grove,

I have been following your thread and find it interesting. ML, Mulan and Lemonman are 1000% on the money here.



Crumbs, as ML says, will NOT make your M whole. And her willingness to talk will DECREASE, if anything. She will probably "forget" things that you will want to know.

I have been dealing with, at worst, a WH (I don't know for absolutely certain) and at best, a lying H, for 2 years now. It will eat you alive, the crumbs will not sustain you.

And LISTEN to these people, they know what they are talking about. This advice is the best you will get, outside of the Harleys' themselves.

Even if this A was "over", what will stop there from being another one, if you do not get to the real problems. Conflict Avoiding never solved a conflict.

Good Luck, you're gonna' need luck and a whole lot more,

jls

PS My eye was caught by your title about "full disclosure" at first - No, I don't believe that an M can be saved without it. Without full disclosure, the WS is not showing a REAL attempt to work on the M, and eventually (if not sooner), it will take two.

grove,

perhaps I'm naive, but I don't see your situation quite as negative as the others:

1. your ww/fww is reaching out to you and inviting you to do things with her
2. she has agreed to absolutely NC with the OM
3. She has also expressed regret for not giving full transparency for last Thursday

These three things would be a HUGE step for my WS!!!

Sure, she is not out of the fog yet, but ask others here... I get the impression that the fog doesn't dissapate until well into recovery. I interpret your WW as making progress.

What about you? Why the heck have you gone off your ADs? I have personally found an AD therapy that works great for me --- medication + vigorous exercise in the fresh air. The first part is non-addictive and I will stop it first when my M is recovered. The exercise part is addictive and I don't plan to give that up at all! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Try to let go and work harder than ever on your own personal recovery until the end of July. Give her time, show her your best side: that is what you've agreed to. That is what you must adhere to. One of you must be strong and show integrity...

I send you warm, supportive hugs grove! Hang in there, I think we are each in there for a long haul.

Grove my boy, the first step to solving any problem is to first accurately articulate what that problem is. Defining *your* problem is very simple. You have a wife that is cheating; not in the past tense but in the present tense!

Worse yet, she appears to be belligerent, mean and vindictive in the process. She has rightly and quickly determined that you are a young man and husband who would rather believe her lies then accept the upheaval that facing the facts will mean.

Please notice that I used the word “facts” rather then the word “truth.” That’s because the truth in this matter is something that has yet to be determined. The particular truth I am referring to however, is weather this is a marriage should be saved. Of this, you may be assured however, finding that truth is going to require that you be a whole lot more honest with yourself and show a whole lot more courage then you have to date.

On the other hand, the facts of the situation are indisputable. Your wife is a cheat and seemingly mean spirited cheat to boot. She is lying and will continue to lie as long as you allow her lies to be creditable currency in your decision making process.

Fact: (According to what you wrote here), she told you that she didn’t expect the OM to be there and that if he should show up, then she would leave.

Fact: She demands trust and privacy but provides nothing of value to assure she is deserving of either.

Fact: She took off her cloths, lay down in his bed and had sex with another man, yet, she lies and tells you that she didn’t.

Fact: She belittles and profanes you to her friends and family.

Fact: She has not divorced you yet for some selfish motive or reason that you are not aware of.

Fact: She enjoys using you as her escort and baby sitter to and for various family or social events where it is to her benefit to have a husband present.

Fact: She profanes the truth, demanding that you accept responsibility for her acts; you catch her cheating and instead of accepting ownership of her acts, she attacks you for your bad manners in publicly admonishing her for her putridity.

Grove, there’s more but what’s the sense in rehashing? You get the idea. And when I suggested the 180 to you, I did not make that suggestion so that you might use it as a tool for further avoidance. I suggested it to you as way to begin asserting your independence and become used to functioning in the same reality as the rest of the world…not in the morass of vile fiction being put to you by a WW.

Son, folks around here are being real nice and patient with you…but not me! I’m telling you strait out that it’s time to stand up and face this matter with some strength of character and a willingness to demand an honest and loving marriage for yourself. Stop the equivocating [censored]. You know damn well she’s dumping on you like you’re trash so the question is, what do you intend to do about it? If you want to fight it then I’ll be here helping all I can. If not I won’t bother you again. Others around here will be a lot nicer about it I’m sure but not me! Watching you sell yourself out is just too painful for me.
Coach

Coach (and everyone else). I'm listening, I'm trying to decide whether this marriage can or should be saved. In the process I plan to start asserting myself towards independence and healing.

