My FHs daughter (12) is making threats to move in with her mom. She's done this for over a year when the subject of us getting married comes up. He has still not made it clear to her that we ARE getting married. He only tells her we MAY be and the wedding is 5 months from now!!!!

FH does not want her to move and she knows that he'll do anything to keep from doing it. I'm worried he will postpone the wedding date AGAIN (4th time) to make her happy, but it only prolongs the inevitable. We'll never be able to get married if he allows her to make these threats.

They don't communicate and I've tried to get them to. I want to talk to her to explain that being selfish and only thinking of herself is not fair to her dad's happiness (or mine, but she won't care about that), and I can do that in a way that may not upset her. I'm hopeful it'll work, if I do it. Her dad won't tell her that. No one will, they've ALL always catered to her and it's all she's known. She's so isolated from everyone. She hardly spends any time outside of her room.

How do we get her to understand that other people have to be considered sometimes? Or do I leave him knowing that we'll never have a future? I don't want to give in to her and her "win" again like she always does. The sooner she sees that everything doesn't always go her way, the better person she may turn out to be.

TM,

I don't understand completely what you're saying. I see this is your first post - can you give us more background?

I'm also not familiar with your term "FH".

Can you tell us how long you've been in this relationship; what your relationship is with the 12 year old, how long FH, has been divorced from his wife. What the custody/visitation issues are?

It's just hard to know what to say until some of this is clarified. Oh, and welcome to MB!!

Tm, read what you wrote above several times carefully. Do you honestly expect a 12 year old that lost her intact family and had her whole world blown away put her father's "happiness" first? If I knew your fiance, I would tell him to reconsider getting remarried at all until that child is up and out of the house. So you the woman this child would consider a threat to her stability and happiness are going to talk to her about "selfishness"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I would strongly urge you to walk away from the relationship and allow this man to be a real father to his daughter. We only get one chance in life to do right by our children.

Have you considered that what you are up against may not be the daughter's animosity, but rather her father's ambivalence? If I really wanted to marry someone, and my child's animosity created such a problem that the wedding had to be postponed four times, I'd have a plan for dealing with the child-I'd be in family therapy with kiddo at the very least. I would create opportunities for child and future step-parent to get together and have fun. I would not lie to my child or my fiancé about my intentions-and he is obviously lying to one of you, because you cannot both be making definite plans to marry someone and thinking, "Well, maybe we'll get married, someday".

Of course the 12 year old is selfish-that's the nature of twelve year olds. They are only starting to develop the mental equipment necessary to truly comprehend another person's point of view. That's why they have parents-to help reign in their selfishness and teach regard for others. The wise parent does not let a 12 year old make big decisions-like whether the parent can get married-for the parent. Teaching daughter the error of her ways so she will give her blessing to the marriage is only going to confirm her notion that what she says goes.

My hunch is that your financé himself still is ambivalent about this marriage and that is why he has postponed it four times and is still not willing to say to his daughter, "Yes, we are getting married on September the whatever". I don't doubt that a major source of his ambivalence is the concern over how his children will be affected, but I think your problem is really with him, not with Miss Priss.

elspeth, I think that is a very unfair view of a 12 year old. This child already lost her intact family and now sees the threat of another woman in her father's life. There is nothing selfish about that. children need security. A parent needs to make sacrifices for the greater good of their children.

Just guessing here - tell me if I'm wrong. There's precious little information to go on here.

Do the circumstances of a separated or divorced couple (your future husband and his XW) struggling over their daughter with a future step Mom (you) have anything to do with the remnants of an affair?

Bluntly, are you a homewrecker?

If so, you're the one being selfish and this girl's problems are largely your doing. I advise the father to put off the marriage permanently and focus entirely on his daughter.

oh ok, duh FH = future husband <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I'm confused-what is an unfair view of a 12 year old?

Suggesting that her behavior is normal for a kid her age? What would be fairer, in your opinion?

Suggesting that her father being in family therapy with her to heal their relationship would be a good idea? Again, what would be fairer, in your opinion?

Pointing out that 12 year olds need parental guidance and shouldn't be given the task of making adult decisions? Okay, again, what would be fairer?

Suggesting that TM take on her fiancé for his wavering instead of blaming the 12 year old? One last time, what would be fairer?

No I am talking about about the above quote. I agree with the rest of your post btw. Just the above stuck in my craw. I suspect there is much more to this story than we are getting and the adult needs to be the adult here and take responsibility for HIS actions instead of "teaching" the child. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent since I agreed with the rest of your post

I have to wonder why the 12 year old doesn't want you marrying her dad. Especially after living together all this time.

