Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our guidance forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
K
Member
OP Offline
Member
K
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
I posted a personalized version of this to Danigirl, then read another post from someone who's WS is apparently still "playing her".

Since my own husband isn't truly "there" yet (the OW in my case is made of electrons on a computer screen and he still visits her/them regularly), and I'm living in my 180 world, I don't know from experience that this ever happens in real life - Mimi says it does, and a few others...

But I know what I'm looking for!

What true repentence from the wayward, mentally, emotionally and physically adulterous life looks like to a betrayed spouse:

Quote
You will get word from an intermediary, or the postman that there is a support check for your children waiting for you to pick up that you didn't have to legally wrangle out of him/her.

You will hear of him holding down a job and attending 12 step meetings for his sexual, alcohol and drug addictions (and any other addictions). BUT IT WON'T BE FROM HIM/HER. (S)He's too busy focusing on doing the work of recovery rather than "saying all the right things" to convince you (s)he's working recovery.

Debts that have forced you to live an extremely impoverished life will start to get paid off directly by the man/woman responsible for running them up catering to be with the OW/OM.

You will find out the OW/OM left town never to be seen again. You'll be able to tell by the shockingly clear air when you're around a formerly wayward spouse rather than any direct messages attempting to convince you there's no contact.

Resources you have long been without will be provided by someone working hard to make amends, rather than convince you that they're truly sorry for what they've done.

This will happen over a period of months and years before your formerly wayward spouse approaches you to ask for your trust. By then it will have been already earned by the walk, not the talk.

He/she will not ask or expect to move home (back into your heart) any time soon. Your happiness, peace and safety are the ultimate goals at this point for the truly formerly wayward spouse, even if it's with another relationship post divorce.

As you can tell by my intro - I don't talk much about my situation with infidelity - but I'm close to the end of my rope tonight. It's a good thing he's out camping with our son.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
K
Member
OP Offline
Member
K
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
Forgot one VERY important thing -

They don't ask you to make the appointments with individual counselors or marriage counselors - they crave wellness and recovery and balance to the point that they will take any action, any needful thing to get it done without asking you to do it for them.

They lay absolutely ZERO blame at your feet for what they did to you or to themselves or to that living breathing relationship they swore before God to protect - their marriage.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 888
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 888
Hi KaylaAndy,

I'm sorry you're in so much pain again (still).

Remember that the recovery and healing you have attained so far is yours to take with you should it become time to go. You'll know when you've done everything you can do, and when it's time to let him go.

It's still sad when it turns out that way. But you will know when it's time because there will be nothing more that you can do in the situation, either for yourself or for him.

Take care <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 66
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 66
KaylaAndy,
I am so sorry you are hurting.
Your list is so clear. Thank you for sharing it. All I could think of was" when I look into his eyes, I'll see it there". I'm looking for the look of love and respect. I know it is too abstract but I've seen it before.
I hope you soon start seeing tiny little signs from H that his life is changing.
T.

Added: chocolate is the way to go for comfort

Last edited by stidnumh; 06/04/05 08:36 AM.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,717
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,717
Quote
Since my own husband isn't truly "there" yet...

Is there a chance that kasey will never reach "there"? I have read some pretty bizarre and even horrifying posts of kasey's which would indicate that his wellness depends on much more than the conquering of a porn addiction.

Sometimes I wonder if his time spent at the computer is well spent compared to other things he could be doing to satisfy his addiction.

I'm not saying that it is healthy for your M by any means.

Each time he views porn he is inviting the "OW" into your home. They carry on their A right under your nose. The power to remove the OW from the home is in your hands. Remove the internet from the home. He will probably battle you or find some other avenue. Is it a battle that you are willing to undertake?

Assuming that he will never get "there", what do YOU need to do to reach the place that you want to be at this time in your life?


ba109
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
K
Member
OP Offline
Member
K
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
Don't get me wrong - there are signs of change - he's working in an environment where he's not in front of a computer all the time - and he's around other people.

