Hi jls,
Lets say that your H had an affair, and that he won't tell the truth.

That for me, would be enough to end a marriage. If the spouse showed no remorse, and continued in the lies, I think I would end it - as you are considering doing.

Plan B could be used to prepare for D, but still give H a chance to come clean while preparing.

I get all that - but..........

I keep thinking about the advice from Pep, and Ark, and others. If he was ready to tell the truth, and he did in fact tell you all about it, what would you do with the information?

It looks like you have been REACTING to what he does and says, instead of using the info to make your plan work. Anger is a protection FOR YOU. It warns you that someone is inflicting, or may inflict harm on you. Anger can be used as a tool. Once you have the warning, you can figure out how to best use the knowledge that other person gives you (which knowledge makes you angry) to best serve your purposes. You can be angry, but not express anger.

I suggested some recources for reading - but I really don't know if you would be helped by them. I WAS NOT saying things are your fault - it is natural go get angry, and seek shelter when some one has harmed us. I would put adultry at the top of the list for harm in a marriage.

What I am suggesting is that no matter what the cause is, your marriage is in trouble, and likely to come apart if not fixed. If anyone is to fix it, it will be you.

If that is true, you have to look at WHAT YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

Often the BS seeks to get the WS to change - after all, they are the one that strayed. The bottom line is that you can't make him change.

You can change you, and see if he reacts in positive ways to your changes.

You have choice though, you can dump him, or you can plan B, and hope he gets it. I don't know if he can AT THIS POINT.

What I am saying is this:
If you can learn about how he thinks, and understand him better. If you can use the anger to tailor your plan to HELP, not REACT in anger. If you can make your home a place where he craves to be, that may do more for getting him to tell the truth than plan B AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

It may not be your turn to mow the grass, but probably no one will mow it if you don't. I don't think he can even start the mower at this point in time. You can leave it, or you can mow it yourself.
I keep hoping you have enough gas in the mower to finish once you start.

Whatever changes you make, whatever you learn, whatever improvements you master, are yours to keep even if he proves to be the wrong person for you. He will show that by how he responds to your plan.

I am not saying there should be no consenquences for his lies. Trust comes because a peson is trustworthy. It doesn't come just because they say they are, or want to be.

You don't have to trust him until he comes clean, and you can tell his IC that.

Please don't react to his lies. Only do things that will help you reach your goal of a happy marriage.

You are valueable too, I hope you know that.

SS

A.M. (and others that have mentioned the option of calling the Harleys),

It sounds like a great idea. Looked at the counseling page and fees page and I cannot reasonably afford that right now. Sure I could put it on the credit card,but the balance is really too high right now. I think that it would probably be worth it, but I know that H would NOT agree. And he would be right about not affording it.

So many of you have suggested this, I will think about it some more. I would like help,been to bunch of counselors around here, not many good ones.

Thanks A.M., and I realize that I need to be sure. I have waffled long enuf, for sure!

I had to think about what Mimi said, but this separation has been a much needed line for my boundaries. Lying is not acceptable in my M.

jls

So use the 800 phone-in line and go "on the air." I have. You get weird commercial breaks and unwanted publicity, but...

Jls-

Hi chicky, I will admit right here an now I only skimmed this post, my attention span leaves something to be desired as of late.

I was a little surprised that your confidence had been shaken so badly, you always seemed so sure of yourself when you posted to me.

Please KNOW that you are a very likable person, and I was drawn to your post merely because you're you, I actually didn't even read the title, just saw it was your thread, and decided to check it out.

I understand your feelings, I would chomp at the bit waiting for people to post to me, I felt desperate for the information that they could give me. It seemed like every decision I made could be critical mass for my marriage...been there, done that.

As I'm sure you know, I sucked at Plan B, I couldn't keep it up for any length of time. I don't know what degree of preparation would have sufficiently prepared me for it.....so I did a 1/2 assed Plan B, and then jumped right into moving back in with my H. In retrospect, I believe I made a major mistake moving out, I think if I would have stuck around I would be in a better position in my marriage than I am currently, I think I could have avoided a lot of my problems if I had only known about MB in time.

