I'd like some input here. My husband is fuming because I referred to his "mistake(s)" as an affair. In summary, he had a four encounters (involving a man, his "best friend"): two explicitly involving oral and manual sex and two involving, and including, the man's wife and her cousin (a foursome), fondling. He refuses to acknowledge any or all of these events as "affairs" because 1) he didn't feel any love or emotional connection, 2) he didn't make the first move or initiate these events, 3) they weren't "relationships", just sex; and 4) they didn't involve intercourse. He is very angry about my association of words and that I posted it on the forum. He said it's an unfair description. Anybody want to offer their opinion? He also feels it's unreasonable for me to be angry and hurt by the fact that he had a relationship with this man for 10+ years, seven of which these events spanned; he sees these events as "only totaling about 30 minutes out of all that time". I not only feel betrayed, but humiliated (I thought these people were "friends."). He thinks I'm overreacting: This was not an affair; He was not unfaithful for "all those years"; He did not live a lie.

If he didn't have an affair, why didn't he tell you about it? If you cant/wont do it in front of your spouse then it is an Affair/betrayal...

I have to ask, is your husband BI or gay? That is just not normal to do those sorts of things and not acknowledge that it is wrong...sounds like he is in denial of the fact...

yes, your H had an affair on you...he "fondled" someone else...Even if it is emotional, it is considered an Affair...

If you wouldn't do it in front of your spouse then you shouldn't do it at all!

Hi, RF2005.

Okay, so don't call it an affair. Let's be more precise for his sake.

How about this.

"My husband has at had at least 4 known sexual liaisons with a guy, 2 of those include a group grope with the guy, his wife and cousin."

The facts are what they are, his desire to play with the wording tells me that he simply doesn't want to face the truth of what he has done.

All the best,
Gimble

Affair - a romantic or sexual encounter of generally a brief duration.

There are many types of affairs: Physical, mental, emotional just to name a few.

He says only 30 minutes total of all these years? Ok, let's go with that excuse and say, how much damage can a person(s) do if they had access to your bank account for let's say 30 minutes over a period of 7 years? Hm..... each transaction to withdraw funds could be devastating. Your M is worth more than a bank account. Let him chew on that illustration.

It appears your H is angry he has been exposed. He can't lead this secret lifestyle and right now he is mad for this reason.

You have to decide if you want to live with such an unrepentant one. In 30 minutes he could contact a variety of sexual disases, then he could bring them home to you.

It's not about how long or even how much, it's about his attitude and what he is going to do about it. Asking for your forgiveness is just the start.

L.

It's your call. Did you ever agree to have an open marriage? No? Then it's cheating. Good grief. Looking for a loophole. He sounds like a real hero.

GC

Affairs can run the gamut between ONS [one night stands] to LTA [long term affairs], and they can be either solely emotional [sharing of ones deepest thoughts and feelings], solely physical [sex [oral, vaginal, anal, etc.], kissing, heavy petting]; or a full blown [emotional and physical], but despite their differences they ALL share one thing in common, SECRECY. In fact without secrecy, an affair will most likely not happen. The fact is that when MOST affairs are finally exposed, their days become numbered.

Remind your H, Mr D Ni All, that unsolicited oral and manual sex performed on him by another person other than you, his W, IS STILL extra-marital sex. And last time I looked, extra-marital sex IS a physical affair.

TMCM

Refl 2005:

If it involves another person and its something you Would NOT DO in front of (or with complete knowledge of) Your Spouse ...then its cheating.

No Matter How you want to spin it after that.

You feel betrayed and humiliated. You feel that he cheated on you and had affairs. It's YOUR definition that matters. Call it whatever he wants to, but has he acknowledged your pain and shock at all???? Has he accepted any responsibility for his violating behaviors???

Would he feel that his behaviors were just "mistakes" and not a violation of your marriage vows if YOU had been the one doing them? "Well H, I didn't initiate any of it, and it wasn't intercourse, and I didn't have an emotional connection, and I'm sure you wouldn't mind that I did it with some friends, one of whom we continue to see."

He doesn't like your association of words...posting that association on the forum...and feels it's an "unfair" description?? Sounds like an "IT'S ALL ABOUT ME!" pity party....just as it has been for some time when it came to his sexual choices and behaviors. And "unfair"?? It's not about fairness. It's about how you feel. And I doubt he consulted you about his choices beforehand to see if you thought they were "fair" within your marital commitments.

Speaking of fairness, did he use protection of any kind to prevent STDs? And yes, STDs can certainly be spread with oral contact...and sometimes manual contact..depending on where that "manual" goes to next on or in the body...or if someone has an open cut.

How and when did this information all come out to you? Were you aware of any bisexual behaviors on his part before now?

I think that I'd try and stay focused on your feelings about what happened whenever you are dealing with him. You feel like they were affairs. You feel betrayed. I suspect he's arguing terminology to try and distract from his guilt and wrongdoing. Or to try and justify it to himself. Or to make him seem less "bad" to you. But you already feel "bad" regardless of how he wants to label it.

If he starts to argue about what to call it or how bad it was...maybe say "H. I'm not willing to spend time arguing about what to call what you did. This is how I feel about your choices. This is what I want to work on...this is what I want you to respond to...not what to call it."

Oh by the way....Perhaps your H. needs to consider that it takes even less than 30 minutes to rape or murder someone......."But your Honor, how can you possibly hold this against me? Look at all the years and minutes I've behaved myself, been a good man!!!

I'm sorry you are having to go through this. You didn't deserve it.

You have expressed many points I have attempted to get across to my H. There are moments when he is able to acknowledge what his choices have done to me, to our marriage, to our family. Then, others when he goes into a rage and spews ugly comments and names at me. He states he is, and has been, dealing with shame, guilt and remorse. Sometimes I believe him, other times I don't. Sometimes I feel like he's feeling this way only because I know; not because of what he actually did.

I found out five months ago, and started therapy about a month after I found out, although didn't tell my therapist about the "real" reason I was there until about two months ago (She knows our whole family, and treated my H for alcohol abuse.) My H refuses to go to counseling because he's too ashamed of what he did and because he feels like he will just be portrayed as the "bad guy." He has taken responsibility for his behavior, to a point. Like I said, he doesn't consider it an affair; he doesn't see how I can feel so betrayed and humiliated; he doesn't understand why it hurts so much to know he had a "relationship" with this person for 10+ years; he doesn't understand why I don't believe that there weren't more incidents, given the length of time he was "friends" with this person; he doesn't understand why I'm so hurt that he then turned to porn, either during or after this "affair" ended; he doesn't validate my feelings about any of these incidents. He gets angry at me for trying to address them.

We have been together for 27 years; since we were 16. We have been married for 22 years, and have two children (boys). He has always led me to believe that he shared the same values I do: fidelity, loyalty, family, honor, honesty, integrity, respect, cherishing each other. He hadn't been with anybody but me, up until this point. This is a crushing blow to me, to the purity of our sexual union. He has always been vocal, in unison with me, about these subjects and experiences that have happened to others around us, leading me to believe he was truly committed to me and we shared the same goals and objectives. I feel betrayed in many ways. I don't even know who I'm living with, who I've been living with. And, he acts as if I'm overreacting to these "incidents." He says they were "experimentation."

I've been tested for HIV and STDs, and apparently he has been too, secretly, since the "affair" ended. The relationship began approximately 14 years ago and ended 6-7 years ago. I found out at the beginning of this year, after his reaction to another incident didn't quite seem right to me; I became suspicious. And, quite frankly, I had thought he had an affair with a co-worker. So, I was quite surprised to find out what had actually happened.

I appreciate your observation that he is arguing over the terminology to distract from his own wrongdoing; I agree 100%. The story has changed many times. And, I'm not convinced, yet, that I have truly heard the "truth." I do have ways to find out more; I'm just waiting for the proper timing.

It is his belief and feeling that "we can't change the past, we can only control the future. . . let's move past this and be happy." He expects, and requested, forgiveness now without addressing the issues or resolving the problem.

Thanks for the suggestion on how I can respond to his arguement over semantics. I will keep that in mind. I'm taking one day at a time, and all the feedback I can get will help tremendously.