K - I can understand the 3 month NC now and especially after what sys wrote. If I think back to D-Day and even to prior thoughts of the OM and I trying to end the EA, I could not ever fathom NC forever! I knew in my head that is what had to be done, but I did not want to endure the pain of NC forever. But, I have to wonder if the OM and I were given a 3 month NC agreement, would I feel hopeful to be with the OM at the end of the 3 months and feel different about working on my marraige? I cannot answer that, but it makes me wonder.

What concerns me about sys and his wife, is his wife not wanting any physical touch and her being "icy". I had only felt that way when I was in the EA and had contact with the OM. When the EA was over, I needed to be physically near my husband. Do other WS's feel as sys's wife? Cards, did you experience this?

2BN-

Good point, 2B, we may have been tempted to hold on to that fact of the 90 days and plan to go back. Maybe even arranging with OM to resume at that time. It's hard to say what our foggy mind would do, as it's still possible that the 90 days would do its job and help us see the light.

As far as being physical with my H, immediately after the end of the EA I NEEDED it. The withdrawal of love from the EA had to be replaced! I needed more touch & affection from my H than usual, especially in those early weeks (much to his surprise!).

Yeah, that is often on my mind, but I don't know that that is what is going on. With all the deception involved in the first place, I can't help but wonder. In the meantime, i have to go on what my gut tells me and that is that she is sincere and not looking at the 90 days as a stop-gap measure. If that were the case, I think she'd be laying the groundwork for an exit, b/c that is where that would leave us.

As for the physical affection, we do have some, but like I said, I feel like she has withdrawn a lot. The first weeks we did cling to each other a lot -more me to her than her to me I think. She later told me it seemed weird to her so I backed off. One of the problems we had in the marriage was that we had over the years become less and less physically demonstrative of our affection in our day to day lives. So to have me suddenly trying to do that in over-drive was probably a bit of a shock to her. So my point is, she was used to not being overly touchy feely with me. Now I'm slowly trying to bring that back and like I said, having mixed results.

Another thing that perhaps makes my situation different is that I discovered her EA. Not sure if that makes a difference of not, but to suddenly be revealed like that left both of us in a weird place. There was no tearful confession, instead I got the "I don't love you, I love him thing". So a lot of distance was put there right up front.

Sys, I wouldn't worry about the 90 day thing right now. As I said, the withdrawing over that amount of time should give her SOME clarity on the situation in any case.

I did the clinging to my H, which was a shock to him. We had been less demonstrative with each other over time, too, and I think my needing to be close to him made him made him REALLY wonder what was going on. At that time he seemed to understand about the "addiction" process and withdrawal. It is now, these days, that he can't seem to understand how I would still be having withdrawal.

Your situation is not different from mine, my H discovered my EA, too. I did not break it off, then 2 weeks later OM W discovered us. He denied it to her, then she key logged and had proof. He was given an ultimatum and that is what finally ended it another week or 2 after that. So the fact that the EA did not die a natural death makes it harder for us WS to end the A. Our worlds collide and crash, we are too addicted and too much in a fog to think right and do the right thing, and it takes time to withdraw.

Sys-

I too 'discovered' the affair. Got that same message you did. "I'm not in love with you anymore, I'm in love with him." Then it was amended to the standard "I love you, but not in love with you."

In my case, my wife went stone cold on me immediately after the A ended and she was told by her OM 'don't come'. There was NO hugging, kissing, touching of any kind. Neither of us could stand to go to our bedroom (hard to explain since they didn't have a physical relationship, but the 'fantasy' aspect was thrown brutally in my face at that time...you figure it out), so we both ended up sleeping in the living room, her on the couch, me on the loveseat. I laid there listening to her cry herself to sleep for just over a week. After that, we went to an 'in-house seperation', where we both moved to seperate bedrooms in the house. We slowly got to where we could touch each other, but it was by no means intimate.

It was almost a month before she began to defrost. At first, it was a slow emotional thing...she finally started to talk nicer, stop blaming me for the loss she was suffering, and then start to actually discuss things with me. From there, the rest of it came back rather well, but I think that's because that's my wife's personality...she never does anything by halves.

I'd say that it sounds to me like you're still doing the right things...keep your calm, and simply show you love her by fulfilling her emotional needs that you know of. Have you read the 'The Five Languages of Love' yet? Start thinking about which of those languages she receives love the best in...and start using that language. TRUST ME...she may not even realize it, but she'll start feeling and seeing it that much better, even if she doesn't realize what's going on.

