresolved in your marriages were there long before I came into the picture. <P>So I remain patient, and accepting the consequences of my "lust" for this woman who is not the same person you married. We all change. So have you. She and I are now compatable. Five or ten years ago, or in the future ? Who knows . . . but for today, we are. And that is just the way it is.<P>The children are scarred from the pre-separation indecisions most couples make while one or the other clings to a sinking ship. Throw stones all you want, but the new mellinium is here, and now. Single parents are increasingly more common, and women no longer "need" a man to make it in this world . . . with, or without children. <BR>I do not want a woman to have as a friend in a long-term relationship who "needs" a man, nor do I care for the companionship of a woman who would leave her husband "for" me. <P>So I wait, and wait, and wait while you do all that you can to keep her as if she has no decision in this matter. Well, guess what. In America today, the traditional family is changing faster than most folks are willing to accept. <P>Excuse me for accepting the things I can not change, but for having the courage to change the things that I can. <P>How do I do it ? With unconditional love . . what a concept . . .

Hello Elixir, and welcome to the forum. You sure came in with a bang!! I appreciate your candid nature. Please join us in discussing judgement, guilt, forgiveness, etc. <BR>Hi Carlton, I am not sure that what you are describing is unconditional love? Here you go again, getting me started on the kids' issues.

Elixir,<P>Welcome to the most confusing forum on this Earth. You come here, and speak the truth, and who jumps on you??? Confirmed, admitted betrayers among others. Every single word you have written has been true in my Life. I too have written almost the same words as yours in the last 9 months..and guess what?? I got exactly the same response. I urge you to stand up for what you know is right. Be careful not to let this "clique" of infidels who are now "good" people, (and let's get this straight, I am NOT saying they are not NOW acting as good people) get you down. I have written here before, and tried to explain how confusing, and horrifying it is, for a hurt, dying, screaming for help from this unholy pain, betrayed spouse, to come here..and find out that the most vocal, the most "popular" people you will meet here,,,are people who were betrayers, liars, sexual addicts, and more. Here this person is, trying to find a way out of this Hell their spouse has thrown them into..they come here searching for help..and they find themselves surrounded by a most vocal, domineering group of admitted betrayers, liars,,,you fill in the rest. And then you must listen to them lecture YOU on how you should respond to your betraying, lying, deceitful, family destroying, spouse, as if they, the ones who betrayed, now have a moral upper hand.<P>Also, I'm sure you have noticed how if you use a word like "creep"..people come out of the woodwork to condemn you..."How dare you call someone a name!..It does no one good to call a betrayer a creeep"...and on and on. Many here act as if a word like "creep" or "infidel" is a disgusting thing to say to a person..my God Elixir...we are talking about a person who has destroyed families,,,many people's lives are now changed forever..You speak of children, this is the most horrible legacy my wife has left all of us. My two wonderful children, now have as a mother, a woman who is capable of living two lives, screwing another man weekly, for 5 years and lying to everyone in my family and all of our friends...this is not a pretty sight to behold. And how is their life going to play itself out? How will they be affected by having a mother who has done this? <P>And as you brought up about the OP....my God, what kind of animal (would creep sound nicer) prey on another man's/woman's spouse? What kind of evil entity is inside them that could let them ignore the children, parents, siblings and all others who they will affect by their predatory behavior??? These people should have a special place in the Devil's Hell, and I hope they do.<P>To close, take the criticism you will get here with a grain of salt, know that there are many who come here often, who feel the same way you do, and who don't have the heart and strength to say it. Look at how you have been attacked for speaking the truth. Do this, watch who responds to my words when they see that I have written,,it will be an education, and if you would like, take note of their names..and read their stories..you will find it enlightening.<P>Take Care of yourself,<BR>Never be afraid to speak the truth,<BR>Stand up for what you know to be True,<P>DG99(H)<p>[This message has been edited by Disgrace99d (edited September 24, 1999).]

Time is no longer for trying to excuse behavior. All of the miserable creeps go back into hiding where we belong, so as not to cause dissention or try to help. Or even, God forbid, to try to make reparations. <P>As DG99 says in some such verbage, "unless you know my situation, do not ever dare to make false presumptions regarding my own scenario"..

DG99:<P><sigh> Here we go again.<P>Nobody here faults you OR Elixir for how you feel. Nothing wrong with YOUR point of view. However, the spirit of this board is the discuss issues intelligently and civilly, NOT to call each other names and be mean to other people.<P>There are some (but not many) betrayers here who are NOT repentent for their behavior. They have no business here. But, for the most part, those who are here RECOGNIZE their mistakes and are trying like heck to make sense of it, to "make it up to" their spouses, and to get on with life. It certainly doesn't help matters to have bitter people calling them "creeps" (or worse). They know what they did was wrong. How many times do y'all have to beat them up about it?<P>If it makes you feel better to call them names and constantly point out what bad people they were, go ahead. I suspect, however, that most of the long-timers here will just tune you out. Unfortunately, there are so many new faces every day, you're bound to keep getting the outraged reactions you seem to crave.<P>I wish you could be less bitter, because I find a lot of interesting material in your posts. The "us against the world" attitude makes it hard to swallow, though.<P>Just a late night ramble.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

Elixir:<P>Actually, sincere truth speakers and truth seekers do not generally arouse the collective ire of this forum. Neither do betrayers or betrayed per se. It's usually the perceived attitude of the poster that induces others to comment negatively.<P>If you post here as a betrayed, and right out of the gate you are insulting and making slanderous generalizations about groups of people, and cloaking it as a quest for truth, don't be surprised if you are called on it.<P>By the same token, if you post here as one trying to justify an affair, and smugly belittling those who are personally or morally opposed, be prepared to weather the onslaught.<P>And lastly, if you come here high on your pedestal, declaring yourself above all this, and condemning those who have succumbed, you may just get pity. Because those who have fallen know just how unstable pedestals can be.<BR>

