[quote]They ARE communicating. Your FH and his 12 year old daughter understand each other without words.

So, if you had a 12YO and she was upset about something, you'd know what it was and why she was upset just by living under the same roof? You wouldn't have to talk to her to get details or to help her cope?

Psychic parenting. Might have to give that a try.

And you want to MARRY and involve your children with someone this weak? Can you tell me why?

That child is hurting desperately and needs her parents to give her some direction and boundaries, not a stranger. And yes you are a stranger to her in many ways. He parents need to get into family counseling with this poor girl.

Why oh why are you putting so much hatred and blame toward this child? She needs love and if she equates presents with love that is what her parents need to deal with. Do you really think sharing her father's attention when she barely has a mom with another woman and 2 other children is going to help?

Why TM are you so determined to go through with this?

How tragic that this child has to put up with this crap. She has already had her family ripped apart in a divorce and now she is expected to lay down and take it again with this marriage. A marriage to another person, especially one with children, is a very hard adjustment for a child. Many children, especially unstable ones, do not want to share their parents with other people and their families. It is very traumatic. She is trying to tell him that she does not want this marriage, why wouldn't he listen to her? It seems she has been through enough already, why add more?

Why is it always the KIDS who are expected to "adjust" instead of the ADULTS? The kids don't have the emotional maturity to adjust, the adults DO. What would be so tough about the adults doing the adjusting here and waiting until this girl is older and in college? And if y'all aren't willing to make that "adjustment" for her, then why should she be willing to make any "adjustments" for you?

The "wise" parent does what is in the best interest of the CHILD, not what necessarily makes themselves happy. A child's "happiness" is also something to be considered and certainly not something to be sacrificed to the parent's "happiness." I don't see much talk here about this child's "happiness," only the adult's "happiness."

You know, the kid has already lost her mother and her safe family and now she is expected to lose her father - and do it GLADLY. And SHE is called "selfish?" hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I think it is extremely unrealistic to think that marriage will solve this terrible situtation. It will only make it much worse and then ALL the kids will suffer.

The bottom line is that the kid's best interest has to come before the parent's "happiness." That is the obligation of any parent.

I don't think I've read anything in any of the posts that I disagree with.

I can understand the blame and anger that is being expressed toward this 12 yo girl. I think it is misdirected, though, because she is NOT the cause, your boyfriend is. It is not your problem to solve, it is HIS.

You've given many examples of her father giving into the smallest of demands so that she doesn't leave. Why do you think a WEDDING should be the FIRST thing she should experience of not getting her way?

I think it would be much wiser for her father to start with the small things to say "no" on and to help her learn different coping skills other than manipulation.

Until your boyfriend can handle the "small" things, he won't be able to handle the "big" things. If you're having a problem with how he bows to the manipulation of a young girl, what do you think it would be like for YOU when she's grown and manipulates him as a grandfather.

If I were you, I would insist that he get HIMSELF into counseling, and maybe add his DD after he has progressed himself a little bit. If counseling is again refused by your boyfriend for HIM to start learning how to deal with the little things, I would run like he!! before the ante goes up for ALL of you.

I am all for doing things in a way that is first and foremost in the best interest of the kids. Imo, neither of the two options you present are in the best interest of ANYONE, including your kids!

Take care

***I guess you're all right. Give her what she wants, let her win this game she's playing and make sure that throughout her young life she NEVER EVER has to deal with any sort of disappointment, not getting her way, being told no or anything else. Let her call the shots and tell dad what he will and won't do. Let her make demands of everyone. If anything ever doesn't go her way, somebody better hurry to the rescue to make it good for her or the world will fall off its axis. Everyone else in the world must bow to her. We get to be miserable by having to break up and let him be alone forever because she'll run the next girlfriend off too.***

