Hello all,

I'm new here and so I suppose I have a lot of catching up to do. My story probably isn't anything new, but this is all so new and awful to me and I'm here looking for whatever advice and support I can find.

I should probably start with a recap of where I've been. My wife an I have been together for 14 years and married for nearly 10. A little less than 3 months ago, I accidentally stumbled upon an IM session my wife was having with an acquaintance of hers from an on-line game. She's known him for several years and as far as I knew, they were strictly platonic friends. Well, the content of the conversation left little to the imagination and I went into a panic. I confronted her immediately. Very quickly she told me what was going on, how she had tried to tell me about it several times but couldn't. Apparently she had been very unhappy in our marriage for a number of years, had confided in this guy and was now in love with him. They have never met in real life, but I know now that they had a pretty heavy IM and phone relationship for a short time. She went on to tell me that although she still "loved" me, she was no longer "in love" with me. Although she said she had tried, she could never bring herself to tell me that she was unhappy in the marriage. As I said, this has apparently been for years -I had no clue. Things weren't great between us, but I chalked it up to general exhaustion from chasing our kid around. I figured we were in a slump and things would get better. I was quite wrong.

Anyway, I wasn't willing to simply walk out or kick her out. Despite it all, I dearly love my wife and do not want to lose her. I saw this as a big wake-up call, and hoped for the best that we could get things fixed. During that first conversation, I asked her if she was willing to go to MC with me and she agreed. I also asked her that for the duration, would she cut off contact with the OM. She agreed to that as well.

We set about to find a MC, and in the intervening weeks we limped through an emotional minefield of misery, jealousy, anger, and paranoia. We had frequent emotional melt-downs, irrational attempts at intimacy, you name it. It was a very cloudy, confused time. I had no idea how to handle it. I was completely raw and broken. I felt like the earth had opened up and I was in freefall with no bottom in sight. Worst of all were the panic attacks. I was convinced that at any moment she was going to pack up the kids and leave, or that she was still in touch with the OM. Well, that last part was true. I caught her via some snooping and confronted her about that. She told me that she was going to bring it up at our first MC session where she felt safe saying it. I was enraged, and self-righteous. We nearly ended it there, but cooler heads prevailed. Frankly, she has no where to go and no current means to support herself or the kids. I believe that kept her there in the beginning and possibly now.

Anyway, after that, she did cut back the contact (she rationalized a number of reasons to maintain contact -I just ate it waiting for the MC to intervene). The MC brokered a 3 month NC agreement which she accepted and I have every reason to believe that she is honoring. Not to say that the paranoia went away, but it is much improved. Since then things have leveled off. At least I don't feel like I'm drowning anymore and the panic attacks are few and far between (we have both gone on Zoloft recently to get us over the hump).

So here we are 6 weeks in to the NC and things are improving marginally. She had a really bad first 3-4 weeks, but she freely admits that her mood is greatly improved (this was before the Zoloft even). We get along well and the emotional outbursts have mostly subsided. We both still have our days, but we both agree that if we had to put it on a scale, that we would say that we are about where we were before everything blew-up. It's not where either one of us wants to be, but at least it seems that the slide has stopped and it seems to me that my wife is somewhat willing to entertain the idea of trying to work things out.

On the hopeful side, she is more and more talking about us in a long-term sense, making plans further down the road. She also told me that she was both hopeful and apprehensive about "us" -still trying to get the specifics on that one. She is very closed to me though, not letting much out. Mostly she seems to still be dealing with the end of the EA, and isn't really ready to get to work on "us" in any way other than maintaining the NC and trying to just get along.I try to find hope in whatever little thing I can at this point, but I'm still so uncertain -mainly because she is so closed to me. Earlier on in the whole event she told me she didn't want to give me any false hope (worse, she gave a lot of reason to have no hope), as a result, she really won't say anything other than that she has seen a huge improvement in my behavior that lead a lot of her misery in the marriage. At the same time she openly wonders if it's a little too late.

I am ready to go -have been from the start, but my wife is very hesitant. She still seems to be dealing with the death of the EA and isn't quite ready to look to me as much more than that guy she's married to. We are doing a lot of things together, we talk, we go out, we get along really well, but there is such a distance between us under it all. That is my big issue right now. I desperately want to start rebuilding, to get close again, but whenever I make an attempt at simple intimacy (hold her hand, give her a hug, a good-night kiss, compliment her even) I get an icy feeling from her, as though she is just barely able to politely accept that limited warmth from me. Since it all came out she has retreated from me significantly in ways that even when things were bad she didn't.

I miss her.

I miss us.

The funny thing is that when we go to bed, we still fall asleep in each other's arms -almost a reflexive behavior. For those few minutes I feel like we are relaxed and happy with each other. In the silence and dark, we can connect on a non-verbal level and feel close, but it fades with the dawn and in the light of the day, the distance is there again. These mixed signals really confuse me and she won't talk much about it. She doesn't seem to understand herself well at all and seems so lost (she has said as much). I want to help her find her way back to herself and me and me to her , but I don't know where to begin. Our MC has basically been slowly trying to just get us reacquainted with each other -which is fine and is working I think, but I miss her so much, especially since she's right here in front of me.

So that's where we've been and where we are. I have a thread on another forum that has a bit more detail if anyone wants to slog through it.

my thread on Love Shack.org


Thanks for being here and I hope to hear from you.

Hey there,

Friend, I read your story and I wanted to tell you my impression is one of hope for you two. There are many things in your letter that show a trend towards recovery.

Though it also looks like you both have a long way to go too. I also am a BS, and like you I missed my wife during the early weeks post A break-up, I was miserable, felt like falling into a miserable abyss as well.

I too got the old, I love you, but Im not in love with you spiel. (I think every BS gets that at some point).

You are going to have to give her time, time, patience and time. Time to lift from the fog of the OM, time to see you being strong enough to stay and support her, time for her to see how deeply you care for her and love her deeply. My friend, our stories are eerily similar.

But I wanted to give you some inspiration. My relationship with my W, post-A is now based on honesty, understanding and meeting each others needs. Needs that were not being fulfilled pre-A. I have nothing but the utmost love and respect for my W and am so happy to be in recovery with her now.

take care

beavis

Sys-

"Owl" here....had issues with my moniker here, so not sure how to go back to using the old name.

Glad you made it here to post, my friend. You'll find a lot more input here than you had on LS...and there are a few ladies out there that have been right where your wife was...and is now. (Cards, 2B...your cue my friends!)

Hang in there.

Welcome, sorry to meet you under these circumstances.

First, you're in a LOT better sitch than most BSs you'll read about here. She's been hooked on a fantasy and fantasies very, very rarely turn out to be what they were cracked up to be. In one sense, the very best thing that could happen to her would be to actually meet Mr. Goodbar and have the fantasy collapse like a house off cards - but don't do this.

Get hot on Plan A and make yourself into an irrestible guy - the one she married. Take away all her reasons for why she made the decision to get sucked in to Mr. Gamer. Become the very best Dad you can possibly be.

Since she's willing to go to MC, find the emotional needs questionaire on this site and both of you fill it out - find out what needs you need to improve on. DO NOT expect her to fully reciprocate right now.

In short - become a model husband. This doesn't mean your prior shortcomings are to blame for her betrayal - just that in order to get her enthusiastic participation in rebuilding the marriage, you have to do most of the work and sacrifice for the time being.

Get a copy of Surviving An Affair. Inhale it.

Expect more relapses with OM and more alien speak from her. When this happens, keep your calm and simply tell her how disrespected and hurt this makes you feel. All "I" statements - no "you" statements.


Who's idea was the 3 months? Was it this or nothing? This alarms me because what happens at the end of three months? Is this MC trying to help you save your marriage, or just trying to help your wife decide if she wants a divorce?

WAT,

I thouroughly "enjoyed" your quick start guidelines. Wish I had a copy in hand on D-day if you know what I mean.

I love that bit about alienspeak. I distinctly remember thinking, what alien uncrewed my wife's head, climbed in and is now speaking on her behalf? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

take care

beavis

My pleasure, beave.

I take it your WS is [censored]?

WAT

Well...no actually. She may have acted like one for awhile, but she is the kindest,loving, most amazing person on the earth to me...

beavis

Actually, she is a Gentle Soul isn't she Beavis?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I haven't had a chance to speak with you before but I have conversed with your W before. It is good to see you here.

God Bless,

JL

Sysyphus,

That rock getting sort of heavy?? Well, give this thing some time and have some patience with your W. It will take time for her to come out of the "fog" or as WAT says it will take time for the "Mothership" to ship her brains back.

Please do as WAT and others have suggested get into the information on this site and do a lot of reading. It will help you to realize that she is acting "normal", the timeline is about right, you two are about where most are at this time, and there is a lot of hope for your marriage.

Do work on Plan A, but I will warn you it is NOT for wimps. This is tough stuff, and it will be many months before she realizes what you have done for the marriage and her. If you can save this marriage, you will have saved her from making a huge fool out of herself, as well as hurting a lot of people worse than she has done so far.

So hang in there, give this lots of time and patience, and start reading man. There is a ton of information out there for you to work with.

God Bless,

JL

Yes JL,

She IS a gentle soul. I am blessed to have her in my life, I love her so. I have read your postings to her and always am amazed at how insightful and on-target they are. Thank you for that.

By the way, we made it to 100 days of NC yesterday by my calculation, you may want to search for that post in recovery. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

thanks my friend

beavis

Beavis,

I read the thread. Very nice, very nice indeed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know when posting to her she came across as very sincere and someone that just sort of lost her way for awhile. It seems she has found it and that is a credit to you and to her. You both are a wonderful additions to this site.

I would like to suggest one thing to you. Whatever you do, work on releaving her guilt, she will need your help and you will both profit when it is gone. I suspect she will, as many WS's do, sort of hang on to it to punish herself, and for fear that she will "forget" things. She will not "forget" so neither she nor you need fear that. And Beavis, I think you realize that she does NOT need any punishment at this point.

Her affair gave you an interesting OPPORTUNITY and you were smart enough to seize it. It was the OPPORTUNITY to show her the depth of your love, and the strength you had to fight for the marriage. You have used it well, and she now knows beyond any doubt where you feelings about her lie.

Further, she is now been given an OPPORTUNITY as well, and it seems she is using it wisely, and that is to show you how much she truely values you.

You two are very lucky people Beavis because sometimes the OPPORTUNITY to see the good in the fires of the test is missed. Neither of you missed it and your marriage will be the better for it.

God Bless,

JL

Sys-

Hope your Tuesday went well. I know that this has been a day of stress for you in the past, worried about contact with the OM.

I agree completely with that. You know, at 3 months into the process, I was still crying everytime I had ten minutes to myself. I was still so uncertain and emotional. So, your feelings are also pretty normal for the timeline.

Hang in there, Sys. You're doing fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi sysyphus and welcome! I'm sorry to hear of the situation you are in, but there is hope! You will find many here that have been right where you are and are experiencing a new love with their spouse they never thought was possible.

I'm a FWW and had a EA online as did your wife. It's a very tough addiction to stop, let alone move forward with your marriage. My D-Day was 12/29/04, but I had continued to have some contact after D-Day as did your wife. The last contact I had was about 6 weeks ago and it is over for me.

All that you describe about your wife is very normal for her to experience. There are some positives you stated in that "she is more and more talking about us in a long-term sense, making plans further down the road."


This is also quite normal. It's very important that she maintains NC ( I wish I had form the beginning!). As more and more time goes by with NC she will start to "let you in". I am not sure why your MC suggested 3 months with NC. NC should be forever!

The best advice I could give you is to continue to support your wife in all that she is feeling. These feelings and emotions are very tough to work through. I know for me, I needed my husband to listen to me and understand me.

It seems as if you are doing all the right things with spending alot of time together and going out, communicating etc. Her mixed messages to you are normal for what she is feeling. She is still in a fog and trying to get out. It will take time and she needs your constant love and support to get out of this fog.

Feel free to ask any questions. Also you may want to check out a thread by cardsonly called "HELP! WITHDRAWING FROM PAINFUL ONLINE AFFAIR"

2B wrote:


2B, you have made such progress in a relatively short time, keep it up. I am proud of you, your husband should be too. Do you ever look back at your earlier posts and see how your perspective regarding your M has changed, for the better?

Sys, take heart, 2B,Cards, countless others have been where your W is. You too have a strong base to work from, and seem to be headed down the right path for your M. You may trip on a few weeds on the path, but it will become more defined over time.

take care

beavis

S

Hi Sys-

My H could write the same story you wrote, with the exceptions that we have not attended MC yet and I did not have a prior friendship with OM.

Please read my thread if you want to hear what your W may have been feeling. I started posting about 2 weeks after the EA really ended (there were a couple more contacts, but the IM ended by mid-Feb). I was in horrible withdrawal at the time I started posting. You can follow the thread all the way up to now and see what me & H are still dealing with.

Our timelines are similar and I certainly don't have all the answers at this point, as I am still struggling in some areas. But KNOW that the passage of time will help you both. It sounds like she is mostly out of the "fog" and realizes now that the thing to focus on is the M.

While basically being back to where you were before the EA may be comforting to you, that realization for me was painful. Having been in a fantasyland where someone was meeting all these EN's, then the loss of those needs being met, made me realize how bad it really was before the EA. In that sense, your W may want to repair the M even more so than you because she KNOWS the disparity between what she felt before the EA & how the EA made her feel. Even so, she may be fighting the fact of being able to recover feelings for you. This is where I am.

If you don't read my whole story, you may just want to look at the last couple weeks where many people give advice about trying to reconnect, working to meet each other's needs, the importance of spending time together. Fortunately, and unfortunately, these stories have a commonality and a predictably that can help us know what's ahead. The books recommended on this site are great, and Karegh (Owl) has recommended some good ones too. Reading and posting helps tremendously.

I'm guessing here, but I would think that the MC actually didn't have a bad idea for the 3 months timeline. Think about it (Cards, 2B, feel free to comment on this), but would a WS who is still deep in the fog be more willing to agree to an NC that has a potential end as opposed to agreeing to NEVER contact the OM again? I'd guess that the MC was thinking that three months is typically enough time for the worst of the witdrawl and fog to clear (if NC is maintained faithfully during this time), and for the WS to begin to WANT to work on the MR.

They say that it takes three weeks to make/break a habit...and while the withdrawl doesn't end in three weeks, the habit of spending all day IMing and messaging the OM can be broken. Once THAT habit is done, then it's more a matter of getting through the withdrawl.

I think that if the MC'd asked her to commit to NC forever, she would have balked, not agreed to it, and been more likely to give in and break it. Having a set timeline (that is still long enough to give a chance for the withdrawl/fog to clear) probably made it a little more easier for her to consider.

Just my thoughts.

I'd made my book recommendations to Sys already on the 'other' site...LOL.

I think Khareg (sp?) I know him as Owl, has it right. The MC was trynig to broker the deal at a point where our relationship was so fragile that I think 3 months was palatble to my wife. The way it has been put to me is :3 months, which could turn to 6 mos, a year, forever. Already it seems pretty apparent to me that the NC is permanent. She has really gone through the worst of it. I know she feels really guilty about abandoning the OM -she still has concerns for his feelings as well and that is causing a lot of her grief, but all that said, I beleive that intellectually, she knows it's over.

As for the rest of you, thanks so much, especially you Owl, for getting me over here. The other board served it's purpose and got me through some horrendous times -can't ever repay that debt. This board is already wonderful, especially having an opportunity to hear advice from the other side of the equation -thanks everyone!

You know, ever since that last bad Tuesday and the fact that we talked about my paranoia, I've been fine. The paranoia is really under control now. At this point, my greatest worries are in the "where do we go from here" department.

Thanks for asking )

K, I'd have to agree with you on the NC that the MC proposed. I would say that the MC realized that there was withdrawal going on and it would be too early to make many demands on her. A foggy WS will be more likely to agree to 90 days of NC rather than NEVER having contact again. In the fantasy of the EA foggy mind, NEVER is really hard to imagine. I have not even reached the 90 day point yet but even at this point I know that if I made contact now it would at least be a thought-out decision, not a contact made out of desperation to get a "fix".

K - I can understand the 3 month NC now and especially after what sys wrote. If I think back to D-Day and even to prior thoughts of the OM and I trying to end the EA, I could not ever fathom NC forever! I knew in my head that is what had to be done, but I did not want to endure the pain of NC forever. But, I have to wonder if the OM and I were given a 3 month NC agreement, would I feel hopeful to be with the OM at the end of the 3 months and feel different about working on my marraige? I cannot answer that, but it makes me wonder.

What concerns me about sys and his wife, is his wife not wanting any physical touch and her being "icy". I had only felt that way when I was in the EA and had contact with the OM. When the EA was over, I needed to be physically near my husband. Do other WS's feel as sys's wife? Cards, did you experience this?

2BN-

Good point, 2B, we may have been tempted to hold on to that fact of the 90 days and plan to go back. Maybe even arranging with OM to resume at that time. It's hard to say what our foggy mind would do, as it's still possible that the 90 days would do its job and help us see the light.

As far as being physical with my H, immediately after the end of the EA I NEEDED it. The withdrawal of love from the EA had to be replaced! I needed more touch & affection from my H than usual, especially in those early weeks (much to his surprise!).

Yeah, that is often on my mind, but I don't know that that is what is going on. With all the deception involved in the first place, I can't help but wonder. In the meantime, i have to go on what my gut tells me and that is that she is sincere and not looking at the 90 days as a stop-gap measure. If that were the case, I think she'd be laying the groundwork for an exit, b/c that is where that would leave us.

As for the physical affection, we do have some, but like I said, I feel like she has withdrawn a lot. The first weeks we did cling to each other a lot -more me to her than her to me I think. She later told me it seemed weird to her so I backed off. One of the problems we had in the marriage was that we had over the years become less and less physically demonstrative of our affection in our day to day lives. So to have me suddenly trying to do that in over-drive was probably a bit of a shock to her. So my point is, she was used to not being overly touchy feely with me. Now I'm slowly trying to bring that back and like I said, having mixed results.

Another thing that perhaps makes my situation different is that I discovered her EA. Not sure if that makes a difference of not, but to suddenly be revealed like that left both of us in a weird place. There was no tearful confession, instead I got the "I don't love you, I love him thing". So a lot of distance was put there right up front.

Sys, I wouldn't worry about the 90 day thing right now. As I said, the withdrawing over that amount of time should give her SOME clarity on the situation in any case.

I did the clinging to my H, which was a shock to him. We had been less demonstrative with each other over time, too, and I think my needing to be close to him made him made him REALLY wonder what was going on. At that time he seemed to understand about the "addiction" process and withdrawal. It is now, these days, that he can't seem to understand how I would still be having withdrawal.

Your situation is not different from mine, my H discovered my EA, too. I did not break it off, then 2 weeks later OM W discovered us. He denied it to her, then she key logged and had proof. He was given an ultimatum and that is what finally ended it another week or 2 after that. So the fact that the EA did not die a natural death makes it harder for us WS to end the A. Our worlds collide and crash, we are too addicted and too much in a fog to think right and do the right thing, and it takes time to withdraw.

Sys-

I too 'discovered' the affair. Got that same message you did. "I'm not in love with you anymore, I'm in love with him." Then it was amended to the standard "I love you, but not in love with you."

In my case, my wife went stone cold on me immediately after the A ended and she was told by her OM 'don't come'. There was NO hugging, kissing, touching of any kind. Neither of us could stand to go to our bedroom (hard to explain since they didn't have a physical relationship, but the 'fantasy' aspect was thrown brutally in my face at that time...you figure it out), so we both ended up sleeping in the living room, her on the couch, me on the loveseat. I laid there listening to her cry herself to sleep for just over a week. After that, we went to an 'in-house seperation', where we both moved to seperate bedrooms in the house. We slowly got to where we could touch each other, but it was by no means intimate.

It was almost a month before she began to defrost. At first, it was a slow emotional thing...she finally started to talk nicer, stop blaming me for the loss she was suffering, and then start to actually discuss things with me. From there, the rest of it came back rather well, but I think that's because that's my wife's personality...she never does anything by halves.

I'd say that it sounds to me like you're still doing the right things...keep your calm, and simply show you love her by fulfilling her emotional needs that you know of. Have you read the 'The Five Languages of Love' yet? Start thinking about which of those languages she receives love the best in...and start using that language. TRUST ME...she may not even realize it, but she'll start feeling and seeing it that much better, even if she doesn't realize what's going on.

I haven't gotten to the book yet (I will). The somewhat sticky problem is that I know that physical affection is big with her -cuddling, hugs, kisses, etc and yet those are the areas I seem to be having the most trouble breaking through with. I'm still making the effort though. Maybe with time she'll warm up. Things are improved over where we were say a month ago, so maybe there is hope. I just need to recognize that she seems to have certain boundries in terms of physical contact. These boundries seem to change over time , so it's kind of a slow process of testing the waters, retreating , advancing, etc.

The other area she needs is emotional support,which she was getting from the OM -but right now, with a lot of her misery being over the OM, she won't even let me in there so I have to find opportunities where I can and I am most definitely on alert. Trying really hard to listen to her instead of trying to fix her problems too (this was a problem in the past).

Beyond that, we are much more engaged together in social activities -we spend most all of our free time together now and have started getting sitters regularly and are getting out by ourselves as frequently as we can.

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to be as emotionally supportive as I can and still in "doing" mode. Additionally, I'm making serious headway in eliminating all the negative behaviors I had that pushed her away as well. It's a lot to do, but it's not so hard. The hard part is waiting for positive results. They come in little moments and slow progress.

Cards wrote:



Cards, a month ago you wouldnt have been able to write this. You are "gettin it" arent you?

Sys, Cards is in recovery and soon your W will be too, give her some time and space, and be supportive and YOU most of all. She too, will eventually get it too. Watch out for potholes in the road to recovery though my friend

beavis

Yes, Beavis, I think I do get it. The fact is, intellectually I "got it" even as the EA was going on. It was just that the emotional/heart part was pulling SO hard against it. I described in my thread many times the fight of brain vs. heart-KNOWING the illogic of it all, but being powerless to overcome it. Those darn EN's are so strong!!!

That's why I encouraged Sys to read my thread so he can understand the turmoil & confusion his W was/is in. It is a very unsettling place. I would also encourage his W to come here so she knows she is not alone in her dealings with this, and also she can get direction and support when she feels weak. I don't know what I would've done without this site. It's a 24 hour support line, that allowed me to express and vent, sometimes stopping contact with OM.

Sys, let us know how you're doing! Thanks for your support Beavis!

JL wrote:


JL, just to let you know, I would never punish her, I would not want to hurt her in any way. There has been enough suffering and pain, it is time to close that chapter.

Like you so wisely stated, it IS an opportunity to celebrate our relationship together, to seize the chance and make it better than it was before. Like a phoenix, rising from the ashes of a firestrom.

I am ready to get off the emotional rollercoaster now, punch my ticket, I am ready to shoot for the moon.

beavis

Hi Cards,

Jut finished going through your thread -wow such insight! I can't say I liked all that it revealed, but it does fill in some of the blanks -I think. If nothing else, it broadens my perspective -thanks.

I would love for my wife to come out here and to read your thread in particular. I will give her the link, but I'm not counting on her actually getting out here. She seems pretty hell bent on doing this on her own, with the MC and a few of her friends for support. I 'll do my best to sell her on the idea that here she can read about if not talk to a lot of others in the same boat. We'll see.

