coach:

"as i have often advised others, time is the BS friend."

You're kidding me, right?

-ol' 2long

Don't I know it! That's the central issue for me too - and in my W's case it's the one OM for 7 years, so when she's begging and promising, I don't give a lot of weight to the promises. I just don't think she's got what it takes to walk away from a man who thinks she hung the moon. She would keep both of us if she could. And right now, my W is not promising - so that pretty much sets the direction for me. If she goes back to B&P, I'll have to reconsider.

-AD

cards tight against your vest

don't forget she's a much better player than you

acerbic wit shows the hand you hold

be a mystery right now

very important at this time
be quiet
observe
head up
dignity

share no thoughts
no opinions
no judgements

be as threatening as your aunt Tessie's 1950s wallpaper pattern

LOL

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I don't know Coach, something about this statement is very troublesome.

Justification, rationalization and WS fog are some terms which come to mind.

Wishing you the best Coach and am so very glad your kids stepped up to the plate for you, and for the whole family.

Some of my grandmother's sayings: "You've got to taste the bitter with the sweet.... and, of course "Every cloud has a silver lining...."

This is such a testimony of your SPECIALNESS as a FATHER...

Your children have been TRULY BLESSED by having you...

The best part about this is that they recognize and appreciate your VALUE to them.....

This has me AWESTRUCK! WOW!

This also shows how you and your wife TOGETHER did a lot of stuff GOOD AND RIGHT, a living legacy which will reach from generation to generation.....

Coach

reading some of this - and I didn't read it all by any means - I wish I had some great wise words to help you but I dont.
I barely get through a day myself let alone trying to advise on something like this level of complication.

Myself I reckon you should listen to those like PEP who have known you & your sit a long time..sounds like good advice to sit observe and say nothing and do a lot of thinking.
Whats the hurry, you can ALWAYS leave is the way I think of things.

If I could I'd take you for a few beers and go fishing, talk sports, go bush with my little mate Jake - Kelpie sheep dog - and try to enjoy the other parts of life .....mmm much like I'm doing now in fact. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So as I cant help & wont give crap advice all I can do is wish you the best.

In OZ we have a saying "Life was not meant to be easy" ..bloody isn't some times either.

Aussie

Being married to a narcissist is H*ll...pure H*ll. I know. It's not possible to deal rationally with someone whose only concern is themself and who is incapable of empathy. I remember reading that Coach had WW call several times per day at a pre-determined time and it struck me, nothing like living your day and regularly being reminded that you're an adulterer. That would only be the case with me. It wouldn't bother a narcissist because that's the means to the end. Just as what she'll be required to do to get over this indiscretion, it'll be the means to the end..nothing more..nothing less.

What struck me here is I wondered if Coach stays with WW, who will he grow to hate first, her or himself...

Keep quiet because... she ~is~ feeding on drama ...

remove every bit of drama you can ... DRAMA is her payoff for this crap ... DRAMA is ~why~ she does this ... you said so yourself~!

Pep

Yep.

A cheater, is a cheater, is a cheater. And just because one is smart, charismatic, outgoing, beautiful and looking for drama instead of love/sex does not remove them from "sleazy serial cheating XXXX" status.

I'm just now realizing how in love you are Coach, and like the others I feel so bad and hope things work out so that YOU end up happy and at peace.

jph: "What struck me here is I wondered if Coach stays with WW, who will he grow to hate first, her or himself..."

I think Coach should pay close attention to what jph wrote here. This is a very astute observation. A true seeing.

If by drama you mean...the excitement and fun of it. The illicitness...the daring...the ENTITLEMENT of it.

It is fun for her...until she is caught. I believe she felt entitled to her fun. She is private too...in a selfish sort of way.

Unless, she can learn, once and for all, who she wants to be in the light of day... What example of a human being does she want to be for her grown kids. 5 fo them...no less. She is obviously a loveable, charming, bright, attractive woman. She loves being all those things and being admired for them. What about being a woman of integrity, honor, and morality? Does that even enter her mind?

