We are supposed to be in recovery. H reached the end of his emotional rope this week and said he wanted a "break, separation, vacation, whatever" because he could not take all the stress/emotions any longer. He stated that the stress of following EPs, meeting my ENs, and the pressure from me and JHC to follow MB principles was too much for him. In addition, he is dealing with his incredible anger at me as well as the guilt he is having over his own A. At first, I was upset by this break, but I have to come to realize we both needed it. So, I am enjoying this time taking care of myself and my kids.

He stated that the reason he wanted this break was so that he could come back with renewed energy to be able to follow the MB principles, but when we discussed it last night, he admitted that he is also considering divorce. He thinks that if he breaks up with me, that the pain caused by my affair will "...go away because I won't have to see you anymore" (not sure how we are going to swing that since we have 3 kids together). There has been no time limit placed on this "separation". He also removed his wedding ring because it causes him too much pain.

My ENs have not been met for awhile and I have been treated with increasing disrespect over the last few weeks. He has said some really awful things to me. I understand he is in pain because of what I did and I will accept that there will be a certain amount of lashing out that is expected, but I have a certain expectation of how I deserve to be treated. I have told him he can express his feelings to me about what I did, but I asked him to try not to LB. His actions are killing my feelings for him and my desire to make the marriage work. I do not want that to happen, but I am at a loss as to what to do to stop it. I am at an emotional low. He has apologized occasionally, but he continues to treat me horribly and LBs and then will not acknowledge it or apologize. Then, he gets irritated at me for bringing it up. I do not want to make things worse, but what am I supposed to do when is being cruel and not protecting me? This behavior is causing more damage to an already shaky marriage. This man is not the man I married. He would never have done the things he is doing now. I have my own LBs I am working on, but I try very hard to make sure I acknowlege when I do it and apologize for it (I am not always perfect, but I am working very hard on this and have made progress). Sometimes, I wonder if he is trying to hurt me so badly that I give up. I am also dealing with the pain of his A and his lack of remorse.

Have any of you dealt with any of this, and, if so, what did you do? Did it ever get better? Any advice is welcome.

Hi, Improving.

If he is still seeing the other woman at work, then you are not going to recover your marriage very quickly, if at all.

The same goes for you and other man.

You quit and find another job. He should do the same. Regardless, you are here, so you get to go first.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble- Thanks for the reply. Neither of us is seeing anyone.

Did you have any advice on what I can do in addition to quit my job? How should I handle things when he is treating me this way? I want to preserve my feelings for him. I am emotionally drained from the false recoveries and now, dealing with the fallout of my A. I just want to help things, not make them worse.

improving
I am in the a similar position as yourself except my H has been deployed for some weeks which constantly stalls our attempts at recovery.
We flip back to near the beginning and its hard to go through all of it over and over ..... but I am determined to because this is my responsibility.

From your post I am assuming your H had a very foolish 'revenge' affair and its all come back to haunt the both you along with your own affair to work through.

I think your boundaries on the sort of behaviour your H can 'dish' out to you are not unreasonable in the general scheme of things, however I do think that you must expect a lot of disrepectful attitude from him because right now he does not respect you. I suspect a part of him hates you and wants to be far away from you and another part of him is saying I still love her but how could she have started all this horror.
I'm not excusing his affair at all but in his mind I suspect he thought it was showing you how much you had hurt him, a foolish attempt at payback perhaps, in reality I think all hes done is really hurt himself & you more.
Hes probably disgusted with himself on top of all the affair issues and he wants to blame 'someone' for it all ...thats you.
Improving, one thing I acknowledged and to be honest still have trouble accepting is that my H is no where near me on the road to recovery. I am SOOOOO ready to move forward but he is I suspect - hes due home in the next week weeks being flown into Kuwait and then home - a long way behind me and I think may be resentful that I am in fact where I am in the recovery process. I'm not sure he will even conciously think of it that way but my IC/MC has been warning me to expect a lot of problems - he also had a lot of PTSD problems last time as well - it would appear to me your H is somewhat in the same situation.
From your post it seems to me you are very ready and willing to move forward but your H is way behind you, hes not even come to terms with the details of your affair I suspect let alone his own.
So what I am saying in short is that your H is not ready to move forward, you are and I suspect you are not taking this into account whne you want to discuss or talk about things. I mean its only been in March for goodness sakes..I confessed my A way back last year and we are still in this limbo of pain and hurt. OK yes its much better we talk CAREFULLY of the A, we know we love each other BUT do not know if that alone is enough.
I feel you are pushing him too much to 'commit' to recovery, I sorta made the same mistake I think we all do actually from what I have read, when hes not ready to.
What about a straight out clear discussion on his behaviour with you - you wont change his attitude for a long while so dont try - tell him no swearing, abuse or hurtful comments (but expect him to fail in this a few times) and give him a lot of space to work on what he wants to do. In effect its a bit like Plan A in reverse so to speak. Remind him you both are the parents of 3 small kids who love the both of you and deserve both parents in a good lovng home ... walking away from that will not help them or he both of you. Tell him not to trust your words but to trust your actions.
This would be so much better than him leaving and all the problems associated with that.