But he's slipped back to the electron-babes more frequently in the last two months than he has in the last two years combined.

The phrase "the more things change, the more they stay the same" hits a little too close to home.

I want to believe in the hard work he's doing to overcome the challenges that kept him isolated. I crave to admire and acknowledge all of that. But how to I weigh all the slippage in the balance? And how to I weigh in the balance he's still trying to get me to be his recovery secretary, making all the arrangements for his therapy sessions, etc.

This isn't working for me. I know what I need to see - the WHOLE package, and I'm not seeing it!


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,607
T
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,607
KA:

So what I got from your Quote, is that you'll be "seeing" ACTIONS ....and NOT getting talk.

When the Actions Replace the "words", your probably on the right track.

Especially when they come Unsoliceted from You!


Fooling people is serious business, but when you fool yourself it Becomes Fatal.

Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,073
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,073
Quote
But he's slipped back to the electron-babes more frequently in the last two months than he has in the last two years combined.


What if the abuse was alcohol?

What if: "he has gotten much better. He drinks way less than he did. He only drinks/gets drunk on the weekends now."

Is this ok? no, it's not. But this is what he does. This has gone on for years. You are nearing the end of your rope. What are you going to do?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail. ~ Kinky Friedman
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,073
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Dec 1969
Posts: 3,073
Many of your "signs" of recovery seemed to revolve around financial issues.

One of the primary indicators to me is attitude. As long as there is any resistance, anger, defensiveness...these are all red flags.

If he is sincere in his desire to change, I am wondering why there is not a heavy duty filter on your internet.

Susan


Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail. ~ Kinky Friedman
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
K
Member
OP Offline
Member
K
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
Susan - when I wrote this, it was with DanigirlinVA in mind - her husband has pulled money out of her account, stolen checks and forged her signature, etc.

I also wrote it because he had slipped last week on his sobriety, and we have an agreed upon boundary that he won't try to be intimate with me for 48 hours to give his mind time to clear the "objectifying" energy from his head/heart. I refuse to be used. Last week after the slip, he wasn't protecting that boundary and I had to restate it - I hate restating boundaries because I feel so disrespected and unloved. I feel used and just like some "THING" that feeds his need for a fix.

So he gets clean for two days. We have some fun yesterday a.m. where I really started to let go and feel - but there wasn't time for me to get completely satisfied. I took care of him, and hoped that we could have a "date" tonight. He called me at work, just before he left with our son to go to this father-son's campout and tells me he slipped again.

So when does my sexual feelings get nurtured and protected with him? NEVER NEVER NEVER!! I felt such anger at him last night. I've had to fight sexual anorexia for years. And I'm so repulsed by his selfishness right now. He is not attractive to me at all - my #1 need (not necessarily appearance attractive but action/confidence/healthy attractive).

The weight of the financial issue weighs heavily on me. My husband has only recently made any effort to build his practice through a different location at some sort of clinic or salon or gym setting, instead of the clinic we built in our home (close access to the internet - I know - big mistake!). The only other time he's made an effort is when the opportunity was so obvious, he would have had to ignore a freight train in his path to miss it - and that's when he got to work on a team of world-class athletes for several months leading up to a significant competition. Several of them medaled - most got personal bests.

When we lost our business back in 1994, and collection agents were harrassing me, and the bank emptied our checking account when they decided the payment plan I was following wasn't good enough - even though it was their payment plan... husband's response was to tell me to tell the bill collectors to go to h*ll. One went so far as to break into my house, steal my resume and mock me over the phone (and on my answering machine) with my "qualifications" and who I thought I was compared to who I really was (in his eyes) - oh yeah - illegal as all get-out - and he went to prison eventually for 5 years... but that's another story. Husband's indifference to our financial situation galled me no end. He throws stuff in my face about how I priced our services so low that there was little or no profit - but then he'd do such a lousy job at production, we'd have to do it again, and what little margin I put into it, was long long gone... He was his own worst enemy during that time. But I got the blame - and he still pulls that out as if it's some sort of trump card...

Ultimately we separated for several months a couple years after the business died. He up and quit the job he was holding down, so the little $10/hour job I was holding down had to cover $2500 worth of monthly bills... And he didn't care. He broke promise after promise - to me and to our marriage counselor (and during that time he was clean from his addiction... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> )

I even had a telephone session with Dr. Willard Harley - and he told me there wasn't much that could be done to recover our marriage until husband was willing to take some financial responsibility for us.

When I finally started making enough to cover the household bills, I quit asking him for help - but then I lost my job. And I really really really needed him to step up to the plate and share the burden. He didn't. Instead, we've taken on an additional $58,000 of debt to make up for the temporary shortfalls that occurred frequently as I adjusted to three new sales jobs that I have tried over the past 3 years.

My plan is to get out from under the joint bills, and get the mortgage loan that's in my name alone paid off. Once that is done, if husband still hasn't stepped up to the plate, I'm leaving. Our son will be grown. There will be nothing to tie me to him.

In the mean time, I'm doing things to take care of myself. I'm going to the gym and working out with a trainer. Once I can find a diet that fits my body type and my work/lifestyle, I'll have that going too. I'm reading and studying investing to build up some sort of retirement portfolio. (I work for an investment company now so it fits my plan.) Yes I know I'll end up sharing that with him if I divorce - but who says I plan to divorce him??? I'm just going to live separately. I don't ever expect that at my age, I will meet anyone else who remotely fills my needs. I've found too many single men who are just no better than the one I'm with. And I don't have a problem with being alone - just terribly disappointed in the man I chose.

I've given up on my dreams. With each slip it's more clear to me that I will not be adopting any baby girls from China. I will not extend my sentence. I will not be in the big choir I wanted to join, and almost made it before I lost my job 3 years ago. But as Scarlett O'Hara shook her fist at the heavens and shouted she would never do without again, I will never deal with a harrassing bill collector because of my husband's actions or inactions again (or my own actions).

And if husband decides to step up and really work the walk, and stop expecting me to just stay and stay and stay while he does his little internet stuff, then I can consider staying. But once I no longer have a financial reason tying me to him, I will have much more leverage on the relationship.

I'm biding my time at this point. It makes me cry to recognize all the losses, but the tears will stop eventually.

Last edited by KaylaAndy; 06/04/05 12:10 PM.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
K
Member
OP Offline
Member
K
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
Oh - and the reason for the filter - why bother? He's an addict - and part of his M.O. is to rise to the challenge of hacking through any filter - and he's done it - and he's bi-lingual so there are few filters that can stop him.

He's hacked his way onto paying sites without paying. Damaged our computer several times...

The more I write, the more disgusted I get. I'd better go plant my garden before my plants fry.

Last edited by KaylaAndy; 06/04/05 12:08 PM.

Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 723
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 723
{{{KA}}}}

Feeling for you. My H is a SA too. We have a really great MC who's specialty is SA. She says there is very little hope for recovery without 110% commitment from the addict. And that a group experience is pretty essential also. Not ness. a 12 step, but definitely a same sex group. Have you read Carnes books? Has he? Does he want to get healthy?

Not meaning to be condescending, but with all the slips, the 48 hrs thing seems like a slap on the wrist - and makes you the policeman/mother/crossing guard/"recovery secretary" and from what I've learned, that ain't gonna work.

BTW - we are in a 6 wk period of celibacy right now. Something the IC and group insisted on. Am I resentful? Is it difficult? YES!!!! But I want healthy sex and if that's what the doc ordered, OK. And this celibacy therapy didn't come from me as a punishment but from the MC/IC. It's amazing to watch his struggle but very gratifying to see the commitment.

I do have a program that reports all keystrokes and internet activity. Those reports come directly to me daily. I can look or not. H knows it's on our computers only becasue I told him. Of course where there's a will, theres a way, but I am trying to not make policing him my JOB. He's got IC and group for that. It's his JOB if he wants me in his life.

I totally agree with ba109's comment about him carrying on an A w/OW right under your nose - in your own home. He's excluding you from his sex life and keeping you at arms length. He's choosing his secret life over you. He's choosing an unhealthy compulsive R rather than an intimate consious one with you. I hope you can get strong and separate enough to protect yourself. Here's part of an article that I found helpful in it's clarity. Good luck!


Quote
Addiction and core values from recoverynation.com

First, usually in childhood, a separation begins between the values that they know to be moral and socially just; and the natural feelings they experience as a result of immediate gratification. At this point, we will avoid the specifics of this process, but will focus only on the fact that once it does--be that through childhood trauma, emotional immaturity, extreme stressors, parental abuse/neglect, etc.--a "secret identity" has already begun to develop. From that moment on, your partner has experienced life in a way that you could not rationally comprehend.

On the one hand, they had the life that they wanted to experience--the life that they felt like they "should" experience--filled with morality and values; it is this life that they attempt to share with others in early courtship, at work, at church, among their family. It is the person that they want to be known as. Intellectually, they know that this life should be fulfilling to them, but for some reason it is not. There is something missing. What is missing is what is on the other hand: the secret life that they have developed through fantasy and escape.

In the early years, this dichotomy can be hidden rather easily, as the secret life is able to be kept reasonably under control. But in an unhealthy person, when emotions square off against values, emotions win every time. Even when decisions are made to act according to their values, when that secret life is already intact, the pressure from not acting to satisfy those emotional needs creates a pressure that will eventually be fulfilled. Compared with values, emotional stability is the more immediate, basic human need...and in times of crisis, these are what must be resolved first...every time.

Over the course of several years in an addict's life, a tragic phenomenon occurs. The values that the person once believed in become secondary to their ability to achieve emotional balance. What happens is that their "secret life" becomes more important to them than the real life that they had set out to live. It is their secret life that allows them to experience immediate relief. It is their secret life that allows them to experience freedom, fantasy, accomplishment. It is their secret life that allows them to live without pressure and boundaries. Tragically, as this 'secret life' takes on an increasingly functional role, it begins to fuse with their identity. They no longer see themselves as a value-based person, but rather, a phony. A farce. A failure. And the longer this destructive process continues, the more their identity becomes ingrained. Eventually, a point is reached where they realize that they can live without the values--but cannot without the addiction


me:BS
first d-day 7/28/04
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 35,996
[color:"red"] But in an unhealthy person, when emotions square off against values, emotions win every time. [/color]

I thought this was so important that it should be isolated for emphasis!

Really good info.

Thanks Lilybelle!

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 11,539
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 11,539
Lillybelle, can you share where this full article is? I felt like I was reading a description of my H. Very insightful article but would like to see the text in full. Thanks.


Faith

me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 723
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 723
It's from one of the workshops at RecoveryNation; Your Site for Mastering Sex & Love Addictions . They have 2 sets of workshops (articles & online exercises) 1 for Sex Addicts and 1 for partners. This particualr one came out of the workshop for partners Recovery Nation - Partner's workshop #6 - The Values Inventory

Hope that doesn't make the Harleys mad that I shared that here. It's free and extremely helpful stuff for people (H and I anyway) dealing with addiction issues. I'm not sure, but I think they offer coaching as well, which could be a conflict here, but I sincerely hope not. It's some of the best writing on addiction I've come across. Hope that helps.


me:BS
first d-day 7/28/04

Moderated by  Fordude 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 1,116 guests, and 67 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Mike69, petercgeelan, Zorya, Reyna98, Nofoguy
71,829 Registered Users
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2019, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5