Why doesn't she like you? Why does she stay in her bedroom all the time?

You didn't have anything to do with the demise of her parents marriage did you?

I have to agree with elspeth regarding the dad's ambivalance as well.

Lots going on here.

And btw, she is supposed to come first in her dad's life now, especially after the breakup of her parents marriage. If my child didn't like my fiance and didn't want me to marry him, well I would have to heavily weigh in her feelings.

Edited to add that I hadn't seen where WAT had already asked you about an affair - not trying to jumb all over you just trying to get to the bottom of the childs feelings.

Ahhhh! FH=future husband!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Uhm, faithful, that's exactly what I was saying-that "teaching" the child would be the wrong thing to do. "Teaching daughter the error of her ways so she will give her blessing to the marriage" is a gerund phrase that serves as the subject of the sentence. The predicate is " is only going to confirm her notion that what she says goes", something I don't think would be wise to do. I don't think the Dad should be trying to convince his daughter she is being selfish and should give him her permission to wed. She shouldn't be in the business of giving her dad permission. I think what he does need to do is figure out why she is so threatened by the impending wedding and what would help her to feel secure, and to brainstorm ways to help her and TM connect. But I think he's the problem here, not the daughter, who may very well just be picking up on Dad's ambivalence and acting it out in the dramatic way 12 year olds are known for.

Sorry, I was trying to keep it short and I accidentally posted in the wrong forum, but since you're all here....

FH has been divorced for 5 years. I did not cause the divorce, nor did I even know him at the time. His daughter has lived with him for that time, visiting her mother every Friday night, if her mother would have her. He has always been at her beck and call. I think out of guilt for the divorce, but he says no. She is a withdrawn child who keeps to herself. At first I thought it was because she was self-sufficient and didn't require entertainment like some kids do, but that's not it. She refuses to communicate and has never had to, at least not with her dad. Not sure how she communicates with her mom.

When I first met her about 2 years ago, she liked me. She'd help me cook, joke around, go shopping with me, etc. She liked my kids (9 and 5). Now and for the last year or so, he does not communicate her feelings, no happiness, no sadness, no anger...nothing. She told my oldest daughter a year ago that if me and her dad got married, she was moving in with her mom. Well, I found out and being the advocate of communication with your children that I am, I told him.

That's when the crap started. That's when I found out how much of a hold she has over him. Everyone (her mom, dad and GPs) have always given her everything she's wanted. If she says she wants it, it's hers. She gets mad when she doesn't get what she wants when she wants it and to make her happy, they give in.

She knows her dad will do anything to keep her there, even break up with me. He says it's not an option, but I think differently. I would choose my kids over a man if I thought I'd lose them. But I think she's bluffing. She knows he doesn't want her to go so she uses it to blackmail him. He won't call her bluff.

We love each other very much, he's better to me than anyone has ever been and vice versa. This child refuses to see past the end of her nose that sometimes you have to consider other people. I know what kind of benefit I can be to her. I have been for two years. Communication is a big reason she's having a hard time, I think. A year ago, we decided that we needed to talk to our kids, seperately, about the wedding plans well in advance to get them used to the idea (for a lack of a better term). Just work it into a conversation here or there, testing the waters and seeing how it goes. I have talked to my kids for over a year about this wedding and they are excited about being involved. He never mentioned it to his child until 2 months ago.

She told him that it's not me that she doesn't want around, it's anyone. Unless he remarries her mom, which he told her would never happen, she didn't want him with anyone. That, to me, is being selfish. He's asked her doesn't he deserve to be happy too and she said he does, but still refuses to afford him that luxury. He's only allowed to be happy if he's doing something that pleases her.

I insist they spend time together. I have stopped coming over on certain nights so they can spend time with each other, but she stays locked up in her room and won't come out to see him. But she complains if I have to come over one of those nights to help with work stuff or whatever. I don't butt in if they want to go out one night or fishing one day. That's not good enough.

Her mom got her car impounded for driving on a suspended license on the kid's birthday. That meant they couldn't go to a movie. I understand it was her birthday, did the kid care that her mom was having a problem? No. Her only concern was she wasn't getting to go to the movie. So her Grandmother had to be called. She rushed to her rescue and took her out. I know kids are selfish. I have to talk mine through it sometimes when they don't get what they want and make them understand that things aren't always going to be how they want them and to consider other people sometimes, not just yourself. My kids luckily understand that sometimes disappointment is a part of life. I know that too, but I'm tired of being the one who is constantly disappointed and made to bend and conform. I'd like her meet us halfway regarding our relationship. Even if we never got married, she'd still be this way because I'm there.