She knew what she was doing was wrong, yet she did it anyway. She was compelled by the addictive nature of those exciting feelings. You have to know that even if they may not have consumated this A that the whole EA was sexually charged...she felt that power and enjoyed enough to risk her M yet again. The question is can she learn enough about herself to really commit to fidelity to her H?

Yes, take it slowly, as Pep advises. Observe.

Will I ever trust my H 100%....never again. Do I believe that he will be faithful from here on out. I want to believe that, otherwise I wouldn't have given him another chance. He had to do the work. He did. Will your WW? Time.

We can't let complacency enter our marriage again. That is a daily challenge.

I will respect whatever decision you make in your situation.
I know how difficult it is..I really do.

I will say that I have long sensed that few around here have any respect for me for having stayed in my marriage. They insist that they wouldn't stay after a second A, and certainly not after a 3rd one. (My H had a 6 week A in 1986 or so, too) I hope that is a bridge none of them have to cross.

PEP forgot:

CHEST OUT! (Evidence of PRIDE and HONOR)

RUWW (Repeat Unrepentant WW) cheated 7 years ago...through much work n both your parts, your M healed...whether it really did or not is something you will have to deconstruct.

With your SIGNED and AGREED UPON covenant in place, RUWW KNOWINGLY and DECEITFULLY extablished at least an EA (if not a PA) outside of your M and your pursuant covenant.

I have gotten a lot of advice, but one thing that stuck in my mind was SOMEONE told me here that my STBXW (and your RUWW) have serious CHARACTER issues.

How has you M REALLY been since recovery seven years ago?

My WW and I BOTH admit we had NO marital problems, but she still behaves like a tramp...that is a character issue that CANNOT be resolved unless she WANTS to change.

Did RUWW seek REAL IC help during the last D-Day? Did it have a desired "result"?

If there are no underlying issues in the M, RUWW has character issues that make her untrustworthy (to say the least). Also, for RUWW to AGAIN visit the HORROR of betrayal on one she ALLEGES to love, is a telling thing that you MAY be investing in a lost cause...

Be strong...your kids and your dog NEED you!

WNB

Strikes me that she knew and understood you far better than you understood her. You really believed your "covenant" would keep her faithful. But she knew that it was just words on the page, something that she could violate without any serious consequences.

She basically knew she could do anything she liked, and you would find a way to rationalize it. I assume that you always have. Anyone who could turn her vile, hateful rhetoric and a bite wound into evidence of love scores awfully high on the rationalization scale.

I think there is no way to have a real emotional marriage with someone like your wife. She is not someone you could rely on to put your needs equal to her own, nor is she committed to exclusivity. If those things are important to you, you either need to divorce, or you need to scale back your ideas of what marriage is.

Coach..you ordered fidelity for dessert, she ordered cheesecake.

Trix:

"I will say that I have long sensed that few around here have any respect for me for having stayed in my marriage. They insist that they wouldn't stay after a second A, and certainly not after a 3rd one. (My H had a 6 week A in 1986 or so, too) I hope that is a bridge none of them have to cross. "

Not from me.

I think I understand that recovery after multiple As, or single LTAs, requires a lot more than verification and accountability. Coach's W demonstrated that it's always possible 2 hide something if one wants 2.

The question is, does the WS want 2 recommit 2 monogamy? And I think that, words 2 that effect or no, accountability agreements or no, the BS who's come out of their own fog will know sincerity when they see it...

...and be able 2 bolt if they don't.

-ol' 2long

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

And I have the utmost respect for anyone who is honest, loving and generous with their support to others, regardless of who they choose to love (and stay with) in their personal life, and that includes you Trix and you 2long and Coach, et el.

It's simply a matter of what you want. Your choice, and as long as no children are getting abused, your friends are bound by their friendship to uphold your decisions, and to accept them and to have faith that you have made the right decision for you at the time.

Edited to add: But by that very friendship comes a responsibility to speak the truth as they see it, and then accept what that person decides to do anyway.

Thanks 2long and weaver...guess I needed to 'hear' that today.

