Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
M
MarkNY Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
Wife poked through some of my Journalling and sent me this email:

Dear Mark,

Hate to say it, but you still do not understand and I cannot seem to get anything through to you. I have been crying too long over you to be a husband. You were always a father, just never a husband. There was never the two of us, just you and then me. I was never # 1 in your book until you just about lost me! Too late. I had already written it off. You have no idea, you were completely oblivious to everything going on around you because you were self-absorbed in yourself. You never helped me out with the kids, and you barely supported anything that had to do with my family. Don’t go convincing yourself otherwise. I let too many arguments go because I didn’t want too deal with you and your arrogance. I finally had enough!

My mother, my sisters, my friends, everyone I spoke to about how miserable I really was told me that you have to take care of yourself first before you can take care of anyone else. I just couldn’t come around to doing it because that would be very selfish of me. I made a lot of excuses in the past and let too many things go. Sure, it made life bearable, but what do I have to show for it now! I am miserable, and I am tired of crying and being so confused that I don’t know what I want to do.

Yeah, once upon a time I thought we were the most stable couple, compared to the rest of my family! You know my feelings about Kathleen, Noreen and Pat, God only knows what is in store for them, and Patricia is not the easiest person to get along with. I could not have ever thought that I could have ever made a wrong choice in my life. I created my own little perfect world for everyone to see, but deep down inside, I knew I was not perfect at all. No one knows ME! Especially you! You have never, and I repeat NEVER, taken the time to really get to know me. You have no idea about my insecurities, my lack of self-esteem, lack of confidence. You have no idea what it was like to be in my shoes growing up and becoming the person I am. I am not as strong as anyone of you think! But I do know how to put on a good front! That was something I learned early on. I know I told you about my high school days and how I had to fight my way to be accepted- guess it did not impress anything upon you.

I keep myself busy so I can get through the day. The busier I am, the better! I do not have the time to think about what really bothers me inside. I hate to be at home and be idle. I also hate the housework because I am alone and all I do is think about too many things. So, I’ll find an errand to run, no matter how small or stupid. Avoidance is the best answer to everything. I asked for children to fill my life because it was so empty. We could have waited and probably should have, but even though you were not ready, I needed it then, instead of later. If they were five years apart, I still would be needed and still very busy with my children. I am not needed by them as much anymore and it gives me more time to think about how miserable I really am.
The kids are the best things that you have ever given me. Don’t you dare turn them against me unless you really are that spiteful. I love them with all my heart and it is killing me to see them suffer this. I just do not know what to do. I know that we cannot go on like this, but I cannot change all the disappointment I feel and the frustration, and the confusion. I want it over, but I do not want to be hasteful in my decision because of it.


I need someone beside me who is going to help me in the social scene. I need to be around others who I consider to be my friends. I need to be accepted, and I need a partner who will support that. I am sorry to say that you do not complement me in that arena. Your sarcasm, your pessimistic attitude, your arrogance over the years have taken a toll on me. This may be very selfish of me to say, but you want to know and you need to know. For so many years, I have wondered why people do not call us up and say, “Hey, let’s go out for a dinner or a movie together as a four-some” or something like that. NO ONE!!!!! If people like me so much and can call me there friend, why does this not happen? Everyone else is able to do it, but my phone is not ringing off the wall! When people in the school yard talk about getting together, it hurts me to not be included. Maybe that is why I initiate many of the get-togethers, because then I know that I am Included! I use to say it was because everyone had kids and everyone is too tired or can’t get a babysitter or something. Just more excuses!
I am able to go out with my friends and maintain my friendships, but what happened to you? I don’t know, but you are who I factor in as a problem in this, I am sorry to say. For YEARS, I have tried to encourage you to go out with the boys, to get involved in something, go out with Warren for a beer, your brother, Frank Gaspe, anyone; be a firefighter, join the Knights. I have asked this of throughout our marriage to improve your socialization skills. You ignored them. I gave up. It was just easier to go out myself after a while and you would watch the kids. I need to be sociable and I learned how to do it! You could too, if you only tried. But, now is too late to fix things in this area. You really hurt me in December when your actions tore apart some of the things that were important to me. I no longer feel very confident in myself around people. I feel I must watch what I do or say, and I am very leary of initiating any kind of “get together”. You have crushed me in a way that you will never understand, so I can tell you this: DON”T TRY TO UNDERSTAND. YOU WILL NEVER GET IT!!!!!

