win is a WS. Sure.

But how about take that discussion onto another thread. Talk to her abouit HER problems there.

All I see is the issue at hand(bassistist and the big 'out of nowhere') getting overshadowed by her shortcomings.

HE did something wrong. THIS thread discusses that. I just think it courteous to take HER something wrong to another thread.

... it's like 'big deal, you did it first' in here.

We'll start here, it is helpful...just not the kind of "help" you are looking for Win. Yes, you are to blame. You want to know why? Your H couldn't treat you like [censored] if you didn't allow it to happen. That is one of the things you'll learn if you stick around here and grow and get better. Boundaries Win, you let him cross yours (if the two of you ever set any that is).


Win, Love is an action. You allowed somebody else in instead of directing that energy towards fixing your marriage. That is water under the bridge right now. OM is out of the picture and rightfully so Win and soon you will see it for the unrealistic fantasy it was. You may not want to hear it but Win, really, what would a 20yo boy want with an almost 40yo woman? You'll eventually figure it out for yourself if you stick around



We covered this, you may not have said it wasn't wrong but you sure aren't interested in placing any blame at the feet of the person responsible for it Win.



The truth is a 2X4 to you Win, thats OK, someday hopefully you'll just see it as the truth instead of some sort of putdown. The kind of help you are looking for right now doesn't exist here Win because it goes something like this.....

"Oh Win, I am so sorry you are married to such an [censored]. You were so justified in doing what you did, you did nothing wrong it was all your Husbands fault....He is such a jerk, how did you stay married all this time? I would call the OM and fall into his arms tonight! He is the ONE for you really, how did you let him go so easy, I'm sure your kids will love him too and you'll all live happily ever after with your 20yo soulmate"

Is that what you want to hear?

Or do you want to hear how you can make lemonade out of the lemons in your life right now?

Good Luck

RBM

Owl I understand, yes I was angry. I know that what I did was not right. I think bass' manipulations of me has made me angry and defensive and I apologise.

His PA's are bad enough but what really disturbs me is how he treated me in regards to my EA when he KNEW what he had done. How he had called me names i care not to repeat when he was aware of and involved in what I was doing. And how he used my guilt to his advantage to try and make me stay with him, rather than giving me the time and space to heal.

Thank you patriot. This is what I've been saying. I"M always the one blamed but bass had done horrible, manipulative things to me, not just the PA's. Which is why my gut said in the first place not to save this M. BUt I came here anyway to see if I was wrong and to see why I fell in love w/someone else and to understand my situation. I guess the lesson is in marriage both parties are to blame in some way. I'm sure there are cases where one person is just solely responsible but most involves both people. And sometimes it's healthier for both people to move on. Clearly bass needs to look at his sexuality and needs and decide if he has a sex addiction or if he chooses a different lifestlye. But he needs to work on that for himself. I don't care to be involved in his lifestlye choices. His PA is only a small part of why we cannot be together. However a very SIGNIFICANT part.

pat, I don't want to make this a thread jack so I say this and leave it.

Of course win's H's behavior is reprehensible. We are all very sorry for her sitch.

The issue is that she proceeded to use it to justify her own behavior as she has done with so much his behavior from day 1. It seems that this was the main gist of the post...to say "See? I'm not so bad. Here's why i had to have an affair."

We're clearly only hearing her side. She strikes me as someone who LOOKING for a reason to justify her affair. Seems she found one. If you want to help her validate it, that fine. That doesn't help her.

Let's say she dumps his sorry butt (maybe she should) and continues on to another relationship. Will she continue the same refusal to take responsibility behaviors?

She's not going to be able to deal with her H's issues in healthy way until she can address her own.

Low

Pat,

I don't want to threadjack here so I'll make this short.

It isn't about who did what to whom or who did what first at all.

He did something wrong..oh yeah...huge, gigantic wrong.

Pat, are you coming out of your fog yet?

If so you don't see where nothing has changed with Win, this is just a new justification.

The point is it doesn't matter anymore, the lying, the cheating, the betrayals, the dirty underhanded dealings don't matter anymore.

It's time for Win to focus on herself and what she has done and get better, become better and that isn't going to happen while still justifying, still laying blame, still not taking any responsibility for anything.