People told me that 'A leopard doesn't change his spots' and other such saying. I have to believe that is not true in every situation. with every cheater. Believe me, it is a great thing that my H has earned back his family's respect.
After all, it really did effect all of us. My H has always been the charming, attractive, a sweet, funny people person, with a side order of 'character issues' that he will probably always battle. He does work at. We all have our areas to work on.

I liked the quote someone wrote about people looking 'normal' until you get to know them. Or something like that. We all have our flaws...our weaknesses..

It is easy to judge Coach's wife and want to protect him from her after all she's done. He is the one to ultimately make this decision...as we all must do.

OT:
By the way, my H's dad died in a fatal car accident with his OW. My H had to identify his body. Sin's of the father?

He had lots of anger for years after, toward his Dad, for what he did to his mom.

The diversity not mention the disparity of the views being expressed here are really quite fascinating. The pain I hear in some of these posts…it’s so tangible…and I want all of you to know that I hear every word and thought and feeling that you all are sending me.

And I really hope that reading this drivel that I’m writing, is helping some of you to understand your own situations better. So let me not waste this opportunity, while I’m on center stage so to speak, LOL, to help out some of you…to understand a little…with what this is really all about.

My recovery process of 7 years ago was totally pro-active and left very little to chance. I had a plan…I didn’t go into this the first time, like a blind pigeon…After this mess settles down a bit I’ll post my plan and the covenant that I wrote…and you will all get some idea as to how my little mind really works…until then please trust that I do a have a bit of common sense.

The fact that my WW fell off the wagon doesn’t mean that she hasn’t tried and that she’s a bad person…essentially she is a good person, mother and companion…who does bad things from time to time. And some of us guys need to re-adjust our thinking a little bit…about the people in our lives…the hopelessness and bitterness I’m hearing is hurtful…to YOU! Not to me…but to you! And hurtful to me? Yes, but only to me as it applies to the empathy I share with you all. I don’t want you guys reading my posts and making decisions to not love and forgive and to try and do the things better…to do the hard and difficult things that we as mature people need to do…...to make all of our lives better.

And NO! I am in ni kind of fog... I am not selling myself anything…I am not lying to myself…and I am not fooling myself…and I am not trying to sell any of you any thing! Please know that if she (my WW) was the queen of evil I would not hesitate to lay that title at her feet!...If you guys know even a little about me…from reading some of my posts…you must know this about me by now. And here’s something else that all of you can take to the bank…I’ll get through this…and be better off from having lived it…make no mistake…But I’ll do it because I will not act against my own best interests…out of anger and a false sense of pride. If the time comes for me to pull the plug I have more then enough emotional strength to do it.

Please, all of you hear and believe me…I do not fear being alone or unmarried. I do not fear being with out her in my life…I have no shortage of self confidence…especially where the opposite sex is concerned. In fact…and I know that this will come a huge surprise to most of you, LMAO…but woman actually consider me kind of attractive. Especially woman under the age of 10 years old and over 70 years old! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />LOL I knock um dead in those two groupings! LMAO! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Companionship is not now nor has ever been an issue with me. So leaving her isn’t about me being afraid of anything…except…(there’s that qualifying word again) accept my making an error in judgment that will cause all involved…ALL…WW, children, friends, other family members…to be drawn into a place that we all…need not be. All this is about is me trying to do what’s right. And of course…yes, I do happen to love my wife…so shoot me. But don’t we all love with out pre-qualification? I mean, isn’t it true…we don’t love just because of but also in spite off?

Now that my anger has cooled…which is a good thing…I am very much more in control…of myself. This is all a walk in the park now. The thing is that I am so cold at this point that it makes glacial seem as hot as the fires of hell. But that’s OK. No one ever went wrong keeping their mouth shut and behaving with polite civility…at least I don’t think so.

It’s just troubling…to have to be back where I was before…making decisions that I made before…this is what is so frustrating, difficult and yes, emotionally draining and down right heart rendering. But I will survive…I’ll more then survive…I will flourish…because I have decided that I will…for my self and for those I love. And in my heart,…this is the very least that I wish for all of you.
Coach