But in any event, my FWH and I are back together. It's not quite the blissful reunion I would have hoped it would be, but I try really hard not to take anything for granted anymore....I believe that was part of my problem before. I know that I am only back with my husband because of my hard work on myself, and the grace of God, it's hard as heck, but it's still a gift that I thank God for everynight...the chance to save my marriage.

I don't know if any of this helps...it may not, I tend to ramble on aimlessly...but I really wanted to reply to you, to let you know that I support you and that I don't find you remotely whiny....these are some scary things that you're going through, and asking for help is not whining, how else are you going to receive the pearls of wisdom this site has to offer, I have, and always will, type exactly how I'm feeling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-Caren

HI Jl,

Can I ask, what did he say when you played the recording to him?


I get all that, too. That would be enough for me.


Well, THEN she could decide on recovery or D. Is he hugely remorseful when telling the truth? That would mean something; might consider recovery. Is he resentful and blaming? Then I would proceed quickly to the D! Stringing me out all these years, wasting my life like that... he'd be lucky if all I did was D his sorry A <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

If he asks, how about a lie detector service? They are in the yellow pages, just a few hundred $, I understand. I mean, if he's asking...

I still dont understand how he denies his voice on the cd.

Please take care of yourself - Dru

Well, THEN she could decide on recovery or D. Is he hugely remorseful when telling the truth? That would mean something; might consider recovery. Is he resentful and blaming? Then I would proceed quickly to the D! Stringing me out all these years, wasting my life like that... he'd be lucky if all I did was D his sorry A <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Oh shoot -
1. You made me laugh big time. Yes, he would be lucky if that was all you did.

2. When I asked what she would do with the info - I didn't explain very well what I meant.
Many BS's explode when they finally get the truth. Then they realize they WANT to save the marriage, but it's in too many peices. I want jls to be prepared for what ever happens. She needs to think things over, and have an idea of what she will say, and do. I mean, if she is going to kill him, she needs to do it on the sly, not right there in front of the IC.

Ok, just kidding, but hope you get my drift. You (jls) need to think about possible reactions and how they would help your goals. Then do whatever will help the most, not what you FEEL like doing right then.


Thanks Dru !

SS

OK, Gonna' divide this into a few posts..Boyo, go to work and find out that I got maybe the most responses ever here... Thanks everyone, guess it was a slow nite on MB. LOL. Lucky for me!

First, SS, guess we cross-posted, I type slow, or at least have to fix all my typos and it takes me awhile.



You are right, so to speak. I WAS reacting. NOW I am not. This separation (regardless of what Mimi and others think- no offense at all, you guys-) has been VERY good for ME.

I waited a long time, but it was the right timing for me. I FEEL (right now) very in control, for the first time in a long time.

I am not really angry right now. I was VERY angry and HURT. I, myself, think that the two go hand and hand, and that is okay as long as it is acknowledged and shared. Remember, this happened almost 2 years ago. Now, I have just found out AGAIN, that he is lying to me, AGAIN- Many times in the last few years (and before). It is simply the right time (for me) to re-establish MY boundaries. I have posted and questioned, questioned and posted, about this before. HOW does one reinforce these boundaries? Without putting one's M in jeopardy? Well, I guess one doesn't. My M IS in jeopardy. This is something that I have been in a dilemma about for a LONG time. Even BEFORE all this came to light. A long time ago,I almost had an affair. I told my H this right away. He said that it would hurt him, that was all. This was after I had told him that I was "unfulfilled" with our relationship and outlined MY probs many times. What else was I to do? I DID NOT have an A. I have been COMPLETELY honest with him about everything. I AM SCARED, and I have been for a long times. About my M; For me, For us- For my kids.

Probably, one of the deciding factors for me was this: AFTER we separated, that day, I was explaining to D14 a little about it. She said, "Mom, I would have kicked him out after he lied about the money and the house". (She had heard us argue enuf, she knew that part of my distrust stemmed from WAY back to when we bought this house, in June '99. His parents offered to "give" us some of the money for a down payment. We had most of it, H is the practical one and worried,and he told his parents this. They were to "give" us some money, but to "avoid" taxes for them and us, wanted "us" to sign something saying that we would "pay" them back- but not really. I was leary, and checked with a lawyer and then the IRS. We met with their lawyer also. Turns out that they were really jsut getting "insurance", so that I could not make off with their money and/or the house, in case we divorced. This took a few weeks to come to light. I only found this out after refusing to sign the papers and H went to talk to them. H came home and admitted that he had known that it was a ploy all along. His Dad apologized, his Mom, well she is different and pretended that it never happened. It was a very bad place for us for awhile. I let him take kids and go to family stuff for a year or so, but did not go myself. Just told him to make excuses for me..) Phew, that was not good, parentheticly (word?). Did any of that make sense? Anyhow, Ds comments made me realize that she had lost respect for me about that. D14 is ONE person that I want the respect of. Granted, she is a kid,and I told her that she did not understand alot of the "adult" stuff and when she had 2 kids and was M, she might "Get it" more. BUT, she is RIGHT, in a big way. I did not demand respect for myself back then. No, I didn't sign anything, but I "allowed" all of them to lie to me, and never really confronted that problem. AND, since 2003, have been doing that AGAIN and again.

So, yes, after all of "this" happened, I have exploded many times. THIS possible betrayal (?infidelity)?, OMIGOD, I lost it alot. My desperateness and insecurities came out, BIGTIME! Here and there, since it all happened. But NOW, and many times, I have told H, tell me the truth and we CAN work though it. He maintains, even now, that he was talking to himself. I have had many doubts, both ways. But this is the FIRST time, in a long time, that I have really stood up for myself!! So, WHY would he take me seriously, either?!

Ok, next. Sorry SS. Ramblings in the middle of the night..or morning. I should stay awake and feed horses anyway, so H doesn't feel like he needs to feed them when he comes to take S7 to school. THAT is another story. H was VERY depressed today 'cause kids didn't really want him here tonite (last nite?) when I worked. D14 watched S, H came by for awhile. S7 actually took H aside and told him he needed to leave at a certain time!! H was devastated. I feel VERY bad for him, but also can't help but feel a slight bit vindicated. H has NOT interacted with family much at all in past few years...I have told you all that S7 didn't realize H was gone for 2 days. And then it was only after he heard me on phone with H!!! I have done nothing to make S7 mad at Dad. He is not really mad, just feels "weird" (S7s word). I took the blame at first tonite, then restated that it was "both" of our fault that Dad was staying at Grandparents and it was "grownup" stuff. --I am not at fault that H lied to me and I have warned him too many times that this would happen. S7, though, has NO idea about all of this, just that Dad is not staying here.--

Ok, did I say next?!! Pause and on to next Q and A....,

Thanks so much SS, making me think,I NEED that.

jls

A.M.,

I surely will try to do that. Have NO probs with "humility" at this point. I looked up alot on this site today that I have never looked at before. I have thought about the radio show before, but always forget when it is on. It is definitely a priority, esp. NOW.

Thanks again A.M., you have been very good (and patient) with me. Feel like a little kid when isay that, but that is how I feel.

jls

Caren,
it means alot to me that you even checked in. That goes for everyone who responds to me!!

I always look at your threads. You seem so real to me. I feel like I know you, and that we are alot alike in many ways. Don't take this the wrong way, but one of the reasons that I want to do "right" by the plans, esp Plan B, is because of you. I know that you screwed it up. It's almost like it was me doing it and I learned from it. I really could have been you!! Freaking out and all!! That is soo me, and(sorry) so NOT what I want to do now. Been there, done that, threw away the t-shirt already!!

O yeah, it is so easy to be SURE, when it is not really me. I KNOW what you were supposed to be doing. It was SO CLEAR. LOL. WTF?! But, Moi, different story!!!

I have read that your recovery is not going as well as youwould have liked. I have had no "words of wisdom". I would like to tell you to tell your H to jump off a cliff sometimes, but I don't think that is part of the "MB recovery guidelines". So, I just read and think and try to learn!! From you...hee heh. How do ya' like that, Caren? You are helping me to learn. Didya' have any idea?

Thanks SOO much for hte support. I CAN be whiny, but it really doesn't last long and i try to keep it contained here. Lucky you guys!

Hey, Caren, keep on "fighting the good fight". I, for one, think that you are doing a great job. But What the Heck do I know???

jls

Hey Drucilla,

Lucky you, i am running out of steam.



THAT is what I am PRETTY DARN SURE of. BUT, is "pretty darn sure" good enuf???

What did he say when I played the recording? Well, the first time, it was very bad audio, BUT he knew that he was caught doing something wrong. Hindsight (20/20) I should NEVER have confronted with what I had at the time. I really thought that he was talking to a guy, or guys. Then I listened again (And again... )got it cleaned up and heard more throughout "months". Many times, he has said that he "doesn't remember" saying those things. That he probably did, but didn't mean them! I just caught him on a bad coupla' days..HARdeHAr. I don't know, but even talking to self, Isn't saying "Maybe I should talk to her. Tell her I don't love her anymore and that we're total opposite". a little PAST venting. I am a venter, I talk to myself and NEVER would consider NOT LOVING my H and TALKING to him about it!! Not to mention the calling himself "you" and the rest of the nonsensical Cr*@p in all that.

BUT, He is so CONVINCING. WHAT IF???? I could be nuts. Not so out of the realm of possibility (I said that before,see, I am crazy).

He IS remorseful, part of the time. RIGHT NOW, he misses us alot and is very remorseful. Otherwise, if I tell him I hurt, He jsut acts as if I am overreacting (that's his standard response and I HAVE been known to do so).

Actually thought about lie detector very seriously for awhile. But also researched that(because of a court issue) and know it is not 100% reliable. So there I would be again, either way. And $$ down, just like my sucky PI. PO'PO' me..Oh yeah, life sucks and then,....well ya' know. But really Dru, don't listen to those other MBers, I am NOT a whiner ~jls says in high eeyore-like, pathetic voice~

I really think that H thinks that whatever he tells me would be end of our M. NOTSO, I say. But after all this time, if I were to find out "truth", well, let's just say it WOULD be ugly. Just not the end, 'cause then I would feel like we were getting somewhere... I don't know, too much for this early, or late...

Maybe I will make more sense tomorrow - I doubt it.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Goodnite(morning)all,
jls

And Drucilla,

"he'd be lucky if all I did was D his sorry A"

That cracked me up, too. I have to watch that,I have also been known to get a little self-righteous. Don't worry, SS, I would be very careful and try not to do it in front of anyone. And I have a mental health defense ready too!

jls

"I FEEL (right now) very in control, for the first time in a long time."

You're going to feel a lot of other things before this is over. Be prepared. You can't go on feelings. You have to go on principles, standards, boundaries, long-term aims -- lots of things. But not feelings. They'll go up and down.

A.M.,

Are u really my conscience... It is the boundaries and long-term aims, YES!!! That IS it!! Principles,standards, all of that. Light bulb!!! These are the things that I have been trying to tell him. And I know that I am NOT supposed to be his teacher. I just commented on that the other day, about his lying. I have a D14 that I have to teach (not to mention S7). about this truth and 1/2truth stuff. And even if you don't get caught, it is still bad.

Got interrupted, what else is new. be back

jls

jls,

You have been active tonight, so I cruised over here to look at your thread. I haven't read the whole thing but I have browsed all the pages.

I can also be blunt, my apologies.

Please answer me a question:

Why do you intrinsically feel that you don't have value as a person?

And if you feel that you do, then tell me why you have value? (Basically, I'm asking you to prove it.)

NCWalker

Hi nc,

Had to get away for a few and gave S7 a little riding lesson..Came back and
oooooh, tearing.choke. uhhh. well,do you say that 'cause my typing skills are bad and i don't often capitalize my i's?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Really nc, I am about to cry. IS THAT what comes through in my posts? I feel like I'm in counseling. Y'know, I was just thinking about something today that I should post here as relevant to my sitch, but it may apply to your q as well.

Every guy I have ever cared for, has betrayed me. My dad was never emotionally there for us - how Strange that we pick our mates so close to one of our parents! My mom amd I have never really been close, I have never felt understood by her. She and I had it out the first time this whole A thing with my H happened. He went to her house and she didn't call me all weekend, then called to tell me that I was wrong and whatever HAD happened was all my fault anyway. Cause I am so mean and she knows how I am. Poor po' me again. Well, I have dealt with alot of this in counseling years ago. When my dad died a few years ago, some of THAT came back to roost. He left no will and NOTHING (not a damn pic) for any of his 5 kids.

On the opp side of the scale, I AM pretty great. I just have to remind myself of that alot. I am a hard worker. I am no dummy. I am really not a mean person, soemtimes way too nice and can't say no. A little too straight-forward, but I mostly view that as good. I talk too much and too fast (much better at that than typing), but again that is just a good joke between me and friends- not all bad either. I have a GOOD heart, and I love animals (maybe because they are NOT people). I like people sometimes, esp. kids. I am a GREAT mom. I am a responsible human being. Whatever I do, I try very hard to do right and well.

But (is that "but" gonna' discount all above?) as of late, I am defined by everyone and everything else, esp. my children.

I can't do any more of this right now. Must get S7 to sleep and I have to think about this some more. Emotionally, that stung (I know you didn't mean for it too) and hit a little close to home, I think.

Thanks nc. Sorry, My mood is all over the last few days. I DO try to stay "up" tho!!

jls

jls,

My apologies for not responding sooner. I knew that might sting a little and I was watching for your response. Then I got caught up in a little childish play in Idiotville. Then I had a call from a special friend who also needed help.

So here I sit tired, ready to fall out, with a long day tomorrow. My friend on the phone said I needed some sleep and I said no, I can't. jls posted back and I need to respond so she isn't hanging. (BTW, my friend on the phone likes you a bunch.)

And there was my epiphany. *I* didn't betray you. I'm a little late in my response, but the nature of my question left me a little beholden to kind of monitor your thread and watch for your response.

OK. Time for a little web-weaving.

WHY didn't I betray you? (By leaving you hanging and putting my OWN needs first. I AM really tired.)

Because you are wonderful? You may be. But *I* don't know that. I mean, I am familiar with your username and I think I may have posted you before. But I can't really remember.

Heck. You could be a real snott for all I know.

(Still weaving, be patient.)

I have no motivation BECAUSE of you to either betray you or NOT. We don't know each other well enough for your personality, or character, or goodness or whatever you claim to be (and I say claim only in the sense that I don't KNOW, because all I have to go on is what you say.)

So what WAS my motivation for coming back on in the wee hours to tie up this "loose end" I left. It certainly was not because of who you are.

(Sit tight, still weaving.)

My motivation was because of who *I* am. I value my integrity and sense of honor. I KNOW that I am honorable and good. (And to you, THAT is a claim, as you don't know me either). It had NOTHING to do with YOUR qualities at all.

So your professed "goodness" was neither a draw nor a repellent to my choice to honor my commitment to "finish what I started" on this thread with my difficult question. Your character had no bearing on my choice.

Stop and think about that. And if you are a little angry, don't look at what I said about you, I have no basis to say either way what kind of person you are. Just look at the cause-effect in our relationship, for that is what it is in it's meagerest beginnings. Guess what. You are now in a relationship with a faithful man who did not betray you.

Look at the cause-effect. There isn't any. Your character did not CAUSE me to come back and fulfill my obligation. MINE did.

(Still weaving, do you see the web now?)

You can't really argue that. Can you?

Next question: Would not the CONVERSE be true?

How then, could YOUR character CAUSE the other examples of men in your life TO betray you?

Sorry. Cause-effect is not there. It wasn't YOUR character, or nature, it was THEIRS.

Are you a Christian? One of the BEST verses in the Bible is

James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

If you are not Christian, or strongly practicing, I can translate that into secular speak as well, for the principle is the same.

Be the best person you can be. Don't let the [censored] get you down, and they won't

Got it? Easy to see and understand. Harder to do. I know. But it CAN be done.

Ask believer. A long time ago I hit her with a similar statement. She grabbed on to it and MADE it real for her. And it worked. Will work for you.

So let's talk about this string of under-comitted men that has been plaguing you.

Why does it happen?

Tell me if the next statement makes sense to you:

Pain can be comfortable.

Was it Plato who proposed "the cave" theory? Can't remember. It's about people raised in a cave and all they see are shadows on the cave wall of the reality outside. And to them, the shadows ARE reality. It is all they have known.

I would suggest that your comfort zone is with under-comitted men. On a spiritual, or subconcious if you prefer, level, you are probably seeking them out because that is what you know.

It's not your FAULT. And you are not defective. It is just what you have known. A child raised by foul-mouthed parents will curse. Is it the kids fault? No. Not until he REALIZES that sprinkling curse words in general sentences is unacceptable does it become his fault. (A little simplified, but you get the point).

So now you are realizing that this undercomittment you are experiencing is unacceptable. And your soul needs a reason why. So you blame yourself. Why not? Everyone else seems to, right?

Back to James 4:7.

Be the BEST you can be. You are probably doing that. Then RESIST those demons, the naysayers, the blamethrowers. It is an ACTIVE word that requires EFFORT.

Why are nice people picked on? Shouldn't the world say "They're really nice, leave them alone." Yes, it should. But it usually says "FRESH MEAT."

NICE doesn't mean WIMPY.

Resist them. The thoughts that plague and devalue your soul. They are JUST NOT TRUE. Your husbands choice of betrayal is NOT BECAUSE OF WHO YOU ARE, but because of WHO HE IS. I proved that above, and frankly don't care WHAT your mother told you. It's just not true. Think of how silly that actually sounds. What did you do? Go up to your husband with some Jedi mind trick and say "You will cheat on me."

Ask ANY functioning WS on this board if they were MADE to cheat. They'll tell you no.

Pick one of your nasty thoughts. Just one to start with. Write it down and tape it to your mirror in your bathroom, or your steering wheel. Somewhere you'll see it a few times. And when you see it, PROCLAIM, not say, PROCLAIM "That isn't me, I am THIS." And in a while, it'll leave you alone. I promise you that. Yeah, you'll be tested, but if you keep up the effort, you will prevail. Especially if you have the submit to God part right.

Little steps. Eat that elephant one bite at a time.

=======

As to your question:


Yes. It does. But I am familiar with that little bugger you got botherin' you in that wonderful little head. I can spot a self-esteem problem a mile away. So it probably isn't to everyone.

It comes through loud and clear with all of your apologies. You don't have to apologize to us for who you are. We like ya'. And you don't have to assume we have a negative feeling towards you either. We'll tell you if we do.

And if we DON'T like you and DON'T tell you, that's really OUR problem, not yours.

REALLY praying for you, as I HATE that self-esteem issue,

NCWalker

ok, maybe none of that was what you were looking for nc.

I DO have value. I want to have value! What is my value? I read the thread on EN about what SAHM would earn salaries. Can I claim 131,000/annually as my value. That didn't include all the animal caretaking, but that is my own bad, I guess.

Ncwalker, that was just mean. I'm gonna go get some sleep, so I can at least be valuable on the field trip 2moro with the 2ndgraders. At least, S7 thinks that I am valuable (He says that I am the BEST HUMAN BEING in the world,but they are gullible at that age) - I can maybe keep that going for a coupla' more years.

Goodnite,
jls

Good job NC.

jls - get some sleep missy.

SS

jls,

I am sorry. I somtimes HATE this forum. If you could see the look in my eyes when I typed it, it probably would have made a difference.

The tone of your post up above (not right above) conveyed to me, and again, I am reading what you type, not seeing it in your eyes, or hearing your voice, that you had a lot of self-blame for the betrayals in your life.

If I got that wrong, I'm sorry.

I was trying to show you - and apparently failed - that your husband's actions were NOT a reflection of YOUR value with a little parable.

I am probably too tired as well and didn't explain where I was coming from clearly.

So let's start fresh. I do care, I really do. How about humoring me and telling me what part bothered you? I will try and make it more clear. But tomorrow. And if you want me to leave you alone, just ask and I can do that too.

NCWalker

nc,

I WAS keeping an eye out for you last nite. Wanted to get into that fun in Idiotville, but wasn't up to typing that much. We crossposted. I wasn't mad at all. "That was just mean" was said with a smirk. Sorry, I forget you can't see that.

I don't want you to leave me alone ~jls says pleadingly~

nc, I have been here so long and read so much. I forget who is who sometimes. You are like LM, unforgettable. And THAT is a compliment.

I will reread this after the fieldtrip. And give it all hte time and reflection that it deserves.

Thanks nc, and SS too.

jls

r u 2 the "board" counselors? Both of you ask (AND answer) the hard stuff!