This topic has been raised repeatedly, with consistently disastrous results. Why? Usually because the topic is triggered by a particular poster's (or group of posters) approach and the actual issues are mixed in and intermingled with complex personal dynamic. It becomes a conflict of online personalities instead of an honest discussion about a specific issue.

Having been through it yet again, with the same results, I'm getting sick of the same old, same old and would like to try something new.

I'd like to have this discussion rationally and without personal attacks taking place. Everybody should feel free to weigh in their opinion and present their argument, and rebuff the arguments of others. All this should be done with respect to each others and a concentrated effort to keep the issues themselves as the subject of our posts. I really don't know if this will fly, but what the heck, it's worth a try.

Here, in a nutshell is the basis for my argument.

1.)That WS come to this forum for a great variety of reasons.

2.)Often enough, there is still some 'Fog', or the person is otherwise still not 'getting it', even if they have ended the affair and want to save their marriage.

3.)How we treat these people is going to affect them.

4.)As members or proponents of the MB system and the Harley principles, we agree that they have merit and (ideally) we make a basic commitment to adopt them into our habits when posting.

5.) I believe that we have a moral responsibility to not harm others. If we do post, it should be with the intent to do good, not just unload some of our own hurt.

6.) Over the years I've seen a general increase of 'gratuitous sniping' and 'disrespectful judgements' and I think it's harmful. I feel I owe MB and it's ideals a debt of gratitude and it hurts me to see people disrespectfully treated here.

The purpose of this thread is not to attempt to control any specific persons behaviour. The purpose of this thread is not to even discuss any specific persons behaviour, so please respect that and make your arguments without examples.

The purpose of this thread is to tackle an issue that keeps popping up, and tackle it in a civilized manner once and for all.

Any takers?

John

Well Dewt, I see nothing "new" here. This is the same argument that has been hashed to death on JimmyMac's thread. What is "disasterous" is not a specific poster[s], but the attempt to control others. It almost always leads to a brawl. I guess we learned nothing at all from that thread.

I believe that folks should post in the way they see fit, as their own judgment and experience dictate, to BS and WS alike. Within the guidelines of TOS. And others should respect and tolerate various posting styles. That is what makes this forum so wonderful, because folks can get a variety of opinions/approaches.

If, however, a poster violates the TOS of this forum, it is real simple to hit the "notify moderator" button at the bottom of the page. Let the mods be the board police here, that is their job.

Dewt,

I stopped posting, for a time, because some of the comments or replies to me were very hurtful. I came to MB because I, as a BS, chose not to reveal my H's A to friends and family. This was my outlet, my "safe haven" to cry, vent, understand, and be understood. My H began posting here, as well, and we have learned and grown a great deal.

After awhile, MB no longer felt safe for me. It was actually impeding my progress and my healing because it took energy spent on healing from others' comments away from energy that could have been better spent on healing from the pain I was already in. A's are painful. The people who come here are in pain. They are not typically looking for a social club, nor are they looking to be judged or condemned for their actions. They are most likely seeking help. I, for one, hope they receive it - whether they are a BS, a FWS, or a foggy WS at the beginning point in their journey, looking for answers.

Various posters have various styles of delivering information, advice, or direction to others. Some see the best approach as being direct, "in your face", and offer what they feel is a reality check, while some others believe that a gentler approach is more effective. Who really knows what words it may be that will really reach someone? Maybe it is a combination of all of these styles...so that the new poster may sift through them and choose those replies which to address and those which to disregard.

What I do know is this...I have been hurt, and I have seen many others hurt by some of the comments made here to people who are in incredible pain. I have seen WS's literally run right off this forum. I thank God that my FWS was not one of those. I am thankful that he was one of the ones who received help from others instead of personal attacks and judgements so that he could grow from his experiences here instead of being judged or attacked for his choices. I'm grateful his skin is thick enough to handle the times when he was judged or attacked. I am glad that he has received both gentle understanding, and cold hard doses of reality.

I have also seen BS's run off this board, because like me - they just simply couldn't take another heaping dose of pain piled on top of the pain they were already experiencing.

