It's now been 4 months since D-Day. My wife still won't tell me much about what went on during the year of her affair. As time goes on, she has started to minimize it. Now she refuses to call it an affair. She says it wasn't romantic, just phone calls to a guy at work.

Of course I discovered a lot of things that says it was much more than just phone calls. The change in her behavior during the year she involved with him alone says it was much more then "just phone calls". I know she was with him a couple nights and at least one of those they were alone. He sent her text messages saying he loved her, and she was diagnosed with an STD in September.

I just don't think I will be able to completely get over this without her telling me the whole story. Even though I know quite a bit, she won't admit to anything outside of what I have found out for fact, and even some of that she has minimized to nothing.

Can you really get over an affair if your spouse refuses to talk about it and give you details? Should I get over it?

For my daughter's sake I am trying. I'm not as angry anymore, but I still can't shake the need to hear her explain and tell me everything. To be honest, I don't even understand how I can still be in love with this woman, but I am. My mind tells me I should be running, but my heart won't let me.

grove, I don't know what you mean by "get over" her affair. Your marriage will never recover if that is what you mean. A marriage with rampant deceit and betrayal will not survive.

See, she inflicted a bloody wound on your marriage with the greatest betrayal a spouse can commit. Your marriage is mortally wounded. And unless something is done to repair the damage, you will stay wounded and will likely die.

Trust will never ever be restored as long as she has secrets with the OM to which you are not privy. You will never trust her. And you should never trust her. She is an untrustworhty person who is has no remorse whatsoever about inflicting great betrayal against the person she is supposed to love the most. You will never be safe with her.

Without trust and honesty, a true intimate, healthy marriage is impossible.

Your daughter will grow up and learn that its ok to be treated disrespectfully and to never set boundaries with her partner.

Also, if the OM is now "just her friend" then I would suggest you invite him over for dinner so you can all be "friends." If thats all he is, there should be no issue.

i feel like the same way you do. My H had phone calls and even caught him in the act but all he does is bluff his way out of it. I asked him to move out and it has been two months and I feel misery, loneliness and going through anxiety attacks. I don't know what to do. Now he tells me he is better by himself and I had asked him is this over he said no but it doesn't seem the marriage is going in the right direction. I do not know what to do- any suggestions

Well i kind of Love Busted my way to a divorce today. My wife is planning the end of the year after work party. I asked what she was doing to insure that he wouldn't be there, or if he would be there. I told her that I thought it was inappropriate that the party excluded spouses. She said that it didn't exclude, but that no one brought their spouses. She said that it would embarrass her if I came.

So I again asked what she was doing to insure that he wouldn't be there. Would he be invited? She said everyone was invited, but that she doubted he'd come. If he came, she'd leave. I told her that I was upset that she was inviting him, even if it was for the whole staff. I thought he might view this as an invitation from her since he knew she was the person planning the party.

She got mad, I got mad and it ended up her saying I was trying to control her and that she couldn't take it anymore. she again said that it wasn't like it was sexual and that she thought I needed to get over this. The trouble is, I'm not going to get over this until she completely severs all contact with him and it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

She went to her parents for a cookout and I stayed home. I told her that I wanted to take our daughter to my mom's tomorrow without her. She said she'd like to go, but I said there wasn't any point to her going since she wanted to divorce. I think it is time for either Plan B or divorce.

Now this ticks me off! She is still a WW even if the affair has ended. What a hurtful and cruel thing to say. What kind of work party doesn't want spouses to attend? No work I would want to be involved in.

Time for you to set some boundaries Grove. And I am not saying divorce either.

Easy to set a boundary, much harder to enforce. I've told her what I need, she doesn't seem to be willing to comply. She's actually upset with me. She thinks I'm being controlling. Oh well, I'm just getting tired of this whole mess.

I was actually hoping that this might bring us closer, instead we just keep drifting farther and farther apart.

Grove,

We are in somewhat similar situations. You have the "advantage" of still living with your WS, I have the "advantage" of my WS admitting an EA/PA. Both of our WS refuse to reveal any details about the A and still work with the OP and are stonewalling us out of their lives.

I found that if I assumed that the A was ongoing until WS agreed on NC and that was clearly established, it took a lot of pressure off tracking WS every move. I realized that I can not control WS and that it was a waste of energy to try. Now I'm concentrating on me, on healing myself, on being a good mom. All of our friends and the family know about the A. Everyone thinks that WH is behaving like an idiot, so he has cut himself off from nearly everyone except the OW. WS comes by nearly on a daily basis to find a happy, peaceful home, two lovely children, a cheerful, affectionate wife and a life that he could be a part of, if he accepts my clear cut boundaries: no contact with OW and the instillment of the POJA are non-negotiable boundaries. Until then he gets to live in the dog house and I accept that the affair will run its course and what will be, will be.

Meanwhile no more power struggles, no more LBs, no more lying and manipulating, never ever again. It feels good to let go and get a life.

Read the link to ark^^'s post in my signature. It sure helped me!

Grove, please check out this thread. Although your situation & circumstances is different from the BS in the above thread, you might find some of the responses helpful and applicable on you.

Suzet

Grove,
The way you describe your WW, it sound as if she’s feeling that she has the power to manipulate almost any situation where you’re concerned; but not just the power…but the entitlement to do so. I get the feeling that she is of the mind that this is her role in the relationship. At least that's what I’m hearing.

It's as if YOU and your "attitude" about anything she does, has done or will do are nothing more then irritating inconveniences to her…that she needs to tolerate. That your feelings are certainly not serious matters due serious consideration. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised that if you were to give the matter some thought, it would become clear to you that this is how she’s been thinking about you for very long time.

Hence, her interpretation of what she’s been up to (the affair) is possibly that it was just a diversionary activity that she has a right to enjoy but places no real importance on…so why should you? Or maybe I’m wrong….I’m just saying that this is what I’m hearing.

If this is the case, however, then your problem is more significant then just the affair that she’s had. Your problem is far deeper. It concerns her respect for you as a man and husband as well as the level of commitment she may feel to having any relationship with you at all.

Grove, I kind of feel that trying to reconcile your marriage is going to require more fundamental changes in the relationship then you may think. If I’m correct in my assumptions then her affair and her current attitude or symptoms of some thing much greater. And to be honest, I don’t really see how you can patch this up…or go on with the marriage as it is in its current state.

I kind of think that what’s required here is a total re-construction of the *marriage* and the *relationship*… separately but together in “real time.”

If it were me, I would back off on the whole thing and work to get some better perspective as to the dynamics of the situation. In doing so I would make no demands of her about anything at the moment. No questions to her about anything…(not just the affair but about any current and on-going activities). I would have no relationship discussions at all and absolutely no arguments with her about anything. In fact I would go into a kind of affectionate lack if interest mode…I would be apathetic about everything in your mutual lives accept your child.

Instead, I would focus my efforts in disconnecting from her emotionally. I would be inclined to almost treat her like a valued friend and room mate rather then a wife. I would let her OD herself on her independence for a while until she begins to understand that you are withdrawing from her. Until she begins to feel some loss. Until she feels some loss, I don’t think she will understand your value…and this is a lady that sounds as if she needs to become re-acquainted with your value as a man and husband. Think of this as kind of an emotional Plan B. LOL

Eventually she will come at you looking for a showdown. If you behave correctly, it will take her some real time to figure things out. After all, you’re planning to be kind, considerate, civil and totally non-confrontational. LOL So it’s going to take some effort on her part to begin understanding that the *you* that she’s used of having around has left the house so to speak. This should cause her to begin paying some serious attention to what’s going on in her marriage. It should also provide you with an opportunity to tell her how you feel about her and the marriage and what kind of NEW boundaries you want in place if the marriage is to survive. If this is an approach that doesn’t work then you may want to think about a real Plan B…but first I would give this scheme a chance

Just my thoughts.
Coach

I've been thinking about trying some sort of emotional plan b for some time now. I think coach hit our situation fairly close. While my wife is sorry for the affair, I think it is mostly because she got caught.

Everyone says to drop the affair talk, but it's constantly on my mind. She hasn't done anything to either repair the damage from her affair or show any type of sacrifice for the marriage. It's all about me changing so she will be willing to stay. That's fine when I'm on anti-depressants, but it's very emasculating when I'm not.

Our marriage had some problems, a lot of which my wife created and my reaction made worse. Now she doesn't want to work on what she did to cause our marriage problems, she wants me to accept everything she wants and also move on about the affair. How did she "gain the advantage", shouldn't this be about give and take and being equal partners? We both talked about how difficult this is to watch our marriage and relationship disintegrate right in front of our eyes, but we both seem unwilling to do anything to save it.

Grove, in situations like yours where the A is over, withdrawal is over, and things have not changed, the 180 strategy can be very empowering (I think you can call it an “emotional plan B”). You see, if the same strategy has gotten you the same dismal results, stop using something that isn't working and try something different. That’s what the 180 strategy is all about. This strategy is like throwing a cog in the wheels that might shake up more than just the marriage - it might improve the marriage, wake up your W and encourage her to make the necessary changes you need in this M.

Below are 180 degrees guidelines Michelle Weiner Davis divorcebusting.com. Not all of them may apply in your situation. The entire point of a 180 strategy is CHANGE for example if you are telling them you love them, stop saying it. If you not saying it, start saying it. It's important to look at this list and apply it to each situation rather than follow it exactly. But this a good starting place and probably most of it will apply.

Make a commitment to doing these things for no less than 21 days. 3 months would be about optimum. If there is a change for the better even small changes at first, keep doing as long as it's working.

Suzet

Grove,
Just a word of caution about the180 list. It’s no secret that I’m a huge fan of this strategy but you have to know that implementing this list and a 180 in general, requires a very flexible attitude and amazing self control. It also requires that you be emotionally disconnected to the point where you can be objective about everything that is going to be happening.

To do this right, you need to almost be able to function outside yourself as an observer. As if you’re watching this happen to some one else rather then being a participant. It almost goes beyond doing a great Plan A. You have to think of yourself as being emotionally bullet proof or made of Teflon! LOL And you are never allowed to loose your temper or respond to her in anger. Not Ever!

No LBs! Instead, you have to develop a kind of sardonic demeanor that communicates your disapproval. It means being willing to turn your back and walking away from her…and doing it right in her face when she begins getting salty with you. It means you acting independently of her, which many here consider a huge LB on its own right…but in my opinion is a far better strategy then trying to communicate with deaf ears.

You’ve already begun to do some of the 180 to some extent when you told her that you were taking the kids to your parent’s house and that she wasn’t invited. The difference is that the correct 180 way of doing it would have been to tell her the same, but that she was invited but wasn’t REQUIRED TO GO IF SHE CHOSE NOT TO.

In other words, you always give her the opportunity to participate with the family, but by invitation only. Begin to plan family events in your own without regard to her time or availability. I.e. the biggest dinger would be a family vacation…you and the kids going together with her coming along if she wants to, but only if she could do it on your schedule and according to your plans. “Hey honey, I’ve made reservations for the kids and I at Disney Land in Orlando next weekend. Do you want to come along?”

You can see how this would effect her thought process I’m sure. And she will go ballistic at some point…threatening divorce, separation or even your death! LOL, LOL! It’s at that point that things become sticky. It’s at this point that you know she is out of control and that you are in control…and make no mistake, at this stage your relationship needs to be about control.

How I handled a similar conversation with my then WW was to simply equivocate with her on the subject and drive her crazy! LOL Answering her questions with questions and feigning my lack of understanding as to her anger. LOL I must admit that it still gives me feelings of evil pleasure to have been able to give her back a little of what she had been serving up to me for so long.

The trick is to always be nice, never mean spirited or angry. You must always be available to her (like her company party for example. Let her know that you’re available to go with her, but not available to stay home and baby sit!)
You need to be able to keep your mouth totally shut and just listen to her no matter what. Saying less id always better. Say as little as possible on any subject. Never answer a question, approve of a request or take any action, EVER…unless it’s to your advantage to do so.

You’ve got to become Mr. Teflon…letting it all slide by you and off you until her frustration weakens her resolve to the point that she is ready to seriously discuss the marriage with an open mind and willingness to make some changes.

The question is, are you up to it and do you have enough self-control to pull it off?
Coach

Grove...

I agree with Suzet and Coach.

Especially the part about your reactivity to your WW's actions and words.

Do not allow her words to manipulate you......"paddle your own canoe" so to speak. Be the Teflon man.

And, above all, look at yourself, and make some real changes in yourself that your WW can see and feel. I'm reading Dr. Phil's book "Relationship Rescue". It has "homework" for you to do, and takes longer than just reading the book, but it is worth it.

It really makes you look at who you are, and some of the reasons you act the way you do. And helps you to change those things.

As for full disclosure....I have gotten none of that. And the questions I have asked (some of them were asked and answered before), have all been answered with different - and confusing - answers. In other words, I have never gotten a straight or true answer to any of them.

What can you live with?

All the best....

K

It sounds like a great plan; I will do my best to implement starting today. My concern is that we both are starting to feel our relationship is too damaged and we are just prolonging the inevitable. We both still say we love each other, but it's getting difficult to be in the same room together. I would like for my marriage to work, but not if it means being walked all over. I have a big mouth, so this will be difficult, but I will do my best.

Question:
Should I "stay at home and baby-sit" the night of her after work party or should I make plans to go out myself?

My wife has hinted that she plans to pursue the divorce after this Friday. Should I say nothing and wait to see if she will go through with her plans?

You should not ever stay at home being the baby sitter for your WW? If she plans to be out on her own then let her worry about the details. In fact, if it were me, I would go out of town that night and take the baby(s) with me! I would not be home either the day before or the day after her little party.

She’s going to do what ever she's going to do...you have no say in it and no control over it. But this way if she decides to stay out all night with the OM, at least you don’t come off looking like some idiot that doesn’t get it! Don’t complain and don’t argue about any of it. Don’t ask her any questions and don’t offer any reasons or answers to any questions. Go have fun with the kids and let her wonder where you all are.

So here’s the thing. If you think that Friday is going to be when she initiates Divorce proceedings, hire a lawyer today if you haven’t done so already? Get to some one fast and make sure it’s a junkyard dog! LOL.

And don’t let yourself be forced or talked into leaving the house no matter what! If she wants to separate, tell her that she is free to leave, but you’re staying with your children! DO NOT LEAVE FOR ANY REASON! And keep your lawyer in the loop. WWs have been know to get squirrelly when the gloves come off. They are capable of doing some real down and dirty stuff…claiming that you are an abusive husband or father etc. or even calling the police and saying that she fears for her life! Believe me it happens.

No matter what, you have to stay cool, never raising your voice and not arguing with her. Hard I know but do it anyway! Be in control! Get it. She will try to get you to loose it! Don’t allow it to happen. The one the does the yelling is the one that looses in this kind of situation.

And if it comes down to a standoff, both in the house together, thinking about divorce, then the 180 plan becomes even more important. It’s the only way to survive in that kind of situation. Be ready. You can do this and you can save this marriage as well! But you can only win if you are in control of yourself and do not allow her to manipulate you into becoming who she wants to make you out to be!

Stay close now. You may need lots o help in the coming days. You can do this! Take heart, get tough and be ready.
Coach

Can you stay together without full disclosure?
I couldn't but it's up to the individual.
It probably won't work out unless there is at least, a bunch of disclosure.

I did not need to know all the gory details. He slept with her, more than once. The marriage will never be the same-period. I accept that and have moved on. We are doing great 5 years out. It happened, you either accept or not. I cannot change the past. Neither can he nor your wife. If you are sure it is over, then you need to make your choice, even if it is only for the sake of your daughter. Your wife does not deserve a life sentence for making a mistake, but this is up to you, she was wrong to have an affair. When you take that step, you will be on your way. I too got caught up in the blow by blow for a while until I realized that lingering was not helpful. I think this is a natural stage. Funny, I still do many of the 180s without knowing that I was doing this. I don't know if that is good, but I let him come to me. I have backed off in many ways and I think men like this, I'm not sure about women, but it is worth a try.

Unfortunately going out of town is not an option. I've burned way too much leave after d-day. I went through a bad patch and couldn't work for a week of so. It would be great to just go away for the night.

I think I should mention that my wife claims that she will leave the party if the OM is there. I'm not sure I believe her, but she does inform me when she sees him during meetings. She claims she never runs into him during the day, which is hard to believe, but not impossible.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall during this little after work party, but I'm done with the private eyes and snooping. I think the fact I used one to catch her is still causing a lot of problems for my wife. It's very difficult to rebuild a marriage after using a detective to catch your spouse. She asked if I was going to spy on her or show up. I told her no on both accounts.

So if I'm not going to take my daughter out of town for the night, the consesus would be that I should inform her that she needs to make arrangements for a babysitter?

new jersey, his situation is very different from a WS who refuses to disclose details. His WS refuses to admit the affair.....AT ALL. And she gave him an STD. So, this is much bigger than just missing a few details, she is actively LYING to him to this day about the affair and continues to see the OM.

For me, grove, this would be a deal breaker. Honesty would be the LEAST I would accept in order to stay with damaged goods. It's hard enough even with honesty and a willingness to repair the damage, I don't how anything less would suffice. It just seems impossible to me.