I definitely need help!

I finally spoke to the OM's significant other. It was interesting. She claims my wife was the one holding onto the relationship. Of course my wife denies this. Both have claimed NC with each other until the other night. Who knows if they are being honest?

The girlfriend made excuses for her boyfriend and came up with some stupid things to lay blame on my wife. I on the other hand see this as two idiots, both willing to hurt the people they claim to love.

If my wife is still having the affair, I'd be shocked, but I am preparing myself for it.

I have been the "cheating wife". Looking at what happened I feel like it is HER responsiblity to put forth the bigger effort in saving your marriage not GIVING up on it. I don't feel you acted bad or with a bad temper. Besides how are you suppose to feel and act after being betrayed by your wife? I think your actions are normal you shouldn't feel bad at all for how you have acted. Im sorry that you have been through something so painful. I can not forgive my self ever for being the "cheater" in my relationship. Hang in there.

***She is lying and will continue to lie as long as you allow her lies to be creditable currency in your decision making process.***

Bingo.

Grove, I understand that you want to believe your wife when she says the affair is over -- I really do -- but everything she is saying and doing just screams otherwise.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

You have got to learn not to let her anger frighten you and hold you hostage. She is a bully and has successfully bullied you into backing off about her cheating. She will continue to do this as long as you continue to fear her. She's counting on it.
Mulan

Ok, so what do I do? She's going to a "scrapbooking party" tonight, but she's dressed as if she's going out for dinner. I've been told to stop checking up on her, and truthfully I'm tired of doing that. Should I check up on her again?

From what she's told me, we're getting a divorce. So I don't really see any reason to be doing anything. I've decided to work on the 180 and healing my own wounds. She's not going to discuss the details of her affair or what she did last week. If this is unacceptable, than I guess I can be pro-active and file for divorce.

I'm going to go back and review the 180, but it might be a little late to do much for my marriage. I'm keeping my options open, but I need help figuring out what to do next.


I think I'll go back and read some of the previous post and try and put together a game plan.

Yes, I would check up on her. And I would suggest staying in regular contact with her boyfriend's girlfriend. You had her on the ropes the other night, maybe you can get her back there.

I thought she had agreed to put off divorcing you if you would shut the hell up and stop bothering her with annoying questions about her affair?

How do you feel about getting a Divorce? I think she is being unsensitive to you needs as a husband copeing with a wife that has cheated. If she refuses to be totaly open to you I feel she is not being honest. She shouldn't feel that you can't follow her or check up on her unless she has something to hide.

Melody,

After Thursday night I couldn't shut up. I wanted to know how she could justify what she did, and what it meant? All she cared about was that I checked up on her again and that I embarrassed her.

What's the point of checking up now? I've got a three year old at home, the idea of dragging her out to spy on her mother is not very appealing.

As I write this, it seems obvious that I really don't have a marriage anymore and need to face this fact and get on with my life.

I know you all have been through this before, is it really worth it? Will she actually come out of the fog? I just don't see it happening.

Grove,
*My wife took our daughter to a class. She called on the phone and asked me to go to a graduation party with her and her family. I went, it went ok, I basically took care of my daughter while she talked to people.*

You went with her to a party and took care of the baby for her while she went off to enjoy herself socializing. Hummmm…what’s wrong with this picture do you think? She lies to your face, and after being caught in her lie, she comes home and berates you for questioning her integrity and causing her public embarrassment?! LOL

And the next day she decides to give you temporary forgiveness or something, in that she needs a baby sitter for those moments, when after showing off your DD to her friends for a few moments, she is free to chat and gossip with those same friends and not have to worry about watching your DD?…She assigns you the task of nanny! Oh, and lets not forget all the embarrassing question about where you might or might not be, that she never had to answer! Very convenient for her wouldn’t you agree?

So Grove, what is that you think you might have done differently…to better assert yourself and serve notice to your WW that things need to change? How about you having responded:

“Wife, I’m sorry but I don’t think that as the situation is at the moment I care to be with you right now.” “While I still love you and want us to be married and remain a family, I can’t continue to make believe to the world that there’s nothing wrong in a marriage where my partner is having sex with another man and is totally disrespectful of my feelings to the point where she is not only showing no remorse, but is continuing to lie and cheat as you were doing last night.”

*On the way home she asked me to go to a cookout that her brother's friend was having, I said I wasn't sure, but if she wanted me to go, I would.*

Terrific! More of the same! And off you went, validating her lies and deceptions and literally giving her a carte blanche to continue cheating as she has been.

*We talked a little more, we agreed that we would not pursue a divorce or even talk about it until after July. Mainly for our daughter's sake, and our's too. We agreed that I would not bring up the affair during this time and that she would have absolutely NC with the OM, or any other inappropriate contacts. She said she would never cheat on me again.*

Oh you mean she agreed to have no contact…like she did before? And did you even think to ask her why you should believe her? And of course if you agreed (for your daughter’s sake1 BS) to have no conversation about her cheating (sorry words like affair are too sanitary for my taste)?

So now she doesn’t have to bother herself about making any explanations to you at all. No answers to any questions, no issues being raised about the whys and where fores of the situation. No sir, for her life goes on…no sweat, no hassle and no resolution to this situation. In fact I would bet she has it all planned! By July she expects that you will simmer down and be even more manageable and she will just lay off anything to potentially explosive for the summer…while…are you getting this? Grove…? While she continues to subtly spin the sitch until it is perceived by you to be a matter of *you* being on your best behavior so that *you* can save the marriage!


*She still doesn't believe she did anything wrong Thursday night, and now wishes she would have just told me that the OM might be there, she wouldn't leave if he was and that if they have contact it would be brief.*

Of course she doesn’t believe she did anything wrong! After all, she is entitled to do anything she pleases right? At least she seems to believe so. And is this not too funny? She wishes now that she didn’t make any promises to leave if the OM appeared! LOL So that way what? It wouldn’t all be a lie and it would have been perfectly all right to have a nice evening with her boyfriend?

So Grove, here’s how a mean, low down SOB like me handled a similar sitch. This is essentially the conversation that took place at the time!

Coach to ex WW at the time; “Wife, so you had an evening with boy toy after promising me never to see or speak to him again? Is this correct? And you don’t see this as any big thing right?”

WW to me, “I really don’t see what the big deal is…after all we were in a public place with hundreds of people around us…”

Coach back to ex WW, “so that makes it all right as far as you’re concerned? Because if so, we have an even bigger problem then before this whole thing blew up!”

Ex WW right back at me, “what is wrong with you!? Why are you making such a big deal about something so minor, after all, it was only an evening of conversation and besides it provided me with the closure I needed!” “Why are you acting like such a pr#ck!?” (WW’s & WHs all seem to be big on closure by the way! LOL And,yes, I was acting like a total pr#ck!) LMAO

Coach back to WW, “fine darling I’m glad you got your closure so when is your doctor’s appointment?”

Ex WW back at me, “what doctor’s appointment?”

Coach back at Ex WW, “the one you need to have so that you can be re-tested for STDs! Because you aren’t even getting into the same bed as me until I see a report assuring me that you are clean and healthy; and darling wife, you know how grouchy I get when I’m denied my SF so please do it tomorrow?!”

Ex WW, crying and swearing at me, slamming doors and telling me “it is over…that I can’t live with this disrespect!”

Coach back at here, “to f#cken bad, let me know where to send your stuff!”

And what I’m particularly proud of is that never once did I raise my voice! LOL And of course she never left…never even thought about it! AND, she did go to the doctor!

Now granted, I was further along with my mess then you are at this point but still…can you imagine…having to listen and live with that kind of foggy crap for the rest of your life?....Or can you?

Coach

grove, I wouldn't drag the child out to spy on her, but why can't you drop in and say "hey?" What would be the problem with that?

However, I would not just roll over if she told me to shut the hell up and that I was the bad guy for "checking up" on her. Apparently your reasons for checking up on her were fully justified as you caught her with her honey.

I would let her know that you do not agree to shut up and that your marriage cannot recover until there is honesty and openess - you need an explanation about STD's for example.

I would also explain that until she does things to restore trust, that you will check up on her to protect your interests and those of your daughter. You would be insane to afford trust to an untrustworthy person. She is not entitled to trust.<----------tell her this.

I think that if you persist in letting her know your boundaries and not letting her bully you into silence, she may come around. And she may not. But I do know this, grove, women do not respect men they can push around and she seems to be able to push you around quite easily. I would change that if you intend on having any hope of saving your marriage.

Ok, here's where we are at. I have told my wife that Thursday night was unacceptable. It showed a complete lack of respect to our marriage and me personally. I have told her that I can not except this kind of behavior in my life. I have admitted That I am still in love with her, but that I do not believe that we are married right now in any sense other than a piece of paper.

We I ask how she can justify her behavior or that no reasonable person would agree that her behavior is or was acceptable, she usually throws some kind of tantrum and tells me to stop harrassing her, or leave her alone. I'm not sitting around here getting my behind beat with no fight, it's just that she's still in the fog and it's driving me crazy.

She says she is miserable and doesn't enjoy being around me. She believes she is in a no win situation. I have told her that I was sorry that I went to the bar, but that I wasn't sorry for verifying whether she was being honest with me. Of course she talked about being treated like a prisoner and a child, and I told her that she seems to behave like a child who can't behave responsibly. Yep, she got pissed. She believes we are simply existing together until the house is sold.

As for going with her to "babysit" my daughter. I guess I should or would like to clarify my thinking about going to the family functions when invited. I'd rather do that than stay at home and not spend the day with my daughter. This may be the last summer my daughter will have with both of her parents, I'd like to make it a happy memory for her. Both events were family events that my daughter should have went to, so I'm not sorry I went to those. Hanging out with my daughter is my only true source of happiness right now.

So how about you baby sitting your daughter while she goes to her scrap booking party? You feel this is appropriate? She just gets to go on with her life with you as baby sitter? G-D man, at the very least, tell her to hire a baby sitter so you can go out with some of your friends or to a movie alone! What are you a paid servant?

Grove, I’m going to tell you something that I believe with all my heart. Your WW is a willful spoiled child and I’ll bet anything that a divorce is the last thing she wants. In fact I would bet that the reality of a divorce is terrifying to her.

Use you head young man! If she is enjoying such unanimous and complete family support, why is she even hesitating to dump you? Could it be that she doesn’t have the support that she says she has or that maybe she can’t face the potential fall out of a split? Maybe this BS she’s feeding you is about nothing more then control; damage control.

Another thing; you think that you called the OM’s girlfriend and so now you’ve exposed the cheating? Wrong! Exposure means total and complete on the table so every one knows, light of day, in your face truth kind of exposure! No tippy toeing around! So how about the people where the two of them work? How about having a heart to heart with her mother? How about not participating in family events…and when given the opportunity to explain why…tell who ever will listen why!

Grove you equivocate with “I wanted the chance to spend time with my daughter?” as the reason for your acquiescence to her request? What I’m trying to do here is show you how to save your marriage! Not end it and this is the BS you are throwing out?! You think taking a stand here will cause it to end? NOOOOOOOOO! What will end your marriage is you not taking a proactive vigorous approach and independent action.

Your WW, going out alone to any kind of party…scrapping, Tupperware, lingerie, book clubs, dinner and rinks with the girls…anything…is at this point in time out of the question! Don’t you get it? She is having sex with another man and you are sending her out with your blessing while you stay home and watch the baby?! Will you please wake up!?
Coach.

grove, it sounds like you are getting some good advice. My WW was into the "scrapbooking scene" during her "relationship". It was very important to her to make her scrapbooks to save the family memories at that time but she doesn't feel the need after she got caught. You might want to check that out very closely.

I have never asked you this but wanted to know. As I understand your situation, you could live with the fact that she had an EA but probably could not live with a PA. She will not discuss the situation but is insistent that there has been no sex. However, she is unwilling to do anything to prove it. If that is not the situation then let me know where it is not accurate.

Have you given her the option to take a polygraph to prove that there has been no sex. I know that women equate the word polygraph with the same sensation as being skinned alive but it is accurate and will answer your questions. They only take about fifteen to thirty minutes depending on the amount of questions that you want answered and cost about $300. That is no small amount of money but well worth peace of mind.

Why don't you tell her like I told my WW that you would forgive her and not bring up the A ever again if she passes that there has been no sex. You know that there will be no sex if it has not already happened by now. Offer to take one yourself to prove your fidelity to her. Make it to the point that no one could refuse it if they were not guilty.