Elixir<P>There is truth in your words. Unfortunately all the "creeps" that your anger is directed to do not post on this board. They have gone on with their lives oblivious to the carnage they have wrought.<P>Before I found this board I felt exactly the same. But I have come to realise how my wife's affair came about and my part in getting her to that situation. Yes it was her decision, not mine. I have also realised that but for circumstance and opportunity I was and still am vulnerable to an affair. <P>Thanks to the betrayers who share on this board I can see their pain too. Thanks to the betrayed I can learn to forgive regardless of the outcome. Thanks to all I believe I will never betray my loved ones.<P>There are successes and failures, a lot of hard work, a lot of emotional rollercoasters in this part of the world. There are a lot of betrayed and betrayers who each have regrets for what has happened, but I only see good people trying to help one another through an almost impossible time in their lives. <P>Creeps? They must have their own board somewhere else.<P>

Elixir and Disgracee99d,<P>I think you tow are entitled to your feelings and opinions for sure. But I just had a couple of questions for the both of you. Being that this is a site for building marriages, how do you propose that your anger will help you or any of the rest of us rebuild our marriages? Also, what would you like the betrayers on this forum (or your spouses) to do? Would you like them to be here for you to beat up on when you want to, or would you like to see them grovel, or would you like them to be miserable for the rest of their lives? What is it that you want?<P>If all you want is the opportunity to vent, you have that here. But like a couple others said, be prepared to be met with the same from people who disagree. That's all part of life. Take a look. The unremorseful betrayers wouldn't be posting here. They have left their spouses or are continuing to cheat. They are on the Philanderer's Forum. You could have a field day there.<P>I just think that what you're looking for, you're not going to find here. We are people trying our best to HELP each other. Take care.

Hello Elixer, et al,<P>Wow, was cl right. You sure did make a splash here with your first post. <P>For sure you hit a very sensitive, emotion-fraught nerve. And, I'd bet most of us here would be willing to admit we have to deal with our own personal anger, disappointment, guilt, despair, and any combination of these and other strong emotions.<P>You are right to seek your own personal brand of truth. All of us need to understand why things happened the way they did for us.<P>As for the betrayers here, basically all of us are here to work hard at making things better. It's assumed in the Forum name: Marriage Builders. It's also assumed that part of the process of making things better is flushing through anger.<P>There's room for lots of opinions here. Some controversial. Sometimes controversy can be constructive. As your first topic here, you've chosen one which has been a controversy for a long time. It's been one which I've certainly been involved with. And I find myself on opposite sides to D99.<P>Simply, here it is. I do not believe that the people in this Forum who are betrayers are "EVIL!!!!". <P>Betrayal is an awful thing. It is a hurtful thing. It can be so damaging. But, I've also seen that in some cases the worst victim of the situation can be not the betrayed, but the betrayer. It's the betrayer who has to live with the responsibility and consequences of their choices.<P>If I could offer you one piece of advice it would be this: try your hardest to forgive. If your marriage has a chance to work, you must forgive your wife. She must also forgive herself. Through mutual acceptance will you rebuild your marriage. It's the only way.<P>Anger is natural, anger is human. Sometimes anger can be constructive. Over the long term, anger becomes destructive. And, D99, if you are reading, please consider it. Your family's future will never be as bright as it could be if you do not give up your anger.

I believe I have to agree with Elixir's concept here, although I do agree with others that calling them creeps won't help. Each person's case is different, but in my case I believe my H was the one at fault. I didn't drag him by the arm and throw him into the OW's bed. He went there upon his own free will, even if he was inebrietated, fully knowing the pain and heartache he would cause me, as well as her husband. I was always "there" for him, treated him with love and kindness, cared for his every need, and truly loved him. But he did it anyway. He chose that path for himself, I did not choose that for him. What I feel that I was at fault for in our situation, was for letting him walk all over me for so many years.

I may FEEL or may have felt the same way as elixer...and if that's her final feeling, then she is free to leave the marriage and move on with her own life.<P>If you recommit to the marriage, however, you will never recover a healthy relationship if you maintain this attitude.<P>It's OK to feel what you feel, but to commit to your journey of forgiveness and healing which is long, hard and very personal.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Wow...this one really dragged a lot of the old-timers out of the woodwork...hello to old friends K, Doug, LoneStar, Maya, rjr & all <P>Elixer said the betrayer "willingly gives up their humanity". Actually, this is inaccurate. The betrayer *ignorantly*, *blindly*, *naively* gives up their humanity. Anyone who believes infidelity is a well-thought-out decision doesn't understand the nature of it. I think we can all agree it is irrational in every way. My head was certainly in a fog. AT THE TIME, it made sense to me. <P>Someone also used the phrase that a betrayer has lost all hope in their marriage. That is the best nutshell desciption of how an affair can happen that I have ever read. The scariest part? Most of the time, the betrayer-to-be is not even aware that this has happened. Read TMan's post again to get a feeling for the insidious nature of affairs.<P>The reasons for this loss of hope are endless: depression (which my H DMac and I both - unknowingly - suffered with); general breakdown of marital communication; lack of attention & nurturing paid to the marriage (AND the spouse!) - everyone on here has their own unique combination of factors that eventually led to the disasterous meltdown of their marriage.<P>Did I behave in "creepy", evil ways during my affair? You betcha. Am I proud of what I did? Absolutely not. Do I believe I was justified in doing it? Absolutely not.<P>But I was hurting, I was dumb, I was lonely, I was in despair, I was ignorant of how to fix what was wrong with my marriage, I was ignorant that I COULD even fix what was wrong with my marriage! I had lost hope. In other words, I was human. And I made some bad choices that soon snowballed into humongous, life-altering bad choices. As D99 or Elixer phrased it, "walking away from a life of deceit and betrayal and becoming human again" was the most painful journey I have ever made. There is no pain like that of coming to realize you have not only betrayed your beloved and your children, but *yourself* and everything you believe in too. You need to rebuild yourself, your marriage, your whole life, from the boots up.<P>Let me leave you with some food for thought. DuncanMac and I are most definitely a "success story". So are K and his wife (and Elixer, if you want to read a lulu of a story, read K's). So are LoneStar & Petunia, rjr & her H, new woman & her H, Maya & her H. And others here too numerous to mention. <P>What do we all have in common? We have all, betrayed and betrayer alike, tried very hard to *understand* what went wrong in ourselves and in our marriages; to own up to our own parts in the breakdown, and to take corrective action. This *is*, to me, "taking responsibility" for my actions. But I want to make very clear that I was INCAPABLE of doing this before & during my affair, as I suspect most betrayers are. It has taken me a very long time to come to a full understanding of the whole mess.<P>Also, none of us has refused to forgive our spouse for their transgressions. None of us has chosen to view our spouse as evil, depraved, horrible. Each of us has decided, quite simply, that life is too short to remain mired in acrimonious blame and pain forever. We have decided to move on. We are enjoying the hard-won fruits of what have become wonderful marriages; marriages with a depth and trust and closeness we could not even imagine before. At first, I was so afraid it might dissipate - could I trust it?? - but it just gets better and better .<P>The alternative is to condemn yourself to the endless agony that D99 seems to be in. I feel for his obvious pain; but I can't help feeling insulted and angry when he periodically shows up to belittle as misguided morons those of us who refuse to demonize ourselves or our wayward spouses, and instead have chosen to understand and accept our humanity, forgive, and move on (but, as LoneStar said, most of the old-timers have learned to tune him out).<P>Elixer, I hope your pain is just so new & raw that you needed to vent, and that is fine. Because you are at a fork in the road and have a choice to make about what course your life will take. Victim-mentality is useless in life. Don't wallow in it. Your happiness is up to you.<P> <P><P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

The only creep here is an unrepetent OM who chooses to die as a sinner rather than repent. Creep is a nick name for another name that begins with "C".<p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited September 25, 1999).]

tnt - won't do any good (unfortunately)... too stuck on his own profound wonderfulness. Good try, though!

Hi Elixer,<P>More thoughts to share... you've really hit a good one here!<P>Is betrayal a "human" trait? Absolutely. Almost by definition, one has to have some sort of trusting relationship to betray.<P>I was raised with the encouragement to look for the good in all things, all people. In almost 45 years, I've seen nothing which would deter me from that philosophy. <P>Oh, I've seen plenty of awful behavior mixed in with lots of good. I've seen deception. I've seen people hurt each other physically and emotionally with purpose, with malice. I've had my little share of disappointments too. Nothing life-threatening, thankfully but I've had some moments of angst.<P>When it comes to betrayal in marriage, from my experience, an "act" of betrayal (ie: sexual infidelity) is a unilateral decsion. Most of the time, it is hidden from the spouse. But, it does not happen in a vacuum. In most of my experiences, lived or observed, it is just the next step in a process. It's the deterioration of a relationship for which BOTH are responsible.<P>The lying, the deception, the hurt that follows this act of betrayal are all sad. There's plenty of cause for anger in them. But, they are unmistakeable human.<P>I choose not to judge people because they step out of their marriage. Although I do full-well know that this causes tremendous damage to self-image and the relationship, I can't bring myself to see most who make this choice as evil people. Ironically, there are even times when the act of betrayal can be constructive. It forces a relationship into perspective. I am a living example of how this can happen. Others are as well.<P>You do ask some good questions. And, they need to be asked. When you ask "WHY?"<BR>I believe you sincerely want to understand.<P>You've seen my wife, Suse, post. Now I'll try to help you see my side of our situation. Why did I betray? Because I'd lost hope that I very deep, deep need I had for intimacy and connection would never be met. I just couldn't take it any more. I was tired, depressed, and tried to find solace with someone else. There was a part of me I felt would never be whole.<P>At the time of this outside search for intimacy, I had NO THOUGHT of abandoning my marriage or my children. I made a conscious choice to betray. <P>Can you imagine the internal conflict I went thru before taking that step? My wife is a good woman. We had a 20+ year relationship. We'd been thru thick and thin. She'd had an affair of her own, we'd worked thru it, and all was forgiven. We have two sons whom I adore and care for. <P>My word has always been good. That's how I was raised. With honor. I come from a culture which respects honor above all things. And, yes, I dishonored myself. While in the midst of it all, I had to live with that. And, I hoped no one would ever know.<P>Well, I couldn't handle it all. When I finally cratered, I told Suse. As you can surely imagine, this confession was agony. But something happened, eventually. Suse lifted me up. She gave me strength. She opened up to me in ways she never had. <P>Elixer, this was a miracle. This SURELY was something I'd never imagined possible. I'm so very lucky.<P>My conclusion: affairs can happen to otherwise good people. It is part of our humanity. I've yet to meet the perfect human. <P>Hope this helps.<BR>

I shoulda read Airheart's thread first. <p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited September 25, 1999).]