***She doesn't care if we get married or not. She still refuses to respect me or my kids and always demands that she be the only one to get attention, money, gifts, and her way. She still tells him she doesn't want any other female around unless it's her mom. She demands that he be alone. She has told him that she wants it to be just him and her forever. Forget his feelings.***

***She does not love him for being good to her, she loves his wallet. She loves what he buys for her. Bet if he quit spending money on her, she'd quit speaking to him. She got so tore up when he told her he couldn't spend $200 on a race track. She didn't speak to him until she found something else she wanted him to buy.***

***She refuses to deal with disappointment and it's their fault because instead of making her deal with the disappointment of the divorce by talking or counseling, they threw gifts at her to shut her up and keep her happy. It's much easier to buy her something ridiculously expensive every week than to ask how she's feeling. Instead of explaining that Mom had just lost her car and couldn't take the kid to a movie that very night and the movie would be playing tomorrow night or next week, phone lines were burnt up tp find someone to take her because God forbid she get disappointed.***

After reading this, I can understand perfectly why this 12-year-old wants nothing to do with you. She needs a responsible adult in her life, not someone who is even more immature than she is.

Tell me again who it is who cannot deal with disappointment -- ?

***Ok. Well, then I guess we break up.***

If your "FH" is wise, that's exactly what he'll do. I don't think you're trying to convince the 12-year-old to love and respect you -- I think you're trying to convince *him* to put *you* first instead of putting his child first.

What does "FH" say when you tell him what you have written above?

Sorry you didn't get the answer you wanted.
Mulan

I find this thread incredibly sad. Poor kid.

Tmcamp, however your FH's daughter is behaving, you can be sure that it is the only way she can find to survive in the dysfunctional world in which she finds herself. It is the responsibility of your FH and his xW to give her the most functional environment they can manage - enforcing boundaries, setting standards, being firm when needed, being supportive too. It's not the child's responsibility to raise herself - that's what parents are for. If neither of them can consistently supply adequate parenting, then the child's behaviour will naturally follow. She will continually test boundaries, challenge shaky standards, seek a substitute for the emotional security that ought to be hers.

Your FH, by your account, is not doing much of a job on that front. Blaming the child for HIS failure is lazy and unfair. Your issue is with HIM, not her.

Read your words carefully. Everything you say is about how YOU think things should be, how YOU want to control things, how YOU feel furious at not being able to make things happen the way you want them to. Your words show every bit as much jealousy and possessiveness as do her actions, as you describe them. How many of your words show an understanding of the child's position and viewpoint? How many of your words demonstrate love and empathy?

Would you really want you as a stepmother? Please don't just answer that question angrily. Really think about it.

TogetherAlone

People, People...I think we've gone way off the reservation here, just listen for a second...

It's obvious that our new friend here is frustrated. Maybe instead of beating her over the head we should let her vent and then have a constructive conversation instead of driving her away before she gets all her frustration out?

Just a thought.

I'd like to hear more first.

I have been reading this thread but wasn't going to respond. I had somewhat mixed feelings because I certainly understand your frustration. I do think you need to be taking issue with the PARENTING and CONDITIONING this 12 year old has experienced by her own father rather than with the actions of this child.

Were your parents divorced? If so, how old where you when you dealt with issues like those of this 12 year old.

Anyway, some ideas here....coming from a grown woman whose own life sounds a bit similar to this 12 year old.


I will GUARANTEE YOU.... bet my home, my car, my furniture, that she DOES IN FACT wonder why her mom only has her once a week. I will also GUARANTEE you that she's got a pretty good idea of what that reason is. Children are so much more insightful than we think. I will also guarantee you that she knows how YOU feel about it and she probably amplifies the negative feelings you have about it.

I would be willing to bet she also knows how absurd it is to move in with her mom and that one of the most hurtful things she will remember about her childhood will be when her mom told her to talk to her dad when she asked if she could live with her.