I hope that I can help someone with what I have learned. I hope that I can continue to grow and learn so that I may share that with others who are in that bleakest of places or backed into a corner. I hope that every time I post to someone, I can think hard about my intent behind it. Am I responding to this person because what they posted is a touchy subject for me and it stirs some negative feelings in me? What is the motive behind my post? Did they just anger me? Is that why I'm responding, or am I responding because I think I hold some experience or information that may actually help them? Am I delivering it to them in a way that isn't hurtful, judgmental, or uncaring so that they may be open to receiving what it is I want to share with them? These are questions I will ask myself each time I post. I would really hate to know that I impeded someone else's personal growth in the quest for my own.

Frozen, I feel badly that you had such a hard time. It grieves me to see a very wounded BS attacked. I am glad you made your way back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I believe the argument was opened in Jimmy's thread, as it's been opened many times before. However, the brawl that ensued made it very difficult at time to even decipher what was being discussed. My hope is that we can try again, but this time actually have and complete the discussion without it turning into a series of attacks.

You said,
Here I'm trying to find your contribution to this thread. Is this your main point?

If you have a concern about the nature of this thread being 'controlling', I invite you to share your perspective and we can add that to our discussion.

I just want to be sure of what you are saying before I ramble off a reply. (I did learn at least one thing on that last thread)

Frozen, thank you for sharing your experience. It's a good example of why I started this thread. I originally came her as a WS in 1999 and MB made a huge, positive difference in my life. Had I come here now, as a WS, MB would never have had a chance to make a difference. I'd have been run off right quick.

I appreciate you thinking carefully before you post, and filtering your thoughts based on intent. I guess that's part of what I'm advocating in my stance.

John

Dewt, I just did "share my perspective," that this thread is yet another manipulative attempt to control others. This meets my definition of insanity, making the same mistake over and over again but expecting a different result. The brawl on JM's thread was a direct result of this very thing, trying to control others. It failed on JimmyMac's thread and is likely to meet the same fate here.

I realize you were here close to the start of this forum when there were much less people so it was likely more cozy and personable. I wonder if what you are seeing isn't simply a natural result of a growing and diverse population? I don't see this monstrous negative change that you do and I have also been here for years. I think the trick is to take the good and leave the bad. There will always be attitudes and comments that we don't like, it's not reasonable - or sane - to expect that a group of diverse people will always perform to our own personal standards.

I view this thread as an attempt to change/alter the behavior of others to accomodate your personal nostalgic "vision" of the board, Dewt. Would it be reasonable for others to expect you to change your behavior to accomodate their vision? I assert that is not reasonable at all. Nor is it realistic to believe that one, outside of the mods, can effect such a change. One can certainly try, but I fear disappointment will be their lot.

Dewt

Occasionally posters hurt other posters with their words.
Sometimes it sdeliberate ( as with BT and her attacks on me)
Mostly it is a strongly positioned divergent perspective be offered.
As Archuletan pointed out on the other thread this is an unusual site where most posters are either in or recovering from the most traumatic experience of their lives.

Dewt you cannot legislate for hurt people responding. You can only legislate for people deliberately hurting others.
This is already well covered in site Tee's and Cees and in Steve Harley's introduction in the 'announcements' section.

The original WS in this line of debate was called a 'scumbag' by a hurting, triggered FBS. You and others seem to be indicating that it is the general practice of FBS & BS on this site to greet new WS in that way ! Even the WS himself didn't take offence.

Yes even lifers sometimes overstep the mark (Such as Pep & Susan with BT yesterday IMO - sorry gals)

I really don't see what else you want dewt. Less understanding moderators perhaps ?

My apologies.

Please carry on...
This horse is dead.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Don't apologise to me - I thought it was hilarious ! Just unfair, and pobably against teh rules of the site like most great humour ! I wish I'd've dared to do it ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Bob said:
Bob ... my only objection here is being refered to as a "lifer" >snort<

Dewt ---> How I respond to a given WS reflects what I would have liked someone else to have said to my H when HE was in similar shoes. And this is true whether the WS is fresh new, or already out of the fog or whatever.

I think of my H at that stage, and speak what my H needed to hear during that part of his crisis. So THAT is what guides me.

And ---> what I say to a BS is what I would have liked someone else to say to me when I was in similar shoes.

So, there you go.

My rules for myself, which I have no desire to require from you or anyone else.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Bob, most of what Suz and I said to each other was in reference to our belief that she and I are going to hayul ... Suz thinks she is going to be delivered there in a "handbasket" ... I suspect I will be FedEx'ed overnight !