Thanks

Sys-

All my thoughts and feelings certainly may not apply to your W, but I do think there are a certain number of "foggy" thoughts that apply to many of us. You can tell by the thread that the w/d process is a seesaw of emotions. I actually should go back and read it myself soon, but I will wait until I'm sure I am strong enough that the memories brought back of OM won't have much effect.

I think the bottom line is that both parties have to endure a rollercoaster of painful emotions before meeting at some point towards the end of the withdrawal process and constructively having conversations about the saving the M. Before this point both are in such chaotic frames of mind, and neither can really help each other a whole lot. The hard part is, both have such different needs during those weeks just following d-day. And in our cases, it is all new ground for both.

I hope that the MC & her friends can lend enough support for her. I confided in only one friend a few weeks ago. She was very supportive, but not nearly as accessible as this site!!!



Is there anything in particular that was disturbing to you? Keep us posted!

I suppose it was just the intensity of the attatchment to the EA post d-day. That desperate struggle to get him out of your mind and to resist the temptation. In the early days after the revelation, my wife would say things like , I may not be in touch with him, but he's in my every thought and it killed me -at least she was honest :P

But I do appreciate the insight to the struggle and even the unwillingness to cooperate and the sense that you and others couldn't love your H's again.

That is one of my biggest worries -what if we get past all this reasonbly well, yet can't reconnect? My wife says she's been out of love with me for some time before the EA began. That she was resolved for a long time to be content to be marrried to her best friend, but once the EA began, she felt she owed herself that happiness. I realize that it's all fantasy and clouded thoughts, but I hope that she can get past that idea that she is somehow owed an ideal relationship and that just because we've had our problems that we can't have a great relationship down the road.

Sys- It would be great if your wife would get on here and at least read how us WW's are coping and getting through the EA and trying to move forward with our M's. I know for me, this site has been more helpful than MC. My husband and I only went to 3 MC sessions.

It was good that you read through Card's thread. I don't think my husband understood how intense the EA was for me as well at first and how my mind kept wanting to dwell and talk about the OM.

Cards - just a quick question about you confiding in a friend. How did your friend react? My husband would not let me confide in ANYONE.

Sys-



I know that is exactly what is so hard for my H to believe - that after just "chatting" on the pc for 3 or 4 months could lead to such intense/love-like feelings. He continually wanted to minimize what it was, while I was trying to express my feelings to him. Try to keep in mind the addiction aspects and drug-like trance the constant IM had on us. The constant reinforcements from the OM meeting those EN's was the DRUG!! Even early on in my w/d, I could explain to my H that it is more about the ADDICTION properties of OM, than OM himself. It sounds silly, but try not to take it personally. At some point it was not about choosing OM over H, it was that I HAD to have OM because I was addicted to him!



Yes, this is where my H & I are at, too. I have admitted to my H that I don't know where my love is towards him. But if your W is at this point where she is at least talking about & pondering these things, she is at least looking at the M. I would think you would have to be mostly out of the fog and fantasy to realistically discuss the M. This is the point where we begin our work on the M. For us (if you read the recent days of my thread) we have to start by just spending some time together to try to reconnect. That's what I plan for this weekend.

I hate to harp on this, Sys, but had I not been "married" to this site over the last few weeks, I would not have been nearly as hopeful about my M as I am now. Just reading on the site, getting book recommendations, and having supportive posters such as Karegh, Gentlsoul, Suzet, and others tell their stories have given me hope for my M as well.

These are all just my opinions, hope something helps.

She was actually there almost from the beginning. She was telling me from the start that we should be worried about the marriage, not the OM. But I couldn't see how we could realistically even begin to fix the marriage with him still in the picture.

One of my W's early complaints was that I was making it all about the OM and not the marriage -waht else could I do? I still worry about it.

To fill in some info, she's know the OM for several years and had turned to him as a confident regarding her unhappiness in our marriage. One thing led to another. Man, he got the crib sheet as to what I wasn't doing for her and could step right up and do all those things -consciously or not. I know how that is. I've been aproached by women in the past who were upset with their relationships. I can't speak for all men, but for my part, when I hear a woman complaining to me about her rotten BF/H, all I can interpret that as is fishing for something new (me?). I can imagine how the OM saw an opportunity (he was a lonely guy, she was a good friend and very desireable).

Sys-

I should have clarified a bit better. If your W is GENUINELY talking about your M I think that is a good sign. I spoke with my H right after d-day about our M because I knew the fantasy was over AND I didn't want our family destroyed, but my mind was still on OM for quite some time. I still have OM thoughts, but for 3 or 4 weeks I have been sincere when I talk to my H about repairing our M.

As hard as it is for you to hear your W say she's thinking of OM, it actually will facilitate her w/d process if you can listen. Withdrawal takes a long time and just gradually fades. She is trying to be honest with you, and she will step back into reality quicker if the secretness of the OM is out in the open. Her being honest & sharing with you will may also begin to meet an EN of hers. That was true for me, part of what is missing in our M is sharing of feelings. How long has your W been in w/d and without contact? It seems as though we are on similar timelines.

I think it's perfectly natural for you to focus on the OM when discussing the EA. I know for my H it hit him to the core. He felt like a failure, inadequate, etc. But after the dust settled we both realized that the problems in the marriage were a huge contributing factor. In fact, my H readily admitted to his failure in meeting my needs. As withdrawal diminishes I am much better able to see clearly what the EA was, and now see our M and the work we have ahead.

Again, just my opinions and how they relate to my situation.

As far as my situation, on d-day my wife talked about what led to her unhappiness, listing out all the problems, but didn't specifically say she wanted to work on the marriage. She did agree to go to MC, but at first I think just to smooth things out -we were both so violently miserable. The next phase was to basically say that she was dealing with the grief over the end of the EA and saying that she had to focus on that and wasn't ready to jump into actively working on the marriage. I think now we are in a transition from that -she has told me she is feeling both hopeful and apprehensive about moving forward. Seems she still has plenty of doubts about us but is seeing a future together as a possibility. She is getting more and more with the program , doing our homework, etc. Our MC has been really good about being a cheerleader for our marriage. In a gentle, but continous way, he keeps pointing out the good things we have and have had, the benefits of staying together, his opinion that thre really isn't anything unfixable in our relationship, etc.

And yeah, I've told her that even if she can't discuss her feelings about the OM directly, that I'm here to support her in whatever way I can, even if it just means giving her space or keeping the kids out of her hair. There were a few occasions (like the day she notified the OM of the real NC) that I came home to handle the kids and let her deal with her feelings as best she could. So far that's been the majority of what I've been able to do -just make her way smoother where I can. We've also begun IMing each other while I'm at work and when she has a hard time, even though I'm not with her, I try to lend a sympathetic ear, nad just be there for her.

Hi Sys - It really sounds like you and your wife are heading in the right direction even though it seems like a slow process for you. And you have given her so much support to help her work through the EA! I know how hard that was for me and having to deal with kids and stuff at the same time!

Your wife's situation with being friends with the OM first is a little like mine. I became friends with the OM for a period of 6-7 months before the EA started. This OM was actually helping me get over another OM! All the sharing about our marriages started to make us care for each other too much and it led right into the EA. Typical! Your wife was friends for such a long time with this OM, that I'm sure that her thoughts are really clouded (now and about your marriage in the past) because she had talked to him for so long. Your MC seems to be helping you both along. Keep pushing forward and keep supporting your wife.

Another facet of this that I'd like to put out there for discussion is that one of the core problems seems right now to be my wife feeling lost.

She tells me she feels she's lost herself and doesn't know what she wants anymore. She thinks that getting back in to the workforce might be a help, and I 've encouraged her to do so.

She's been basically at home for the last 6 years, first due to an injury and then due to our relocation and her subsequent pregnancy and a second relocation (never got the chance to settle) and then home or the least 4.5 years being a mommy. Iknwo that she loves being a mom, but totally appreciate that she misses the fulfillment both socially and profesionally of having a meaningful job. She also often laments that she feels she isn't contributing to the household financially and would like to do so. Although we are doing fine, she feels like she wouldlike to be able for us to do some extras and she would like to be able to provide that.

Now, I do get a bit suspiscious at times b/c her big push to find work came at the peak of her EA. In hindsight is tseems to me that she was laying the groundwork for future indiependence regardless of what she was telling me about contributing ot he household budget. Since it came out, she has made a less fevered attempt at finding work and says she's really afraid of being rejected for a job (due to the scarcity of opportunities that match her experience and schedule). Now she is basically putting off the job search until after our summer vacation (didn't want to get a job and wreck our vacation plans).

Anyway, this whole sense of "loosing" herself is of great concern to me b/c I can't help but wonder how much progress we can make until that resolves -or is it all part of the fog?

Sys-

That feeling of 'losing herself' is likely part of the fog too. My wife felt the same way when she was still in the withdrawl...she started to look for all kinds of things to make her feel like her 'old self' again. Talked about getting a job (to which I helped...helped her with her resume, picked up applications, helped her fill them out, etc...), started listening to country music (she used to listen to country as a teen...), etc... But, my wife too never really followed through on getting a job. When she came back out of the fog, she realized that she was needed where she was, and she wasn't really unhappy with doing what she was doing...she was unhappy because she CHOSE to be unhappy. Depression was part of it too...

You commented about your wife not being happy in years...that strikes a chord with me as well. My wife claimed to be 'unhappy for years' during d-day and withdrawl...which really bothered me, because I could only see the unhappiness starting about a year prior. I had KNOWN she was unhappy for that year, but was powerless to change it. But I'd never seen her really unhappy prior to that...it baffled me.

But...I've learned on this site...that WS's re-write history. And my wife can see now that she did so. She was convinced in her mind that she'd not been happy in years...but now when she looks back, she knows that it was a matter of months, not years. She was also convinced that the A had been going on for a LONG time...several months. After I started looking at it, I found that it had only been about six weeks...that surprised the heck out of her, but she knew it was true from her own looking back at it.

Don't let it all worry you at this point...just concentrate on meeting the needs you can, and communicating with her about everything. If you don't know how to meet a need, talk with her about it. At the same time, talk with her about YOUR needs. Let her know how much you appreciate it when she meets YOUR needs to.

Hang in there friend.

Hope all is going well, my friend. As you can see, I got my "Owl" name working, so I'll be posting under this name again. Hope it doesn't confuse you too much! LOL

I was reminded again this weekend of how the WS's perception is skewed during and immediately after the A. My wife and I talked about the A for a few while we were out on a date together, and ran into a car with plates from the state that her OM lives in.

It occurred to her how little she really knew about him, when she realized she had no idea what kind of car he drove.

I think that you'll see some of the same shift in your wife's case as well...the longer NC holds, the more she'll begin to see the A as it REALLY was...and at the same time, she'll begin to see your marriage in that same light as well.

Much easier to spell too Owl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the thoughts. Had a sort of neutral weekend. Nothing special really to report. As I 've said, I'm always hoping for some kind of a breaktrhough, but I'm pretty sure it's going to come in small bits at least for now. She does seem to be warming up a bit. More smiles, more interaction, just generally more "normal". I guess it's the big things that are missing that I notice more than the little things that are are showing up.

Keeping the faith!

Hmmmm, having a bit of a frustrating time today. After feeling a bit hopeful that things were at least pointing in the right direct if not actually moving forward, I'm getting a sense of balking on my wife's part. Maybe I'm just noticing every little thing, but it seems like she's annoyed by many of my efforts to meet ENs especially over the last few days.

Is it bad for me to say "I love you" when I leave the house or hang up the phone, or before bed?" She seems to feel obligated to say I love you too, but it feels forced and I don't want her feel like she has to say that, but at the same time, I don't want to not say it.

sigh


It may be that the hopefullness I was feeling has skewed my expectations, or maybe this is just another downhill on the rollercoaster. I'm hesitant to bring this up with her b/c she tends to get defensive ("I'm doing all I can right now, I'm dealing with my own issues right now, etc.") and shut down my discussion about working on us.

BTW I pointed her to Cards' thread, she says she read it some but really had nothing to say to me about it. All I can do is hope that maybe it piqued her curiosity some. Maybe another time.

Maybe I'm just getting worn out trying so hard and seeing so little for the effort. I realize that 99% or more of my effort at this point is probably wasted as the NC is only at 7-8 weeks now. Just wish I knew what was going on in her head or how to approach her about it. It's the not knowing that kills me more than the percieved slights.

Any ideas about how to tell her all of this without it being too aggressive? I get the sense that when ever I bring up tings about the relationship, she'd rather not talk about it and tends to give very little input. One of the roots of our problem is that she could never tell me how she felt and it seems that that is still a huge issue.

LOL...quit complaining about trying to spell Karegh...YOU try spelling Sysyphus!! LOL

Anyway, read your post, and it got me to thinking a bit. Why not just ASK her what she's thinking, what she thinks when you say "I love you", etc...?

Tell her that you know your lack of listening to her in the past was an issue...and that you are more than willing to listen now. That you WANT to listen now...that it's important to you to hear what she's thinking/feeling...even if she thinks that its something that you wouldn't want to know. Explain to her that YOUR pain stems from the deception most of all, and that by her being open and honest with you, even when it may be painful, will still help to heal you as well.

Gently remind her that talking about feelings and problems helps to BUILD relationships...(after all, THAT is how the A started too, isn't it?).

Part of the trick to this tho...when she DOES say something that hurts, it's important for you to handle that pain well, because in the beginning, how you react to those things are going to be major indicators to her about whether or not you've been honest in this...so its important that you admit that it hurts, but also it's very important that you do take the time to see it from her side as well...and make sure that she knows that you've done so. TALK ABOUT IT.

She notes that she's dealing with her own issues right now...and to a degree, that is fine. But she's got to re-learn to work on things TOGETHER with you when possible too. I'm not sure if it's still too early in her case or not...her A lasted a lot longer than my wife's, so that may well affect her withdrawl time as well.

She has to learn to trust you again too...as sad as that may sound. Right now, she knows that she's REALLY hurt you...and she's not sure that you're not gonna hurt her back yet. She's got to see that you're being honest in your desire not to 'get paybacks' on her.

This is how I handled it in my case at least. I was honest with what I was feeling, but tried like hell not to lash out at her when I was hurting too. The big thing is to get her to talk with you about what she's feeling, even if it's not flattering to you. And then calmly and quietly let her know what you're feeling as well. And make any suggestions that might HELP her that you can in dealing with her own pain. Good luck my friend.

Wise as ever -why these solutions aren't more obvious to me I'll never know. I guess I've been hoping too much that she would take the initiative at some point -but these are my issues and I need to take the lead with them. Thanks -I'll give it a whirl.

Sys-

Interesting..... We are on the same timeline but from opposite perspectives. What we do have the same is a spouse not sharing feelings. This has been a problem for me throughout our M.

I do have some thoughts for you, but I will have to come back later. I do want to say that I understand your frustration in the progress area. It is VERY SLOW. I think we have to take it just one day at a time and KNOW that it's 2 steps forward and one step backwards. Also, she may not be sharing because she may be UNSURE of what she is feeling, OR she thinks what she's feeling may hurt you.

Alright...we've had this discussion about the 'wise' thing before....don't make me break out the 2x4 on the next person who suggests that I'm wise!

I just post what I see or think or feel when I read things here...it's got nothing to do with wise, it's just got to do with looking at things from all sides. Remember this my friend...NO ONE does something for no reason at all...even if they don't know the reasons themselves WHY they did something, there was something in them that motivated them to act/react/behave in the manner that they did. Learn to look for the motive behind the behavior, and people mistake you for being wise. LOL

Last night I poured my heart out to my wife. It was very emotional, but not a blow-out or a melt-down, just a release of a number of the issues that have been gnawing at me. I do feel a lot better, even with the new insights I have from her (which aren't all great).

I asked her about her feelings towards my attempts at filling ENs and she said she was fine with that and in fact that I've been wonderful. I told her how sometimes I feel like they get a chilly reception and she said it wasn't on purpose and that I should tell her when I perceive it -keep it out in the open.

I asked her about her general feeling towards our progress and she said (as I 've noted before) that she feels like we are about where we were before everything blew up (ie, not "in love", but friendly I guess). She told me that she was not unhappy, not feeling like running away or anything ,but I certainly got the impression that she wasn't getting what she wants from our marriage (I wouldn't expect that at the moment).She said she was giving it time and wanted to stop hurting the family and hoped she could be the person she should be. I dind't press on that one , but I am curious -does she feel like she has let us down? Or that somehow she can't find her way back to what we once were? Or that she needs to be someone that she isn't?I have to admit, one of the first reactions I had to the whole EA besides my own sense of betrayal was how could she dp this to our kids? At the time she said that she felt the kids deserved happy parents and since she wasn't happy, she was going to go find hapiness. Funny how a happy father didn't make it into her equation :P

This idea of not being able to be happy with me seems to be at the crux of her situation. Last night she expressed her fears if not doubts about being able to find happiness (ie Love) with me, but was giving it time. I wish I had a plan for gettng there besides waiting.

At this point she said she was doing what she felt she could -maintaining NC and trying to spend time together and try to reconnect as friends.

I tried to relieve her of the idea that I was fixated on the EA. I made it clear that I am 100% focused on the now and the future and that I realize that there is nothing I can do about the past other than learn from it and that I was ready to go forward with her and that I wanted to be there for her in anyway she would let me. I tried to encourage her to try to let me in -to take a chance on me.

I should note that she said that a few months back, she was so negative that whenever she told me how she was feeling all she was doing was making things worse -it would add to my anxiety and set off our meltdowns. Now though, with things not so negative and her willingness to at least wait and see, that maybe we can begin to open up to each other more.

Most importantly I told her that right now, the thing I need from her is openess and honesty -that all of our problems and my hurt both stem from her not telling me what she was feeling and doing. She didn't really make a commitment to it other than to say she was trying.

So there it is. We both had a good talk and a good cry. I hope it did us some good.

The good talk and good cry go a long ways towards healing you both, I think. It was exactly THAT kind of talking that eventually lead to reconciliation in my case. I think it's just going to take time now for things to come together...and counseling, and continuing to meet her needs as best as you can. You're doing awesome friend...don't forget to share this discussion with your MC on your next visit. Keep on keeping on!

Sysyphus,

You might find this post very useful in understanding where your W is in all of this. These are SKM's Chronicles. I bookmarked them for you to read. I think you will get a better sense of time from them. Here they are SMK's Chronicles

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for that! That was an amazing read and gives me so much hope. Maybe my wife can relate to some of it . I will forward the link on to her and hope it helps.

A mid weekend update as it were. Things seem really improved if only in small ways. Friday we had our MC seesion -MC seemed a bit bored with us, I think we talked more about his vacation than us -I think he's just waiting on us to get get closer and kind of babystitting us through this period.

On a really positive note, since our talk, the chilliness seems to be gone -I don't know if it was my imagination or what. Anyway, after the MC session, we stopped at the supermarket -on the way across the lot, I put my arm around her shoulders. Previously, she would have let me do it , but that would be about it -this time she reciprocated. I know this seems so trivial, but it really struck me as significant.

Better than that, yesterday morning, on awakening, she leaned over and gave me a good mornng hug and kisss -this is really blowing me away -she hasn't done that in years. All I can say is I really think she's trying and I am really grateful for the effort.

A few hugs and kisses aren't going to fix us, but I do feel it begins to lay the ground work for helping create an atmosphere better suited to reconciliation.

We've been having a really nice relaxed weekend -even the kids are behaving. Oh and Owl, the guild we joined together is inducting us on Tuesday -that is really working out well for us -seems to be a great replacement for her old guild and her attention really seems to be on our new situation and playing together. She really likes this new gang and the old gang on EQ 1 is slowly fading into the background except for a few close girlfriends of hers. I feel like she's really moving on in a positive way.

Anyway there it is for what it's worth.

Small and steady steps are valuable. How r u doing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

These steps while helpful now will need to improve in a while but for now acknowledging them is important for your R's success.

take care,
L.

I'm doing really well, we both agreed we had a great weekend. I'm not hoping for a sudden return to romance, but with consistent progress both in terms of openess, the ability to talk to each other and just having a good time both together and as a family is making a difference. Both of our moods are considerably improved (Zoloft might be helping at this point as well).

I really think a big part of my wife's concern and apprehension is wrapped up in the past -my negative behavior in particular. I believe I've turned over a new leaf. And now that the whole communication issue is so plainly out there, I believe we really have a chance to do it right this time -we just need to practice it. I feel anyway that we have all the right ingredients and the right atmosphere to fix this thing, now it's going to take time and work and patience. And the recognition that there will still be ups and downs for both of us.

If I have any one wish it would be for my wife to come right out and say "honey, I really want this to work out and here are the things I'm going to do with you to get us there". She hasn't really done that, but I need to remember too that I've been out here and other sites educating myself in terms of a process where she really hasn't. Our MC doesn't have particularly rigorous approach to us. He is taking it pretty slow and easy. His stated goal for the time being to get us back to being "in like" with each other and to start communicating in general. She is on the program in that respect. She has come a very long way in the last few months and that gives me hope. One thing that I do want to try outside of the MC program we're doing is to see if she'll do an EN questionaire with me. I know it would be a huge help to me and hopefully to her as well. She tends to be resistant to that sort of thing, but we'll see.

Sys-

Sounds to me like you're in the same boat I was for a good while. My wife never actually sat down and said "here is what I'm going to do with you" either. If you remember, I'd voiced a similar desire back on the LS page at one point. Given that neither of our wives have come here, I'd say that we're not likely to see something like that, but I can also tell you that from my perspective (coming up on the 1 year mark from d-day now) that it's not doomsday if you don't see her give a plan like that.

What IS important is that you need to see her make a concious choice to be with you and to work on the marriage. And I would heartily recommend that you bring that up in your next counseling session. Our first counselor, while very tactless and clearly one sided, DID do us that one bit of good. She made it clear to my wife that at some point she would HAVE to make that choice...she couldn't just sit there with the attitude that the marriage would fix itself someday on its own without her putting any effort into it. My wife did NOT understand that at first...at first, her only goal was to 'fix herself'. But eventually, she DID come to the understanding that a lot of things have to remain on hold until a choice is made...and only THEN can those things be worked on by both spouses.

Bring this up in your next counseling session...I think it would be good conversation.

Glad to hear that the EQII guild is working out for ya'll. It's odd, but we've barely gamed at all over the last few weeks...some online cards, but hardly any EQ. In a way I'm glad, as we're coming up on the anniversary mark for us, and I know the OM is still gaming as well.

Glad to hear that things are going well for you friend...keep up the awesome work!

Yeah, I know about that "fix herself" part. My wife too expresses that need and I don't belittle it. She talks about feeling lost. Like she has lost herself. She loves being home with the kids but at the same time I think has come to see herself as being identified as only S and K's mommmy.There may be more to it than that, but I'm not sure yet. This is one area that I see as an opportunity to meet some EN -helping her get past this problem as well.

One of the things I think I've always doen right was to encourage her to do whatever she wanted in terms of pursuing intersests outside of mommy-hood. It is hard though for her to get the time and flexiblity she needs to do much. It's my hope that some of the fix will come along with the work we are doing on "us". I can't help but think some of the lost feeling is tangled up in the problems with our relationship -that certainly isn't the whole thing, but I'd like to see if her sense of self improves along with everything else.