She is worried I will take him from her, but it's already been made clear that I'm not. We don't know all of the problem because she won't talk to him and tell him what's wrong. I guess she thinks the more she prolongs her dissatifaction, the longer it'll be before we'll be married. She wants him to be alone the rest of his life.

Yes, he needs to communicate with her. I'm trying to get them to do that. Asking him to talk to her, ask her about her day, her feelings, any probelms...whatever. She's very rigid and doesn't accept change. She doesn't accept authority either. He's been more her friend than a parent. Her mom's not helping, I'm sure. All I'm asking for is some respect from her and for her to realize that her dad wants her to be happy, but he'd like to be happy someday too.

I worry that if she's allowed to continue to "rule the roost" then she will be a very troubled teenager and adult. Even if I'm not around anymore, I'd still hate for him to have to go through that. Mainly I just wanted to know if anyone had a better idea than communication between the 2 of them. Counseling has been refused.

Does that clear anything up?

Elspeth:

I have asked him a few times if he really wants to get married. If he's wanting to put it off again just because she's not ready to accept it, or because he's not ready to be married again. He says he's concerned with her feelings and doesn't want to do anything to make her leave for her mom's, but that breaking up is not an option for him and he definitely wants to marry me.

This is the first REAL date we've set. In other words, we've set dates before, but before any deposits could be paid or reservations made, we've had to change it because she was still having trouble with us being together. I guess he thought she'd just get used to having me around and not care, so he didn't talk to her about it. Now that we set a real date, paid deposits and made reservations, bought all kinds of stuff...yada, yada, yada...he's finally wanting to talk to her. I am frustrated, yes.

I guess I was hoping she would see how good I am to her, her handicapped sister, her dad and all the rest of her family and accept me. See how much fun we could have together. Not even close. Sometimes we all sit around and laugh til we hurt, but it's not good enough for her to have someone there who she can laugh with and depend on. When her dad has to travel overseas, I stay with them because she hates staying at her GMs and her mom certainly won't keep them. I cook for them, buy for them, wash their clothes, help her study, whatever....She takes without giving. No respect, no manners, nothing.

He's tried to tell her that I'm very good to him and point out how much I do for her and how good I am to her. She's even told him I've never done anything wrong towards her to make her not like me. It's just that I'm not her mom. I'm not trying to be her mom. She knows that. I've never said a cross word about her mom.

I don't know that she "hates" me, but I think because I'm not her mom (thank goodness!!!) she'll never accept me. Even if we did move the wedding to next year, she'd still threaten the same thing. I'm almost sure of it. I'm trying to get him to talk with her and get her to open up about how she feels about things...anything!!! Hoping maybe, even if I have to walk away from this, they'll have a better relationship.

FH knows that if she really wants to go to her mom's, he can't stop her. He can for a while, but as she gets older, he can't. Even if we never get married and I'm no where around, she'll go if she wants to...the first time he grounds her or says no to something she really wants, she's gone. Because she thinks if she can't get it from him, she'll get it from good ol mom.

I just dn't want to give up without thinking I've done everything I could to help her feel better about me and help them have a better relationship in the process.

No, I did not play the homewrecker. I didn't know him until 3.5 years after his divorce. His ex was the homewrecker.

"Pointing out that 12 year olds need parental guidance and shouldn't be given the task of making adult decisions? Okay, again, what would be fairer?"

Elspeth:

He is not asking her to make the decision of whether or not we get married. He's wanting her to accept and be content with the idea. He'd like for her to accept me for who I am and for what I bring to that household. I am a good person and I'm better to her than her own mother. Her mom only buys her stuff to make her happy and sees her one night a week, if she feels like it. I know that doesn't make a child love her mother any less, but I am very good to that kid. She doesn't have to love me, just respect me. That's what he wants her to do, not decide whether or not he should marry me.

Just clarifying...

They ARE communicating. Your FH and his 12 year old daughter understand each other without words.

She is not obligated to accept and accomodate you. It doesn't matter how much she likes you. If you marry her father she will be upset. The other adults in her life have screwed her life up in spades. She has no security, no hope for her own future, and no power. All she has is her manipulative ability to help her survive.

What is the big deal about making your relationship legal, and having a big, pretty wedding and a party with all the nice tuxedos, photos, flowers and buffet dinner? If you and your guy love each other, why not continue to date until this extremely fragile and damaged 12 year old child goes off to college and gets caught up in her own life?

She's 12 years old. There is not a 12 year old girl on the planet who is capable of putting the happiness of her parent above her own feelings. This is normal for her stage of development. She has already endured having a broken home, packing up and traveling to visit her mom and dad. Children of divorced parents are essentially homeless.

