DS,
Hi..I am glad that I could be a little help to you.

However, I also must ask you not to give him too much space. I think you are right...it could push him away. I hate it when my H is bugging me when I need space..but in the end, it really helps.

One thing that he has let me do is vent to him. I hate doing it, and usually try to avoid it..and I must admit that our counselor doesn't like it either. I feel awful at some of the things I say to him( I can be VERY cruel)...but it makes me feel sooo much better to get it off my chest. BUT..and this is important...he lets it slide right off of him..he knows that it is all my hurt pouring out, not the love that I feel for him, just the hate at what he did. If you would take it personally, you can't do it. I know that he took it personally at first, and there are still times when he does, but in general, he lets it all slide.

I am very concerned that your H does not want anything from you. It DOES sound pretty suspicious to me, and like I said before, when I acted like that..it was not a good thing..I was being "bad" myself. I did not have an affair, but I was starting to be deceptive and that COULD have led to an affair.

Anyway, I know I may sound contradictory at times..my H tells me the same thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />! I think BS are like that. They say I do not want "I love you" but they do. They say do not hold me, but deep down that is all we want. At least me. All I want is to know that my H still loves me more than life itself, wants me, needs me, and enjoys holding me, laughing with me, and having SF with me. Yet, when I am REALLY hurting, I tell him that I do not want all these things!

Also, and I think this is the MOST important thing.....DO NOT give up the relationship talk! Maybe find a new way to approach it, but do not give up on it. It is the most important thing..communication.

Anyway, I see that my posts run on and on..for that I am sorry. I also want you to know that my H reads what I say..and so he is helping you also. We are working as a team again..hopefully we can help.

Keep trying...I respect you for seeing the errors you have made and are now trying to fix. That takes a lot of courage. Keep it up!

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He came in at about 2am, went right to the basement, where we have a guest bed.

I set the alarm for 7 as I know there is none down there, and then yelled down to him at 7 to wake him up.

He came up got ready fast, and left for work. I will move an alarm clock there for him in case he wants to sleep there tonight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

deeplysorry,

The dreaded ER [emotional rollercoaster] doesn't necessarily stop after the WS ends his/her affair and recommits to the marriage. Many BS become very despondent right about the 6 month period after d-day, which in your case is right about now. In the meantime, please stop chasing him and start becoming a little less available to him. Right now he is in a fog of his own and the more you chase him, the more he is going to want to get away from you. Consider implementing some of the points in The 180 Degree List. INMNSHO the more emotionally strong you appear to him, the more attractive you will become to him and emotionally bring him back to the marriage.

TMCM

Thank you so much TMCM.

I was implementing something along these lines today - to just accept that right now it's just me, and to keep working on me. That's why I have started to take the kids to church and church events like last night, next week a friend and I start belly dancing.

The hardest thing is that I am a stay at home mom with a home based business. and we have one car, which he has all day and right now- if he wants to go out - all night.

Lately I have been working around it, and trying to pre-plan ALOT. next week for example I will need to borrow the car from him on two days (drive him to work)

We are in no way able to get a second car at the moment.

I was doing alot of the things on this list - no wonder he is running away! eeek

_____

I think I will do a modified version of this list, as I still have alot to get through - alot of remorse - ultimately he is where he is because of me, so this list can be a little conceited when applied to a WS.

I will continue to be very remorseful. When he does talk to me, I will continue to tell him how sorry I am, I do not want to stop doing that - I don't want him to ever feel that I have taken this lightly all of a sudden, but I also want him to see what a great person I am becoming, and I think many of the things on this list will show him that.



-ds

Hey deeplysorry:

Took a break for a while to deal properly with DD and wayward mom issues. Have recently been lurking a little to see how everyone is doing. Although WXW and I ended in D; I clearly relate to what H is feeling and thought I'd throw $.02 at you. No 2x4's though as you're seeming to recognize when you make a "mistake'. From my seat - I sense that you desperately want to move past all this hurt (H's and yours) however H's emotions are clearly not on your timeline.