I do so hope you can work this out Improving, you have the desire and commitment on your side and I will pray your H will see that and want to join you.

God bless

oh a PS to above Improving..

please consider getting another job regardless of what your H does right now. This would be part of getting him to see & trust your actions ..... he may not say much but will notice ..I bet hes watching your actions like a hawke no matter what he says.

Gonna tell you from reading this is appears he is babbling. Unless he has a physical condition where his hand is swelling, that ring isn't taken off because it 'caused too much pain'. Then how is he suppose to ' come back with renewed energy to be able to follow the MB principles', then go back to 'considering divorce'.

Now if he were a doctor would and he gave conflicting diagnosis as such, what would you do? Similar when a spouse who is a WS starts to babble.

He is trying hard to appease you so he can go have his A. NOw go blow his cover and let him know he is babbling so he can have his A but you are already onto his trick, so if he does it, he now knows many know not just you.

That kind of reply is called 'reverse babble'. It is designed to throw the WS off track. They are temporary attempts to confuse their already confused yet stubborn mind on the A. If they insist on having the A at all costs, you have nothing to lose if at least they don't enjoy it because you have put such doubt in his mind. LOL!!!

L.

Improving
Orchid has hit on something here. Like you I am looking at it from a FWS view mainly, but Orchid is also viewing it as it is as well... hes cheated as well and feels he has an entitlement to do so ... but he does not - cheating is cheating is cheating - you will have to get through his attempts to continue Affair before any healing goes on.

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Gimble- Thanks for the reply. Neither of us is seeing anyone.
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This is from your signature line: "*Both still work with A partners. I am willing to quit, H is not. For me, R being hampered severely by continued lack of NC at job.

I am a little bit confused, Improving. Is contact at work ongoing or not?

Quote:
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Did you have any advice on what I can do in addition to quit my job? How should I handle things when he is treating me this way? I want to preserve my feelings for him. I am emotionally drained from the false recoveries and now, dealing with the fallout of my A. I just want to help things, not make them worse.
==================

I posted to you on another one of your threads about constancy. I also talked about why it is important for you to change jobs, and about setting an example for your husband and taking care of your children.

Others on this thread have talked to you about confronting your husbands continuing affair enabling behavior.

The picture that I am beginning to see, is a woman, flailing about frantically trying to get control of a monster that she helped to create.

What you have to get control of FIRST, before anything else, is yourself. Until you have done that, the best advice on the planet, is of no use to you.

As for controlling your husband, STOP TRYING. You simply can't control him. See the above paragraph.

All the best,
Gimble

AW .... you gave such excellent helpful advice to this woman. Thank you for that.This is an especially insightful remark:

[color:"blue"] "I feel you are pushing him too much to 'commit' to recovery." [/color]

This is exactly correct!

I have one tiny, but possibly important, detail to point out.
You said:

[color:"blue"] "Tell him no swearing, abuse, or hurtful comments." [/color]

The 'hurtful comments' is sorta difficult to define in situations like this. Sometimes the truth will hurt. So be sure the hurtful comment is something that hurts because it is an intended insult, and not just because it's the truth. Here's an example:

For instance, if her husband calls her an 'adultress' or a 'cheat' ... it's gonna hurt plenty alright, but it is a fact. If he calls her a different name, like the 'C' word, that crosses the line and is not a fact but a verbal slap.

I guess I am saying that one should NOT stand there and accept outright insults, but be sure that the BS is able to express the painful reality. A fine line to be sure ... and recovery is balancing a whole bunch of fine lines ... attempted during one of the most emotionally wrenching times of your life.

AW, you are such a great gal. Lot's of admiration for you and prayers for your recovery ... not to mention your belly.

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Hi Pep]

yes Improving what I was really wanting to say & Pep did make a lot clearer, is that I meant abusive words like sl*t & C word & the like. Look it will probably come out at times from him, my H did it a few times and it got very difficult & hurtful so I'm a bit sensitive to it, but you need to say stop, call me a cheater etcetc but NOT the other degrading words. May need to remove yourself from him until he stops. Of course you may feel like saying similar so dont say that to him either.