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ok. I get it. Now, I will not discount your statement out of hand, BUT I remain unconvinced. Please explain to me exactly HOW you think it is a manipulative attempt to control others.

I will gladly admit that I have hopes that facing this topic will influence people to examine their motives and posting habits. Beyond that, people make their own decisions. But I view that as completely different from 'controlling' behaviours.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand your point.

This thread may very well meet the same fate as the last one. And the one before that. And the one before that. I'm hoping that anyone posting to this thread will keep my original requests in mind; that we discuss this as civilized, rational adults WITHOUT turning it into a flame war.


I've wondered that myself. And it may very well be the case, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't there, or that we should just ignore it. Not only that but there's also the fact that though the membership base is very broad, there is still a core group of regular posters and I believe we have a moral responsibility to at the very least avoid causing more damage with counter-productive remarks.

And I've done some very careful thinking about what 'my' personal standards are. And indeed they are very high. High enough that I can't even say I live up to them. However, this thread, my argument, is not based on what MY standards are. My whole argument is based entirely on Harley material, with a solid back up straight from scripture (if you want to debate on those grounds).

Anyway, hey... who am I to say? If you feel that this thread, or this topic sets unreasonable standards, please feel free to make a case for it.

Bob, thanks for weighing in on this. I'm very much hoping that we can avoid mentioning specific posters. I really want to avoid emotional reactions to posts as opposed to civilized discussion. I'm hoping that a strategy of keeping arguments non-personal will help avoid escalating tensions. Not only that, but this thread is really and truly not about that other thread. I stillllll haven't read the thread that started it all.

I am not advocating legislating anything. As far as I know, there's already a TOS that legislates behaviour to an extent deemed acceptable by the admin and mods of this site. I'm not here to contest that or advocate any alterations. If anything, I would argue that we should take the spirit of the TOS and Harley principles more to heart. Use them with each other, not just with out spouses. And not based on right or wrong, truth or untruth, but even based simply on effectiveness, they have merit.

What I'm advocating is a general awareness and sense of communal responsibility. And I advocate it, I don't seek to impose it. We do have a high concentration of hurting people and to be honest, it's great that we are as tolerant as we are. I just think we could do better. I'm not even saying I'm right about this... I'm presenting for discussion and hoping that we can tumble it over as a community.

In a nutshell, what I want is for us all to become aware of this issue. Become aware that what we post is going to affect somebody. I want to promote a community that comes together (with all it's different styles and angles) to help and heal, not hurt.

That might be a bit overly romantic to some, and perhaps unrealistic. I still think it's a topic worthy. If even one person slows down enough to think more caringly before posting, if even one person is not driven off or discouraged (especially when they are 'fresh') and stays to hear the truths and all the good advice and support, then I'll be happy enough and consider all this typing worth the effort.

John

Dewt, telling others how to behave very much is an attempt to manipulate and control their behavior, whether you understand the definition of controlling behavior or not. That is the definition of controlling whether you accept it or not. Most controllers don't believe they are controlling, they are just trying to help others see the error of their ways - all for a good cause, of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


And to attempt to persuade others to behave in a way that is suitable to you is controlling behavior. It presumes that you are in a position to influence them in the first place. You are not. You are only in a position to "influence" your behavior and to think otherwise is arrogant. You can only control yourself and not others.

If someone is acting out of line, it is up to the MODS to correct their behavior, not you. It is up to the MODS to determine if someone is acting in the "spirit" of Harley's principles.


We are all civilized, rational adults here, but it is not rational to expect that you can make the same mistake over and over again and expect a different result. It is incredibly disrespectful and arrogant to expect that you can tell others how to behave and not expect a flame war. It is the inevitable, predictable result of controlling behavior as we saw very clearly on JM's thread.


What it means is that you must accept that you cannot control others on this board. That is an unrealistic expectation that will never bear fruit, only disappointment and resentment. I would suggest that if folks spent more time improving themselves instead of busily scrutinizing the behavior of others, that the world would be a better place. It always comes back to this simple, but very true message: I can't control others, I can only control myself.

Here's my suggestion.

Disclaimer: I have not read past the openning post on this thread, so forgive me if I seem to have "missed" something.