I know that I may be all over the place here with my thoughts, but that is what my mind is doing to me these days. The thoughts are not organized, only reflective. I have my own feelings about you, and right now, they are not positive at all. I am trying desperately not to escalate it to hate, but am having a difficult time of it. I have over many years been trying to reflect upon why I am so unhappy. I tried to tell you this, but you did not listen and you did not help at all. You are correct about one thing, though. It is not you, it is ME, who is the problem. I am the unhappy one and I finally took people’s advice to take care of myself and let myself try and figure out why I am so unhappy. That one selfish act of mine that I knew I should never have taken, has cost me a lot! As a result, it effects you and the kids. Can I continue to be so selfish, or do I just continue pretending that things are just great and that we are the most stable couple in the world! Unfortunately, I cannot go back to doing that, but I am too insecure in myself to take any other step! I just want to get up each day and get through it. I do not want to have to go over this time and time again.

If you want to blame Joe for all the problems that we have, I cannot stop you. If you believe that there never existed any problems in our marriage before Jan-Feb of last year, then that is your perogative. You are, however, living in denial and you need to take a long-hard look at yourself instead of every one else! There is one thing that my mother (and God, do I miss her) did teach me, and I love her for it so much that I hope to be able to instill it in my children. I am a good person. I am beautiful in my own way. I am liked by others and those who don’t like me, the hell with it! I am worthy! I am the prize! Anyone would be happy to have me! Unfortunately, you neglected me for way too long, and you did not realize it until it was too late. I know that you win the big prize if I stay, I know what you have in me. I, though, realize that I never gave myself the opportunity to be with someone who has some, if not all, of the qualities that I once valued in a partner. It may sound very callous of me to say, but you have very few of the qualities that I value in a man. You are responsible for your family, you provide for us and that is a priority for every man. You rose to the occasion and became a great father. You never complained about taking care of the kids when I worked my long shifts and I knew they were in very capable hands. I never worried and I would laugh at other mothers who could not leave their children with their husband, like Kathleen. I feel sorry for them and believe that they have missed out on something. But you are a lousy husband. You rarely did anything nice for me, took an initiative, or acted impulsively. My birthday and our anniversary became an afterthought, and so did I. Yes, you never forgot the day, I guess, but there is no effort in getting a card and flowers the morning of. Although you think I should forget the past and move on to the future, I cannot. All those little things that you think are so insignificant add up and they hurt!!

I gave you so many opportunities over the years, I just can’t do it anymore. All these years, I have reflected upon the men I let get away and the ones I never gave a chance to. You are missing so many of the qualities that I really wanted in a husband, I always thought that you would change because you did love me.
I thought that you would help me around the house and with the kids, but you never picked up a vacuum or did the dusting or the food shopping, hell, you never even went shopping with me! You never picked up you clothes and no matter how many times I got disgusted over the locker room smell in my room, and even said something to you, you would treat me like your co-workers and continue doing what you wanted to do so that you would never be asked to do anything again. I thought you would dress neater, wear a tie and jacket because it was important to me, but that was a stretch. I like to dress up, you do not. Had to accept it. (By the way, do you ever look at the picture in our room of you, me and Elizabeth when she was about 18 months old? Do you see the tie you are wearing, how small it is and how crooked it is? Bothers me everyday!) You will never be able to be the smart dresser I want you to be, so I let that go, too. I like the arts, you do not. You can now try to convince yourself all that you want that you do now, but you didn’t when it was important to me. You have always told me how much you hate musicals and what an effort it would take for me to get you to go to the city for a theatre show. Yes, you did it once for Cats and we spent a nice day in the city, but I know that you did not like it. I remember two nice trips to the city, this being one and the other when we had dinner at the Towers. I admit they were nice, but that is not what I remember most about it. I remember trying to convince myself that I was having a great time. I have always wanted to be with someone who could make me laugh all the time and be sociable and able to carry conversation in a group, someone who could work the crowd. Since elementary school, I always had a crush on the class clown or the person who could draw the most friends. That is who I wanted to be with. I envy my friends who have the men with this quality. Karen and Alex are one of them. I could label quite a few others, but I don’t feel I need to. I have always envied their marriage because of what they have together. Our marriage is nothing like theirs; never was and never will be. I envy Theresa and Willie at work, and also her relationship with her mother. I envy what Gloria and Edward have. These are soul-mates, we are not. Please do not give me any sermon about envy. I do not need it, but these qualities are the things that have been missing for me for so long. I have tried to let them go and accept them, you know the saying, “You made your bed, now lie in it” and “That’s life” and I could go on and on with that stuff, but it doesn’t make me any happier. I am still miserable and because I opened up the door and decided to face things, to do the selfish deed and take care of myself, I now feel that I am being punished, sentenced to life in this game. I finally tried to take care of myself and all I have gotten is grief. I know I am not perfect, that is not what I am trying to explain in this letter, and I know I could have done things very different, but I cannot go back now! I am really not trying to hurt you by writing this. I just don’t know what to say or do anymore.