They have part of their wardrobe in one parent's closet; but the shoes that go with the pants are in the other parent's closet. They have part of their term paper in one parent's computer, but the hand written notes from the library are in the other parent's car. They may have all the nifty snacks they like in both parents' kitchens, but they walk into Dad's kitchen and there's the girlfriend with her hand in Dad's back pocket, caressing his buttocks.

They love the little kids of the parent's significant others, but the little dweebs scratch their game CD's and turn down the pages of their favorite Harry Potter books, or spill their snacks on the covers.

You can't win this one. Well, yes you can. You can be the bigger person, the adult, and back off, and stop planning the wedding that the child is bitterly opposed to. If you back off, it doesn't mean that you have lost. It means that you have deferred to the best interests of a broken child.

Bellevue, you said what I wanted to say so beautifully. Awesome. TM, I hope you are truly listening with your heart and wtih your own children in mind, too.

If you love this man and by extension, his daughter. Do some research and find a good child psychologist to work with her and her dad. You work with the counselor too to see how you might improve this little girls internal/external world.

You will never reqret putting her first for a few years as Bellevue has suggested.

The big deal about getting married is we want to be able to see each other every night if we can. Because we love each other and enjoy each other's company. Right now, we see each other every other week because of the custody arrangement with my ex (one week on, one week off). We'd like to live together. We'd like to take the next step in our lives. We'd like to buy a bigger house. All kinds of the same reasons why other people like to get married.

What if she wants to get married one day, but her dad says no because he wants her to live with him forever and have her to himself? That's okay too, right?

"They have part of their wardrobe in one parent's closet; but the shoes that go with the pants are in the other parent's closet. They have part of their term paper in one parent's computer, but the hand written notes from the library are in the other parent's car. They may have all the nifty snacks they like in both parents' kitchens, but they walk into Dad's kitchen and there's the girlfriend with her hand in Dad's back pocket, caressing his buttocks."

Not the case here. Everything she owns is at his house. They carry a little suitcase, enough for ONE night to her mom's. Her mother doesn't want her, remember? One night a week? I don't think the child has ever wondered why her mom only wants to see her one night a week. It's not my job to tell her, but maybe someone should before she decides to carry through on this. I'd think she'd realize a threat like moving to mom's really is absurd if she thought it through. (But why do that as long as she gets what she wants?) The last time she told her mom she wanted to do that, her mom told her to speak with her dad. She didn't want to be the one to tell her no. She doesn't see that her mom doesn't want around that much. Mom doesn't want to be a full-time mom.

I guess you're all right. Give her what she wants, let her win this game she's playing and make sure that throughout her young life she NEVER EVER has to deal with any sort of disappointment, not getting her way, being told no or anything else. Let her call the shots and tell dad what he will and won't do. Let her make demands of everyone. If anything ever doesn't go her way, somebody better hurry to the rescue to make it good for her or the world will fall off its axis. Everyone else in the world must bow to her. We get to be miserable by having to break up and let him be alone forever because she'll run the next girlfriend off too.

She doesn't care if we get married or not. She still refuses to respect me or my kids and always demands that she be the only one to get attention, money, gifts, and her way. She still tells him she doesn't want any other female around unless it's her mom. She demands that he be alone. She has told him that she wants it to be just him and her forever. Forget his feelings.

She does not love him for being good to her, she loves his wallet. She loves what he buys for her. Bet if he quit spending money on her, she'd quit speaking to him. She got so tore up when he told her he couldn't spend $200 on a race track. She didn't speak to him until she found something else she wanted him to buy.

She refuses to deal with disappointment and it's their fault because instead of making her deal with the disappointment of the divorce by talking or counseling, they threw gifts at her to shut her up and keep her happy. It's much easier to buy her something ridiculously expensive every week than to ask how she's feeling. Instead of explaining that Mom had just lost her car and couldn't take the kid to a movie that very night and the movie would be playing tomorrow night or next week, phone lines were burnt up tp find someone to take her because God forbid she get disappointed.

Ok. Well, then I guess we break up. I'm not hanging around for the gloating that she does when she sees she got her way, just like she does when she sticks her lip out and gets me "thrown out"...told to go home because she's upset.

This kid will be trouble from now. If she gets her way about this she will know without a doubt that she is most certainly in charge. Her dad even told me she is in control. That's bad when a parent can say that about their kid. I like to know how my kids feel about things, but I can not let them dictate what I will and will not do. He can tell me what I can and can't do, he can tell me what he will and will not do, but he can't speak up to a 12YO. And from what I am getting on these posts, he's getting kudos for it. He's doing the right thing.

Thanks!