She knows. Absolutely. Let me play the dime-store pychologist for a second and take a wild guess that this is a HUGE reason she is so protective of her dad and his affection. This could also be fueling her anger and resentment and a good portion of that time she spends locked in her room is spent working to stay angry so she doesn't have to deal with the vunerability of her pain and fear.


I have a better idea.... instead of playing the game (which are are now a very active participant in) and making this about her vs. you or her vs. your marriage or her vs. the world.... how about turning this back to her father. That is what this is stemming from. She's stated she doesn't dislike you. She wants it just her and her dad.

Have you wondered why? Instead of taking the easy "She's just a selfish little girl" path, look deeper. What's she afraid of? Is there a way to help her? SHE IS TWELVE YEARS OLD FOR GOODNESS SAKE! Yeah, 12 year olds are selfish. Absolutely! What is she dealing with though? Inside? What are her fears?

Please, don't assume she's just trying to make your life difficult. Whatever she is projecting to you, she's suffering so much more inside.

I was that way. My fears and insecurities were eating my insides. I was angry and mean to the people who loved me. I lashed out at my 'good' parent and coddled the 'other' parent. I locked myself in my room and refused to talk about anything. You know what I did there? I cried and I dreamt of just being gone. I would have hit anyone who tried to accuse me of crying.... I would have turned on them so damn fast it would have hurt. But you know what... that's what I did. Eventually, I ended up trying to kill myself. Then... and only then.... was I forced to deal with what really bothered me.



Should be kinda dumb not to take this attitude. The adults in her life have showed her how. They are the ones who are lazy and threw everything at her to shut her up and gave her what she wanted so they didn't have to deal with her. She doesn't sound like an idiot....


Frankly, dad is running the girlfriend off.


Please read this. Do you think she's thinking....'I want my dad to be alone' or could it be "I'm afraid I'll lose my dad like I've lost my mom". She's not wired to worry about his feelings first... she is 12. But I'm sure she's not going "screw him!". She doesn't know how to deal with her fears and needs... she can't articulate them and everyone has shut her up her and given her what she wanted so they didn't have to deal with her. What do you expect?


Bet your wrong.

Bet she'd love to REALLY speak with him rather than him simply spend money on her.


You wrapped it up in this paragraph. It is their fault.

Now, I would suggest working on what the problem is rather than the supposed outright willful selfishness of this 12 year old.


Noboby said break up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Before you all become a family though, it seems that there are issues that need to be dealt with. You are going to be a family... her included... why not actually deal with the issues at hand so the family has more of chance. Blended families have a hard enough time without starting out with these issues to begin with. I'd suggest getting into family counseling now. I'd suggest getting that girl some help because it sounds to me like she is screaming for attention....the RIGHT kind, not the money kind... and it sounds as if dad could use some help finding a better way to communicate than gifts.


He's getting kudos for listening. I'd fail him for the gifts to shut her up. I'd fail you all for not looking deeper at the root of the problem.

Kudos? There is a 12 year old girl who is obviously hurting. A dad who doesn't know how to reach her. And a soon to be step mom who is caught in the middle of a dad who is ineffective and a child screaming for attention.

Personally, there aren't any kudo's going out as far as I see.

FIM

RebornMan, I think we are having a very constructive discussion here and don't see that anyone has "gone off the reservation." She may not like some of the things she hears, but she needs to hear them. This is a support forum, not a tell-them-whatever-they-want-to-hear forum.

Now, if you want to hear more, you are perfectly free to ask questions, there is nothing stopping you.

FIM, that was heartwrenchingly and beautifully expressed. This is so near to my heart because my DD is 12 and I was around 12 when my mother left my father for OM. She took my two older sisters and wanted to leave my younger B and I with our dad.

Tm, I hope you are still reading this is such an important discussion about the life of a child.

Melody....all I was trying to point out is some folks need to get the frustration and anger out before anything constructive is helpful.

I just didn't want her running away before she was ready to digest some helpful commentary.

The tone of some of the posts seemed a little on the harsh side but hey my version of harsh may be others version of more than reasonable...I don't know.