Its likely that if you let such denigration go on [should it start] things will spiral way out of control. Allow him to express anger & hurt but not abuse. Thats a fine line as pep says but be aware of issue.

Let us know how things are going ..all the best ... AW

Thank you for your reply. Sounds like in many ways our situations are similar. How do you manage to deal with everything?

I am ready and willing to move forward, to understand what got us here, learn from our mistakes, and build a better marriage. I know R will be a hard and bumpy road and I am prepared for that. Unfortunately, we have dual As to deal with, so the emotions I have from his A affect me, as well as me needing to be supportive of him because of what I did. H states his A was not a revenge A, that he was "...moving on with his life because he thought he had lost me." I am hampered by my pain from what he did and needing to see effort on his part to show me he wants this marriage. The false recoveries really shook my faith and trust in him. I think I have felt that his lack of action was because of her, but he said it is not. He is just having a very hard time dealing with the pain I have caused him. I recognized recently that I was pushing too hard and I told him so. I am trying to be patient, I really am. Because of his A, I am so needing to see his effort though. It's been a real eye-opening experience to realize that I need to give him this space he needs, despite what I may need. I want to do what needs to to be done. I would not be here working on this if I did not think it was worth saving.

Thank you for your support and understanding. It is nice to know I am not alone.

I know I need to quit. I am having a hard time with this decision right now because I feel like he may be telling me in a few weeks that he is divorcing me, and if that is the case, I will need a job that will fit my needs, as well as my kids. On the other hand, actions do speak louder than words, and I do not want to continue to hurt him and our marriage. Believe me, this is something I am thinking about regularly.

Orchid-

I truly believe he is not with OW at this time. He states the ring used to make him feel close to me and was a source of joy and that now it just triggers his bad feelings. I understand this, but it does not make it hurt any less. And this, coupled with the talk of divorce, does make me confused as to where things stand. Yet, I have dealt him a terrible blow (very recently) and I think it is natural that he would be confused. He says his feelings change depending on when you catch him. I am very confused too, but I know I want this marriage to work. But, I have also had more time to process all of this. I have to trust my instincts, I do not think he is with OW at this time, but I am aware it can restart at any time and I am looking for signs.

Thank you for your reply.

Gimble,

I am sorry, I see the confusion--I have updated my sig to reflect this. To me, it is not NC because they still work together. However, he does not converse with her. If he has to say anything to her (very rare), it is sent in e-mail which I have access to (and he lets me know if he has to do this. I have done the same for him).

You mentioned his "continuing A enabling behavior". Do you mean his working there still or not always following EPs? I have read the other threads, but what you are referring to specifically is escaping me.

I do not feel like I am flailing. I am confused sometimes and that is why I seek guidance from people who have been here. Yes, I helped to create this mess, but I am trying my best to do what I can do to make things better. It is a learning process and I am learning. Do I know more about myself than I did two weeks ago? Absolutely. I have to learn to improve. I have to learn, so I can be the best person I can be. This will not happen overnight and I am proud of the progess I have made. Each day is a learning experience. I am doing the best I can under the circumstances. I am trying to reflect on my own actions and how I can improve on myself. I know that I cannot make him do anything. All I can do is change me (these were recent things I have come to understand).

I recognize that I was trying to control his behavior, I am trying not to do that now. However, what I need help on is how to deal with his LBing without making things worse for us. That was what I was asking about. I do not think the question is unreasonable. You all have been here, I am new to this. I would like some guidance.

Pep-

Thanks for replying--you always have very wise advice. I think my push for commitment was based on my fear from the false recoveries. I needed to see that he wanted this marriage to work--I still do. But, I realize now he does not have that to give me right now. I just have to be patient and let things pan out the way they are going to. We are in an unusual sitch because we have to deal with both As. Double the pain and recovery. I am constantly weighing out what I need (because of his A), and what he needs (because of mine). It is not an easy place to be.

Hi, Improving.

Quote:
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You mentioned his "continuing A enabling behavior". Do you mean his working there still or not always following EPs? I have read the other threads, but what you are referring to specifically is escaping me.
============================

I am basically referring to his blowing of sunshine into certain places as a cover for his ongoing actions, such as his affair being YOUR fault.