And before I forget, do not tell me how spiritual you are, it absolutely enrages me. When I think of all the times I tried to get you to go to church because it was important to me, you refused. All of our arguments about the kids going to Catholic schools and the agreement that I gave in to in letting our children decide their high school! Now that Elizabeth is contemplating it, it scares me to death and I am praying that she comes to her senses! I will never forget the embarrassment you caused me with Sr. Lorraine when we were trying to decide if Notre Dame was the right place. I so wanted to crawl under a rock that day! You may now realize its importance, but you didn’t when it mattered most. I refuse to argue it anymore and I reflect back upon those days when we took pre-cana and we just never took advantage of those conversations. Maybe they did those classes wrong. I think if we were put into a group discussion about it, we would have, or at least I may have, realized my mistake and stopped this before getting to this point. I am glad that you finally found God though. I use to pray for you to find him every week! I loved to be alone in church because I could pray, and CRY, without anyone bothering me. The girls would do their choir and I would kneel and pray every day at church that He would hit you over the head with his power and knock some sense into you, to open yourself up to God and be the husband that I needed you to be. It never happened and I think that I just got tired of waiting. You keep up the good work and someday, maybe, you will be the man that every girl wants. It’s just not working for me.

I am not telling you these things to hurt you. I am hurt enough for all of us! I really do not know how to work it out and I feel that my decision has already been made, a very long time ago. I just do not want to face what I have to do next, and I cannot get enough courage to do anything. You want me to feel something that I just don’t have in me, and yes, I am wondering if it was ever really there. Like my mother has said to me, any two idiots can have babies. Well, any two idiots can get married for the wrong reasons, too. I am not saying that yours were wrong, but mine were. I was insecure and alone. I just came from a four year relationship with a boy who I knew was going to ask me to marry him, but he really was not my candidate. That took a lot of courage on my part and I feel guilty to this day about the pain I caused him. I thought no one would ever ask me out ever, considering that four-year relation began because I asked him to my Junior prom. No one was knocking on my door or ringing my phone. I really was an ugly-duckling, and please do not convince me otherwise. You do not know anything about me back then. While dating Anthony, I was only just realizing that I could control my own life and I let my hair grow, I had a Job, a car, money and I could do what I wanted. I tried to do things to improve my physical self while still being me and I realized there were quite a few guys out there who liked me. I started to feel better about myself, but I never lost that insecure feeling and I really needed to get away from Mom. She was smothering me, although neither one of us realized it. And my sisters could not see it either because they were dealing with their own form of suffocation! The boys I was waiting for did not come forward soon enough for me though, but Michael did. And although he treated me like [censored], and you know it, I took it because I could get out of the house and that is how insecure I was in a relationship. I knew he did not want me, but he still called and I was still able to hold on to a small piece of. Wqhen you came along, I sincerely did not want you to leave for San Diego because you were the one in the group who wasn’t so serious. Without you there, the group was very boring! I would have missed that, but I also realized you liked me and my insecurity flared up again. I knew I had no hope with Michael and moved right on to you. It does not bother you that you lost Mike, but it bothers me because I lost another friend and I am sorry, I don’t understand how a man who doesn’t care a thing about me would care at all that someone else did. Why did I agree to marry you so quickly? We barely knew each other. I think I really needed the companionship and I never thought that I would get another chance, my insecurities with myself again.

I hope that I am getting something through to you in this. I don’t know how else to do or say it. I am not sitting here rationalizing my feelings! I am telling you the way it is. You, I know, have a very different version. I don’t get all emotional and sentimental when I talk about how we met and came to be. I am trying to deal with the biggest mistake that I may have made in my life. That is a big burden to carry. When I look at my future, it is not there. I see nothing but the children growing up. I am not looking at you and me, because I do not see it. I have never had a dream about it and I do not see you as my soul-mate. I am very sorry! Right now, I can barely see what tomorrow has to bring.

I know that after you read this, you may have questions or want to talk. You can talk and I will listen, but I don’t know what else to tell you. I can go on and on about the thoughts in my head that I am trying to face, but we both seem to have two different observations. Although I want to see what you see, I can’t. I have been hurting for too long. You said that you have changed, but I have changed, too. I am still working on changing me, and I know that I can’t change anyone else. Now, I have to learn how to deal with me. You cannot help me there. I am sorry!