I haven't gotten to the book yet (I will). The somewhat sticky problem is that I know that physical affection is big with her -cuddling, hugs, kisses, etc and yet those are the areas I seem to be having the most trouble breaking through with. I'm still making the effort though. Maybe with time she'll warm up. Things are improved over where we were say a month ago, so maybe there is hope. I just need to recognize that she seems to have certain boundries in terms of physical contact. These boundries seem to change over time , so it's kind of a slow process of testing the waters, retreating , advancing, etc.

The other area she needs is emotional support,which she was getting from the OM -but right now, with a lot of her misery being over the OM, she won't even let me in there so I have to find opportunities where I can and I am most definitely on alert. Trying really hard to listen to her instead of trying to fix her problems too (this was a problem in the past).

Beyond that, we are much more engaged together in social activities -we spend most all of our free time together now and have started getting sitters regularly and are getting out by ourselves as frequently as we can.

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to be as emotionally supportive as I can and still in "doing" mode. Additionally, I'm making serious headway in eliminating all the negative behaviors I had that pushed her away as well. It's a lot to do, but it's not so hard. The hard part is waiting for positive results. They come in little moments and slow progress.

Cards wrote:



Cards, a month ago you wouldnt have been able to write this. You are "gettin it" arent you?

Sys, Cards is in recovery and soon your W will be too, give her some time and space, and be supportive and YOU most of all. She too, will eventually get it too. Watch out for potholes in the road to recovery though my friend

beavis

Yes, Beavis, I think I do get it. The fact is, intellectually I "got it" even as the EA was going on. It was just that the emotional/heart part was pulling SO hard against it. I described in my thread many times the fight of brain vs. heart-KNOWING the illogic of it all, but being powerless to overcome it. Those darn EN's are so strong!!!

That's why I encouraged Sys to read my thread so he can understand the turmoil & confusion his W was/is in. It is a very unsettling place. I would also encourage his W to come here so she knows she is not alone in her dealings with this, and also she can get direction and support when she feels weak. I don't know what I would've done without this site. It's a 24 hour support line, that allowed me to express and vent, sometimes stopping contact with OM.

Sys, let us know how you're doing! Thanks for your support Beavis!

JL wrote:


JL, just to let you know, I would never punish her, I would not want to hurt her in any way. There has been enough suffering and pain, it is time to close that chapter.

Like you so wisely stated, it IS an opportunity to celebrate our relationship together, to seize the chance and make it better than it was before. Like a phoenix, rising from the ashes of a firestrom.

I am ready to get off the emotional rollercoaster now, punch my ticket, I am ready to shoot for the moon.

beavis

Hi Cards,

Jut finished going through your thread -wow such insight! I can't say I liked all that it revealed, but it does fill in some of the blanks -I think. If nothing else, it broadens my perspective -thanks.

I would love for my wife to come out here and to read your thread in particular. I will give her the link, but I'm not counting on her actually getting out here. She seems pretty hell bent on doing this on her own, with the MC and a few of her friends for support. I 'll do my best to sell her on the idea that here she can read about if not talk to a lot of others in the same boat. We'll see.

Thanks

Sys-

All my thoughts and feelings certainly may not apply to your W, but I do think there are a certain number of "foggy" thoughts that apply to many of us. You can tell by the thread that the w/d process is a seesaw of emotions. I actually should go back and read it myself soon, but I will wait until I'm sure I am strong enough that the memories brought back of OM won't have much effect.

I think the bottom line is that both parties have to endure a rollercoaster of painful emotions before meeting at some point towards the end of the withdrawal process and constructively having conversations about the saving the M. Before this point both are in such chaotic frames of mind, and neither can really help each other a whole lot. The hard part is, both have such different needs during those weeks just following d-day. And in our cases, it is all new ground for both.

I hope that the MC & her friends can lend enough support for her. I confided in only one friend a few weeks ago. She was very supportive, but not nearly as accessible as this site!!!



Is there anything in particular that was disturbing to you? Keep us posted!

I suppose it was just the intensity of the attatchment to the EA post d-day. That desperate struggle to get him out of your mind and to resist the temptation. In the early days after the revelation, my wife would say things like , I may not be in touch with him, but he's in my every thought and it killed me -at least she was honest :P

But I do appreciate the insight to the struggle and even the unwillingness to cooperate and the sense that you and others couldn't love your H's again.