Here is the hard part for you Improving. You are suffering from guilt because of your affair. You have yet to face all the underlying facts of why you did what you did, much less all the subtleties contained therein. This is normal, except that you are having to deal with your husbands affair from a point of incomplete understanding. That is doubly hard.

Not only do you have to come to terms with why you did what you did, you have to learn why your husband has/is doing what he is doing, and deal with that. He is in the same boat as you, but you are here, so you get to start first.

1) Calm down. This is NOT GOING TO RESOLVE QUICKLY. It just isn't going to happen. You are in for a long haul and a lot of work. There is going to be a lot of pain involved.

2) Study the Harley articles on this site and learn how to do a proper Plan A.

3) As Orchid told you, confront your husband's enabling actions. Do this without 'love busting', but let him know that you know what he is up to.

4) Do NOT let your own guilt cripple you from doing the things you must do.

5) Don't let your husband use your guilt to keep you from addressing his behaviors of entitlement.

Quote:
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I recognize that I was trying to control his behavior, I am trying not to do that now. However, what I need help on is how to deal with his LBing without making things worse for us. That was what I was asking about. I do not think the question is unreasonable. You all have been here, I am new to this. I would like some guidance.
=======================================

You don't 'try' not to control. You just stop doing it since you can't control him anyway. This is important.

I am trying to give you the guidance you are requesting. Part of the guidance is that you must stop being 'grabby' or 'needy'. Whenever you do that you are pushing him further away. That is also what happens when you attempt to control him. His instinct is to get away from you.

Yes, your question is reasonable, but you need to listen to the answers. You ARE flailing about. Part of stopping that is to stop the desperate behavior with your husband.

Are you following me?

All the best,
Gimble

He may not be physically with the OW but emotionally and mentally he is still way out there. So in essence he is still having an A. The EA portion takes longer to overcome.

So you must develope a good plan. One that removes you from his chaos while you keep the ability to create chaos and confusion with his A. It is simple t/d. Create doubt. Very hard for a guy to get it on, if he is worried about 'other things'. Many a BS have been blamed because the WSH can't do the OW because he is sooo depressed. LOL!!! Some OWs are dumb enough to call the BS' and complain!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Imagine that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Improving
I'm guessing you are so confused right now aren't you?

I suppose with your questions our first response is to ans as much as we can for you.

Lets stop and go back a moment,

FIRST of all just suspend all actions you are doing to try to keep H just for a few hours right now.
GO and read ALL the plans & articles on this site, learn the little language codes like LB's etc off by heart - which you seem to have a handle on by the looks of it but check it over anyway.

THEN, order his needs her needs or try & get it from the library or ebay or the BIG retail book shops ....look its even available in Australia so it shouldn't be to hard to find ...thats your bible so to speak on the A issue from now on ... though a few poeple advise some other books to help and they also seem to be of great help.

You can get the info on the books as well as easy access to the parts to read over & over at these links ...

WATS Quick Start Guidelines for BS

OneGoings General Welcome for newbies

Read the info again slowly and assure yourself you know the basics and if in doubt pls ask questions, plenty will be able to ans.

The first thing you need to do is I suggest is get a GOOD PRO MARRIAGE M counsellor [mc] there is an article on how to find a good mc on this site so pls read and follow the guide.
I suggest this due to the complicated issues of two affairs - hey I had the only A in our M and I needed a IC & MC to help me, still do actually lucky I got one who does both, a qualified psychiatrist. NOT CHEAP but very very good. As I keep getting told by the gang here 'cheaper than a divorce'

In the meantime follow Plan A while also following accountability to your H, eg let him know if you are going to go blow your nose ... I think you get my meaning ...he may grunt or mutter who cares blah blah blah but it will get through to him without him realising it that you are telling him everything you do when he is not there.

I know he says its not revenge but I have a good aussie saying for that ...... 'bull sh*t" dear. He hurt he wanted you to hurt ... that brutal that simple.
Other issues may now be involved but that drove it in my opinion as it was so close following your D day.
I suspect he will have trouble admitting that to himself as it means he'd have to accept WHY he did it and deep inside he's not ready for that at all.

Just get that reading & MC done first improving, meanwhile in Plan A giving him that little bit of extra space, I feel the confronting re his affair should happen with a MC involved, the situation is pretty complicated by now.

Now your job.... ok ys you should leave, I had to BUT like I did find the NEW job first or get moved from the area you are currently in where you have to have contact with OM. Apply for promotion, another job whatever it takes. It will show your H 'hey I did this for us what about you" ... dont expect to much from him while hes still in the fog though ... just think back to your own time in the depth of the A ..crazy thinking hey??
In your case I would take a good long look at the new job, is it stable etc etc because if the worse happens you will need a job - ok I'm just being practical here not making any forecast - with kids you dont take risks any more ok?

