Hi, found.

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She talked a lot about the forum here at MB - how you guys, well meaning as you are, do not know her and and our problems
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Your wife still thinks she is unique. She has yet to realize just how very common she and her actions, really are. She is working at an involuntary script, a part played by all adulteresses. All she has to do is pick up any of the dozen or so good books on adultery that describe her actions and attitude to a tee. Furthermore, there are hundreds of websites that do the same thing. The only reason she doesn't know how commonly unique she is, is because she is also ignorant as to her own motivations.

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... how she feels I am developing a case against her and how she feels I could win it - how taking the kids would be like putting a gun to her head...
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And getting a good legal case built against her is EXACTLY what you should be doing. I am going to tell you something, found, and you need to hear me. She can and will run off with your kids. She is perfectly capable, right now, of doing exactly that. Have you protected your children and your finances? If you think she is reading here, then you don't have to answer.

Your wife is not fully functional right now, found. You'd best be the hero your kids need.

All of your wife's relationship talk with you is essentially useless. Until she has NOT been in contact with any other man on an adulterous or relationship level for a period of WEEKS, anything she says is unreliable. There may be a nugget of truth in something she says, but until she has stopped doing what she is doing, you are wasting time trying to engage in relationship talk. That includes her staying off the sauce. Until she can do that, she is also an addict. All cheaters are liars, found.

Your stance is simple. "Wife, stop engaging in emotional or physical adulterous behavior completely, open your life to me in all aspects, and I will work with you to build a new marriage from the ground up." Anything less than that, and you have nothing.

God bless,
Gimble

Found,

It's funny how much you sound like I was last year! I exposed my wife's A (well...not completely, just confronted her about some phone bills catching her in a lie) last New Year's (1/1/04). She hit me with the "I don't love you anymore and want to leave" about a month before that. Talk about the worst month of my life! Well, without going into it all, I thought things were fine until it hit the fan AGAIN last August. I went through all of the emotions you are now going through. A friend of the family gave me the Dobson book "Love Must be Tough"...I wish I had read that book the previous year! Gimble is right, you have to stop being needy to your wife and actually be willing to let her go without the expectation that she will come back. It wasn't until I got to that point that my sitch (new term for me) did a 180. My WW and I had an into the wee hours convo and I went to bed thinking that she would be leaving me the next day. To my surprise, she called me to say that she wanted to "do the right thing"! And we've been getting better ever since. That miracle that you are now praying for happened just when I "let go".

I wish I had time to go through all of the similarities between us, but I just wanted to let you know that you are doing well in most respects and no one can expect you to do everything right. You will faulter and say or do the wrong thing here and there. Just get back on the horse and keep riding. God is in control. Never forget that.

As to your most recent question...do you really want to know if she did? The fact that it was at least an emotional A should hurt enough. The thought of your WW with another will eat you alive. I know, been there done that. Its like that song with the country singer and the rapper "its all in my head. I think about it over and over again....and it hurts so bad!" That song was my life for way too long.

Oh, I wanted to say that for the longest time my WW would keep telling me that she didn't love me, had no respect for me, threatened me not to involve her parents or anyone else, and that she did not want to reconcile or work on our M or anything. She was numb. But you already know that that's just how she felt at that moment. God was in control. Amen.

Hang in there.

OK this is a little risque, but if you really want to know you can buy a kit call check your mate. It detects semen on underware. If your wife has not had sex with you for 48 hrs and her panties (make sure they were clean) come back positive, then you'll have a pretty accurate answer.

Found,

I had the same situation as Sky. Things got so crazy during my wifes affair that I had to have her committed to a mental hospital for her own safety(her mother agreed with me that she needed help). This was the hardest thing I have had to do in my life. At this point I had decided that she had way too many problems for me to handle and I was ready to end the marriage. Once I made that decision my entire approach changed from trying to save her to trying to save myself and the children. My focus was no longer her. I did a complete 180. When she saw that I was no longer taking care of her and was preparing to split she did a 180 also.

Wow. A lot has gone on since I last posted, and this is the sketchy update.

WW and I have had a couple of good, long, late night conversations. Not particularly sweet conversation, but good nonetheless. I wish I had recorded them - I have forgotten so much - but I guess it is in my skull and God will show it to me when i need it.

Last night talking, she said a lot of things, then would say something like "you could use that in court against me" - she keeps talking - and I keep listening, and she knows that she would not do well in a court case - but she and I have enjoyed our talks so much the last year or so. Mainly this year. The one thing she keeps repeating is that she was gone before the first affair. I know it is on script.

She said that she feels like a caged animal, and like she was getting punishment.

Update on current affair (this is how conversation started) I asked does she still talk to OM. Apparently, OMW took his phone away! And she said "you read my emails, don't you?" (she discovered my surveilance a week or two ago) I told her no. (she has not used the home computers much lately) But she is getting no obvious comm from him, anyway. She has developed other friends, though, that she talks to. I do not know who she is talking to - but she still carries her cell phone around like when she expects calls from the OM.

I will stay on script. I do not expect D action, but she is watching close for signs of my making a move. I stopped direct deposit on our account this week, and will open a new account tomorrow. I will put half of my check in our joint account, and the rest in my personal. THis will give her a red flag - but she has had a personal account for over a year now, and she will listen to reason about it.
It is odd - she can be so reasonable about so many things, but so in the fog about others. She would say one thing that made total sense, then another that was just crap! You all have told me to expect this, and I do. Just relating for any interpretation that might come.

I may have made a disrespectful judgement about the OM that I have called a sex partner. There is no way to find out though. They would both lie. Oh - she might not.

I now need to work hard on Plan A. I have done it for so long that I have forgotten some of the techniques. I just do - and try to avoid LBs. I also am continuing to do some personal work. WW believes I have manipulation issues. I am booked with an IC to research that. I am starting the course on recoverynation.com to deal with the other issue.

I get weary of this. I am tired. We both have changed so much in the last two years. I KNOW that a new wonderful marriage can be built. She RESISTS that idea. But she keeps talking about how it could not work - so I know that she is thinking about it. Meanwhile - school starts in a couple of months, and we have got to start thinking about that.

I just need to communicate to her that I require her - if she is in the house - that she not have affairs. I am avoiding that conversation.

Oh - she did admit basically what Dr. Harley said - she might be ready to try again in five years. But she figured I would be married and moved on by then. (i sure hope so - if you know what i mean...) i hope my message from God is not just a transitional message to the same one. "Another year, dude." That is what He told me this spring.

I need some sleep.

And I want to go cry.

FAR -

Keep up those talks. One thing lacking in almost all marriages is intimacy. We spend all of our lives with our spouse and spend about 95% of our time talking about events, other people, etc.

I think the more time you two spend talking, the better, even if she is explaining why it could never work.

Believer - thanks for the much needed encouragement. You are appreciated.

I listened to her tell me a nuance about our son tonite, and really listened. About 30 minutes later, I went to her and thanked her for explaining that to me. She was suprised that I remembered it at all, much less was considering it.

far

I just discerned that WW wrote to an interested party at her job (who is away for the summer) that her husband was calling all the men she knows and accusing them of immoral acts with "his wife" (she put it in quotes). He responded - first with a comment about my being an a-hole, then informed her that i am performing illegal harrassment, and violating her privacy. He also mentioned that it points to anger, immaturity, and stupidity that does not hold up in court. (he lives across the country from the 8yo girl he abandoned)

He advised her to get an attorney, an RO, and hurry up with the divorce. This all coming from a person who has no problem suggesting engaging in questionable acitivity with a married woman.

Funny - her boss told me two weeks ago that the folks at that place of business do not give personal advise. Hmmm.

He told her he could not be bullied by me. I assume that indicates that the superiors at the hospital would take a "no involvement" stand, were they to be apprised of the sitch. Oh well - got a month before we have to deal with that one. Might be a good time to go to plan B. Let them figure out how compatible they are.

Just getting this off my chest. Nothing to act on at this point. WW paid twice as much for her anti-spyware software, according to my keylogger. I think she thinks it is working. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

GOod night!

FAR


I was just checking in to see how you are. It sounds like you need some (((((((((((hugs))))))))))))). Hope you are ok today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The issue with growing to the point of letting her know that I am not begging - that I am moving forward, without her if she choses. I AM getting to that point. I am beginning to think that it might be better to end it. I know that we could work it out if she came to the table. But right now it seems as if she will not.

I will keep up the fight. But, at this point, it is for the kids. I believe that they would benefit greatly from parents who were in love, and setting a good example for them. I am interested in a relationship with my wife, but she is gone and has been for a long time.

Mortar - I have a L O N G way to go before I can say that I have "died to self". My work might take too long.

WW and her friend (tenant) were in the other room tonight. I know WW was talking about me - they were whispering. One of those times when you just know. I do not know what to think about that.

Maybe I should not think about this stuff when I am tired.

Good night.

Georgie - thanks for the hug. How are you?

Its okay, FAR. This whole thing is a process. It has taken me 3 years to get to this point. And one thing I learned about this dying for my wife deal...it is a lifelong process. You never perfect it. You can never say that you are done.

Interesting thing my wife asked me this morning as I was getting ready for work. She asked "How did you do it?" What she was asking was how was I able earlier this year to finally stop being all over the map, to finally be completely consistent. To not LB anymore.

Shoot, just two weeks ago, she brought up issues from before liek the affair for the first time in 4 months. Normally, this would have sent things spiralling downwards.

But a funnay thing happened. I said what I believed aabout the former situation, what I felt about the OM in certain cases in the discussion...and then I shut up. I said it without turnign red, without LBs. Sure I said things like "Well honey...who do you think sent the OM to you...it certainly was not God." And in the past, I would have said it with a sneer or in anger.

Not anymore. I state the facts, and I even try to do it in a way that helps my wife not get defensive.

So, as you can see, it is a process. She recently said (after that conversation) that she finally recognizes that I have been the only one to stand by her through all of this...even when she was in the affair. That was HUGE for me because it was the first acknowledgment of me and what I have done...and the improvements I have made. We have been in recovery for awhile...but this was the first time she had opened up like that...without the "but" and a historical disinformation session.

Shoot, even in recovery, I had never heard "ILY" until recently. Always, if I asked "Do you love me," she would respond with somethign like "Sometimes." Recently, as things have kept getting better, she answered that question "right now...yes." Well, last night before we went to bed, I asked her again...waiting for her to respond with some qualifier for her love. Know what she said? A simple "yes." And I could see in her eyes that she meant it.

This is all a process. My wife's affair started in the fall of 2001. It is almost 4 years later and we are just now at the point where my wife is using loving names for me (honey and sweety...stuff like that). And it is just now that she is acknowledging me and what I have done. And acknowledging that she does love me.

The fog and addiction of an affair are very, very deep. It takes a long time, and a lot of effort to eid a WS of that fog. it is done through consistent behavior by the BS...and time.

So, keep learning, keep walking to that Cross everyday. Keep dying for her. Tomorrow, you will do it better than you did it today. And she will notice.

In His arms.

FAR,

I love Mortarman's response to you above. "Tomorrow, you will do it better than you did it today. And she will notice."

That is very true. Since my husband has begun checking out MB, I have noticed that he is really trying to avoid LB's and is instead filling up the love bank with mucho, mucho points. (This is AWESOME - so why am I still having my own personal issues?? Don't want to 'thread-jack' so will journal on my thread later.)

((((FAR)))) Keep up the fight!

So I took the kids today to get them out of WW's hair for a couple of hours. When I get back, WW summons me to a private conversation. She apologized for the pain I have felt. That she has caused. All the stuff I expected from that conversation. But she kept saying stuff like "we will never be able to trust each other" . We also talked about the kids, and how she lives for them. She is truly sorry for the pain she has caused. I explained how so many people have described it as worse than any physical pain they have ever had. And how it felt like i had a knife in my back, and how it was re-adjusted every month or so to keep it from healing.

Well - on my way out the door, packing my computer bag, I notice my notebook (journal) no longer has papers stuffed in it. (the papers were printouts of some of the most incriminating email she and OM traded). I noticed it because the area I keep it is flopping open. I check later, and find pages torn out. I did a poor job, and left my stuff where she could get to it. And she did.

But I think, maybe, it is was meant to be. She knows that she will sink like a rock in a courtroom. (she kept saying stuff like she would never take the kids from me) But she is now examining her life from a different perspective. I am not sure which pages are missing, but I have been carefully documenting her drinking in the journal. She now knows what kind of data I have.

I am not going to mention it. I am going to ignore it, and keep moving forward. She might be more open to marital counseling at this point.

I know - "lock it in a box" - I KNOW. But she had a different attitude when she spoke to me this afternoon. She kept saying "we could never trust each other" as if she was trying to convince me, or herself.

Well - another page turns, and we are in a new phase.

Maybe the stuff she intercepted will shock some of the fog away.

How do I start building up the trust, and fast? I know the answer. But ideas are welcome.

Thanks, MM, for your post.

bump
I need some input, please. I am thinking for myself - but I also value the voice of experience.

thanks!

No voice of experience; but many hugs and words of encouragement. You're doing the right thing, FAR. Keep it up.

Wish I could offer more now.

slh

Hi, found.

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How do I start building up the trust, and fast? I know the answer. But ideas are welcome.
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You can't. Period. It will take lots of time and effort on BOTH of your parts. Mostly hers to start though.

Please go and read Sleepless's saga, start to finish. Your wife is capable of doing anything at anytime. I have already warned you about this. For your kids sakes, stop leaving them unprotected by leaving yourself unprotected. When you are done reading, if you like, I will discuss it with you.

It is a good thing that you are trusting God, found, but he expects you to steer the damn car when you are driving it. That's not his job.

God bless,
Gimble

Her apologies are not genuine. They have strings attached. So babble back. When she says stuff like 'we can't trust each other'....

BS: Yes, I can't trust you.....yet. But I know why. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Short and sweet responses. NO details. Leave the WS wondering. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Reverse babble time

FAR,

Orchid and SendMe are right about reverse babble. And that she isnt at the point of complete honesty...yet!! So, I agree with them.

But, during my time with my wife's affair and my time on here, I have really come to be able to read between the lines when a WS speaks.

"we will never be able to trust each other"

Many WSs say this at this stage. Shoot, many BSs say that at this stage. Go on this board and look at how many BSs are second guessing whether or not they should even try. "How can it ever work if I will never trust him/her?" This is all a part of this dance...all a part of the script.

The good part is that you have reached this stage. She is talking this out. Much of what she is saying now is for her own benefit. She is in the fog, shouting out of it. She is trying to make sense of nonsense. the more she talks, the more she hears herself, the more she sees where she is and what the reality is.

And the reality is that you two can trust each other again. My wife and I are just getting to the point now where there isnt anxiety from triggers anymore. This all takes time.

You must stay on script. Keep Plan Aing. Use reverse babble when needed. And keep stating that you believe the marriage can work and that you two can get past this with help. That the best for everyone (including the kids) is for the two of you to work on this marriage and try to save it.

Steve Harley, in the first private session with my wife (while she was in the middle of the affair), asked her a series of questions. And the amounted to:

SH: "Do you believe that the best thing for children is to have a mother and father there for them?

Mrs. MM: "Yes, of course."

SH: "Do you believe that the best thing for children is to have a mother and father that are in love with each other?"

Mrs. MM: "Yes."

SH: "Do you believe that the best thing for your children is for you and Mortarman to be in love."

Mrs. MM...had no answer.

You see, intellectually, she knew the truth. But when it came to the affair, she couldnt take that truth and process it to herself...to us. She admitted that the best thing for children in general is to have two loving parents. But when put a different way...the best thing for her own kids...she balked.

Thus is the nature of affairs. It takes time for things like what SH did to process thru. Thus, her discussions with you like the latest ones should be met with reverse babble and with truth. All the while knowing that she is not going to accept those things all in one day.

On the loss of the documents...its okay. Actually, in a weird way, it might help. You see, she doesnt know what else you have. You might have more. You might not. The point is...SHE doesnt know that. You might have copies of what she took. She doesnt know that. And that is all good. It will cause discomfort in her current state of affairs.

So, make sure that she doesnt know exactly where you stand in regards to evidence, etc. And from now on, leave that stuff in your desk at work!!

You're doing good! Dont know the outcome yet, but so far, your WW is right on script!

In His arms.