Karen


-Mark
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
M
MarkNY Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
Another Email sent today


-Mark
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
M
MarkNY Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
heres the email

Here's something else I was working on much earlier in
the year; note the dates. I am sending it to you so
that you may be enlightened or something. Please
realize the letter that you just received was full of
sadness and frustration, this one is full of a lot of
anger. I decided to not change the tone and let you
read it for yourself. Maybe it will give you a
perspective, maybe not and maybe I am doing the wrong
thing. But I do not know what to do anymore and I am
at my wits end, especially with this incident with
Elizabeth. This group therapy that they want I know is
for Elizabeth's sake, but to some strange degree, I
feel that you made some kind of arrangement here to
get us together in counseling. Unfortunately, I get
angrier thinking about it and I really don't know what
kind of benefit it is to tell your children that
everything is just great when it is really not. I am
not going to lie to them and I don't want to hurt
them.I just feel you pushing again. Anyway, I don't
want to get angrier and I don't want to start crying
again, so I stopping here and I am sending you some of
my reflections as is, no holds barred. My feelings in
print are exactly how they were then. My thoughts are
incomplete and although I had intentions of waiting
and trying to put them all together, I decided to just
let you read them as is. But I have a feeling that you
already explored my computer already, as well as
everything else in my life.




Dear Mark,
Feb. 7,2005
This entry comes after my initial attempt to explain things to you. Consider it my journal to you. The thoughts and ideas will be what I am thinking about at a particular time, so they may not make sense to you. If you open this up before I try to put this all together to make some kind of sense to you, read at your own risk. I am sick and tired of you misinterpreting my thoughts and needs and taking things into your own hands. You have made nothing better, only worse. When I am ready to really review these things with you, I will do that at that time. Please let me know that you read it, though. It may make some things easier for me.
I know that we are not communicating things face-to-face; I really am never in the mood to confront you, especially these days. My anger is too great and I really don’t know if I will ever get over this, whatever it is. I feel violated, embarrassed and very hurt by your actions. I understand that you were hurt at the time, but rather than trying to understand me, you took matters into your own hands. I cannot seem to forgive you for that, and maybe that is just more reason for me to question my love for you in this marriage. I am sorry, but this last event became the one that broke the last straw for me. Really, I understand your concern, but you did not trust me enough to handle things on my own and just let things be. I know you felt threatened, but I still cannot forgive you for your actions. I know you have a lot to say and if you eventually let things out, you will not be nice about it and I don’t think that I am strong enough to deal with you. I know that I will break down, and not for the better. I am barely keeping things together right now for the sake of the kids. I cannot tell you how much I really want to just leave and take my children with me. Rationally, I know that would hurt you and I don’t have that plan in place right now, but I do feel trapped and stuck in a loveless marriage and it may sound childish to you, but that is not fair to me. Do I really have to stay for the sake of the kids or can I go and not regret that decision. What will I do and where will I go? The questions are always there. Do you remember your parent’s 50th Anniversary? I thought about us then, too. I do not want to be that sad when I get that old and feel that alone. I already feel alone in this world, what will it feel like when I am 70? That is too painful for me to think about!
I have always said that you are a great father. That has never been a question. But I have said for a very long time (When I was still Part-time at Winthrop, if you need to know when approximately) that you make a lousy husband. That is the part that I just cannot tolerate anymore. I thought that I could change you after we married, but you made it not so. After so many years of trying, and expecting you to do better because I asked you to and you supposedly loved me, I got tired of waiting. I think at some point in time, I just snapped and had enough. When? I don’t know, but just like everything else, it did not happen overnight. You can try to change now all that you want. It does not impress me. It does not excite me. I believe it is a little too little, a little too late. Another reason for me to question my love for you: If I loved you than I would want to make this work, right? I really think that reflecting on my life so many years ago and going back to school, questioning my career, all these things added to my questioning of you and me. But, I am wrong about one thing, it is not YOU with the problem, it is US. You, however, will never be the man I want you to be and that is my own disappointment. I needed the time to sort through a lot of these things and asked for space that you did not give me. The space I needed was to allow me to think and be left alone, to find that escape I needed to sort things out. You did not understand me then and I do not think that you ever will. Your behavior lately has determined that for me, and so we remain distant.

Jan 31, 2005
It has always been a chore in the past and is probably the major cause of our breakdown. I have tried in the past, but it was like pulling teeth to get you to say something and I gave up on you. I guess that should be where I am supposed to say “Sorry for giving up on you” but I will not; you didn’t try.
I would like to move on to other things and put this all past us, but I find that I cannot. You still do not understand me, my feelings, my thoughts, my frustration. Anything that I say now to you will be an easy way for you to say and think that I am having an “affair”, because that is easier for you to believe. You prefer to look outside of our relationship for fault than to examine our 16+ years together. I will try to put some things into perspective for you.
To give you an idea of how long I have been thinking about “us” I cannot tell you. It’s been a very long time. You used to say that you hated coming home after work because I was always in a bad mood or something like that. Did you ever think about why I was so frustrated all those years? Sure the kids could be a handful, but I love them with all my heart and they were not the cause of my moods. Other factors always came into play. You really pissed me off the most when you would come home, take note that I was in a bad mood and run to the basement to DRINK! Then you would come upstairs and sit and watch TV. Yes, and I had to break the ice and ask how was your day. You never asked me about mine. Also along these lines, you would not kiss me hello or good-bye. I had to remind you. Now, these behaviors I find to a little too little and a little too late.
You use to nag me about my sister Noreen being over all the time and my mother. Sure, sometimes it was annoying, but you were very nasty about it sometimes and I hated the ridge that you put between my family and me. I can remember all the way to our Pre-Cana days, when the instructors asked about who came first, family or your husband. I should have known from that time that we had a different value-I could not give up my mother, you disagreed and we stopped talking about it. I have never forgotten that. I often think back to those Pre-Cana sessions and wish we were better talkers then, we may be avoiding all this now.
Now, Noreen likes to do trips with us because the kids are the same age and they can do activities together. I like the idea of having other people around to do activities with; always have. But, once again, I let you interfere with my thinking because I wanted to keep the peace between you and I. I should never have let myself do it and should have stood up for my own values. She is my sister and I have no objection to it. I am sorry that your family does not invite us along on their trips. You know, I had fun at Okemo when we all went. Going by ourselves has been very boring. Our trip to Orlando was, in my impression, ruined because I had to run between you and Noreen. All I ever heard out of you was how you didn’t want to do things with Noreen. I know she has her faults, but she is my sister and if she didn’t go, we proably would not have done half the things we did. I really hated your attitude about all these trips.
I could go on and on, but maybe at a later time. I have not written down all my thoughts, so as things come to me, I will try to get them to you. The thoughts may be out of order, but that is the way my mind is working right now. You will have to try and understand.

So, what friends do we have that have ever invited us along on their vacations? I can’t think of anyone in our past. Yes, sure, I have a lot of “friends” but my phone is not ringing off the wall to do things. I know a lot of people, but they do not call me to go out for fun. My friends at Winthrop have always remembered to call me last minute. I know that it is not intentional, but I feel forgotten and unimportant. If you think these things sound absolutely silly to you right now, then you better stop reading, because you are not understanding what is important to me. I need to feel accepted, need to be liked. That is something that I have strived for all my life. Like you I have had a low self-esteem and had to learn how to overcome that. It has only been in my later years that I have come to accept who I am and my own self-worth. It has taken a lot of work and it is still an ongoing process, but I know that I am a worthy person, I am not the ugly duckling I once thought myself to be and I deserve the same respect that every other individual deserves. Now, I just have to figure out how to express it.
From here, I can go off on so many tangents: the way you have treated me over the past years, the friends I miss, the ones I have made, the ones that you have ruined. Where do I begin?
I NEED to be liked by people. People who tend to not like me usually do not know me. I will try to bend over backwards to get the individual to like me. Take into consideration what happened between Annelle Innvar and myself with Girl Scouts. It hurt a lot, but she did give me some insight into some things. She did not understand my frustrations, but she did start me thinking that my Mom is not to blame for everything (I guess this occurred when Elizabeth was in first grade, so that may give you an idea about how long I have been trying to figure out why I am so Miserable). Annelle and I now can talk to eachother, but I will always remember how much she hurt me. But she did open my eyes to the blame I used to put upon my mother all the time.


























The following are just a few things to think about. They are a few clips from my mind that I have reflected upon over the past few years:

Elizabeth in Kindergarten- You threw a bottle at her in your rage and I was called to the Principal’s office. First, it should have been you in that office! You did it, You should have answered for it. I will never forget how I felt that day. When you came home, we went for a walk. I told you that if anything ever came of it I would not hesitate to leave you on the spot and take the kids with me. I was not going to let you and you drunken behaviors get in the way of me and my children. I did not think twice about leaving you then and I asked you to get help about your drinking then, too. You did nothing! Lesson learned, I should have demanded it then or walked out anyway.

Somewhere around our 7 year marriage, we had an argument. I remember it because I always relate it to that 7-year itch that is always talked about. I do not remember what we were disagreeing about, but I remember climbing up the stairs and you entering the living room, commenting that I did not love you anyway. I cannot put into words what I was thinking in my mind, but I knew then that you were right; I just could not believe that you said it and I returned your comment with “I can’t believe that you just said that to me”. We had other words about it, but that statement has always stuck in my mind. So when I tell you that I am doubting my love for you and am trying to sort out things, why are you so supprised by this. You knew it back then, so did I. I just pushed it aside until now. I can’t do it anymore.

Why am I killing myself at work, school, etc.


-Mark
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Mark, it sounds like you have your work cut out for you. You are very lucky that she has told you, so articulately, what the problem is. She has held in years worth of grievances and is telling you now what the issues are. The way you address this is to acknowledge her feelings and ask for her help and guidance in changing your behavior. I would imagine that much of it is manufactured, but just your willingness to take it seriously and to try to change it will count for a lot.