Elixir,<BR> Gosh, I recognize the pain in your post. Sounds exactly like I felt 19 months ago when I discovered my H's affair only my posts weren't quite as frank and eloquent. I was so filled with rage, anger and dispair that I really felt as though I was losing it. And along came my friends,,D99's(H)(W). I don't know if I could have made it to the point I'm at today if I hadn't had someone to share this terrible pain with, someone that really understood. Yes, there were many others that helped lift my spirits, HGB, Almost Happy and others but the D99's allowed me to share this anger and let me know I was not alone with those feelings. Please listen closely to what they have to say. The D99's are making it. Yes, they still have pain (so do I and anyone else that has been through this mess) but they are making it. <BR> D99's(H)(W),,,so good to hear from you. I've missed you on this forum and I'm glad to see you again.Your insight and input are still needed. Just remember how valuable you are, if you can help one more person as much as you helped me. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I've tried to email you in the past but apparently lost your correct address. If you still have mine,,email me. My H and I are 19 months into rebuilding and doing better than I could have ever hoped. Here's hoping everything has been good for the two of you.

Elixir-<P>Not so long ago I was where you are. I just never really said it like that. Partly because I was taught that sweeping generalizations usually erode your credibility. A cheater hurts those who love them, but most of all they hurt themselves. As you so wisely said they throw away their humanity. This is true.<P>My H cheated and lied and devastated me. I decided I wanted to remain in this marriage and I came here to learn and build. And I am doing just that. <P>It has been 4 months and 4 days since I confronted my husband and he renounced the OW. It hasn't been easy, but he admitted his seldishness and his responsibility. And with the help of God and this board I have forgiven him.<P>I still cry at night from time to time. I still check on him from time to time. Mostly out of self-preservation. Fortuantely for us my checking has proved him truthful. So I use it to build on.<P>Welcome to our group of people in various stages of pain. You are like I was angry AND HURT. Time and God can heal you if you want to be healed.<P>Most of those here are caring recovering people, who will help you if you listen with love and honesty. Some are not, but you can ignore them.<P>SHA, Duncan, Maya, Lone and all the others who just came out of the woodwork so nice to see you. We have missed you here.<P>God bless you Elixer

ok, thats it.... I absolutely disagree with the instigators. They seem to paint the betrayers as the outspoken voice on this forum. What a bunch of horse pucky.... When I first came here I was bleeding bad... Some of you remember the first day I was here. If it weren't for those who responded to me, both betrayers and the betrayed, I may never have gotten as far as I did. <P>So I say to you the ones who seem to throw sticks and stones, Get over it. Stop yelling so much and listen to what others have to say.... You might actually learn something. <P>------------------<BR>Rutger......One day at a time.<P>

Nerlycrzy,<BR>Hello to you too, nice to know you are still around also. We'll have to exchange mail addresses again, if you have lost ours. <BR>Thanks as always, for standing up and being counted without fear.<P>DG99(H)<P>Suse:<BR>"Endless agony DG99 seems to be in"???? I am only 10 months since Discovery....under what calendar does that mean "ENDLESS"????<P>Curious....to know your answer...<P>

Elixer......there is no such thing as truth only our perceptions of what truth is...and we only react to things within ourselves that we dont like about ourselves....take a good look in the mirror..<P>Read the post 'Can It Ever Be The Same' by F A<P>There are some posts in there by a self proclaimed betrayer...that may help you to understand what this forum is all about...<P>[This message has been edited by cossie (edited September 26, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by cossie (edited September 26, 1999).]

This one's for D99 but I felt it belongs in this same thread...<P>You claim to seek the truth? You claim to want people to stand up for what is right? Well, here's a little outspokeness on what I know is true and right: You're one angry, mean, passive-aggressive, punishing individual who wants to wrap himself in in the mantle of self-righteousness. It gets old.<P>Bluntly, if you would ever listen to any of the advice people offer you here it's this: get over it, man.<P>You're "only" 10 months past discovery. Well I really empathize with ya, buddy. Pardon my sarcasm. Your posts sometimes seem to imply than NO ONE could EVER know your PAIN. No one's agony could be like yours. Pretty dang selfish of ya.<P>Listen, you have a wife who's trying to make the best of what you've got there. You're so freakin' lucky compared to some of the others in our group. Is your wife committed to your marriage? Is she remorseful? Is she trying to make it better? Does she love you? From what you've posted (and what SHE's posted!), she's all of those things. Lawdy, that's some awesome woman, D99. I'm serious!<P>I, for one, am tired of hearing your whining. My wife's affair went on for 6 years. Nyahhh, nyahhh, beat ya. I got OVER it! I love the stuffings out of her and want to show her every day! Suse found out about my affair "only" 11 months ago. She got OVER it! Heck, her loving approach from DAY 1 towards me worked miracles. <P>You claim to respect people who speak their mind. Well, respect this: if your longterm goal is to put that family and marriage of yours back together... GET OVER IT!

WAy to go Mac!<P>I am 7 months past first suspicion and 4 months past admission and well on our way to building a new and better marriage.<P>Letting go of the pain and forgiving was the best thing I ever did for me or our marriage. <P>D99, please let go of the pain that is eating you up from the inside out. Move on either by frogiving or walking out on your marriage. You will be better for it.<P>Some people , however, like to wallow in misery. Is that you? If so I feel very sorry for you.<P>God bless

D99, (and Elixir too)<P>Please read my thread, "My H is not a creep," and feel free to email me if you still have my address.<P>God Bless.<P>------------------<BR>No one said this (life) was going to be easy.<P><BR>

DuncanMac,<BR>I am not asking for your opinions on Anything. If your wife had an affair for 6 years, and you "Got over it"..good for you. <P>You don't know what my Life is like, so please refrain from telling me "how I am"...and anything else about my life. I don't pretend to know what your life is like, and never would "tell" you how it is. If you feel it is wrong for me to have ANGER after what has happened in my Life, then that is your opinion, but I am not asking for your opinion. It is simple to me.<P>Just because it wasn't such a big deal for your wife to have sex with another man for 6 years, doesn't mean it isn't a Life changing event for ME. Please make your way through your life the best you can. Let me make my on way, and I give you my word not to try to tell you how to live your life. Please do the same for me....Now get on with your Line of how <BR>"affairs are so great for your marriage, and how glad you are that it happened, and how good your marriage is now." If this is the way it is for you....I'm happy.<P>Personally, I doubt if it is that way for most people..<P>DG99(H)

D99...<P>When you post on an open forum such as this and you let fly with rancid comments, I figure it's open season for all who want to challenge them.<P>Fair's fair, right?<P>And, as for knowing your life/knowing my life... I figure what we see is what we get. You've done a masterful job presenting your personality here of the grieving-wronged- -soooooo righteous Moral Man.<P>Take or leave my suggestion, it's up to you as it is for all who are presented with advice. <P>You claim to want the truth. Well, this is my opinion of your reality. Take it or no.<P>I'm saying from my experience your anger's gonna eat you up. You don't want to accept that variant of "reality"? I'm suggesting that you may be living as bad a fantasy as anyone who has been a betrayer. <P>You're gonna hurt someone someday, man. I just hope it's no one I know.

D99 - to answer your question in response to my use of the phrase "D99's endless agony": <P>I don't believe, and never have, that anyone should 'be over' an affair within any specific timetable. Obviously, much depends on the circumstances of the affair and its discovery, as well as the personalities involved. No one here would deny that yours was a particularly difficult situation. So was K's. And so was ours. But the past can't be re-written. It *can* be learned from. It can be refused permission to poison the future. We don't have a choice about the past. We do have a choice about the future.<P>What distresses me in your case is that I haven't seen evidence of one iota of progress for you in all the months we've shared this board. You appear to be still in the initial disbelief, profound rage, and injured pride that we all feel upon learning of a spouse's betrayal. You're seemingly still at Day One (or at least, Month One). <P>Your rage slops over onto anyone who: 1. is/was a Betrayer; 2. doesn't despise all betrayers with the same zeal as you do; 3. has managed to forgive and trust a spouse who betrayed; 4. is a Betrayer who has forgiven themselves (horrors!), despite the fact that this is often an agonizing and years-long process; 5. has the audacity to try to help you by suggesting there might be another way to proceed...as this one doesn't appear to be doing much for you, or your wife, or your kids. <P>At some point, there is a need to assess the Big Picture: "Where do we go next? What kind of marriage do I *want* to have? What kind of family do I *want* for myself and my children? What kind of lessons do I want them to learn from this? What kind of LIFE do I want to have?" <P>And finally - "What do I have to do to get there? - because I am willing to do whatever it takes, including setting aside my hurt and my injured pride, to rebuild the life I want. I am willing to stop punishing my spouse for making terrible mistakes. I am willing to learn, with my spouse, what went wrong in our lives, and fix it."<P>So in my case, the answers were: "Where we go next is to get whatever help we need to get through this. What I want is *this* marriage, to *this* person, a marriage that is the best it can possibly be. I want an intact, functional, happy, 2-parent family for my kids (original parents, please ). <P>"I want my kids to learn that when life throws a pile of **** at you and knocks you down, you get back up, clean it off, and deal tenaciously with the problem until it is solved. I want my kids to learn that you don't throw in the towel when things get rough in a marriage, that it is possible to work through the most difficult situations, to forgive transgressions large and small, and to re-find true joy in life. That indeed, you can & must *create* joy in your life. I want to live my life with joy." <P>I would never dare to tell you how to run your life, D99 - *clearly* you know what's right for you - but for what it's worth to others out there who might be struggling with these questions - these answers are what worked for me.<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by suse (edited September 26, 1999).]

D99-<BR>you know 6 months ago when I found this spot you were spouting the same vituperative poison as you are today.<P>Many have tried to offer you a helping hand via advice and my experience is you have generally hit out at them next. IMO when you post on a public forum such as this yu are asking for the others to offer comfort and advice. You accept neither. <P>You strike me as a hatefiled self-righteous person. No room for God, or love or forgiveness. Frankly, I feel sorry for you. You will most likely never know happiness or true love. And you can't love any one else when you hate yourself so much. The bible says so.<P>I will keep praying for you. God bless

Dreamer707,<BR>Vituperative ??? That is a very big word....Poison???? That is a very simple word. Spouting??? That sounds like a fountain to me.....Maybe one giving out <BR>Truth....<P>Remember this, before you get all "aroused" in many ways over me....I did NOT call anyone a creep. What was the guy's name who did?? I don't think you or others here recall..but you do remember me and my name....sad my friend.....sad...."when you HATE YOURSELF SO MUCH"??? Where did you get that??? My friend you know nothing about me..I know nothing about you..what have I said about you, that has no basis in Truth? Nothing is the answer...your leap beyond logic to name calling is breath taking....but take heart..you will be wrapped in the cloth of the brethren here,,who condemn only those, who don't agree with them..this is supposed to be a place for people who are trying to survive betrayal. (granted this is the "Marrige Builders Forum)....<BR> Mostly it seems like a forum for born again betrayers/infidels to expound on how good they are..and how much their infidelity has Enriched their marriage....I disagree...Infidelity is the most harmful act anyone can bring into a marriage...<P>Read the words..then judge my friend. I don't know you..and even if someone has told me that you are a hateful, dishonest, lover of indecent acts...I would not believe them..as there is no proof..think about it.<P><BR>I believe your mom must have told you..that you should not jump on the most popular bandwagon going around..make up your own mind..in this anonymous forum..there are NO points for going along with the "stars" here...please remember that.<P>Good Luck,<BR>Thanks for your Love,Caring, and Christian understanding.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Disgrace99d (edited September 27, 1999).]

Howdy,<P>I guess I probably should "tell my story" as it seems everybody is making their own assumptions about me - most of them wrong.<P>I am female and live by a couple of very simple philosophies: "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you," and "Do unto yourself as you do unto others." Basically, always treat others as good as you'd like to be treated, and always treat yourself as good as you treat others. So you I end up treating everybody - including myself - pretty good. I think it's a pretty fair way to live life. <P>I have been married for 7.5 years. We fell in love at first sight - I know it sounds cheesy, but it's true, and were married very shortly after. Everything was great for approx. 5 years - and then he began acting oddly. Unknown to me he was suffering a massive financial crisis and was trying to hide it from me so as not to worry me. I do have my own work, which would have sufficed to at the very least pay the bills, but wouldn't have kept us in the lucrative lifestyle we were accustomed to. My H then decided to committ a series of white-collar crimes, during which time he was unfaithful with a very young and insecure woman he met at a friend's bachelor party (I met her and felt sorry for her, as she was deceived as much as I - she had no idea I even existed, or what he was doing, or even who he really was). H was a VERY changed man for about a year - I didn't even recognize him, barely saw him (he was always away on "business trips"), and I KNEW something - EVERYTHING - was very wrong. I strongly suspected that there were problems with his finances, and I was almost certain he was cheating on me - H is an EXCEPTIONALLY bad liar, but I never had any solid proof (he was at least careful to hide evidence). H eventually got caught, and I found out from the police about ALL his activities - about 16 months now since then. H was in jail for 12 of those 16 months.<P>Did I divorce my H? NO. Do I hate my H? NO. Do I throw the subject in my H's face, or even remind him of it? NO. In fact, after some very intense talks, and slowly having increased contact with each other after he was released, we regained trust and respect for each other that we had forgotten to show one another for a long time. I don't hate my H as he is now - in fact I love, trust, and respect him. I was initially very angry with my H for everything he did, but I never acted vengefully or trashed him - in fact I did my best to help him through his crisis and to crawl out of the hole he'd dug himself into. I bear him no resentment now - he isn't the same person today. However I have no respect for the creep he CHOSE to become before, and neither does he. <P>Your SO may not be a creep now - but they may have been before. So don't think that the appellation sticks with you forever - after all, each and every one of us has told a lie at one point or another in our lives ("Why yes, that dress DOES look good on you," or "No, I didn't eat the last chocolate-chip cookie."), does that make us all liars forever? No, I believe that people are capable of change - downward, sideways, and upward. One pattern of behaviour does not pidgeon-hole a person as something forever - but their current behaviour can label them. If you are a betrayer now, or were a betrayer and cannot accept that you are at fault for you own behaviour (and that it was nobody else's fault that you betrayed), then you are a creep IMHO. It is your own behaviour that has labelled you, not me. Don't shoot the messenger for speaking the truth.<P>I am not angry or resentful with the things that are going on in my life. I have accepted what has happened and we have moved on, better than ever in fact - more honest, open, trusting, and loving. I know that there are those that will question this but this is the honest truth.<P>My post was angry, and not at what has happened in my life, but at those who are currently destroying their own lives, and the lives of those around them. As one who has seen her life and the life of those I love most disintegrate in the most painful of ways, I cannot understand why anybody would ever willingly subject themselves or anybody else to such an agony. I am angry at those so selfish not to see the destruction their selfish acts will wreak, angry at those who will not admit to their fault - for without honest acceptance of their own actions how can they ever move on in life? I firmly believe if you do not take responsibility for your actions you will constantly walk around in a state of self-deceit, and never be cured of whatever might have caused you trouble. <P>I want those that have betrayed to recognize their fault, to accept it without trying to lay blame on anybody else (after all, nobody held a gun to your head), and only from there can you heal and move on with a life that involves your SO. I want those who are betraying (betrayers, OP) to look at themselves in the mirror and think - WHY AM I DOING THIS?

D99-<P>My "leap of logic" happened only in your mind. I never called you a name. <P>I do not know you, but I do know the things you put on this board both now and in the past and your messages are filled with poison. You don't remember me because before you left the forum I was a very small voice. One you probably didn't notice. Your signature style of writing,now and then, shows no change. I was surprised that your attack was so long in coming. <P>I expected it. You usually attack anyone who offers you any comment that doesn't reflect your own thoughts. I will try to refrain from using "big words" with you. I am reasonably sure that most people who post here can understand my analogy without your breakdown. And you do spout poison,IMHO. <P>I continue to pray for you to heal. For you to find peace and forgiveness.<P>God bless

To All (especially Suse, DMac and Dreamer):<P>Why give D99 a platform? He's not going to listen to you now. He hasn't listened EVER. We all have to learn how to deal with this in our own way. If D99 wants to be bitter, let him. He's only hurting his OWN life.<P>Me, I prefer to focus on the good stuff. Petunia and I are only 6 months into recovery, but I feel better about us EVERY day. Suse, you were right, there's no time table. It may take D99 years to realize what's been going on. Let him take it at his own pace. Be there to support the targets of his venom, but turn a deaf ear to him. It's gettin' ya nothing but frustration.<P>----------<P>Elixir:<P>Thanks for sharing your story. I guessed that your H had cheated, but the criminal activity and the financial situation make it ALOT harder to handle the whole thing. Sounds to me like you've approached your marriage with the right attitude.<P>I like your philosophy of "Do unto others . . ." It's a very GODLY way to live. I agree with you that betrayers, while they are betraying, are not acting in accordance with that philosophy. Everything you have said is very true. However, I would like to again state that I have met VERY few betrayers here at the MB Forums that I would call "creeps." Most of them are very intent on trying to get past their mistakes. Quite simply, they didn't think straight when they betrayed. They acted "creepy," but are now sincerely trying to rectify the situation.<P>I'm glad you came here. Hopefully, we can help you put your H's betrayal in perspective. While none of us are "glad" that our spouse had an affair, many of us recognize that it's not the end of the world. We CAN go on with life. We CAN learn to love and trust our spouse again. We simply have to decide to DO it. It doesn't happen right away. I've been working at it for 6 months, and I still have days where I wonder why I try. I still have days when I wonder what my W is doing and who she's with and whether she may be cheating again. However, I have learned that I can get past those days by showing her love and affection, and by trying to be trusting, and by adhering to the MarriageBuilders policy of Honesty.<P>It CAN be good again, but it takes time, effort, and an enormous amount of love. Letting go of the anger is the first big step. It won't be easy, but you can do it. Do you want to be here 11 months from now with the same bitterness that DG99 seems to have? I don't. I want to have a good marriage. <P>Good luck with your recovery.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

It was such a nice bulletin board.<P>Oh well, back to the Dilbert site.<BR>

Elixir:<BR>Those of us who are remorseful at first are probably sorry we got caught-then those of us who continue to be sorry and admit our faults stay on this site for emotional help and try to better ourselves first before we can be of any help to anyone else. I'm here because i know i f----- up and got caught. i had to make a decision, keep on the paath i was, or do what i knew was right, admit i had an addiction, get professional help and change myself first. the best thing you could do was post your thoughts (rage) here and get some feedback. get it all out, the probably 20 years or anger you have built up inside, look at yourself first, change yourself with Gods help and direction, then try to help other people. thanks for posting

Elixir,<BR>Sounds to me as though you have a real good handle on rebuilding your marriage and are on your way. Apparently you have had many discussions with your H about what happened, understand the dynamics of what was going on and have decided to regroup and move on. Not an easy job, is it?<BR>However, like most of us, there are times when you look at the person you love or hear a story about some other couple and still wonder,,how? And why? <BR>My H and I are 19 months into the recovery of our marriage. Sometimes, in the quiet of the night while he is sleeping, I look over at him lying next to me. This face that, after 30 years, I know so well. Every line, crease, little nick or scar, and wonder "How? Didn't you have second thoughts, was there a moment that you thought of me, felt sad, guilty, thought I'd better get outta here? Why or why, didn't you stop yourself?"<BR> It's still hard to believe. But those are only my thoughts. I have voiced them in the past and no longer attempt to do so since there are no satisfactory answers. I know the theory of "right place, right time,,anyone could," but I have a hard time believing that. And referring to him in the past as a "creep?" I don't think I ever referred to him in such nice, acceptable terms. Mine were much worse at that time. We are also doing good now. And I no longer bring up the past daily, weekly or even monthy. Like you and your H, it's a decision that had to be made.,, split up or regroup, rebuild and move on. I'm glad to hear you and your H are rebuilding your relationship. The best of luck to you and your H,,,please, continue to post. <P>D99's,,,Nerlycrzy@aol.com,,,looking forward to hearing from you again......

DG99 & Elixir<BR>Thank You both. I couldn't have said it better myself.<BR>The truth hurts!!!

suzy Q,<P>I don't think its the truth that hurts at all. It's the lies, the deceit, the denial, the self-righteous attitudes, the inability to forgive, and so on. The truth heals, and that's why those of us who have come clean are here- in order to rebuild.

Elixir,<P>Thank you for sharing your whole story. There is very little I could possibly disagree with now we see exactly where you stand.<P>You have strong convictions and you live by them. By forgiving your H of some pretty aweful stuff you shown character in your convictions by living them out in the most difficult situation.<P>Welcome<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Elixir and others:<P>I'll agree that some betrayers are essentially "creeps" (as you describe that term); however most are not. They are simply people who fall into things they are usually too week to get out of gracefully. One thing I think you should understand is that none of this is done alone. Betrayers don't just go out looking to hurt there SO. They sometimes have help from their SO through intolerance and failure to understand and meet their most important needs. <P>My W couldn't and still can't understand why I feel my emotional needs aren't being met. She has a need for support and companionship and mutual assistance and I try to provide for all of that. I mention that I need the feeling of intimacy through sex and she could care less. It's not one of her needs. However, she feel that my needs include keeping a clean home, having my shirts ironed, feeding the pets, having nice dinners and lots of other "homey" things so she busts her butt to do all of that all the time and she thinks she's doing "good". I've told her time and time again that most of that stuff is fine, but I would rather have a great sex life and eat hotdogs. Besides I can clean a house and I can iron my own shirts too. I can't make love with out her. So when I start spending time with OW (not sexually, mind you) but just being friendly and getting those little pats on the head that make a guy feel like a "guy", then all H*** breaks loose. "How could you even think about spending time with that OW, after all I have done for you? etc... <P>Yes, their are creeps among us but they are on both ends of the spectrum. They are, as you say, the selfish ones who only think of themselves and their needs. Problem is that those selfish ones don't always betray their spouses with an affair, they sometimes lead there spouses into an affair by pushing them out of their lives and their marriages.<P>I've been married twice. The first time I was a real creep and I admit it. So was my first wife. The best thing we could have done, we did. We got as far from one another as we could.<P>My second marriage has lasted well over twenty years. No cheating or infidelity yet (if having sex is a prerequisite), but there have been other ways of moving apart and my W treats me as if I did, in fact, have an affair. She can't forgive me because she thinks I "thought" about it and that's enough. So for that reason our sex life dissapeared several years ago and she somehow feels justified in witholding affection and at the same time beleives she can demand my fidelity because, after all, we are married. I guess creeps come in all forms.<P>Maybe someone out there can shed some light and give me some insight on how to reconcile this situation. <P>By the way, this is just a one sided story, I know. My W must have a great deal of emotional turmoil causing her to behave the way she does so I am not faulting her completely. However, she can't admit that something is wrong and I can and do freely admit that I'm at the end of my rope.<P>Any opinions or advise. <P>Thanks,<BR>Flip