I think that you will get the same answer that I did. She will give you some lame excuses why she cannot or should not be required to do such a thing. That answered all of my questions and I could move on to the next level. I think you need to be able to move to the next level and not be stuck wondering if she did or didn't and whether you are making the right move. I think that you will get your answer very quickly.

These are just may thoughts to get you off of the square one that you are stuck on. Every situation is different and requires a different approach but this answered all of my questions very quickly and definitely. Let me know your thoughts.

My wife was willing to take a polygraph, because of her willingness I backed off on it. I wish I hadn't, I think she knew I didn't like the idea. Our counselor at the time said that he felt it would harm the rebuilding process. So we didn't follow through with it. Besides, it's been 4 months since d-day and as of right now, we are working more on a friendly divorce than saving the marriage. Truthfully, I'm not positive I would have left my wife if she had admitted to the PA, it's a very good posibility. It depends on how she acted after disclosure. It has to be better than how she's behaved so far. I think part of her problem is that the lies are eating her up inside.

I'm holding out some hope that we can work this out, but not much. She refuses to change her lifestyle and is more worried about her loss of privacy than anything else.

I'm just trying to do a 180 and let her sort her life out. I'm making plans, I treat her with respect, and I’ve shown a willingness to participate in family functions if invited. My wife asked if we were still going away for a weekend in Chicago in July. She thought it would be a good idea for the two of us to get away together.

We also have a planned weekend in August to take our daughter to Indianapolis to go to the Children's Museum and to Disney World in October. She beleives we should keep this plans.

I still love this woman, as much as I wish I didn't I do. I doubt I will be able to stay married to her, but it doesn't change how deeply I feel for her.

grove, I am worried that you are completely losing focus. You have repeatedly stated that you need disclosure or you cannot stay married to your wife. This is your central issue to recovery. Do not lose sight of this. From your posts, you say that if you can just get confirmation that your wife has not had sex outside the marriage then you can refocus and throw yourself completely into saving the marriage. She is not going to give you the answers so you have to work on getting them.

I hate to tell you this but my WW agreed to the polygraph test but starting making excuses when I started to finalize the date and time. At this point, you have no idea that she was going to go through with it. I have heard of spouses getting in the car to go and breaking down and admitting everything moments before walking in the office to take the polygraph.

I think you are fooling yourself by thinking that you can forget the whole thing and just wander aimlessly through your marriage wondering if she cheated on you, wondering if she is still cheating on you, wondering if she is just waiting for the OM to leave his mate or to ask her to leave you or wondering if this was her first outside relationship. From what you have posted, I really do not think that you can. I am worried that you are working on a plan that cannot succeed.

I strongly suggest that you recognize what YOU need to put your life back together and go and get it. Do not accept anything less because you deserve nothing less.

To be honest, I'm kind of working on the 180 plan (see below)and a decent and friendly divorce. I believe there is very little hope to rebuild my marriage, I have lost almost all faith in my wife. I have no expectations of her, as we are simply existing in the same home together. If she comes to me and says that she would like to stay in the marriage, than I will tell her what the means to me and what it will take. This will include full disclosure of her affair, and a real committment to NC, which will include my knowing where she is at all times (until trust and honesty is completely restored).

Until then, I am going to see Star Wars by myself Thursday night (she said she wanted to go, I haven't decided if I want her to or not.

I'm going jogging tonight and boating Saturday.

So what does everyone think? Am I moving in the right direction?

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes her feelings stronger).
24. Be patient.
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly

29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes

Grove, I think that you have put in a lot of effort in saving your relationship with your wife. Isn't it odd how life works. You, are the one who was cheated on and still puts for the effort. Me, I am working to save my marriage after cheating. I think it is great that you have a plan. I wish that I knew what to do in my situation. It is hard to decide if you should stay and try or it is time to move on. I have the same feelings as you, just in a different situation. You should do what you think is best for YOU. You deserve to be happy and have someone care for you just as much as you do them.

mourning I think it's great that you are willing to work on your marriage. Just be there for your spouse. Write the NC letter, and offer to explain what happened and when it happened. By showing your spouse that you are willing to do whatever it takes to fix your marriage, you probably have a real chance at keeping your marriage together. ("Like I know what I'm doing" LOL).

I needed that from my wife, but she was never willing to do that. She just became distant and waited on a sign or something.

I wish you the best and I hope your able to make it work!