So no, don't pack it in. Go thank her for telling you what the problem is and tell her you are sorry for making her miserable all these years.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 151
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 151
Wow, got my reading in for the week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think you should take this letter as the blessing that it is. She just gave you a roadmap for all the needs that she's been missing and looking elsewhere for.

Your M is longer than mine is, but in some ways it sounds similar in that my FWW submerged some of her needs and lowered her expectations. At the time, when I got my way, I thought it was great. Now I know that those things fester and build. You (and I in my M) have to make the effort. I don't like wearing preppy clothes either, but it's important to my W so I do. There are activities that I don't care for either - I'm no social butterfly either, but I do them. Because it is important to her.

Use these letters as tools to improve your half of the M. Remember that some of it may be exaggerated by current emotions, but some may not, and you can't tell what is or isn't. So take it all at face value and act on it.

At first she will think it is all false and you are doing it to please her. You are, but for your M, can you think of a better reason? It will make deposits even if she has a poor attitude. It will take a long time to build up, as it took a long time for the negatives to build up. I know because I'm still struggling (and will for some time to come) to counter all those negative withdrawals from the past 4 years. I've got a 4 year negative balance and only a 2 month positive one.

You need to accept that you will have to do these things to make your M work. And it will take effort on your part. You also may need to accept that doing these things doesn't guarantee that it will work.

You should thank her for the letters. She was very open and honest and frank. She gets big points for that. Let her know that you know you can't change her (you do know that right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) but that you appreciate her input on your mistakes. Turn some of that overanalyzing muscle you've been putting to her onto yourself for your own improvement. Write her a letter back just as detailed about how you feel. She's taken a big step in opening up communication, respond in kind.

Only you can judge whether you should just "pack it in". My FWW said some of the same stuff when she was disillusioned but a lot of it was just excuses and justifications. We started working on our M and things keep getting better.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,253
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,253
Are you sure you aren't my husband? According to your W's perception, you certainly sound like him. Her gripes are soooo much like mine it's scary. No social life, no compliments, no involvement, no respect for religion. At least you were a good dad. I can't say that for my WH. His other mistress is his job. Oddly different how in our family, it was my H who had the A. It is a blessing that she has given you a template for change.

Good luck! You're dealing with a very empty love bank.


Grapes are versatile. Grapes can be sour, sweet, sublime as wine and fabulous even when old and dried out.

Me: BS
XCH: Clueless
2-DS: Bigger than me
1-DD: Now also bigger than me!

5/6: Personally served CH with divorce papers
6/6: CH F? wants to time to see if M can be saved
7/6: FCH reenters our lives to work on marriage but secretly signs papers to start divorce...what's that about?
Mediation set for November
Final dissolution in January 2007.
2008 and beyond: Life goes on...
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
M
MarkNY Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
The thing is I've made most of these changes she requested. Sometimes she says things like 'well now you do'. My changing started last July. I was making good progress, or so I thought. What my wife reffers to in December was me talking to OMW and ending her little social circle. I couldn't take the secrecy surrounding them two and I impulsively told his wife about my suspicions.

That started the whole anger thing rolling.

I don't know if I can do this anymore either. I want to, I still want to try, but with someone so turned off I don't know if it's realy worth it.


-Mark
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Does she feel like you have changed? Does she feel like you are making progress?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
M
MarkNY Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
Yes she sees and acknolged the changes months back. She now says they were to late. I asked her today if she'd rather I sisn't change - she said it wouldn't matter. She says my changes don't excite her. Again too late.

In part of a letter she says something to effect of I'll every girls dream guy if I keep it up.

I am beginning to see that this is my punishment for past mistakes. I have deep regrets. I don't know if I should just give up. Not revert to old ways, but rather just cut my losses and move on by myself.

I also hate myself for keeping a journal.

Last edited by MarkNY; 04/20/05 06:05 PM.

-Mark
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
Hey Mark, it took her years to build up that degree of resentment, it probably will take some time to reverse it. If it were me, I would try to get into some counseling, but give her more time to come along.

I am confused about one thing, tho, did she really have an affair?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
M
MarkNY Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
Melody that makes two of us. I don't know if she did. But here's my evidence. A letter saying in part 'i have no regrets', etc that sounded like she was ending one. It was written in Jan 2004. IN february she wrote a birthday not offering him a lap dance. In April there was a romantic compatibilty horoscore. Numberous cell phone calls, all done when I would leave with the kids for something. She lied serveral times who she was on the phone with. She made this new friend in Dec 2003 and I just find out, only by a high cell phone bill, In July 2004 Then there was the prepaid phone card.

Sure looks bad don't it?


-Mark
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985
Likes: 1
You called this guy's wife, right? What did she think about it? I have to admit it very much sounds like an affair to me.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 627
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 627
MNY,
So here comes old coach again with his “few observation.” LOL. Say two pages worth!

To say your wife is angry is an understatement yet, if we’re all going to be honest, the rant she subjected you to was just that; totally and completely subjective.

You’ll notice, however, that at no point during her diatribe did she make reference to her own inappropriate relationship and behavior. Her only reference to this matter was as if to say, “so what?” “Old Joe is not our problem. You are our problem!” As if to say that her unhappiness with your social skills entitles her to an affair. Wrong!

“Besides, there is no conclusive evidence of an affair she will argue” and then go on to deny, deny deny but the last time I looked, this basically is typical behavior of the “cheaters our us” society so what is her denial really worth? Rule of thumb; you went to old Joe’s wife and she also connected the dots and came to the same conclusion as did you! So maybe you’re both wrong? Maybe, but the circumstantial evidence would indicate that this is not the case…that in fact you and old Joe’s wife were probably correct.

Given that these are most likely the facts, let’s look at what else she had to say, but in the context of her being a cheater. So OK, you may not be the sharpest spike on the poll but lets not forget her social values are just that; hers! And because she finds you lacking in qualities that she values, it doesn’t make her values good and yours bad, hers’s right and yours wrong or her values more important then those that you have.

Is she frustrated and angry at what she contends are years of neglect and social ineptitude on your part…I’m sure she is but guess what? During all these frustrating years, she couldn’t find a constructive and honest way to confront the problem? One that might have allowed the two of you to work together to more closely align your values with hers? Sorry Mark, the first step to solving one’s personal problems is one’s willingness to accept ownership of their own faults and contributions to the matter at hand. All she’s saying to this point is that she erred in marrying you! BS! What about the adult responsibility to grow into a marriage and make it better? Where’s her mea copes regarding her lackluster effort to meet her grown up responsibilities?

So you know what? I’ll tell you what old coach thinks. (So glad you asked, LOL). Old coach thinks that what this is about is that your WW is still smarting over the loss of her little romance and your role in taking it away from her. And so she’s striking out like a frustrated child trying to inflict all the hurt and pain she can in retribution for your actions. For your taking away from her that which she feels is her’s by right. Further she has her head up her own proverbial butt and is seething at herself about her own lack of ability to find the appropriate response to the matter. She won’t leave the marriage because she doesn’t have the courage to sell herself the big lie that such an act would warrant; her ending the marriage. Instead she will do what she’s always done; take the cowards way out and place blame! And then punish you a little more for her own frustration with herself as well.

Just listen and you will hear it…under the anger and under the real or imagined pain she’s communicating it to you…listen and you will hear the whining the blaming…the self pity…the envy…! Listen and you’ll hear it all…You’ll hear everything except the sound of a reasonable person seeking reasonable and honest solutions to the kind of problems that are really not so exclusive to just her life.

Mark, ask your self this. ‘‘Am I bad man?” “Have I done my wife damage and pain that is unforgivable by any reasonable person’s standard?” “Is there nothing in me that is of value or lovable?” “Is it really possible that I have single handedly ruined my wife’s life?” Because that’s what she sounds like she’s saying and I have to tell you Mark, I find it hard to believe that the man who is posting her regularly (that being you) could be that man she’s describing as having done all this. Do you need to grow up and develop some social skills? Of course and do you need to be more sensitive to her emotional needs? Of course. But bro, you ain’t exactly Lucifer after all.

I have to tell you. If it were me I would step back a bit and disengage. I would stop trying so hard to please her. Stop asking for her affirmation. Instead, begin showing yourself some respect and get yourself out there and in so doing, give her a little of what she’s asking for. Make some friends of your own and live part of your life independent of her for a while. Don’t be so damn needy. Simply state your boundaries as far as the OM is concerned and explain to her that even if you had the moral and social standings of Adolph Hitler, you will expect her to observe and live with in those boundaries. Then continue doing what you’re doing and in the doing, make it clear that you expect at the very least that she treat you with respect, civility and not attack your dignity as a human person, husband and father. Explain that you’re not demanding affection or promises of undying love. Just a little understanding and respect. Then be patient. No pleading, arguing or debating. Just learn to listen…I promise you will be staggered by what you end up hearing.

Coach


[color:"blue"] [/color]

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
M
MarkNY Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
Melody, OMW didn't like things one bit. I also learned OM had a habit of 'helping' distressed woman. She just said she took a vow and will honor it, just not talk to her husband for about a year again. Strong woman.

Coach,

Thanks for your lenghty reply, and thanks for caring so much. Yeah I hear those things too, but I also wonder if they are not misdirected anger. I'm trying in the social department. This weekend my daughters soccer team is having an adult bowling night, we're going.

Last night she rented another DVD and we watched a movie together. Afterwards she joined me outside for a smoke and she said she was sorry for today. I shared some skeletons from my past and she stayed outside with me for about a half hour.

All part of the roller coaster?


-Mark
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
M
MarkNY Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
Last night wew ent out bowling with some other 4th grade parents, well quite a few of them. Wife seemed to have a good time, a few high fives exchanged, etc. Ride to and from stone silence.

I asked her if she had fun last night, she said it was OK. I asked for a hug at bedtime, she gave her usual five or six slight grunts and said 'if that will make you happy'. We talked a bit, more about how her telling me I don't understand her. No love ever in the nearly 17 year,marriage, etc. She said she is griefing for the loss of me, the love of me.

Today theres a school meeting and OM will be there. He's catering it. I ask my wife whats on the menu, and she told me she didn't know, she's not allowed to talk to someone. I told her 'oh yeah, because of that thing you're responsible for'.


Last edited by MarkNY; 04/24/05 04:17 PM.

-Mark
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
M
MarkNY Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
I have so many mixed thoughts in my head these days. I wish I could get to the point of detaching, but I still so badly want things better. I miss the effection, the easy conversation, etc. It's been over 4 months from exposure day (an impulsive thing on my part) and she is on the border of hating me. From these letters it seems she is only here out of fear of being on her own.

I have people in my life telling me I shoudn't live like this, I deserve better, etc. In short advising me to get it over with and I'm just wasting time right now. I son't feel that way, put my logical mind tells me I have to give up sometime. In that way me and my wife are the same - too afraid splitting up is the wrong thing to do.

I wish we could get into some counseling, but my wife flat out refuses now.


-Mark
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,107
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,107
Mark, I was going to reply but Coach said it all better than I could.

You have to stop discounting the adnmission price into your heart.

Behave like you value and respect yourself and your WW may start valuing and respecting you more. It worked for me.

WANT her back, don't NEED her back.

I didn't want to detach either, but I managed it and it was successful for me , so far.

All blessings.


MB Alumni
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
M
MarkNY Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
Yesterday was a bit rough, there was something on her mind, she just seemed very uncommunicative. I avoided her as much as possible. Took my D12 to soccer practice and went to an AA meeting (first in weeks) then stopped over a friends place.

I'm still not so sure there was an affair, but all the secrecy and the red flags. I've scene quite a few of them. Wife says mid-life crisis and me being an alcoholic (evening drinker) our entire marriage had to have an affect. Things got worse the last year of my drinking.

Now my wife wants to fix up the house. My sons communiion is rapidly approaching and some rooms need painting. I just can't motivate myself to start. Just 2 weeks left and the weeknds are so busy with kids sports. Then this morning she talked about redoing the upstairs bathroom. I can't help but wonder if she just wants to fix up the place before she calls it quits. I don't know if I should set a boundry here. I know redecorating the house has been on her mind for some time.

I think I need to gain some respect back. But how to do it without LB'ing.


-Mark
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 888
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 888
Hi markNY,

"I can't help but wonder if she just wants to fix up the place before she calls it quits. I don't know if I should set a boundry here. I know redecorating the house has been on her mind for some time."

I wanted my house to be painted too. Every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year I was CONSTANTLY reminded that I wasn't worth some paint on a few walls.

When it became time that I could Plan B, I filed for divorce. My FWH all of a sudden wanted to paint. My answer: I'll consider it, but my feeling right now is that I don't want YOUR labor on MY walls, and after waiting all this time I'd rather wait just a little longer so that I can fully enjoy it instead of it reminding me of you after you're gone.

I should also tell you that whenever FWH mentioned that he "might" paint, he also said that he didn't want to do it unless he was sure that we wouldn't get divorced because he wasn't going to do it just for me to enjoy. He needed a guaranteed outcome before he would put any effort anywhere. Because of that, he didn't use an opportunity for a HUGE Love Bank deposit that would have made more deposits every time I was in a painted room. He didn't use most opportunities to make Love Bank deposits. Some missed Love Bank deposit opportunities, like the walls, were ongoing LBs instead.

So, I guess what I'm saying is to decide whether or not you are willing to meet ENs when there is not a guaranteed outcome. If you are willing to meet some ENs, then decide which ENs you will meet and which ENs you will not. Some ENs are more important than others. Do you know what your W's most important ENs are?

Take care <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
M
MarkNY Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 246
Thanks Loving,

You have just given me new cause and purpose. Would I like to later think - if just send a few days painting or a few grand for a new bathroom maybe that would have helped.

I've been in a funk all day - your words have lifted my spirits. Maybe I just need some encouragement.

Bring on the drop cloths et al.


-Mark
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
1 members (NewEveryDay), 1,357 guests, and 77 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5