I've got to ask the same question - Why? <BR>Why not just get out of the relationship and go with the OP and not destroy people? Why continue to let your H/W live a lie? What about those like my H who cheats again and again and again, then when caught, well, oh yes, now he's very sorry, and wants to work on our marriage - now - yet continues to lie. I could never do that and I don't and never will understand it. I made a committment, a promise, a covenant, and although I have plenty of cause to go find someone else (my H certainly has not met my emotional needs, so why not go find an OP, an "addiction"?), I do not, nor do I have any desire to. We all make promises and we make a CHOICE to keep them or not. The "betrayers" freely choose to break promises and vows - FREELY CHOOSE. They can just as easily freely choose to not. What hurts is in making that choice, they make choices for the "betrayed". How arrogant, to choose to destroy my life or children's life. No one has that right, to choose for me, yet the "betrayers" do it every day. And then they are sorry. So very sorry when their chosen life of betrayal falls. And they take how many other people with them. Again, what complete arrogance. What total self-centeredness. Like I said, I don't and never will understand it. When I made a promise, a vow, to God and my H, I did it FREELY and with full knowledge and complete intent to keep that promise. Why do the "betrayers" not keep that same promise. Why does it mean nothing to them, except after they are caught? Those are the questions I am seeking answers to.

Briana:<BR>Has it ever occurred to you that your husband really does love you? You both took vows. I'm sure you both meant them. It's just that sometimes the needs are a lot different than first thought and expectations aren't always met. The biggest mistake I have seen people make is assuming that "we" have done "everthing" our spouses wanted and needed. Basically, what we are saying is that "we" have done everything that "we" thought our spouses wanted and needed.<P>How do you tell a spouse who is busting butt to do all the "right" things that they aren't meeting your needs? How do you tell them they are wasting there time with doing the "wrong" thing? Especially, when they are convinced that they are doing the "right" thing and have done nothing wrong. You don't.<P>So you go about your business and soon you find someone who will meet those needs, at least temporarily, and you fall into the pit. You don't realize that the only reason that the OP meets your needs is because all you do is concentrate on those needs and nothing more. Usually when you go to the OP you don't have to worry about kids, bills, hassles at work, etc., you just concentrate on getting those "important" needs met. Usually, those needs are sexual in nature. It's amazing how sex can cover up a multitude of sins. It's really hard to feel bad about yourself or anything else in the throes of passion. But then, the brief and exciting encounter is over and you are abruptly and rudely awakened to the reality of life. <P>Did you "mean" to hurt anyone? No, of course not, but you did. Will you do it again? There are two ways to go on that one. Either you will be filled with guilt or it will become exceedingly easy to do it again and again. In either case you will have long term problems. <P>It appears that we are all capable of very self destructive behavior, but one thing we really need to understand is that very few people take pleasure in hurting others. The fact is that they are not even thinking of others when they do stupid things, or they wouldn't do much of what they do.<P>Don't beat yourself up if your spouse didn't have the courage to tell you you weren't meeting his needs. Sometimes we are afraid to tell our spouses that they aren't doing a good job until it's too late. Then when we finally send them the message it is loud and clear and very hurtful. <P>Who knows, maybe we will learn from one another and do better next time. That's pretty much all we can hope for at this point.<P>Flip<P>[This message has been edited by flipper (edited September 28, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by flipper (edited September 28, 1999).]

How do you creeps do it?<BR>Well after being abused to the point where my husband was going to kill me.( I had been faithful since the begining of our marriage of 10 years). When I left I thought saving my and my three childrens lives was important. No one told me when how lonely,scared and heartbroken I would be on my own. I thought that my morals and values could keep me from being lonely, but I was wrong someone was kind and i had an affair. I regrett it deeply and if i could go back i would of stayed and died in my house than have hurt my children and my husband because of the affair. i just wanted to live and see them grow up. I realize i was wrong I was willing to forgive my husbnd for all the bruises and pain cutting deep into my soul but he was never able to forgive me and maybe I don't deserve it I am in fact the one who cheated.

Unforgiven:<P>What you went through, NO ONE should have to go through. I am VERY sorry that you had to endure years of abuse and threats to your life. Leaving that abusive relationship was probably the BEST thing you could do for yourself and your kids.<P>I maintain, however, that even your H's abusive behavior does NOT entitle you to have an affair. If the marriage was over and you were legally divorced, then no problem. I might even be persuaded to believe that even if the divorce wasn't final, if there was NO hope of rekindling the marriage, then it would be hard to fault your intimacy with another.<P>I can, however, understand how you could get swept up in the emotion of a situation where a man so different from your abusive husband showed compassion and caring for you. I do not think it excuses the affair, but it does make it easier to see how you let it happen.<P>You have my deepest sympathy for your past tribulations. I hope your life is much better now that you are out of such an abusive relationship.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

We have all sinned and fallen short, my daughter says all the time that she is a good person. I tell her I in myself am not. The heart is wicked, what a wretch I am. She says she cannot trust anyone. So true, I tell her, I cannot even trust myself. There is only one I can trust in, his name is Jesus. The Word says "do not put confidence in man, but trust in the Lord." Our righteousness is as filthy rags, the only rightness we can have is his, working in us, changing us unto his likeness. Yet we cannot claim it as our own, only his rightness. Come on people, we are all in the same boat whether we are betrayed or betrayors. We are all betrayors (if we sin at all we are guilty of it all). We have all betrayed God, but he is just to forgive us our sins. Should we not be willing to do the same. He commands us to love and tells us to forgive. Why? Because he has done this for us. Our answer is not within ourselves by ourselves, except by his grace and his righteousness we are barely saved. If we could save ourselves we would not need a risen savior. The unsaved and unrepentant do not understand or know this truth, how are they going to know unless we walk in love towards them? Let Jesus SHINE. Peace, Blessings, Love, Ginn