You CAN do this Improving but as you've been advised it will take a long time ..months, maybe years .. who knows?
So come here drop in and say hello ask questions, seek advice and we'll do the best we can to help.

cheers for now

AW oh P.S.... if you need to email & chat about anything my email is attached you are welcome to do so <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Gimble-

He has never said his A was my fault. He actually said that it was not when I expressed anger at myself for what I did. He said,"Don't ever blame yourself for what I did. You are not responsible for what I did."

You are right that I am conflicted in so many ways: dealing with my feelings about what I did and what he did. But, I do know I want this marriage to work. There are days that are much harder than others and the crisis will overwhelm me and I ask for assistance from you all. However, I am in this for the long haul. I do not expect it to resolve overnight, but I am sometimes hurt because when I do not see my H trying it brings up my fears of his A starting again and reminds me of the false recoveries (again, dealing with dual A's makes things that much more difficult). We both need to change in order for this relationship to be healthy for us both.

I have read the articles and I have HN/HN and LBs. We have attended the workshop (but, H has put the Lessons on hold at this time. We have an appt with JHC this Sunday). I do have a hard time with Plan A sometimes-- partly because I am in pain from his LBs/not getting my needs met, and partly because I am just starting to understand that I will need to communicate differently with him than ever before and eliminate LBs. I am working on all of this and it is better than it ever was. But, I admit I am not perfect. Plus, H has said he does not want me to meet his needs right now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I am trying to Plan A. I know it is about me, not him.

You stated "let him know that you know what he is up to". I am confused. What do you think he is doing? I do not believe he is with OW. Could I be wrong? Sure. But, I do not think he is with her now. You also refer to his behaviors of entitlement. What are you referring to specifically? I get the impression you think he is still having an A. To my knowledge, he is not.

I am not allowing my own guilt to excuse his actions/inactions. I do know that one of his biggest issues is that I am too controlling. I felt like he said he was going to follow the EN Plan and do EPs and when he did not always do it, I pushed him to do it because I needed to know he did want this marriage to work (the false recoveries from his A were very hard on me). I know now that I cannot make him do anything, but I would love it if he would do these things. I understand that it does not help if I am "grabby". I am hurting right now so I do not always do everything perfectly, but I really have made some positive changes.

Gimble, I do not feel like I am flailing about regularly. I have actually felt very much in control of myself most times. I have actually received many compliments, in the last week or two, from people in my RL, who say they can see how much better I am doing and that I am much more confident. Do I come here when I am at my wits end? Yes. Do I need guidance? Yes. I do not show my best side when I am here. I do the best I can with the information that I have and the support that I gather. I guess I feel like you are disappointed in me/annoyed with me and I am not quite sure why. What is it that you feel I am doing "wrong" that constitutes "flailing"? Have I had moments when I did not feel in control? Absolutely. But, I have been trying to make sense of a lot of things and it is not easy. I do the best I can with what I have. I do read your replies and listen to the answers and would like you to continue to reply.

Improving

Orchid-

I am not sure that I have been very clear. He is not currently having an A that I know of. Speaking of which, should I continue to look for evidence that he is even if I do not think he is? It would certainly explain some of his behavior.

Basically, I think when I was caught up in my A, H became very resentful and he allowed his past resentments overwhelm him. This may have been a defense mechanism. He said he built up a "wall" between us and he has had issues since letting that wall be removed. Part of it is his fear of being hurt by me again. I have those same fears with him, but I know we are not going to get anywhere if I do not let him in. I know we have no chance if I do not risk being hurt again by him.

Anyway, he removed himself from me emotionally because I was not there for him. Now, I do not know how much of this was occurring before she came into the picture. I do know that he told me "I don't know if I love you anymore" when he was with her (I looked up the dates). There has been a lot of re-writing of the marital history, but there are things that need to be worked on legitimately. It is just hard to figure out which is which (fog vs. reality). So, he was already emotionally removed from me and resentful before she came into the picture. Then, of course, his feelings for her confused everything. I agree with you that even if he is not with her, if he is not here with me emotionally it is like he is still having an A. I am not sure that it is the feelings for her that are causing it...I think it is his issues with me (he says it is not OW). He was ready to "move on with [his] life" (I pointed out that he should have told me so I was aware and so that he did not hurt me the same way I hurt him by having an A).

Anyway, Orchid, thank you for your help through this mess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />