Equally insulting? Are you kidding me?

Froz - you can be as cryptic and mysterious as you wish, but it doesn't change the fact that this woman has found porn - not just any kind of porn, but child porn - the kind that requires intentional downloading and copying onto disks in order to possess.

It doesn't change the fact that Patriot is working overtime to make the case for protecting the perp from a surprise attack, which WOULD give him time to destroy evidence, and try to come up with some plausible alibi.

It gives me pause to see a woman post to protect and give a perp time, who then reveals that she herself has been through this as a mother...

You also don't know my background. I have revealed my experience as a reporter, but I haven't said anything about my work in psychiatric hospitals working with people who willingly, eagerly sought out addiction recovery. You know nothing about my experience in recovery groups with women in the situation you claim to have been through - the choices they had to make in order to protect those who couldn't choose for themselves...

You don't know my experience as a spouse of a porn addict, an addict who spends every day fighting to avoid falling into the deeper pits of more deviant behavior. You don't know the path of recovery that I have taken as a spouse of an addict, to overcome my own tendency to enable in order to "preserve" my marriage.

There are many conclusions I could come to, that I haven't expressed, because I don't have the information. I asked for clarification because of the evidence at hand - Patriot's passion that the man should have the chance and time to explain a crime away, your rushing to defend Patriot's view... Tell me what I'm missing!

Don't insult me for not reading your mind.

What a bunch of sensational, extremely short-sighted ****.

First, to committed. I will apologize for calling you ****. Silly knee-jerk reaction. However, I think you replied directly to Froz, given the timestamps noted on the posts and the fact that it was a reply to froz. I seriously doubt it took you 5 minutes to write what you wrote. There is a 4 minute break from the last post and yours. If you had simply clicked quick reply, I think your post would have been a reply to ktulu. Now, in all fairness, I have stated my side. Please state yours. I suppose my first question is who are you specifically talking to? Given the emotion noted on your post, it seems to be a post 'sparked' by something you read. Who wrote it?

lemonman: I suppose I have IDed with the perp, but in this fashion and this fashion only. He went from having child porn to being a mad child rapist within the confines of this discussion. WE have no facts. Nothing other than there appears to be pictures. So we have zero idea what is in this guys head. I suppose we can stipulate... and that has occured. Recklessly, in fact. Interestingly enough, the best advice I saw was given by froz. She posted a website of information that included hotlines. People to talk to that know what they are doing. Try to beat that advice. I submit no one here has.

KA: Are you simply trying to be offensive or do you have a purpose for such remarks? My... what a plotty novel if I was the perp that molested froz's child AND she was working on our marriage with me. I find your remarks to be the kind of **** I would either see on Jerry Springer or in the 5th grade. I can blame my foul language on the Army. What can you blame your issue on? Also, froz read your post as requested on the other thread. Did you read hers? Have you read anything about her? or have you made assumptions and begun to run with them(which... oddly enough was my ENTIRE point and yet has been the very issue that has degenerated this conversation to drivel).

Melody: I guess it is always a good day when a lady from Texas yells at me. Fires me up for football season.

BR: man would I love to be able to even try to discuss this with you. But geez... who can keep up with all this? I never said this was not crisis. And possibly you don't like my advice... which is fine. I didn't like yours.

A few of my simple points are these.

Before you go posting advice to people you should really think about what you are saying. I think the hotline approach was probably best. I also think it is important to gauge a persons probable emotional state. No one here is held responsible to any measure for what they say here. I doubt the police will show up at your door if, after giving advice you think is sound, the person you gave the advice to kills themselves. My precise point is to understand there is a lot of power in giving advice on these forums. Especially to new folks coming in when someone presents themselves as some sage. Understanding that is my point. Being responsible for what you say here is. And on that, I seriously doubt I have done more than anger committed for my remark. Calling someone **** is not life changing. Calling the cops without a moments thought is.

And that brings me to my other idea that I was trying to convey. She found the ****, so yes... she has to turn it over to the authorities. Now, the point is... does she do it as a unified front with her husband or does she do it on her own. It was the middle of the day, yesterday, so he was at work I assume. He obviously was not there with her. Unless it is all a hoax. but save that, it is safe to assume she is at home with this new found ****. So, my point was to find out the husbands side before you call the police. I am not sure what timeframe people assign to that.... but it could be as simple as get off the forum right then and call him. You want shock value and him not being able to hafve 'time' to think of a lie?? Then hit him at work. If he has a valid explanation(wth that looks like... who knows) then great, she has not ratted out her husband and accused him for something he didn't do. But if she so much as thinks for a second that he is lying or otherwise, then it would seem she is on her own. Then certainly, call people... do whatever you need to do to protect yourself and the child.

And, how we got from child porn to molestation seems like reaching. Also... this is America last I checked. You have to DO something wrong before you can be convicted of it. So... you want to nail him for owning child porn? Fine. He has it. Maybe he has some explanation. Maybe he doesn't. If I was her, I would want to hear his side. Then make a decision. Now, you can toss in the fact that he is controlling and dominant and the sexually deviant behaviour and all that... but does that take away his right to tell his side? No. And my point is I would give him the chance to tell his side to me... the spouse(in whatever safe way I decided). I said nothing of destroying evidence. I never said be an idiot. I said get his side. and then if(and probably when) you find his side to be bunk, turn it all in. I never said do the wrong thing.

A marriage is a special thing. That is what I am trying to protect. Not some sicko.

So.. again. one last time. And maybe better stated.

IF I was at home right now and my spouse was at work. And I found child porn on disks in the house. I would be shocked. And then I would want to know *** is up with this **** being in my home. I would probably be angry and upset. BUT I feel my spouse gets the chance to tell me their side. Need a short timeframe? Still want a surprise attack? Fine. Call the spouse NOW. Find out over the phone what is up. Find out if your spouse is with you(yanked the nasty **** from a kid last night,yesterday and meant to turn it in today but forgot it or something) or against you(er... um... no... not mine.... what are you doing snooping in my ****...uh... I can't talk about this right now...)

Either way ends with turning it over to the police. One way, you walk in together. the other way, you walk in alone.


oh.. and KA. You are absolutely right. We don't know your background. Have you ever posted it? But then again, you know nothing of our background, unless you read it. I am sure you can see and understand the subject of molestation would be touchy with someone who has had it happen to them, yes? So to seemingly imply that froz and I are trying to protect this person(who is not guilty as far as we can prove of molestation, btw) and for committed to say 'well what if this happened to you... you would be so quick to protect this sicko" might not be received really well on this end.

And I would think understandably so. Again, reinforcement of my idea that one should think before they post. Lots of assumptions were made on this thread. People assumed victory. People assumed defeat. People assumed this guy is a sick ****. People assumed you could bolster any argument by sensationalizing "save the children". And I find it odd. I fully want the children safe. I am a member of an organization that protects adults and children so that they might be free. I protect people everyday. I protect people that hate what I do for them. That burn the flag in protest of what I do. They have that freedom. We provide that for them.

Fundamental values, really. Freedom is for everyone. Not just the white folks. Not just the black folks. Everyone.

And innocent until proven guilty. Until I talked to my spouse, I couldn't honestly say I had explored enough to determine it. But, given the situation, you would have to be quick. And smart.

No where have I said harbor a sick criminal. And no where have I said hide the evidence from the proper authorities.

So, if you still don't understand where I am coming from, please ask a question and do not make assumption. Frankly, I think it is too hard to keep up with all the flying accusations to be able to deal with them all. And be at work at the same time. So.. there that is.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> "without a moments thought"

Is Froz going to see this comment as "judgemental" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I disagree here, with your post, agree with most of the others.

I work extensively with abused children. I have seen firsthand the damage that is done to children who are used for sex.

Let me also tell you this: child molesters are predators. And yes, looking at child porn makes a molester. Fantasy is only one step from doing. He does not think children are sexy. He gets off- literally- on controlling his victim. This is a sickness that will not improve with secrecy.

No one should ever stop to think about child porn. The only reaction should be to call the police for the sake of all children everywhere.

And does BS really want to read the paper next year, about the next door neighbors kid getting raped?

Point of clarification. There are either pictures or there is not. There is no gray area here. If you believe the poster, then there are pictures. There is no "appearance" of anything.


Which is all great, however, this is not at your home, this is not set within the confines of your marriage, and this person is not you. I, previously, stated my opinion and stick by what was said in my #2 scenario based on my life experience, which you didn't honor with a response.

--------------
#2 Look at the dynamics of the situation. If you go back and read the posters 1st post, you'll get a better understanding of the situation. Mr. Husband is the head of this household and dominates it on all fronts. The poster is young, scared, and impressionable. I'd be willing to wager that if she confronts without having a back-up plan or already blowing the whistle that the likely outcomes of this situation are not plesant. I spent several years as a foster parent seeing the exact results of what happens when a wife or a husband chooses not to do the right thing or gets bully'd into shutting up or gets manipulated. Actually, I'd venture to bet that if he came clean with her and promised he'd stop, she'd let him off the hook.

Bill... I totally agree.

Pep,
exactly. What I did was judgmental. I apologized for it. What more do you wish for me to do? What seems appropriate? Revoke my privilages of posting here? I am not perfect and I have emotions as well. I admit it was judgemental. No hiding from it. What more do you wish from me?

LH. Try not to get hung up on the 'appears' word. Of course there either are or are not pictures. It seems there are. Never once did I say to hide them from the police. And as far as honoring your reply with a reply, sorry. I will go back and look at it, but in the rather frenzied fashion of assumption and defense posting, your post got lost in the mix in my mind. Not trying to ignore your gem of wisdom. But I hope you understand that sometimes things get missed.

And on life experience.... froz has it. She did not hide the perp. She was not groomed by him or otherwise. She did what I have been discussing. She made sure her children where safe and then got his side. And in short order she called the police. No doubt it was a chaotic time for her. I have heard her tell the story. A nightmare.

And yes it isn't my home. But would you be willing to use that very defense against ALL opinions posted here? Or would that kind of remark only be reserved for the opinions YOU don't like? She asked for advice. It was given. Some were concerned about the advice being given.

Then... somehow, those concerned that some advice might be damaging or premature got called enablers and *** dudes. All of which was not really helpful to the original poster I am sure.

So, whereas I find child pornography disgusting and deviant to the extreme, it does not carry the burden of proof for molestation for me. Now... if the child pornography WAS the owner with the children, THAT is proof of molestation. And also disgusting to the extreme. Vile.

so.. now I will go read your response.

I see your post and it is stipulation. I however, think it is a highly likely scenario. So.. what is wrong with calling him to get his side, with evidence in hand and then going to the police after the call. If you want to prevent him from running, then don't tell him you are going to the police.

Be smart about it. I never said anything contrary to what you are saying. Unless you want to simply factor in the 'she is extremely submissive, impressionable and so on' to discredit the getting his side of the story.

Interestingly enough, she is SO impressionable and controlled that she sought outside help for a problem. That, an action, seems like a person that is not so controlled.

I don't have any wish for you to anything but what you are already doing Pat.

I was refering to something that was said between Froz and myself about having friends who won't judge ... my preference is friends with good judgement.

I've been trying to gain an understanding of her position on what constitutes judging vs judgemental ...... but so far, unsuccessfuly.

“””I see your post and it is stipulation. I however, think it is a highly likely scenario.”””

I see it as “highly likely” as well, because I’ve seen it played out often, that being said, I’m [censored]-U-MEing that you meant to say that it is “Unlikely”. Again, all I can say is that I’ve seen in played out and had the latter result stay in my home fighting for a chance to be a normal child.

“””So.. what is wrong with calling him to get his side, with evidence in hand and then going to the police after the call.”””

Absolutely nothing is wrong with that, other than the risk of him going crazy at being caught, if you have assurance that will happen. Again I say, that is not my experience.

“””Interestingly enough, she is SO impressionable and controlled that she sought outside help for a problem. That, an action, seems like a person that is not so controlled.”””

I would beg to differ. She is simply led to another crossroads. I’ve had such cases in my home where pretty much the last person to know was the police. The spouse reached out several times. Each time he/she was put back in there place until it was too late. In the cases that I dealt with, when I say it was too late, it was because the children were finally removed from the home.

I have no idea what this man is capable of or what he has done to this point but I think we all agree that from this point forward there are serious risks involved. If he is able to sweet talk his way out, he’ll simply do a better job at hiding things, just like a spouse caught in an affair.

no one opposed this idea


and this is where you lose me. Again, so it does not get lost in this discussion. I do not think child porn is ok. It is nasty vile and disgusting. I hope that is clear enough. Now, taking your example ... and the fact that these folks practice BDSM... how about this.

One evening they set-up a rape role-play. Now, so far, everyone has played the 'consenting adults' card. But role-playing a rape is a fantasy. And as you say, that is one step from doing, and therefore we must stop this person. So, if they role-play a rape, is he a rapist?

I don't think child porn makes a molester. Sure, not to be ignored as a possible sign for sure. But I think molesting a child makes a molester. Just like I think murdering a man makes a murderer. Not the wish of it. Not the desire of it. The doing of it. And for as sad as you may think that is... that is our system of government. You have to COMMIT the specific crime before you can be accused and guilty of it.

Again, I have said nothing to imply ignore the red flag. For crying out loud, watch the red flags and be on high alert. Or leave if you wish. Or whatever... but you have to COMMIT the offense before you can be guilty of it.

Maybe I just choose to not assign guilt with out sufficient proof and THAT is the issue.

Also... Pep. Please explain your question about froz seeing something as judgmental.

And, how we got from child porn to molestation seems like reaching. Also... this is America last I checked. You have to DO something wrong before you can be convicted of it. So... you want to nail him for owning child porn? Fine. He has it.

I don't get this statement at all, Patriot. Possession of child pornography alone IS doing wrong....read FELONY in AMERICA. Think FBI involvement when the computer is involved, which it almost always is.

I have a great respect for those whose job it is to thwart child pornographers, it is a depressing, oftentimes frustrating profession. It is disturbing stuff and beyond my own comprehension that it is valued by those who view it for sexual gratification. It is LOGICAL to conclude that sexual gratification is much more satisfying "in the flesh". To question whether or not a collector of images of children (as young as 4, in this case!) being violated, has acted on his private fantasies with a living, breathing, available child is also logical. Not a "reach" at all, in my book. I see no reason to apply the benefit of doubt in a situation like this, all possibilities MUST be considered. KB

It's something she said back on page 1 or 2 ... and I asked what this means to her and she quoted a dictionary definition ... so I am wondering about what she meant in context of her life ... but, oh well, I guess I can wait.

you assume incorrectly. I called it what it is. Stipulation because you have little or no facts to back it up. That said, it sure seems like the probable scenario here. It passes the common sense test. It sounds reasonable. All that.

So, if for some reason you are irritated at me, think I am your enemy or whatever... maybe that should stop. I am not against you. I am not against children.

but I am not for reckless accusations.

Yes I know possession of child pornography is a felony. I would also agree that he sure seems guilty of it.

I have yet to have proof of child molestation. Now, please be sure you understand the word proof as I am using it. Proof as in the kind of evidence you could use in court to convict a sick *******.

Not proof, like he said/she said **** and calling it proof.

Why do I get the feeling that I am saying much the same things you are, yet you think I am not. I have stated child porn is disgusting. Molestation is disgusting. But you can't just go pinning charges on people because you are just sure that will be the next step. No matter what historical anecdotes you have.

What now? We go from a society that covicts you of a crime you committed to a society that convicts you of a crime you thought about?

Pep,

Do you really care...or are you just throwing that out there to be snotty?

Oh ... that's OK Froz ... I retract the question.

Hey, that exact thing is happening. A person enters an internet chat room, starts an inappropriate conversation with a person who says they are 14, but they happen to be an adult police officer, they can arrest you for intent. The person hasn't acted on anything, but because they thought it and typed it....they are going to jail.

[edited for spelling]

Where did all that come from? I have been nothing if not respectful in trying to have a discussion on this matter based on my life experiences and points of view. That we agree and yet disagree has peeked my curiousity. I fully understand and appreciate that our views on this may never fall totally in-line with each other, I'm simply trying to gain and offer knowledge. I don't feel that we are at polar opposites here, I believe that our point of contention is actually when/if she'd report this to higher authorities and by what manner.

When I was in the Military, we did "Risk" assesments before any missions. If "I" do a risk assesment on this sitution provided with the limited knowledge that we have and factor in my life experiences in this arena, then I come up with the conclusion that it is too risky not to actively persue immediately turning the evidence over to the authorities regardless of anything that Mr. Husband has to say.

Pep,

I haven't retracted MY question.

Do you really care what my definition is? Were you simply asking that rhetorically to be snotty to me? If you do care what my definition is...why? Will it help me? Will it help you?

If your intention was simply to argue with me or to be snotty to me, I'll be happy to let it go. If it's going to get us somewhere, then let's start another thread. This one is pretty chaotic already.