Yes, TMCM is right about the emotional roller-coaster that H is riding. Believe me - he would stop the coaster if he could. The good part is that he still loves you. If he didn't; he would have exited the roller coaster and left the park - never to return. He's still there though albeit w/o emotion to you. In my book, this is a positive step for your M.

(Is H analytical?) It sounds like he is. If so - I have some suggestions for you to try.

1. Do not ask for or expect him to meet any of your needs right now. This includes your need for him to deal with this and move on, to see things the way you see them, to respond when you tell him "I Love You", etc. At this time - no response from H is a positive. Do all that you do for him w/o expectations of any kind. I know it won't be easy, but this is what he needs from you. (Right now, you're continually setting yourself up for failure by reacting when he doesn't respond to your liking. I don't think you're doing this on purpose, it's your personality. But it's driving H away.

2. Put no more energy into "checking up" on H when he's away or on the computer. He is trying to "recreate" the steps you took during A in a useless attempt to make sense of it all. He is also tuning you out. (Sorry!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> If he is intent on having an A; there is nothing you can do that will stop him, so let that go. I don't think he desires to have an A. However, you are the very last person he wants to hear from about reasons for not having an A.

3. Leave notes for him around the house, car, garage, etc. in somewhat discrete, but easy for him to find places. This may sound trivial, but it's not. The notes must be brief. Simply write: "I am so very sorry and I love you forever". Or: "When you're ready to love; I will be too. I am so sorry. I love you." Always say: "I love you" and always apologize - again and again and again! Use your imagination, but do not talk about sex, the A or him leaving. He is only interested in how you act. As writing notes and placing them throughout the house is "positive, reinforcing action", he will respond to this eventually.
About once a week, try 'telling him' that you're sorry and you love him. (Important: Always end the notes and your words with "I love you" - not the apology. In doing this; you're showing remorse first; (I am sorry) which will cause him to pay attention, and in saying "I love you" at the end, will work because it's the last thing he remembers as he moves to another activity. If his response is good, say it again in 5 days, then 4-days and so on. If not, wait another week. And change out the notes every day or so, whether you think he's read each or not. Use different paper or pen color. This shows him "continuous, positive action" from you.

4. Reconsider the belly-dancing. I'm just not sure how that may be received at this time.

5. Continue interacting with Christian women and with your kids.

Sorry for the length. All 5 suggestions would have helped me and from reading about H, I believe will help him (and you).

Good Luck.

FR <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks SOO much fishracer.

I too was wondering about the belly dancing, as it's something I have never done before, and it might trigger him that I am doing new things, that leads to new people, so on and so on. I just am enjoying new fun ways to work out. I have a week to decide.

He thinks that I want to hear a I love you back, but to be honest - I don't - what I want is to be able to love him. He feels though that when I DO say it - I DO expect it back. And so feel pressured or pushed, he would prefer I don't tell him at all. So maybe your note thing would help.

On the Saturday before our Sunday, I left an I love you sticky on the steering wheel in the car. He doesn't mention when he has read them. But I am nervous about this idea since he told me he feels pressured when I express my love for him....Do you think I should still do it?

I officially this morning stopped checking up on him. I figure - he wants his space - then he needs it, I want his trust - I need to trust him. So whether or not I see all the signs based on my experience, I can't push that on him.

Oh and I plan on the Christian interaction - I am so blessed to have found this church. I start my one on one christian councelling at the church next Friday, and I am so excited - the councellors we have seen (together) wanted me to blame Greg, and I didn't want to - so I was hoping when I found a church I liked that they would have a councellor. And the power walking last night with the women was so refreshing and invigorating - I can hardly wait until next Wednesday - I wish it was more often!

Thank you SO much for you thought into this - you have no idea how this helps me. As much as the BS wants to understand the WS, the recovering and remorseful WS also wants desperatly to understand the BS. This is so helpful.

Thank you

Interesting ready through this post.

My FWW was very suprised when I told her that I have actually thought about cheating. I told her that I am worried that if in a funk or pissed about her A and I was in a situation where I could cheat...then it would be very difficult for me to refrain.

Post D-Day I have had lunch with a women here at work who my wife knows has a crush on me. I never told her about that. Funny part is I have no attraction to this person either emtionally or physically. She listens to country music...which is a deal breaker.

I am very aware of where I walk...but sometimes it hard to overcome the I don't care attitude. I mean you WS's didn't care...so remember we are also only human. You WS's just have to realize how much you have screwed up us BS's.

Hey DS,

I hope today is better for you.

Try looking here for a thread that was useful to me:

FWW's need help in recovering M

Hemi....

You are sooo right! It is very difficult to be the "good" one when you feel so hurt. That is why I said earlier that sometimes I think the temptation is even worse for the BS than it was for the WS in the beginning.

Thanks for letting me know I am not alone in that thought!

True <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Deeplysorry,

You asked for input from BSs that may be in a similar frame of mind as Sprint.

OK, but first some background in the interest of full disclosure.

My FWW had a ten-year long PA with a work colleague. “The one true love of her life.”

First D-Day was about five years into it. Second D-Day was 14 months ago but it was one of those protracted things and turned into a D-Quarter with what I hope is the last of the big disclosures about eight months ago.

I have not posted here for several months. I re-registered with this upgraded site using a new name because I could not make my old username work. It was Thos.

This is my first post since way back when. Sorry if it’s a little rambling. I am not sure why I am even posting to you. I think it’s a combination of letting you know what Sprint may be going through, as you request, and a hope that Sprint may reach out to some of us that have been acting the way he appears to be. Perhaps this is a post to him more than to you.

I think you are doing all the right things. But I remember reading some of yours and Sprint’s early posts. They were very upbeat. Too upbeat, at least in Sprint’s case. I remember thinking at the time, he is stuffing it. I remember thinking, Not Good. I think he forgave you too soon. Not enough processing of his anger and feelings of rejection.

BTW, I recommend you read Torn Asunder. There are parts of that book that could been based on Sprint and I.

First, as you probably already know, there are generally identified stages to recovering from a great loss: denial, bargaining, anger, withdrawal/depression and acceptance. After so many months I am still in the withdrawal/depression stage. I think I occasionally glimpse acceptance on the horizon, but it’s up so steep and long of a hill I still don’t know if I will ever get there.

And to me, acceptance implies FWW gets away with it after all. Then I slip back to angry again.

To be honest, if we did not have DS13 I probably would not have stayed after D-Day 2. I sometimes think I may yet leave once DS is older and he can deal with his parents separating. Right now he needs us to stay together much more than my need to cleanse my life of her LTA.

Her LTA is just too big, too enormous and way too disgusting to contemplate in its entirety. I cannot make sense of it. I often feel trapped.

Your A was a lot shorter, but probably similar in intensity. I suspect Sprint has not been able to get his mind around it any better than I have. Perhaps he feels trapped.

About seven months ago I started backing off from W. I believe she is maintaining NC, no strong evidence to the contrary, but that didn’t matter to me all of a sudden. After months of Plan A, a Plan B that resulted in her moving back home and writing her NC letter, and intensive IC and MC, I suddenly had no gas left in my recovery engine.

I did not specifically request space or distance. That would be contradictory to the primary reason I stayed, a functional family and tranquil home for DS. But just the same, I intensified the part of Plan A that improves me.

Specifically, I started to make new friends and develop new interests. Some of these interests are with female acquaintances. I took to heart the advice I often see posted here (e.g. BobP’s not so old thread) on MB that recommends never ever being so reliant on anyone else for my happiness and identity ever again. MC told me 90% of my identity was in my M and that is why I almost didn’t live a month past D-Day 2.

So, I actively detached from W starting about seven months ago. On purpose. To improve me. That would be about the same timeline from my most recent D-Day as you guys are from yours.

The consequence is that that our recovery may not be progressing as well as it could. W has complaints about my emotional and physical availability.

Now, I have to be honest here – I don’t much care. I am determined that nothing will ever be able to hurt me like that again. Dr Harley himself says in his resentment article on this site that the pain the BS feels needs to be looked at carefully. It may be your emotions telling you not to stay involved with this person: “...the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.”

Sprint may be thinking that you can never be trusted again. Fool me once, same on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. After all, he did not think you would ever do this in the first place. You promised before God and him you would not. But now he knows you can and did and perhaps you will.

After D-Day 1 I gave my W my full forgiveness and enthusiastically joined in recovery: MC, IC, revamped communications, and changes in behavior (i.e. a really good plan A before I ever read SAA). I even stopped worrying after about a year that W would stay in contact with OM. I trusted her completely again.

I remember W crying in my arms, real tears, saying she knew how much she hurt me and she would never do this again. Many times.

While she was still actively doing it! She lied and lied and lied to me, to IC, to MC and even to OM. She just went farther underground. For another five years.

Perhaps Sprint is worried about this same eventuality now. After all, he may not be able to let himself believe you any more.

Is there any good news?

Yes.

I am now coming out of this detached phase of mine. In the spirit of POJA I am starting to let W know about lunches with female co-workers. I am again telling her where I am when late from work. I seem to finally be willing to let her be part of my life again. Can’t explain it other than I am tired of the exercise.

I want to point out that I am not in danger of having an A myself. During the decade of W’s A, none of my ENs were being met even a little. In fact, she was generally distant and all-around mean to me the entire time. The invisible barriers Dr H writes about really existed for me. And I had several blatant opportunities for A’s, ONS and seriously intense with potential soul mates, yet I never once made that choice. It is no different with me now. It may not be that way with Sprint, either. You will have to trust him for a while.

It’s funny you mention honesty is one of Sprint’s top ENs. It’s one of my top ENs also. Tends to be near the top for many a BS. Pittman writes in Private Lies that the lies usually do much more damage to the BS and the M than does the sex. Actually, it’s been W’s number one EN starting about a month after D-Day 2. What a hoot. She lived a double life for ten years and honesty is paramount? I still cannot figure that one out. In the back of my mind I think I wanted to test her on that with my not letting her know where or what I was doing during these detached months.

Oh, about the depression you cite in another post as the root cause, or at least a major contributor to your A. Hmmm...I heard that from W after both D-Days. And I have read it here on MB from several FWS. I don’t think the average BS believes it very much.

I talked to my IC, he is also a psychiatrist, about this. In his experience, a truly medically depressed person does not have an A. They can’t do anything, really. Most can barely get out of their house. So you may need to look a little deeper if you want to give H a convincing reason you chose to fall in love with and have sex with another man.

Re-read that last sentence. Make sure H knows you understand and accept what you actually did in real life. It’s what is playing over and over in most every BS head. Neither justifications, reasons nor some phase of the moon, but what you physically did over and over again – all the while knowing, or should have known, what it meant to the one person you promised you would never do it to.

Sprint, if you read this, I want you to know I have been doing the same thing you seem to be doing. It gets old after a while. I recommend POJA to you, even if you are already going out with someone else. You start feeling pretty stupid after a while with lies, omissions and half truths. And that’s a good feeling, you know. You do have to live with yourself no matter what becomes of your M. You have to live with your children, no matter what happens to your M. At least be a good example for their sake, OK.

You are feeling sad, lonely and angry. At least these. And you are acting out, if somewhat passively. You can get past these feelings. If I see the possibility of me getting past them, you can too.

What happened to the guy who wrote the post about Christian forgiveness, love and reconciliation? You may have been stuffing the pain then, but you can let it out appropriately now.

No one is telling you to be perfect. This is just anonymous me recommending that you act better than you are right now.

For your own sake.

Come back to your family. I am starting to see my way back, with a FWW not nearly as remorseful as Deeplysorry, and you can too.

Every day as soon as I wake up, before I get out of bed, I offer all this to God. It is the one constant solace I have throughout this ordeal. I don’t ask for relief. I don’t request any miracles. I just say I need Him to get through another day. Hasn’t failed me yet, Sprint.

If you don’t mind, I will pray for you now, too. Shoot, I pray for 2long and he doesn’t mind.

A

Yes! Be sure to include "I am sorry" (or similar) to each note, followed by "I love you". Stay this course - it will work. Keep the notes short & simple. Remember - he needs to take baby steps. And he needs repetition of your action(s) in support and love. It's time for you to have faith and completely give right now. Soon enough; you will begin to see H coming back around. Don't push him - let him find his pace. Support him, be there for him, appreciate him. But don't push him! No expectations from you, only hope. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

FR

Read it twice - Sprint wont read it. It helped me out alot - helped me finding the meaning of the affair and get through some more self healing.



I never said it was a cause...not at all - but it did put me in the frame of mind where I justified it being okay (which it was not) It is not my excuse by no means - but an undertanding of how I got where I did.

Thank you so much for your post. Sprint doesn't come here anymore. Although he may - I am doubting he does. He told me recently it just steers him off course coming here. so I never ask him to.


Knowing my H as I do - I think he will be on a very long road as well. It has taken him years to get over many things in his past, and that was when he was walk away - when I met him, he was a very bitter, angry person, and he changed as we fell in love. He said he gave up that bitterness for me as he trusted me, and now I wrecked that.

Update...

He came home in a good mood, told me how much he appreciated the space I gave him today (I sent two business related e-mails - no phone calls, no personal emails) He said it led to him having a great day (ouch - you have a good day when it has nothing to do with me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) I was very pleasant and supportive, he told me all about his day, happily, went for his run for an hour, came back - same thing - didn't say a word about last night except that him and his buddy had fun till late. They normally always stay out till 2 or 3am when they are together - this is not out of the ordinary.

But I did feel the need to check his cell phone, and sure enough, he called her at 8:55pm last night which is about a half hour after he left the house after our discussion.

So I am a little upset - as he didn't go to the office as planned - he went to his friends, so this wasn't an office called.

But - I am going to let it go and keep trying these new things. As you said, I need to trust him for awhile - I do believe he is like you and he wont follow through, and I trust him on that. But I also know he is stubborn as heck and has left many things in his past he shouldn't have instead of staying and dealing with hardships (one being a son from a previous relationship) I am terrified, that he may eventually do that here too - instead of fixing it, move on. But that's just my petty little fear that I need to deal with <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Once again - thank you so much for your post - these help more than any of you will even know.

-ds

I'm kind of late getting into your discussion, but it was interesting to hear the ws side of things. I too often want my wh to suffer like I did. Even now 5 months later, when he says "I love you" I think (and told him once) "No you don't" I was so blindsided when he had his thing. I want him to "wonder" what I'm doing. I don't want to do anything, I just want him to think it. I hope this is what yours is doing. I have two children and would never risk our family. Even though he did. I wouldn't. I've always felt like he was very controling. I too would never before had him feel jealous. I would do anything he asked, if it made him feel better. Anyway, I would suggest you meet his needs during this time. I also believe that it never hurts to keep him satisfied, if you know what I mean. Keep him at home, so he won't want it somewhere else. You know that if he were meeting your needs (whatever they are) you wouldn't have had an affair. Meet all his needs now.

He had a bit of a serious talk with me.

Turns out he does have the hots for this girl, and her for him. He told her he is not ready yet though yesterday. But they will still be working together and hanging out together as he needs her friendship right now.

He told me he is happy for the first time in years - probably 3 or 4 years (What????My affair was 3 months long, and that was 5 months ago - it was that bad for years? Wow - I told him this when I was in the fog)

He says he has fun with her and that's what he needs. He wants to have fun and be happy. I asked him why he can't have male friends, and he said cause he needs someone he can have fun with, who makes him feel good, as he can't have that at home right now. I said - you can have it - I am here.

He said well I am not here.

He says he loves me, but he is over us, but he has family obligations and maybe in time we can work it out - right now he just needs his space to do what he needs to do.

I told him that to me, and EA is just as devestating as a PA is for him, that I would rather him have a one night stand than a attractive friendship. that this is dangerous. I told him he is developing an EA - esp if they talked about the attraction. He said he understands and agrees, but you can't run away from everyone- you can't choose who you love and don't love, but you can choose to whether you cross the line or not (he doesn't compare this to a PA at all)

He said he is entitled to it. I have no rights he said. I just need to give him his space and if I can't we should seperate.

I told him I know he would never have a PA, that he would leave me first, but that he has always said to me, people don't leave unless they have someone to go to. I told him, you are going to have someone to go to.

He said - yes probably.

I started crying, I looked at him and said I am so sorry, so so sorry.

He said _ i know you are and I have forgiven you, but I can't get over it. I need to do what makes me happy now - it's my turn.

I said I am sorry again, and left the room.

OMG - I have ruined my marriage and the man I love so much I don't think I will ever get him back.

-ds

Ok my h "only" had an ea. It still hurts like hell. I also said just have a one night stand. I could take that better. Again, it's because your not meeting his needs. He's going somewhere else. Like you did. You need to read His Needs, Her Needs. Buy it right away. I read it in one night, it's so good. Then I went to work. My h was still in contact with "her" during this time. I tried to remember all the things he told me he needed over the years. Yours says "I need to have fun" You need to fill this need for him. I didn't wait for him to end it with her. I tried to meet his needs, even though it hurt so bad. He even suggested no sex until he had decided what to do. I "kindof" suduced him in the middle of the night. I felt like sex would bring us closer. I was correct. It's not to late. Get to work, girl.

He wont let me meet his needs Lisa. Because of my affair. He wont let me. He wont let me near him - he is so disgusted with me. He is going somewhere else because he can't look at me anymore - so he can't let me meet those needs, he wont let me.

When I try - i smother him - I push to hard. He says if I would just back down maybe we could hang out and he might kinda enjoy it. By backing down he means, by letting him have his friends, space, and not talk relationship or family, or anything - just be his roomate.

I guess that is my only option - he wont fire her or stop hanging out with her.

I agree he wont have a PA, but he will fall in love with her if they head down the road they are going. I know him.

My last few words to him were, now I have a glimsp into the pain I caused you because you are causing me immense pain, I am so sorry I ever hurt you like this, because this is not what I ever wanted.


-ds

DS,

I'm concerned about you.

Are you alone? Is he still in the house? Do you have a friend who could come sit with you?

I'm just wondering if you are okay.

Froz

My h will be home with the kids in a few minutes, so I'm logging off. I need to straighten the house, he likes that. I'll check back in the morning. See, this I do in secret. It makes me feel good that I'm doing something that he doesn't know about. Hang in there, it's not over 'til it's over. I was also going to say, I'm sure he's getting great pleasure in watching you suffer, like he suffered. I'm guessing that some of this ea is a revenge. I think all of us bs want revenge. Just play the game, meet his needs, he'll come around and realize that you've always been the one. Mine told me that. Everyday meet his needs. Very important. Ok - I have to go.

I am okay - i have my kids, he is here too - I am watching TV, I am just very disappointed and very hurt. I don't understand why he can't see what he is doing is just like what I did. Then I remember I justified everything when I was in that place, and I am sure he is justifying everything. I had the affair, so he has a right to have a girl "friend:

Thanks for you concern - I will be okay. Hey - I have had 5 months of getting strong and well, and still going...maybe not only did the heal me from my affair, but prepared me for this?

He is not leaving me, as much as he has already "left"

I am wondering if after all my appointments next week, if I should go stay with my Mom for a few weeks (4 hours away) He said I could, but he isn't asking me to leave.

He wants his cake, just like I did. Talking about getting what you deserve eh?

-ds

ok, one more post. I know he says your pushing. Back off a little. But, do as much as you can. Example, if he complains about the house being a reck (like mine) - Clean the house. If he complains about the laundry - Do it. Whatever his complaints are fix them. He may think she's fun now, but she'll screw up. She's new and on her best behavior. Give this time. But, don't do anything to make him mad (love bust). You can play this game. I call it that because it is. And both of you will win in the end. I know it hurts, give him space but when he comes home make him say "good to be home". I'll check back tomorrow. Bye