OK, Mortarman, at the risk of swatting a hornet's nest and upsetting the powers that be, I feel I must specifically address your post.

I am EXTREMELY questionable of how you could even say something like " Do not leave that house, unles you feel that this violence will continue. If you feel unsafe, you MUST leave. Other than that...dont"... This situation is so far removed from normal that Caren has no "clue" what is right or wrong anymore, or if there could be further violence. Do you really think that people in abusive relationships have the wherewithall (sp?) to gauge if there will be further abuse. They will rationalize anything in their mind to do what "they want to do". Comeon man. She and him are both guilty of abuse here and I think any ADVICE sanctioning staying in the house after today's events is do dead wrong I am friggin boiling to tell you the truth. "Letting God handle it" is NOT the answer that Caren needs here and today. Your faith can be seen as commenadble by others, but I really think that kind of advice can be very harmful to others in these kind of situations.

How can you mention "recovery" and " Plan A" with a straight face with regards to Caren and her situation....HELLO !!!!!! She has never been in recovery. Please....PLease tell me where Plan A has any role in this situation.

I know that you are a very well respected member of this web site and few if anyone here have the guts to call you out, but I am doing it. I think you are a well meaning spiritual man, but you are DEAD WRONG here my friend. I don't care if I get the wrath of the MB elite in disagreeing with you here, but I can not in good conscioussness sit here and let this go unanswered. I just can't. Perhaps I misinterpreted your post, but right now, I am, left with awe struck with what you wrote.

LM

Caren..you're remorseful because you hit him first? He was calling you the "b" word (that name sets my blood to boiling) and that's abuse in of itself. You provoked him? He couldn't come up with a reasonable excuse for the receipt and assulted you with his words, and YOU provoked him! He told you to get out of his bed? What? (that was a clear sign that the A was ongoing) You're married so that bed is yours as much as his. The A is your fault because you didn't pay to for repairs to his car. Can you not see how utterly ridiculous that is!

Call you local police department (not 911) and ask for a referral for a place for battered women. They're everwhere and will provide you with assistance is getting your life back in order. Make a police report of him hitting you-yes you too will have to answer for hitting him-but a report needs to be made. Then get a restraining order. You need to protect yourself from this man.

All is not as hopeless as it seems. This situation has beaten you down and you can't see out but it's there. God protect you and your children.

Sorry, I sounded like a hard a** in that last post, I'm trying not to be that person anymore.

When I was looking on the domestic violence site, I found this list.

You may be in a physically abusive relationship if your partner has ever:

[color:"red"] Damaged property when angry (thrown objects, punched walls, kicked doors, etc.).
[/color]
[color:"red"]Pushed, slapped, bitten, kicked or choked you. [/color]
Abandoned you in a dangerous or unfamiliar place.
[color:"red"]Scared you by driving recklessly. [/color]
Used a weapon to threaten or hurt you.
Forced you to leave your home.
Trapped you in your home or kept you from leaving.
Prevented you from calling police or seeking medical attention.
Hurt your children.
Used physical force in sexual situations.

The things in red I HAVE done, and not just once, and not just after D-Day.

-Caren

Caren – the first comment that I have is that though I often disagree with Dr. Lemonman, in this instance I am in complete agreement with him. EXCUSES as to why you “can’t” go somewhere are just that, excuses to avoid having to face a difficult choice. That is a human reaction, but it is NOT going to help your situation.

Your situation is very BASIC, in my humble opinion. EITHER you will remain married and you will both make significant changes, OR you will be permanently separated and/or divorced. There IS NO MIDDLE GROUND. You’ve tried the “middle ground” and it has failed as it would eventually, ” Everything has been going seemingly well.” You have been mistaking “calm” for “fixed.” You’ve been in the eye of the hurricane trying to move along at the same pace of the hurricane, while the winds rage around you. But when the hurricane changed course and you didn’t, you slammed up against the eye-wall and the battering began again.

Now you are screaming for help. Do you REALLY want help or just a place to post your frustrations because others here have also face their own hurricanes and “understand” how hard it is to face them?



YOU have changed everything? Not true. You may be trying to convince yourself that you have, but you have not. You have put on a new dress, combed your hair, fixed some things on the outside, but you have not dealt with the inside.

Caren, MARRIAGE is a two way street. MARRIAGE takes two people, not just one, changing themselves BECAUSE they love their spouse and not making changes simply to “please” someone who is NOT responding with love in return. Understand that I am NOT saying that we should not change ourselves when we become aware of what we have been doing and how it has NOT been based in love for our spouse. That sort of change is good whether you remain married or not. I AM talking about superficial change. The best indication that I have from what you have written that YOUR changes have been superficial has been your angry yelling, throwing, and slapping. As the Bible teaches about “righteous sin,” “be angry, but in your anger do NOT also sin.” You stepped over the line. Your husband sees “more of the same old you” and is not motivated to believe anything is going to get better.

Think about it this way. In the Customer Service arena, you seldom hear about all the good things, but let just ONE bad thing happen and your phone will ring off the hook and “EVERYTHING” will be terrible. The “good things” will be instantly forgotten and written off as of no consequence.


Point ONE: You are married. It is BOTH of your house. Upon divorce, it gets divided…period.

Point TWO: There is NO remorse shown for his behavior, only blaming you (which you are reinforcing by the way you are handling this confrontation).

Point THREE: A plan B separation and preparation for divorce are REQUIRED now. Unless you are content to forever be his “doormat” and “unequal.”



Short of you threatening his life with a weapon where he is reacting self-defense, you pushed him until he “snapped.” There is NO rule where it is “okay” for a woman to hit a man…other than in the make-believe world of Hollywood. It is NOT right for a man to hit a woman under any circumstances other than self-defense in case of imminent danger for his life. HIS self-control is severely lacking. The “proper response” would have been to get up and leave you to your anger.


The short answer to your questions is “NO.” Neither did you love him when you hit him. Striking your spouse is NOT an action of LOVE and is certainly not even a “close cousin” to spanking a child on their bottom when they “willingly do wrong.”

“Since we’ve been back together” indicates the TRUTH of the recovery process taking a long time. It DOES take time to “prove” that changes are real and beneficial, not just surface and manipulative in nature. But that does NOT “free” him from HIS responsibility to make changes either.

Marriage is about BOTH husband and wife making changes and willingly “giving up” “self” as a justification for behavior. We willing give up certain “single person rights” in favor of our spouse, whom we LOVE.


One of the hardest things for former Wayward Spouses to “come to grips with” is that the Betrayed Spouse IS “in control” of recovery. They already “checked out” of the marriage when they engaged in adultery and by ALL laws, moral, civil, and Scriptural, the Betrayed Spouse has the complete RIGHT to a divorce. To rebuild after such a betrayal means CHANGE. It means giving up selfishness as a “justification” for not doing what is in the best interest of the spouse and/or marriage. It means that CONSEQUENCES of the betrayal will have to be dealt with and that FORGIVENESS does not erase the “crime” or the “penalties” that must be endured to get back to a marriage founded on love and self-sacrifice.



That is obvious.



If there is ANY chance of saving your marriage and any chance of both of you making real, substantive, changes, then a Plan B separation is needed. Neither of you seem to be willing to approach marriage as a “partnership.” Given that, both of you need to “live as single people (separated yet still legally married)” for a while and to think about your own Boundaries and Standards, regardless of who you will be interacting with in the future and regardless of whether or not you are (or will continue to be) married.



Doing the “right thing by GOD” is an entirely different matter. If you want to talk about a “Christian marriage,” we can do that. But right now I do NOT see a Christian marriage here, so let’s deal with it on the secular level for now.

Caren,

That is what I was afraid of...that YOU were the one that was being violent.

While I cannot condone his treatment of you (affair and disrespect..along with his silent treatments)...I cannot call him an abusive husband. You slapped him numerous times caren...numerous....and then he slaps you back...and people want to scream "run from the abuser".

Don't get me wrong...I don't like him either. I make that statement due to things that I have read here.

I don't get it. Reverse this...and it was HIM that slapped her numerous times...and then she slaps back. Are you going to say that SHE is the abuser?

The entire dynamic of their relationship is dysfunctional, totally...and she is a big contributor to it.

There are ways to handle things without being violent...and abusive to someone.

Zero tolerance for hitting....no matter what the gender is my belief.

committed

Editing to add...I feel like I could flamed royally by placing some of my opinions on this thread. I just think that focus should be placed on Caren and her need for a personal and individual healing. This is so past being about a "marriage" with these 2 people. It is a war zone.

I agree, I shouldn't have hit him, and I wouldn't call him an abusive husband either, this situation is FUBAR.

I have previously been in counseling for my behavior and my temper, and obviously it didn't help.

I can't keep eating $hit and saying it tastes like ice cream, and that's what I've been dealing with, I see little signs things are improving and them WHAM I'm back to square one again.

I would agree that I am not in recovery, I would agree that my relationship is disfunctional at best, and my husband's continued contact with the OW is just the icing on the cake.

I have been changing, and the changes have not all been superficial, I have been working, cleaning the house, cooking dinner, keeping the laundry done, staying home, giving my husband all the money, I have been keeping my temper in check until today. I'm not proud of what I did, and I'll apologize for it.

I'm not trying to say I'm not messed up, never have claimed that I was completely sane, fighting has been a way of life for me, and I'm trying really hard to change, but I obviously have a long way to go.

I know all the things you're saying are right, I do, I'm not even tempted to defend myself, you're 100% correct in your evaluation of me and my marriage.

And I am trying to approach this in a Christian way.....but today I failed miserably.

There's only so much a person can take.

-Caren

Yes. And that's usually about the time that we begin to realize that we don't have the resources or ability to do it all on our own. That's when we often turn to God. Until then, we continue to try to do things "in our own power" and without the needed simplicity of being "humbly obedient to God's commands regardless of how we might be feeling."

God is there, standing at the door, waiting for and invitation. But He won't come in unbidden.

Brokenness is a requirement before stubborn humans seem to "get the message."

Caren, God is in the business of "forgiveness." NONE of us "does it perfectly every day."

Failing is NOT terminal. Getting up and trying again, in God's forgiveness and in personal repentance, IS what God is looking for in someone who DOES love Him and does trust Him.

So where does your husband stand with relationship to Christ?

Caren,

1st of all.....here's a {{{hug}}}. I can certainly relate to what you posted and to let you know that you s/b scared. He is probably scared you will press charges. It is vital you both separate immediately. Plan B. At this point you do need to get yourself to a safe place.

While you can't see it, you are protecting him by not filing. I know it is hard but the police are trained to arrest anyone they see push someone one much less slap someone. My WS got arrested because 2 sheriff deputies saw him push me (not hard) back into the house (I was throwing his clothes outside because contact with OW was uncovered). I didn't pack his stuff anymore......to much trouble for a WS. LOL!!! The point is that the officer made it quite clear that while I should not make him angry, my evidence of the on going A was certainly an undstandable reason for being very upset. Domestic violence is a frequence and dangerous law enforcement call to make.

In retrospect, during the A I had a lot more reasons to call the cops for domestic violence. Yet the police only arrested him and they charged him for what they saw. The funny part was that the WS was sooo wackoed that he called 911 to get ME arrested. Go figure. He is 9" taller than I and he called 911 to tell them I was out of control (because I was throwing his clothes out). LOL!!!

Ok, go get yourself some help. There are a couple of MBers here who have dealt with women's shelters in their cities and I recommend you check it out in yours. They may be able to get you emergency housing.

take care,
L.

Where to start in this mess? This is so far beyond the realm of the “help” this site is designed to offer, you may as well be starting a thread on defusing the pipe bomb taped to your head and use the advice given

Domestic violence goes both ways. Yes….men kill women at 3 – 4X the rate women kill men here in Canada, but women still kill men. This is not a team sport, and every case is specific to the “victim”

Most people only see the female victims, because men rarely complain and are frequently dismissed by the police, crown prosecutors, social agencies and judges. There was no excuse to slapping you if he could have escaped and called for help (police) and had you charged if there was evidence of the assault (i.e. physical marks, third party witness-your children perhaps and/or an admission). If he had to push you aside to get out and stop the assault I could see that. Of course I only am privy to your version of the events as filtered through your biases.

I’m sure a shelter will help you and tell you how to get and “Emergency Protection Order” or the equivalent. The female staff there with also let you realize that this was “all his fault” as they are prone to do. That name calling (the kind I was told to ignore as a child) is “abuse”; dictionary definition, not legal. They will also counsel you on “battered woman syndrome” and how you are likely suffering from it and your choice to strike him was justified.

You may as well educate yourself for the next time this happens. It will. You may keep a tidy house now, but if you can’t or won’t control your actions when a stressful situation arises, what have you improved other than there is less available clutter to throw when you beat each other.

Leave each other for the sake of your and his safety and especially so your children won’t learn how to interact with their future spouses when they are older. You two should not be allowed to have your children present when together. If you two want to beat each other’s brains out, why create more victims than necessary. If you do end up splitting, please don’t invite more potential victims into your lives……stay single.

Is my revulsion at you and him clear enough?

(((Caren)))

Until you have had enough of his unfaithful heart, his shutting you out, of making you responsible for his irresponsibility... You will have no alternatives but to stay and take it.

Let something sink deep into your soul:

You are a woman of great worth whether you know it or not. The day you wake up to realize it, there will be a multitude of options. He wants a relationship with you... but he's lazy and wants you to take care of the details of extracating himself from the OW - and because of this, even if you did have the financial power to do this, he would find a way to stay with her on some level - because he's too lazy to break it off.

If you were to leave today - to disappear into a shelter that won't give him the time of day, let alone allow him to find out where you are... (Plan B at it's finest), with a Plan B letter that says to the effect "You asked me to leave - and I'm leaving, not because I don't love you, but because I've had enough of the non-recovery of our marriage, doing this reconciliation thing your way", I'm sure he'd move much faster to gain access to you... But women's shelters are very effective at being intermediaries... Believe me - been there, done that... In my area, you only find a phone number to the shelter, and no one gives you an address. They come and get you and take you there and help you get a life.

If you've truly had enough of his affair, his immaturity and the pain in your head, neck and face, then you'll find the numbers and be empowered.

I promise. That neck pain is going to travel and by tomorrow, you will not be able to turn your head - expect it to hurt like h*ll for a couple of weeks.

Been there, done that too. The depression triggered by that pain was even worse.

Caren -

I know how awful you feel. I've been through the whole DV thing. It is true that you should not have hit him, but his actions are driving you to do things you should not do.

If you let this pass without a response from you, prepare to endure more of the same.

Find a women's shelter, go stay with a friend, go somewhere. Let him know that you are not willing to tolerate this anymore. You can get free legal help to get him out of the house, then you can return.

His saying that you should use your school money to fix the car that HE left at the OW's, just shows how crazy he is thinking. Don't put up with it anymore.

I must say that some things are VERY VERY interesting regarding the responses to this thread. I can't say I am all that suprised. Some things just make you go hmmmmmm......I am almost convinced that it is NOT me who is whacked.

LM

P.s. Caren, I hope you have DONE something productive today to remove yourself from this situation....YOU AND YOUR WH cannot cohabitate in any functional semblance, at least not for the moment.

Well, Lemonman, here's another hmmmmm.... for you. I wasn't going to reply Caren's thread, but...

On D-Day, when I learned my beloved had had an A with an odious lesbian crazy, I slapped him as hard as I could, once.

Two months later, he slapped me as I was turfing him out of the house, after he broke the NC had promised. The setup: I turned off his computer as he was typing what I was saying to OW. I told him he could let the floozy know of his eviction after he was out of the house. I even offered to phone OW so he could move directly into her house. He said their R "wasn't ready for that yet." He was typing that as I turned off his computer. And he slapped me -- not very hard -- and called me a "b1tch."

Honestly, I would rather be slapped a hundred times than endure what I endured. And that's the reality. The slap was nothing compared with a pornography addiction and adultery. Which, of course, is the setup for Caren's situation. All the psychological abuse is, I suspect, more damaging than a neck-ache. And this has blinded her to the escalating level of the intolerable.

I don't know Caren's history, and I don't know whether the violence is serious, habitual, or simply an extreme reaction to an extreme situation. But what bothers me on these replies is there seems to be an absolute, categorical reaction to complex situations.

I turfed the bum out because he was, as someone put it, "too lazy" to end the A -- and I have been in Plan B for 18 months, after six months of polite "Plan A" civility and kindness (during minimal contact) while he was living with OW. No contact for 18 months. If I had been tempted to keep him in the house, as Caren has, I can't vouch for what might be happening.

Because the "violence" can be a small adjunct to other kinds of abuse going on -- such as adultery -- the BS can be willing to tolerate physical abuse, again and again.

Reading these posts, I've been made to feel like a "bad" person, rather someone who reacted inappropriately after a great deal of non-physical abuse and provocation. I am not someone with a history of violence -- not at all. Those of you familiar with my posts know my story.

Again, this may not be Caren's situation -- if her neck is sore, that implies a good deal of force. And some of the posts suggests that this isn't an isolated incident.

But could we have a little more nuance and relativity?

While I'm into true confessions: I was raised in an era and ethnicity where parents slapped or spanked when kids were lippy and parental tempers frayed. No one in our home went to a hospital or abuse center, or needed to, or felt "abused." No one has had to go into therapy. I can't claim to be permanently scarred. It didn't even affect my affection for my parents. Until the last thirty years, this was pretty normal -- and still is most parts of the world.

Again, I'm not condoning anything. Just begging for a little more realism and balance.

And please: I'm not trying to dilute what anyone is advising Caren. Maybe she does need to call a hotline and go to a shelter. But, unless she suspects he is going to stalk her with a gun, couldn't one of them just move in with a friend?

My understanding is that shelters are for people who need ongoing protection from violence. Lemonman can correct me if I am wrong.

AMmartin:

I have to be honest here, I am not quite sure where the heck you are going with all of this. I think people are saying "go to a shelter" becaus Caren says she has no where else to go. She is despearte. She does not have any good friends whom she can go to and live with. As for what you were saying, I have to disagree. I may be wrong in my thinking but I was always raised that Men never never hit women, irregardless of the provocation. Maybe I am a sexist pig, who knows. I just have always held men to a higher standard. This is obviously a result of biases of my job in which women are the overwhelming majority of patients that I see abused and affected by domestic violence. Yes, the reverse does happen.

I think you are taking everyones outrage at this "incident" to heart too much. Noone is calling you out for having slapped your WH. Your issues and incidents are completely separate from this (whether right or wrong). We can only say what we say based on what we here. I believe the real message is that Caren should just remove herslef from a situation that is way out of hand. This is as "real as it gets". This "incident" is just a manifesttaion of severe underlying abnormalities of their relationship and are a harbinger of things to come.

I read your post and instantly felt sad, and I am not even sure why. I didn't even quite get the full gist of what you were saying (admittedly, I am a little slower than most here), but your post almost spoke to me as if you somehow belived that some of this dysfunction is "business as usual" in relationships and "what is the big deal", it was only a slap. I hope I am wrong

edited to add: I type very fast and don't check for spelling mistakes. I am not as iliterit ( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) as you all may think.

Agreed.


Yes. I think you are.

What I was trying to say, in a sort of muddled way, I guess, is that people on this board are often facing extreme situations. It isn't "business as usual," but I guess I'm reacting to the political correctness thing. People, even non-violent vegetarians, such as myself, can react violently with enough triggers. This is reality. And it's usually a sign that it's time to get out.

The "political correctness" thing is to react to the violence as an isolated phenomenon, and express horror and blame. A slap isn't necessarily the end of the world. I guess I'm saying let's look at the context. And yes, I agree that Caren needs to get out.

Is this clearer? Or still muddled?

And, lemonman, maybe what you're hearing is that I feel judged by a lot of these posts -- which is, of course, my own problem. I wouldn't feel "judged" if I weren't judging myself, playing things back over in my head, wishing things had been different but knowing they couldn't have been.

I think the reactions that are causing me to feel this way are driving a lot of issues under the carpet for a lot of posters. And that's what concerns me.

But this is starting to be a threadjack about a separate issue. I'll delete my original post if it's a distraction.

AMmartin, I think I got it this time. I figured I was "reading" it wrong. I agree with the spirit of what you are saying. It should all be looked at in the "context", and a slap is not the end of the world, but THIS situation is WAY MORE THAN THAT and you also agreed with that.

My main outrage at replies to this post was how someone could actually believe that this message board or the plans it purports could have anything to do with Caren's situation. Plan A or whatever are IRRELEVANT HERE, and the situation is WAY beyond what this MB was intended for. I get the sinking suscpicion that Caren uses this board for "support" for what she is going through and not for what she really NEEDS....HELP....for which this board can not help her with.

As an aside, while a slap is not the "end of the world", it is JUST MY OPINION (and you are all entitled to disagree) that ANY MAN who ever hits another woman IRREGARDLESS of provocation should have his Nut$ lopped off. I know that this may be irrational thinking and that the reverse should be equally true, but just as many BS here get all triggered up about the OW at times, I am the same when it comes to domestic violence. That is my trigger. I am admitting my obvious biases here. I am guilty of my own biases clouding my opinion and admittedly CANNOT be objective here about this. There have been times in my professional career that it has taken every ounce of power in me to NOT want to knock the fu%$ out of a man who has beaten their wife. I have always been able to control this rage, but I also fully realize that if I did this, I would be no better than an abuser himself.

This is just my spin on it all. I may be wrong, who knows or who cares I guess. We are entitled to think what we want to think.

Cheers

LM

You may well be right. That's why I stopped posting to Dani on her main thread.



Well, maybe. But believe it or not, you may not stop loving your husband because of a slap. As I said, I would rather have endured a hundred slaps than the non-physical abuse, which was much much more painful. I think that's where Caren is. The violence is nothing compared to the other -- and that allows the violence to escalate. Neither should be tolerated. You're right.



Well, maybe this is where I have issues. A one-time slap in a highly unusual moment of surprise and rage -- not a slug that knocks teeth out, but a slap or a shove -- is different than being "beaten." The political correctness thing makes no distinction between an impulsive, angry shove and a sustained attack that leaves black eyes and broken ribs.

And the fact that you CAN restrain yourself is what makes you better marriage material than a lot of the creeps we post abou

I have an opinion too. I've hesitated to voice it here, because this thread is supposed to be about helping Caren.


In panic/crisis mode, the first thing to do is to attempt to achieve calm.
Nobody makes good decisions in a panic.

Caren's not stupid.

Caren knows that her WH is not coming back with a gun. She also knows that he's not coming back to beat her up.

In SPITE of the fact that everyone has had (IMHO) excellent advice for her...

Some of these posts, I would think, would do nothing but add to her sense of panic (let alone shame and embarrassment, which serve her no purpose), which makes it more difficult for her to get? remain? calm, gather her thoughts, and make the best decision for her and her children.

Again, I don't disagree with the advice... but I do disagree with -- in some of these posts -- the tone, the cutting, hurtful commentary, and lack of compassion and empathy. Caren's been beating herself up enough for everyone. Yes, she does need to figure some things out -- and quickly... perhaps "permanently"... she knows that. I just can't figure out what good it does to make her feel worse about everything than she already does!

Back to the important stuff... Caren, where are you... how are you... what's going on?