I might just be in an overly sensative mood tonight.

Faithinme and FF,

Probably inappropriate on someone else's thread, but I just wanted to give both of you a great big hug.

{{{{{{FIM}}}}}} {{{{{FF}}}}}

You are both incredible survivors! I am so thankful that all of us on this thread have our own children so that we may heal our own damaged "child within" by being loving parents and loving embassadors for the children of the world who are broken.

TM, do you see why all on this thread are so passionate about this 12 yo girl? Do you understand?

RebornMan, I think there have been some pretty good posts on this thread with some things she dearly needs to hear. Yes, the truth is sometimes harsh. Hopefully she is openminded enough to listen to another perspective [which is what she asked for] and listens to opinions she doesn't like. However, no one but she has control over whether she leaves or not.

FF - This is quite sensitive for me right now as I am in the process of a divorce. My 10 year old is like a mini me. I hate the fact that my children are going through something I swore I would never be part of putting them through. My goal is simply to make it as easy on them as possible.

It breaks my heart to hear of any child going through that kind of pain.


Weaver,

I'm hoping that the fact that I HAVE been through a crappy experience as a child helps me to handle the situation better for my own children. I can honestly say that if it helps me be a better parent... it will have been worth it. There are a lot of people here that are daily examples of strength and generosity. It's a wonderful thing to see.

FIM

My opinions for what they're worth:

1. 12 year olds do not, should not, be allowed to determine how a household is run. Have input..yes. Be the decision maker? No!

-do we let 2 year olds run the house, make the decisions, because they might be "damaged", coming from a dysfunctional background? No. We assist them in learning to be more independent...BUT we also set limits, boundaries, around their choices, behaviors, to help them feel "safe".

Now, "12" isn't "2", but the developmental issues are similar in terms of the desire for more independence, while dealing with impulsive feelings in a safe manner. If you want more independence, freedoms, part of that is learning that life does have consequences, limits. Life doesn't always go our way. If a child doesn't learn how to manage that lesson, they're in for a rude awakening in the real adult world!

2. I believe that what this 12 year old needs is someone willing to step up to the plate and set limits, in addition to helping her feel loved and cherished. I agree that it absolutely must come from her parent(s), not a possible step-mother. Some have suggested that "the parents seek counseling to try and work the situation out". This birth mother won't even see her daughter more than once a week! She doesn't even care enough about her daughter to set any limits! And of course her daughter recognizes this at some level. And maybe this is a big part of the issue for the daughter. Who does care? Dad isn't doing it either! She's said that it's not that she doesn't like the future stp-mom.

Kids will play it for all it's worth to get their way, particularly when they feel so powerless over their lives. We see this in many divorced families, not just "dysfunctional" ones. Mom pitted against Dad. Divide and conquer and get my way. Short term gain....but long term loss for the child.

3. I agree....Dad must be the one to step up to the plate. It's between he and his daughter. Yes it affects others, but he is the primary parent. He's the one the daughter really cares about.

4. The anger needs to be vented at Dad! I agree that the daughter's behavior isn't ok. But he's doing nothing to deal with it. So the "other person" becomes the bad guy, while Dad gets to keep his "good guy" role with the daughter. Grow up Dad! Are you feeling so guilty over the way your ex treats your daughter that you overcompensate? Future wife....Stop enabling Dad! Whenever you step in as the bad guy, he gets to be the good guy. How do you resolve this? Step out of the relationship between dad and daughter. Your issue is with dad's behaviors and choices....not the daughter.

5. Your FH either agrees with you about how his daughter needs to be parented, or he doesn't. If he agrees, why isn't he acting on that? If he doesn't, he needs to come out and acknowledge it to you. If he won't do either, what does that tell you?

