hope it is the solution for you...it is what i'm doing!! buying time while protecting ourself financially-hey us girls with little hope but lots of love need to stick together!

but i refuse to call it separatio agreement-never agreed to it and never will-i call it a property settlement.

Everything is decided but we are still married until/unless one of us files at the end of two years unless of course the one with legal grounds choosed to file before two years.

call a few lawyers who give free phone consultations and specifically ask about a legal separation. they will charge you for drafting it and send it to your husband for him to review and decide his next steps based upon what your agreement offers. It would be great if the two of you could talk anythin out so that you agree without the lawyers needing to negotiate since they will charge for the time.

i've read 8 books so far and read tons of stuff online....could be a legal assistant by now!

goodluck...let me know how it goes.

osxgirl-i'm from MD too! would you be willing to read my post and give advice?

Thanks OSXgirl and EAV, I am doing some research right now. I will update you. OSXgirl, you made an excellent point. If H does not see this as my necessity to protect myself and my son, then H would continue to think selfishly and justify his self-centerness.

I have not contacted him for a whole week. He called me on Mon., so I did speak to him and sent him an email to reply to his message, and he called DS2 on Tuesday but I did not even speak to H. I thought he would email me yesterday to ask about taking DS2 out sometime this weekend but that did not happen. I know I have to be tough (TOUGH LOVE!!!!!!), but it hurts to face the reality that H does not care.

Milk:

Are you ignoring me? It's alright. I just wondered.

Let me know, OK?

Mimi, of course NOT!!!!! I really VALUE your advice, you know that! And I am listening to you, and looking for a way to protec me legally.

I was doing some research on the marital separation agreement (property agreement) EAV mentioned. The results are a bit of disappointment. It appears to me, that the property settlement is something you do in the course of DIVORCE, and it does not look like something I can do BEFORE agreeing that we are going to D. Maybe that is why the lawyer said there are either LS or D. But I could not find a whole a lot of information (when I type in property settlement or marital separation agreement, I get a lot of "free down load!" type sites). One of the sites explain property settlement as

"The property settlement agreement enables a divorcing couple to put in writing their agreement regarding property ownership, support maintenance (i.e. alimony or maintenance) and child custody and support".

I have to ask a lawyer about this.

First I need to retain a lawyer. I have to decide which one. Then I will ask him/her about the marital separation. If that is not an option, then I have to decide whether I should go for LS or D.

This is a big decision and I am trembling... H called this morning but I did not answer (we could be out, right? It was 10AM). He did not even mention my name. He only said "hi DS2, how are you, I miss you and love you so much. I don't know where you are, but when you come back, give me a call back, okay. I love you and a be a good boy".

Now, he is only 2, so of course DS2 will not just get the message and call H back. DS2 can't even make a phone call on his own. H knows that. So he is PURPOSELY ignoring me. I am trying to ignore the pain, but it hurts.

I am at H's brother's house - well, he is working so DS2 and I spent the afternoon with his wife and her kids.

My best friend and my sister-in-law AGREE that I should be financially secured but DO NOT believe that H would come back just b/c I take some kind of legal action.

I know, I should be doing this anyway, and should not consider whether H will be back or not, but how do you really ignore your hope? My therapist also warned me "MILK, if you are seeking the legal protection in hope that your husband may come back, don't do it b/c you are going to be disappointed".

I will do it, I will take some kind of legal action, but it is just so sad to think that I am about to close the final chapter.

I am just venting here, as I know there is nothing I can do other than protecting myself and my son. How do you accept the reality? Just by facing it and dealing with it?

milkshake - Get an attorney and protect yourself and your son. Don't worry about how that will affect your husband. I know you have very little hope, but we see miracles here everyday.

Thank you Believer. I know I need to do this regardless. And I will do it. I will ask if the marital separation without divorce agreement is possible, and then I will decide which way to go. Most likely I will have to choose btw D and LS, and I will continue to think about this but in the mean time at least I will decide on a lawyer and retain. That would be my starting point.

Thanks for your support.

I need your help!!!

H did not call/email me in advance last week to arrange for a pickup for DS2. In the past, I usually asked H during the week or sort of reminded him and we arranged for the pickup. Last week I decided not to do so.

H left two messages yesterday. We were out pretty much all day. H was upset in the second message. He said "hi, I am calling to say good night to DS2. Well, I will cal tomorrow morning then. Since I haven't this week I need to spend time with DS2 next week, okay!? Like two days".

Since H asked DS2 to call back in his first message yesterday morning (it was a message for DS2 and no mention of my name, and H was asking DS2 to call back when he got the message), and H called again last night, I feel I should call him back this morning.

So here is my question. Should I tell him it is okay for him to pick up DS2? DS2 misses his daddy, but at the same time I do not want H to think he does not have to arrange anything in advance and assume he can come pick DS2 up as he pleases. Then again, maybe in H's mind because I told him about Sunday pickups last week, the schedule is already in place and thus he doesn't have to ask me in advance during the week. I don't know, but what should I do?

I want to go to church so if H is going to pick DS2 up, it is better if I call him now so that he can pick him up earlier and I don't have to drop DS2 off at my neighbor's house or the church's daycare room. Either way DS2 will cry and scream for me, I just know it so I don't really like to drop him off. He already suffers emotionally. But am I setting bad example to H by letting him come by at his last minute request?

Milk:

I would recommend that you do what is best for your son.

What do you think about him calling to ask for your 2 year old son to call him?

Continued manipulation....

Set up a regular visitation schedule, expect him to comply with it, write it down, in black and white, if necessary. This is another reason why legal protection would be helpful. You would not need to talk with WH period.

Take Care, Milk...

Hi, came back from church. Thanks Mimi. In the end I did not call H this morning, b/c I knew H would not be able to come here on time and I did not want to go through unnecessay agony.

I dropped DS2 off instead at my neighbor's house. He initially cried, but apparently he had a good time with his friend, the 4 year-old girl. So I am glad I dropped him off there.

I spent good 2 1/2 hours with 7 other divorced/separated/recovering women at the church. This is a support group that meets every Sunday for women with marital problems.

One of the ladies' FWH was also SA, and he had numerous emotional affairs (including those in his head) and actual physical affairs. They were separated so many times (FWH would move out, come back, then would move out again, etc. for six years) and the wife ended up filing for divorce, but then before it was finalized her husband met God and came back. Though the lady said it is still hard, and everyday they have to work on their issues and relationship.

The other lady was just like me, very scared but it seems D is the only option she has. She was crying and I could relate a lot to her.

I got a lot of mixed feelings while I was there. I learned that the pain I am going through WOULD NOT go away EVEN IF H comes back. There is going to be a lot of work. At the same time miracles happen too. Then those who unfortunately ended up divorcing b/c that was the only option left, are doing okay now.

So I felt a bit stronger.

I called H back when I came back b/c he left another message this morning saying he wants to talk to DS2. I let DS2 talk to him after I dialed the number, and H was asking DS2 what he was doing where he was, etc. DS2 was too busy helping me take the clothes out of my dryer, he wasn't really responding. Then to my surprise (this is the first time!!!), DS2 did not show much interest or emotional pain talking to his father and simply said "okay, bye-by Papa" and handed me the phone. I was relieved that DS2 did not go through the usual drama. I was really happy.

Maybe God is protecting us. So I felt stronger, and talked to H very normally/positively. H asked me if we were at church this morning so I said yes. H asked me if we went there with my neighbors and I said no. Then he asked "is everything okay?" So I replied pleasantly "yeah, things are fine", and he said "oh, I will give you the check - I will mail it to you", so I said "okay".

I felt GOOD after the phone call. It does not mean anything in terms of us getting back together, but I felt STRONG regardless. Maybe I can do this. Maybe I can survive.

That is the state of mind I am in right now. Could change any minute, but I am grateful that at least on such a beautiful day like today I am feeling fine!

can you explain?

does your counselor think that taking legal action will KEEP him from returning or does he think you are trying to SCARE him into returning and warning you it won't work.

I have waited 14 months to have an agreement with my husband in the hopes that he would come home...all i got were empty promises of "maybe...but i'm not ready yet" and he;'s grown angrier and more resentful of me.

i see this agreement as buying time and stopping his feelings that I am keeping him from his happiness...giving him some time to try out the life he THINKS will make him happy while i avoid love busting and try to meet his first emotional need-openness and honesty for the 9 remaining months we are married.

now i'm again afraid, from what you said, that maybe this agreement will just put more nails in the coffin so it's harder to bring this marriage back to life:(

Eav,

No, my counselor did not say that he thinks taking legal action will make things worse. He simply warned me not to take the legal action IN THE HOPES that it will bring H back. Because then if it does not work, I will get even more depressed.

I know exactly how you feel EAV, and I am so sorry that we have to go through this - that we have to do this against someone we trusted.

But then again, like I said in my previous post, I met today those women who are either in recovery, the divorce process, or have been divorced. Just because their FWHs came back, it does not mean that they are stress free and experiencing no pains. There is a lot of work to do b/c BSs' trust has been broken, and in many cases FWHs are still exhibiting the same pattern before recovery.

Of course I still think it is GREAT that their spouses have come back, but also learned that people like you and I are very scared, b/c we think if our husbands are not coming back, we'll lose or that would be the worst outcome. It may not be so. We will try EVERYTHING to win our spouses back, but if that does not go well b/c our spouses do not want to cooperate, then maybe we might have just minimized our future pains by not allowing them to pretend to return to us but keep doing whatever they have been doing. That won't be a great outcome either.

I am very scared too, EAV. But once I learned that I might be afraid of something that in the end might be in my favor, I felt a bit stronger.

Your H's comment "maybe... but I am not ready yet" sounds like he may not be 100% convinced that he wants to D, but at the same time he wants to continue to enjoy his current lifestyle. If he does not make a full committment and just pretends that he is coming back to you, he may well do the same thing again. That could be worse than losing him now, b/c you will lose many more years in your life.

And people here have told me that miracles happen. And those ladies told me the same thing - two of the ladies I met today, both filed for divorce and were in the process, but then their husbands decided to come back.

It's difficult but I am trying to believe that if H refuses to come back, that could actually be the best thing for me and my son. If H decides to come back, of course that would be wonderful. I know, easy to be said than done... but you are not alone EAV! Let's fight and feel good about our futures regardless.

Had a nice afternoon with my son today. We went to a nearby water park with my neighbor and her daugher, and another family with a boy who is DS2's age. While we were at the park, I did not really think about H - maybe once or twice here and there, like "oh if H was here, he could have taken DS2 to a bigger slide" or "H could have taken our picture together" or something, but it was more for the logistics and not my usual "oh, poor my baby, he is without his daddy when a lot of other kids are here with their fathers" kind of emotional one.

I am not naive enough to say now I am okay and strong. I am far from it, and I know again tomorrow morning will be hard, and when I speak to a lawyer next time it will be harder. But I am glad I could really enjoy the afternoon with my son, without feeling any emotional pains. I don't think in the past 8 months there has been no single morning/afternoon when I did not really worry about my future or getting really depressed about our marriage. So I was simply happy that I was CAPABLE of spending more than three hours being happy.

DS2 might have sensed my normal emotions and was very happy this afternoon. Yes, I kind of wanted to see H's message when we came home this evening, but he has already left three messages since yesterday morning, so it is unrealistic to expect more messages from someone who is not interested in our marriage.

I hope I can maintain my positive attitude throughout this week and enjoy myself and my son.

yes...this WILL become the paperwork for the divorce once someone has GROUNDS for divorce as it decides finances, seperates assets, and makes decisions about custody....but my husband and it sounds like yours-do not have grounds until 2 years living separate and apart and although you and i have grounds to file before them, we are choosing not to.

this does not automatically lead to divorce-the person with ground has to file and it can be revoked by both of you in writing at any time if you reconcile

in my state, as in others, this is what people use who: 1. may want a divorce but do not yet have grounds 2. want to seperate to decide what they want but want to have in writing financial and custodial decisions 3. do not want to offically divorce for religous reason

still look into it....have you had any free consultations?

also, some states/counties have free legal clinics that provides services based upon your income-if needed you may want to look into this-call the court house as they might know-that is where it is held on a weekly basis in my county

good luck

MILK:

What a great Sunday afternoon!

I would suggest thinking about what made yesterday so different for you so that you can continue with that strategy. Was it spending time with others? Was it spending time outside in the sunshine???????

Good for you......

Thanks EAV and Mimi.

I went to see a shrink this morning. She prescribed ADs, but starting at a very low dosage of 5mg. I am still against the idea of relying on the medication, but thought if I am about to enter a potential legal battle and as a consequence I may get depressed, it might be good idea to at least see the doctor and have the medication handy. So on the way back to my office, I stopped by a drug store and picked up my medication. I need to decide whether I want to take it or not, but at least I have them with me now. I will get the input from my therapist when I see her on Wed about this.

Now the very experienced and expensive lawyer called me back this morning as well. I made an appointment during the lunch time today. Both H and I want to minimize the legal costs, so this is kind of defeating the purpose, but if I think we can come to an agreement then I will just negotiate with H personally and that way we can minimize the costs even with the expensive one, I think.

Oh, I just called the lawyer I met on Thursday to ask about marital separation agreement - he said it is possible. It is like D, in a sense that it decides on everything but the couple remains married technically. He just did not suggest that though b/c it is going to be waste of money and there is risk that H may come back and renegotiate when it comes to D.

This lawyer will cost me 50% of the expensive one. So I am calculating - if I choose him, then even if we do the whole D filing all over again in case H contests it, I will end up spending the same amount as hiring the popular one. So should I go for the less expensive one? But would he be good enough in negotiating with H's lawyer and presenting in front of the judge?

I am so confused. This is a tough decision.

Milkshake -

I would talk to the expensive lawyer and see what he says. In California you can get legal financial agreement written up for about $350. if both people agree to sign it. It will stand up in court if it goes to divorce.

A legal seperation is the same way here. Whatever financial agreements are in the legal seperation are final when it comes to the divorce. However, if you decide to divorce, then you have to pay the $2500. or whatever the retainer is, again.

Be sure you have a good understanding of all of your options. I would not try to negotiate with husband personally. That is what I did, and 2 years later, after spending a couple thousand dollars, we still have nothing.

Milk:

I strongly recommend that you take the ADs. The dr. wouldn't not have prescribed them if she didn't think you needed them. The medication will not harm you at all. It can only help you.

Like I told you before, the separation agreement worked fine for me with an inexpensive lawyer.The lawyer's worth as an attorney is not necessarily associated with how much is charged. I saw a high price lawyer who wanted me to proceed with divorce and tried to rip me off... I RAN FROM HIS OFFICE!! Lawyers don't tend to work towards keeping folks together... The lawyer works for you. You can make your own decisions after listening to the lawyer's advice. Be careful with attorneys.....

Sounds like you are moving in the best direction for yourself...

I am off to the expensive lawyer. I will have to pay for this one, but it is a good investment to determine whether he is worth the $$$. I already did the free consultation with him, but since I am paying now, maybe I will see something more from him which I will use to decide if I would like to retain him. Also I will try to see if he will give me a break on the hourly fee.

Unfortunately in IL, LS and marital settlement agreements will not be used as a ground for D. Sure, it may be a starting point, but it cannot be forced. Everything starts again. So once my H gets lump sum money by separating legally, he would most likely have much more incentive to go for more when it comes to D, so that would not be a very wise move on my part.

Anyway, I will update you once I come back from the attorney's office. I have to taste the ice cream before I decide to purchase it, but this is going to be a very expensive ice cream!!! I better like it!

I don't really have anything to add on the stuff with the lawyers and all. You pretty much know the options, and just have to decide what's best for you in your circumstances.

I did want to give you some info on the ADs though. I don't know which ones the dr. gave you, but there are a few things to keep in mind with them, regardless of what they are....

They aren't like Tylenol, where you take it when you have a headache. You can't just take them when you are feeling depressed. It can take a month or more of being on ADs and taking them as prescribed, every day, before they really kick in and you see the effects. By the same token, you really shouldn't just stop taking them. Most of the time, the dr. wants to gradually lower the dosage to wean you off of them. If you have been taking them and then stop suddenly, it can be a real shock to your system.

And finally - there are a whole range of ADs out there. Not all of them work for everyone. It's usually a trial-and-error process to find the right AD and the right dosage. So the prescription the dr. gave you was likely a "starter" - basically, dr. is starting you out on that med and that dosage to see how it works. I'm guessing that the dr. wanted to see you again in a month or so, right? If not, I would not be too sure about that doctor.

I'm obviously not qualified and not cognizant of your state of mind enough to know whether or not you need the ADs. That's presumably what the psychiatrist was doing. But I will say that if you are going to take them, you need to understand how they work, and do it right. They really aren't the kind of thing that you can keep around "just in case." Either you use them or you don't, but you need to be consistent with them if you do take them.