I suggest that a recovered, FWS, create a parallel for WSs to my Quick Start Guidelines for BSs (linked below). I'd do it myself, but I don't think it would have the credibility that one created by a FWS would.

FWIW, when I wrote this (years ago now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ) I first shared drafts of it with both current and recovered BSs and FWSs. I got a lot of good feedback and made many changes, additions, and deletions as a result before posting it for the first time. As you can see, I've updated it since the first "final" post.

I'm not soooooo naive to expect that an attempt at such a parallel guideline would not be without some emotional disagreements. But the FWS taking the initiative to write it has the license to make it whatever they want. As with my BS version, anybody can post to it offering their insights and/or suggestions and/or disagreements.

Melody, I'm still having trouble adjusting to your perspective. I'm getting the impression that you think I'm controlling. All I'm trying to do is advocate the principles on this site.

I am still not willing to discount your accusation that I'm 'controlling' but you are going to have to really give me some specific examples of me specifically trying to control someone.

Addressing the specific purpose of this thread and the issues I've raised would be appreciated too.

Furthermore, I'm in every position to influence. And that is part of my motivation in raising this issue. We are all in position to influence. In my opinion, with that power comes a responsibility. It's not as simple as expecting the mods to intervene on every issue. There's simply too much traffic here. What I'm talking about here is a global sense of responsibility. Honor the spirit of the law, not just get away with whatever you can within the law.


If you think I'm being arrogant and disrespectful, feel free to notify the mods. Apart from that I'm trying to have a discussion here and I don't feel that you are respecting the boundries I set when I opened this thread.

I am honestly trying to communicate here, Melody and I would love to have an actual discussion with you. Why are you so resistant? Do you feel that I've posted this topic as a specific attack against you? If so, I must assure you that is not the case.

So, for the sake of this discussion, and for the sake of moving forward, let us accept as a foundational fact that I cannot control anybody. We don't have to pound this into the ground, I agree.

Now, how about abiding by the spirit of the Harley principles, and the spirit of the TOS. How do you feel about that?

Should we, as individuals within a community make an effort to work those spirits into our individual posting styles? Or should we post without thought of the consequences? Saying whatever we want, however we want as long as the mods don't pick it up?

John

My imaginary conversation with Melody on a long trip by car:

JM: Could you pull over at the next gas station?
ML: Oh, I see you. NOW, you want to tell me how to drive.
JM: But, really, I need you to pull over for a minute...
ML: Another attempt at controlling behavior. You can't control me, you can't control anyone. You can't give it up, can you?
JM: But, Melody...
ML: Go call the police--I might respond to them...they are the only people with authority to control how I drive, or how anyone drives, for that matter. You have no right to offer suggestions to me or anyone, for that matter...
JM: Gee, I've got to go to the bathroom...
ML: See, it is all about *YOU* *YOU* YOU*. You are so self centered and egotistical. The world doesn't revolve around you, you know
JM: But, if you don't stop, then I might...
ML: There you go again...threatenting with what "might" happen. You are a control freak, you Nazi...

And, so it goes on.

Usually only the moderators are called Nazis.

Same topic, same result.

WAT, what an awesome suggestion.

dewt

Please, Jimmy, don't drag the fight over to this thread. You were trying to say something when you started that thread. This is your chance to voice your opinion, flesh it out, whatever you want... but no fighting, no name calling. Thanks.

dewt

worth a TRY:

I too truly Like your suggestion.
Thanks for trying to find a positive direction to take all this debate.

Indeed, put all this energy in taking "Your Point" directly to the Incoming WS as they first enter MBers.

Give them that one stop shop for guidance, direction and support.

(Including a small remark about what they may experience here from posters with differing view points as well as differing time lines).

I'm confident that the thread WOULD be kept bumped up for any and all that Needed that Valuable Resource!

Sadly, there seems to be No takers.

Instead, we'll be treated to perhaps 15 more pages of this never ending discussion.

But you've only posted this here today.
So hopefully some will step forward, after they give it its due consideration.
If they do......I wish them success in reaching out to those souls that need them.

****************
My only fear is that if there ever is that type of thread....there WON'T be any consenses on what the "right" type of advice is there either! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It'll be 200 pages of "do it this way"....."no, do it that way". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />