Owl ... there is an odd sort of defiance going on here ... it's as if a softening of attitude is percieved as a weakness. There is an unhealthy competitiveness afoot ... one where 'I win and you lose 'is the main objective, rather than working as a team toward a 'win win' solution.

It's very odd, and may be a lifetime pattern. Who knows.

Take care Owl. You did your best.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Maybe it's merely that I don't want to be with Bass anymore. I know that you people are here to save marriages at all costs. ITs' not about whose going to win or lose, at least from my perspective. There's already been losers. It seems it doesn't really matter what my feelings are anyway. It's better to keep the family together so that at least 3 of us will be happy. I'm sure i can find some joy in quilting and gardening. In my next life I'll be much more picky with who i choose to spend it with.

ROFLMBO....Win, you kill me.

Win-

I really don't care if you save your marriage or not. I don't know you or Bass. Whether or not the two of you make it will have no impact on my life.

What I find sad is the fact that you are the one I see constantly attacking, constantly rebuking, constantly making childish demands ( "You have to stop playing your games if you expect me to stop chatting"...etc...). He's TRIED to do his part. YOU are the one who's refusing to take any step to move forward. Honestly, he's the only one I've seen behave like an adult...and he's the one who plays the games!!!

If you feel that your joy is centered around not being in this marriage, then you really need to take a look around. Joy is what you make where you're at. Being happy is a choice. But YOU are choosing not to be happy. I know...I watched my wife make that choice for a short time too.

Quilting and gardening....that's rich. Did I mention that I crochet??? LOL...and guess what...I ENJOY it!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I play crochet too.

ANd by the way, no, you don't know Bass. He makes himself sound just fabulous on here. He has a way with words and being able to talk people over to his side. Sorry I hope that wasn't criticizing. It's quite an asset in his job.

Win, you are right, I do have a way of making a good argument. But I'm definitely not perfect. I've admitted my flaws on here and to you personally.

I feel like I'm being nothing but truthful on here. I know I have a long way to go towards being a better person, but I am working on it. Sorry, Win, but you're just being closed and hostile. I don't really blame you, because I know how unhappy you are, but I wish sometimes that you could just cut it out and see that there's a man here whom you loved in the past, and he's willing to do anything now to improve the relationship and make YOU happy.

I know I'm not perfect, but I'm trying to be better.

Well, regardless of how well I know anyone or not, I do hope that you two can reach a point someday where you can actually communicate with each other without intentionally lashing out trying to hurt the other person.

I can believe that he's very good at posing his arguments...it's part of my job too. I don't know him..I only know what I see posted here on the board.

In a way, it's like online chatting. You only see of the other person what they're willing to show you...and you only show that part of yourself as well. The reality is, you DON'T know what the person on the other side of the keyboard (or phone) is really like...because you've only seen the parts of them that they've let you see. And in this case, I've only seen the parts of both of you that you've both shared here on MB.

But based on what I've read here, I call it like I see it. If I'm misunderstanding you Win, then feel free to correct my viewpoint.

This is something I've been thinking about lately. I have a tendency at work to accentuate the positive things and to try and sweep the negatives under the rug. I do a lot of detail work and I'm NOT a details person, definitely more of a big picture person...so there's always little things I'm finding I forgot to take care of and I have to dance around.

Anyways, I kind of realized I had been treating my relationship the same way....maximizing the good things about myself, and minimizing the problems I have, which are very real and loom very large in the wreckage my marriage has become. I realized I need to stop presenting myself so positively, and to get off my pompous horse and admit when I am wrong more often. It's yet another thing to add to my ongoing struggle to be a better person. Ugh, I need a checklist to review every morning!

Well, it's very important to know your role in this, Bass. But here's the other side of the coin, and I'm speaking from personal experience here. Don't let this damage your sense of self-worth. I know that THIS is something I'm struggling with now...so that's why I'm cautioning you on this as well.

Hope you're both doing as well as can be expected.

Yeah, it's a battle not to get so down on myself that I get even more depressed than I already am. I know I have some major flaws in my personality due to selfishness and neediness. My thoughts have been returning the last few days to the "Taker-Giver" theory in the Harley books. My Taker is what has screwed up my end of any sort of Plan A to date, and it's the cause of a lot of the anxiety I feel. I'm trying to bury my Taker for now, just keep him shut up. I need to be a Giver right now; even if we break up, I know I need to tame my Taker and become more giving, and more open.

But I do keep reminding myself that there are good aspects of my personality too, and I'm not a bad person, I'm just someone who got into a bad rut of selfishness, aided by substance abuse. Now that I'm out of the rut I'm horrified by how I was acting, and I have a lot of regret for the things I let slide while I was wasting time on pointless hobbies. But I can still be a good person, there's good things about me along with negatives. And I'm working hard to get over those negatives.

Manage your anxiety ... a life-saving skill ... make this your priority ... it will serve you well no matter what happends...

this is a typical anxiety provoking thought

What if ..... ?

then your mind just leaves that question just floating out there ... unanswered ... and it just pumps anxiety causing corticosteroids into your cranium .. then you might repeat some pattern of inappropriate behavior to temporarily calm your anxiety ... like smoking, or booze, or porn, or emailing a OP ... and it works to lower the anxiety level, but the problem remains unanswered ... "What if ...?"

So ... write down all your What if's... and answer the question.

"What if she up and leaves me?" .... answer the question ... "I will be sad. I will not die. I will pick up my life and do the best I can."

Pain is a given, misery is optional.

Pep

here's the trick

answer the "What if?" question ... this is a calming technique.

Thanks, Pep. That's a good tip. I know when I'm feeling the anxiety it helps to post here, and I should try the "what if..." thing as well the next time I get wrapped up in worrying.

Bottom line is, I will survive and the kids will be OK if we split. It's NOT what I want, but maybe I need a lesson in not getting what I want. I do tend to take good things for granted, because I've led a great life up until the last few months. I guess it will even be good for me, in a character-building sense. I just wish I didn't have to lose Win to learn this particular lesson. I love her so much. She's still the best woman I've ever met in this life. But if she wants to be free then I gotta let her go, and accept things as they are.

Win and bass, bass and win…it’s ok…it’s all ok…to wonder if you still want to be with some one…to be to emotionally drained to work on *it*…to just not know any more. It’s all ok. But you don’t have to do everything in a day or a week either. Things didn’t get the way they are in one day or one week…so why would they change in one day or one week.

So how about you guys just agreeing to disagree…and how about instead looking for something simple…anything to agree on together? How about deciding that no matter what…you two will not say one harsh word to the other…for one week. How about agreeing to be separate…have separate lives…but to have them together…say like room mates…for 6 months…with out either of you having any one else in your lives…that is questionable one to the other?

How about just getting together a schedule of the mundane daily things that the two of you need to do…work on it together…and agree to have no arguments or debates about anything all week…except for say 1 hour on Sunday?

In labor negotiations this would be called a cooling off period. No commitments to anything or each other….except to just being kind and civil for a while. Divorce is easy and can be affected with little bother…so what’s the rush? Just take the pressure off the relationship…no fighting to change anything…just two people living together as room mates…showing each other the simple respect that room mates show each other. How about just practicing being kind? No one proving anything to any one? No one criticizing anyone.

Bass learn to zip it up and show…key word being show…a little responsibility for being and adult husband and father…kind of like practicing for next time…and win…learns to be a little less critical and to stop doing hurtful things…or things she perceives on her own…as being hurtful to Bass. No more pushing buttons…just quiet easy life together with no hard work to prove anything to anybody?

Is this not possible? It is a beginning…or it could be..
Coach

Coach, that's kind of where we are right now. We've both agreed not to do anything for the next 30 days (well, more like 20 now). We have a family vacation coming up in the first week of July and we both agree we should let the kids have a good time and not let them know anything's up until at least after the trip is over. We haven't really discussed what happens when we get back. We might decide to live together longer and wait to see if things can be salvaged, or we might decide it's not going to work and start getting the house ready for sale, along with telling the kids.

It's been working out OK so far, we are being polite to each other and I'm managing to (mostly) contain my anxiety around her. However, we are not spending a lot of time together, and she is very emotionally blocked off to me. I guess that's to be expected but it's hard knowing that she wants intimacy but I can't work on it! Frustrating but I can't force her to let me in. She's been spending a lot of time on the computer again but she's not chatting at least, just downloading music. It's educational, I get to see how she felt, wanting an emotional connection with someone who's plugged into the computer a lot of the time. I guess I just need to wait and see if she comes out of her shell, and continue to work on my issues while I wait.

Hey all, just checking in with a little update.

I've been reading "Passionate Marriage" and working on myself. We had a good counseling session last night and I explored some of the reasons why I'm so needy and afraid of rejection...basically, I had only one close friend growing up and no intimacy in my family life, plus I was bullied quite a bit in elementary school. I developed a good friendship in junior high that finally started to teach me a little about intimacy, but it was an incomplete education and I'm missing the early connection to intimacy I should have had with my parents. It's made me start to think about the relationship I have with my kids...I certainly think it's better, they talk about how they are feeling sometimes, but it's still not as strong as it probably should be. Yet another thing I could be doing better...sigh.

We also discussed what I'm supposed to do when Win voices negative opinions about me or the relationship. I have to stop trying to defend myself and just listen to her when she says these things. Our MC gave me the good tactic of asking her what makes her feel these negative feelings, so I can work on my own on changing how I present myself and making sure my tone to Win is not argumentative or condescending (or just agreeing to disagree, but doing so by keeping my mouth shut!). I'm really trying not to do that but it comes out anyways sometimes and I have to pay attention to everything that comes out of my mouth so that I'm not putting her feelings down. It's a lot of work...I'm learning it's just better to keep my mouth shut and let her talk a lot of the time.

We are going out to a concert tonight and I am looking forward to that. She always seems to have a good time at those and I love being with her when we are not arguing and just having fun. We have been doing that at odd times this week, and that's good, but then I'm suddenly doing or saying something to irritate her. She is telling me more often when I do those things and it's making it easier for me to avoid the phrases and rheorotical questions that make her angry.

I also start back into IC next week. I'd like to say progress is being made but I don't know. But that's OK, this will take a long time if it's going to work again, and Win is still here and still trying. The anxiety comes and goes but I'm trying not to bug her every second of the day (hence the posting here today). I continue to hope that I will be back in her heart someday, and that I can do the growth that's needed to get me there. I've come to realize in the last few days that I've been a child up to this point in my life and,whether or not Win stays with me, I need to grow up now. I WANT to grow up now. I can't stomach how I've acted the last 5 years and I don't ever want to go back to that place.

Another little update from my world...

Win and I are pretty much not talking, other than the "maintenance conversations" needed to keep a family going. It's kind of good and kind of bad. Good because we've talked everything to death and because we are actually able to laugh together at times when we aren't discussing things, but bad because I have no idea what's going on with her. I get annoyed sometimes that she keeps her feelings in a very tight loop of her sister-in-law and her mom, but it's not like I can force her to confide in me. Her basic last update to me on her condition was last Saturday, and it was the "I have no feelings for you, and they won't ever come back" speech, but this one featured the new wrinkle of an added "maybe it's just me, not you".

That proved to be kind of prophetic, because the thread with practically that very same title today posted by Timn420 really struck a chord with me. While I am not perfect, I am at least trying to work on my selfishness issues, and my controlling behaviors. But today I had to ask myself...do I EVEN want to stay in a relationship with someone who I'm probably not going to be able to trust again, and who can't state her feelings for fear of getting into conflict? For the sake of the kids, of course I have to say "yes" and hope that things can still be worked out. But if it was just me and her, and the children did not exist...would I be happy with this person? And that is a much tougher question to answer. There are certainly things that I love about her, but the trustworthy person I fell in love with is gone, and it's unknown if she will ever come back. It's fairly certain she doesn't want to BE that person anymore. And with realizing that comes more acceptance of the feeling I have that this relationship is probably over. It does fill me with sadness to be finally realizing this, but it's sadness for the kids more than sadness for us. And I'm coming to accept that I will survive a breakup and the kids will too, even though it will be hard on them.

We have a little less than 2 weeks until our "30-day cooling off" period ends (7/10/05, her birthday and the day we return from vacation). I have a feeling inside that her choice at that time will be to tell the children, and begin the process of ending things. I guess there is still a chance that she will want to give it more time, but now I'm troubled by the question of "how happy will I be in this relationship?". She's been trying to get me to see all along that she is a different person, and I didn't believe it. I attributed her vodka-drinking and chatting with dozens of OMs behaviors as an aberration that would go away if she would just stop chatting and if she went NC. But what if she has changed into someone who no longer requires a monogamous relationship? If that's what has actually happened, then there's no way she's going to be happy in a commited marriage, and I'm not going to be happy either, trying to keep track of what's going on behind my back. If that's the case, then maybe it is better if we break things off, despite the damage to the kids.

So we keep plugging away, with the deadline looming closer. I keep finding myself hoping for some sign of softening from her; I often daydream of her stepping into my arms and saying "let's try and make this work again". But more and more now I strive to trample that hope down whenever it arises. It's better not to hope...if we break up then I'm better prepared for it, and it's easier to manage my anxiety this way.

OK, this is way rambling, sorry. Had a lot of time to think today and the mind has been working overtime. But I really do feel better. I feel that there can be something positive out of this no matter how it falls out. And that's a GOOD feeling.

I suggest you keep to YOUR inventory...

Pep

Oh, I am Pep. I'm reading "Passionate Marriage", getting my IC set up (damn EAP is being slow), still going to MC with Win, Plan A-ing, and not LB'ing. Managing my anxiety too. But that thread with Timn420 today really made me think, and I just wanted to get that off my chest. Not trying to say what Win is thinking...to be honest, I don't know WHAT she's thinking.

But it's on point I think to wonder if she has changed for good and if I can deal with that.

Bass-

My thoughts are that you should just continue to work on improving yourself...and that should help you to prepare to end your R with Win if that's what's coming.

This was something that I started to face after my wife's EA...and honestly, if it comes down to it I know now that I CAN live without her...it won't be much fun for a long time, but I'd still go on.

Hang in there, do your part at least...so that if things DO end between you, you can look back and know that you did everying you were able to.

Hang in there man, you really helped me out yesterday. And yes it is a day to day thing. At least last night our MC didn't ask my wife for an ultimatum yet, but she is just barely hanging in there for me. She's torn between being free and independent and still caring for me. She believes that the independence is winning...

I've accepted the fact that she may leave me, but I'm really focusing on improving myself and building up my confidence again - I guess plan A? We've got a date planned for Sunday, which may be canceled if she feels anxiety about it, so I'm not holding my breath.