That is one of my biggest worries -what if we get past all this reasonbly well, yet can't reconnect? My wife says she's been out of love with me for some time before the EA began. That she was resolved for a long time to be content to be marrried to her best friend, but once the EA began, she felt she owed herself that happiness. I realize that it's all fantasy and clouded thoughts, but I hope that she can get past that idea that she is somehow owed an ideal relationship and that just because we've had our problems that we can't have a great relationship down the road.

Sys- It would be great if your wife would get on here and at least read how us WW's are coping and getting through the EA and trying to move forward with our M's. I know for me, this site has been more helpful than MC. My husband and I only went to 3 MC sessions.

It was good that you read through Card's thread. I don't think my husband understood how intense the EA was for me as well at first and how my mind kept wanting to dwell and talk about the OM.

Cards - just a quick question about you confiding in a friend. How did your friend react? My husband would not let me confide in ANYONE.

Sys-



I know that is exactly what is so hard for my H to believe - that after just "chatting" on the pc for 3 or 4 months could lead to such intense/love-like feelings. He continually wanted to minimize what it was, while I was trying to express my feelings to him. Try to keep in mind the addiction aspects and drug-like trance the constant IM had on us. The constant reinforcements from the OM meeting those EN's was the DRUG!! Even early on in my w/d, I could explain to my H that it is more about the ADDICTION properties of OM, than OM himself. It sounds silly, but try not to take it personally. At some point it was not about choosing OM over H, it was that I HAD to have OM because I was addicted to him!



Yes, this is where my H & I are at, too. I have admitted to my H that I don't know where my love is towards him. But if your W is at this point where she is at least talking about & pondering these things, she is at least looking at the M. I would think you would have to be mostly out of the fog and fantasy to realistically discuss the M. This is the point where we begin our work on the M. For us (if you read the recent days of my thread) we have to start by just spending some time together to try to reconnect. That's what I plan for this weekend.

I hate to harp on this, Sys, but had I not been "married" to this site over the last few weeks, I would not have been nearly as hopeful about my M as I am now. Just reading on the site, getting book recommendations, and having supportive posters such as Karegh, Gentlsoul, Suzet, and others tell their stories have given me hope for my M as well.

These are all just my opinions, hope something helps.

She was actually there almost from the beginning. She was telling me from the start that we should be worried about the marriage, not the OM. But I couldn't see how we could realistically even begin to fix the marriage with him still in the picture.

One of my W's early complaints was that I was making it all about the OM and not the marriage -waht else could I do? I still worry about it.

To fill in some info, she's know the OM for several years and had turned to him as a confident regarding her unhappiness in our marriage. One thing led to another. Man, he got the crib sheet as to what I wasn't doing for her and could step right up and do all those things -consciously or not. I know how that is. I've been aproached by women in the past who were upset with their relationships. I can't speak for all men, but for my part, when I hear a woman complaining to me about her rotten BF/H, all I can interpret that as is fishing for something new (me?). I can imagine how the OM saw an opportunity (he was a lonely guy, she was a good friend and very desireable).

Sys-

I should have clarified a bit better. If your W is GENUINELY talking about your M I think that is a good sign. I spoke with my H right after d-day about our M because I knew the fantasy was over AND I didn't want our family destroyed, but my mind was still on OM for quite some time. I still have OM thoughts, but for 3 or 4 weeks I have been sincere when I talk to my H about repairing our M.

As hard as it is for you to hear your W say she's thinking of OM, it actually will facilitate her w/d process if you can listen. Withdrawal takes a long time and just gradually fades. She is trying to be honest with you, and she will step back into reality quicker if the secretness of the OM is out in the open. Her being honest & sharing with you will may also begin to meet an EN of hers. That was true for me, part of what is missing in our M is sharing of feelings. How long has your W been in w/d and without contact? It seems as though we are on similar timelines.

I think it's perfectly natural for you to focus on the OM when discussing the EA. I know for my H it hit him to the core. He felt like a failure, inadequate, etc. But after the dust settled we both realized that the problems in the marriage were a huge contributing factor. In fact, my H readily admitted to his failure in meeting my needs. As withdrawal diminishes I am much better able to see clearly what the EA was, and now see our M and the work we have ahead.

Again, just my opinions and how they relate to my situation.

As far as my situation, on d-day my wife talked about what led to her unhappiness, listing out all the problems, but didn't specifically say she wanted to work on the marriage. She did agree to go to MC, but at first I think just to smooth things out -we were both so violently miserable. The next phase was to basically say that she was dealing with the grief over the end of the EA and saying that she had to focus on that and wasn't ready to jump into actively working on the marriage. I think now we are in a transition from that -she has told me she is feeling both hopeful and apprehensive about moving forward. Seems she still has plenty of doubts about us but is seeing a future together as a possibility. She is getting more and more with the program , doing our homework, etc. Our MC has been really good about being a cheerleader for our marriage. In a gentle, but continous way, he keeps pointing out the good things we have and have had, the benefits of staying together, his opinion that thre really isn't anything unfixable in our relationship, etc.

And yeah, I've told her that even if she can't discuss her feelings about the OM directly, that I'm here to support her in whatever way I can, even if it just means giving her space or keeping the kids out of her hair. There were a few occasions (like the day she notified the OM of the real NC) that I came home to handle the kids and let her deal with her feelings as best she could. So far that's been the majority of what I've been able to do -just make her way smoother where I can. We've also begun IMing each other while I'm at work and when she has a hard time, even though I'm not with her, I try to lend a sympathetic ear, nad just be there for her.

Hi Sys - It really sounds like you and your wife are heading in the right direction even though it seems like a slow process for you. And you have given her so much support to help her work through the EA! I know how hard that was for me and having to deal with kids and stuff at the same time!

Your wife's situation with being friends with the OM first is a little like mine. I became friends with the OM for a period of 6-7 months before the EA started. This OM was actually helping me get over another OM! All the sharing about our marriages started to make us care for each other too much and it led right into the EA. Typical! Your wife was friends for such a long time with this OM, that I'm sure that her thoughts are really clouded (now and about your marriage in the past) because she had talked to him for so long. Your MC seems to be helping you both along. Keep pushing forward and keep supporting your wife.

Another facet of this that I'd like to put out there for discussion is that one of the core problems seems right now to be my wife feeling lost.

She tells me she feels she's lost herself and doesn't know what she wants anymore. She thinks that getting back in to the workforce might be a help, and I 've encouraged her to do so.

She's been basically at home for the last 6 years, first due to an injury and then due to our relocation and her subsequent pregnancy and a second relocation (never got the chance to settle) and then home or the least 4.5 years being a mommy. Iknwo that she loves being a mom, but totally appreciate that she misses the fulfillment both socially and profesionally of having a meaningful job. She also often laments that she feels she isn't contributing to the household financially and would like to do so. Although we are doing fine, she feels like she wouldlike to be able for us to do some extras and she would like to be able to provide that.

Now, I do get a bit suspiscious at times b/c her big push to find work came at the peak of her EA. In hindsight is tseems to me that she was laying the groundwork for future indiependence regardless of what she was telling me about contributing ot he household budget. Since it came out, she has made a less fevered attempt at finding work and says she's really afraid of being rejected for a job (due to the scarcity of opportunities that match her experience and schedule). Now she is basically putting off the job search until after our summer vacation (didn't want to get a job and wreck our vacation plans).

Anyway, this whole sense of "loosing" herself is of great concern to me b/c I can't help but wonder how much progress we can make until that resolves -or is it all part of the fog?

Sys-

That feeling of 'losing herself' is likely part of the fog too. My wife felt the same way when she was still in the withdrawl...she started to look for all kinds of things to make her feel like her 'old self' again. Talked about getting a job (to which I helped...helped her with her resume, picked up applications, helped her fill them out, etc...), started listening to country music (she used to listen to country as a teen...), etc... But, my wife too never really followed through on getting a job. When she came back out of the fog, she realized that she was needed where she was, and she wasn't really unhappy with doing what she was doing...she was unhappy because she CHOSE to be unhappy. Depression was part of it too...

You commented about your wife not being happy in years...that strikes a chord with me as well. My wife claimed to be 'unhappy for years' during d-day and withdrawl...which really bothered me, because I could only see the unhappiness starting about a year prior. I had KNOWN she was unhappy for that year, but was powerless to change it. But I'd never seen her really unhappy prior to that...it baffled me.

But...I've learned on this site...that WS's re-write history. And my wife can see now that she did so. She was convinced in her mind that she'd not been happy in years...but now when she looks back, she knows that it was a matter of months, not years. She was also convinced that the A had been going on for a LONG time...several months. After I started looking at it, I found that it had only been about six weeks...that surprised the heck out of her, but she knew it was true from her own looking back at it.

Don't let it all worry you at this point...just concentrate on meeting the needs you can, and communicating with her about everything. If you don't know how to meet a need, talk with her about it. At the same time, talk with her about YOUR needs. Let her know how much you appreciate it when she meets YOUR needs to.

Hang in there friend.