It's not the daughter's issue to sort out. Once you figure this out about dad, then you have the decision as to whether it's acceptable to you or not...the decision as to whether you want a marriage and family life with these kind of dynamics. The other option is for you to try to change dad and daughter. You're already trying to do that. As Dr Phil says "How's it working for you?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Hmm, well, gotta jump in here. My WH raised his kids by himself since they were very young - 2 and 3. He got to be very close with his daughter.

When she was 10, we met, and then got married when she was 12. At first, she was very close to me. But as things go, she soon started resenting me.

However, I had made my mind up to be a friend to her. Not a mother - she already had one. But her mother was pretty much out of her life.

I developed a relationship with her - apart from her dad. I was a servant to her - took care of her, did many things with and for her without expecting anything back. After a year or two, we grew very close. I love her very much and am still very close to her - even though her dad is with someone else.

This is going to be up to you to fix. You must have a relationship with this girl - apart from your relationship with your FH. This is vital. It can work - but you need to come along side her, and help (not compete with) her. Good luck.

Actually, I think the girl is behaving appropriately, given the circumstances of her life so far, if Mom doesn't really want her except for one night a week. Imagine the hurt that she can't express. She acts out with the only parent who has NOT rejected her.

She is at the age when she could Really be acting out, in really harmful ways: truancy, having sex with bad boys, abusing substances, shoplifting, cutting herself. So she's manipulative and pouty, and threatens to move in with her mother (an empty threat, Mom isn't really interested.)

Am I exaggerating? Uh, no. I personally know a teenage girl who has piercings, tattoos, and cuts herself. Closer to home, my own sister (years ago) was drinking, playing hookey, sitting in the back seats of cars with punk boys, stealing, vandalizing public property. Age 13.)

If the little 12 year old isn't doing any of those things, it's because she knows that her Dad still loves her. There's a fine line between being sulky pouty snotty and crossing into delinquency.

I hope the maybe stepmother will step back and look again at the man she loves, and see what a good person he really is being. He is picking his battles. It doesn't mean he doesn't love the woman he wants to marry. His decisions right now are monumental. Wavering a little on the discipline is not as consequential as letting his daughter know that he loves her.

Psychic parenting? No, just understanding.

I don't believe she has any say - and shouldn't - on how this girl is parented. That is the business of her parents, not her dad's girlfriend. He needs to do what is in the best interest of his child, not follow the dictates of his girlfriend. His first obligation is to his child and it is his obligation to make sure her best interests are protected above all else.

I agree with much of what Bellvue said but my biggest fear is that the above statement ISN'T accurate.

Again, I'm just pulling from my own experience here, but I had a parent that gave me 'things' all the time. He did love me, but he gave of his possessions instead of himself.

From what was said here, I wonder if a lot of what she is looking for isn't proof of love.

I don't know. I could be so off base. I wasn't into early sex or breaking the law. I drew into myself and acted out against everyone around me. I wanted to be close. I wanted someone to reach me. I didn't know how to let someone in without feeling weak though. I took that out on my dads girlfriend A LOT. I didn't dislike her. I couldn't figure where she fit and where I fit.

No matter what my dad gave me, she also had his time which was the single most valuable thing to me. So I wanted more and expected more of the gifts because that's what he gave.... all the while wanting every piece of him that he was giving to someone else.

I was a royal witch to him, to her, to my siblings, to everyone. Except at school where the teachers said I was a little sad but very agreeable.

I sat in my room wondering where I fit into this world if I couldn't even find my place with my mom and dad. *My mom also didn't want to a mom by the way*

I don't think she knows her dad loves her. Not in the way that makes her feel secure.

However, part of that IS the age. Being a 12 year old girl sucks even in the most perfect family.

I do want to say that I may simply be projecting to much of my own childhood issues into this. But when I read what is written it does hit home and I hope that something of my experience might help with some insight into this young lady.

ALSO.... no a twelve year old should not make the rules of the family. I agree. I don't think this is an issue of a 12 year old running the family though. It's a much deeper issue than that.