I can't force Bass to come here and post, if this is true he probably won't, so I would rather focus on what Win can do to help herself. It starts with responsibility and you know from the other threads that just isn't happening...at all...

Pat, you taking responsibility for your actions? Do you think you could recover had you not done so?

Simple stuff Brutha...thats why it just doesn't matter who did what to whom anymore.

Time for healing, time for truth-telling, time to quit blaming

How many times should I say. I KNOW WHAT I DID WAS WRONG! What else am I suppose to say? But it's not the reason this marriage failed. No one ever got on bass for anything he said that he did wrong, but whatever. I really have no reason to be here obviously. Thank god I have a therapist to help me deal with these issues. Right now I have to deal with his issues and mess, I have been dealing with mine for some time.

This is a waste of time because everyone has a "side".

take care all.

Do you even know what my "affair" was? I flirted online/phone sex with OM's WHILE my hubby watched and waited for his turn to get off with me. All of which he encouraged. Then I fell in love with one OM who wasnt just interested in me for the phone sex. H knew I was talking to all of them.

Actually Win, that's the thing...we DON'T have a side. I gave advice to both you and Bass...I tried to see both viewpoints.

And that's what everyone is telling you is that you BOTH made mistakes that lead to the problems in your marriage...but you can only fix your OWN mistakes and do your OWN part in making things right.

No one knew about this latest issue until you brought it up...and even YOU didn't know about it during the height of your EA.

Bluntly, I agree with you that it is a HUGE betrayal that he did this on one hand and continued to act as though he'd done everything right. And if he decides to post here, I'll be interested in hearing his side of things...but will know that reality is likely somewhere between what you see and what he sees.

Don't think that we've all got a 'side'...just know that I've only posted advice with the intent to help you BOTH...like I've told you before...I don't personally know either of you, and whether or not you remain together does not affect me in any way at all.

Yes owl you are right. You have always tried to be fair. I have learned a great deal from this and at least I want to work on myself and of course stand up for myself in other relationships. At least I am going to therapy to make sure that I heal and become a better person. Now, I obviously have more anger issues to deal with. But I know that I will be ok. And hopefully can have a trusting, fulfilling relationship somewhere down the road. And I will take some of the MB principls with me.

But it will be years before i am ready to be in a serious relationship again.

Win, Owl is right and I agree with him completely.

Hopefully you'll stick around so we can all enjoy the new, improved Win.

Good Luck

Yes Win I do....

I didn't just jump in here and comment, I've read all the threads since it started.

RBM

to RB and LO. And in no certain order...

Have I taken responsibility for what I have done? Yes. Have I done everything right in trying to face it and take responsibility according to MB or 'reasonable' principles? No.

Have I grown? Yes. Do the 'goods' outnumber the 'bads'? I think so. still more road for me to travel... but who here is perfect?

That said, my point is really simple(though I wonder why I ALWAYS have to explain.... maybe I am just THAT confusing... or confused).

Win had an EA. Period. For whatever that is worth, there it is. She has done at least some things to deal with it(counseling and trying to post here... maybe other things). Yes, she needs to take responsibility for that. However, IF what she says is true, it sounds like bass used her 'EA' (that he knew about and watched happen) for his own sexual enjoyment. It seems to have been a component of their sexual relationship. Now, if you recall a poster not a few weeks ago practicing BDSM and everyone then said whatever two consenting adults do is whatever they do... then maybe you could take that into consideration here. My opinion is that her talking to other men on the internet and bass finding arousal in this is playing with fire. There are people out there that engage in threesomes and foursomes... or more, and as long as everyone is 'consenting' then it seems to be 'ok'. But like I said... it's playing with fire. It is a deviant sexual behavior and when a couple starts delving into such practice, it seems that one of them always takes the 'fun' a step further than the other one was wanting to go.

So, lets call win bins actions deviant and a step further than she needed to go. An EA if you will. I am fine calling it an EA if you are.

If so, then lets take stock of what bass has done, if it is in fact true(that said because he has not given his side... but I seriously doubt win bin would get away with saying this for too long before bass comes on here and refutes it...if in fact he can). Bass has had multiple same-sex partners and engaged in a PA. This is extremely deviant sexual behavior, obviously NOT okay'ed by win bin, and dangerous. Lemonman is the Dr., but I believe there is a MUCH higher chance of blood transfer during homosexual sex and he has exposed her to the possibilities of STDs from this.

For sarcastic punch, I challenge you to find an EA that produced a case of the clap... or worse. My keyboard is AT LEAST clean enough to not be carrying warts or syphilis no matter WHO I am talking to and about what. Unless I have some sort of sick phone penetration thing going on... I think that device is ok too.

Now, what advice would you give to a new poster here in this situation? I would submit that the first words to anyone in this crap would be 'sorry to hear' or some variation of that. "get tested for STDs" or the like. "protect yourself and read these books or things". Sure, win bin is not new, but did anyone think that his PA(and the manner of it) kinda brings a different set of challenges to her than her EA did to him.

And that is not even addressing the fact that he came here for help and support when all the while he was doing something evil and well within the context of why he was 'hurt' in the first place. Talk about the devil taking the moral high ground.

And then to have people get on here and gloss over her troubles to simply give a few words to her about this catastrophy only to be overshadowed in remining of her transgression(s).

It doesn't even seem decent. PA's are filthy. It is disgusting to even picture what goes on in them. Add to that one's perception(possibly) of homosexual sex, and maybe you want to vomit. Personally, I was a little sick. Call it the Army guy in me. But I know my bias and so I give credence to the other side of the coin.

So, her EA, while wrong and she needs to not do it again...I think the real issue of THIS thread is bass's PAs. That he hide from us all. And rode the moral high ground to the hilt. and endangered his wife. And so on.

geez... he had Pepper on his side somewhat giving him advice on what he needed to do. You think she doesn't feel a small bit betrayed knowing now that she was giving advice to an alien still riding the fence hard?? And lying to everyone?(not that I mean to single her out, but she is all about give us the real story so we can help you... and we did not get the real story)

I don't agree with win bin's EA. But then again, I don't agree with using other men to get revved up for sex with my wife. And in her situation, it blurs the lines a bit for me on EA or not, though falling in love was NOT something she should have done and I will call THAT the EA.

Something tells me she never used him having sex with other men to rev her up. And she is here to tell that story. So you and I get the truth, if in fact it is.

I for one think she needs to take responsibility for what she has done and stop blaming anything SHE CHOSE on bass. But what he did is the topic and she has a pretty fair reason to get something of her chest, I think.

I support you win bin. You are not perfect, but you have been wronged. And for that I am sorry. If you want someone to talk to, I would be more than happy to continue posting to you in threads on here. And I seriously hope you are not permanantly damaged from this.

Hooboy.

Err.

Hi, Win. I'm J. My story is, perhaps, similar to yours. My story also involves same-sex relationships, opposite-sex relationships, and known relationships mixed in with aspects of those relationships that were secret.

So let me tell you a little about what you're dealing with.

Right now, you're enraged. You feel that way, more or less, because you're humiliated, hurt, and terrified.

The anger keeps you able to function while you're feeling so bad, and right now your body thinks it's more important that you function than anything else.

Your body may be right about that. Unfortunately, anger is a really poorly directed thing. It's useful for beating off wild animals when they're attacking your young (which is what it's actually designed for). It's not so useful when you've discovered a series of affairs with other men. There's no saber-toothed tiger to drive away, here; there's just your husband and his actions.

The things that your husband have caused you great pain. I would like for him to end those things and get some very serious help. Sexual addiction (you're probably right about that part) is extremely difficult to deal with. A twelve-step program is probably his best bet.

But that's what I would recommend to him, not to you. He has a very difficult road ahead... and so do you. Whether your marriage survives or not, there are some very basic things that you're going to have to deal with.

One of them is your sense of your own self-worth, which has just taken a huge and sudden nose-dive. Part of that nose-dive is from your relationship with the other man. I won't call it an affair, since it was a known situation that your husband encouraged. Unfortunately, the outside relationship still does damage to your own self-worth, even if it's not an affair. That's because it hurt your husband (I'm not going to say whether he's right or wrong for having been hurt; the hurt itself is enough to do this) and you're attached to your husband. If you hurt him, it reflects back and harms you, too, through your attachment to him. That, too, is designed primarily to keep us from being eaten by bears, but when we hurt someone we love, the pain comes back to us even if we can't feel it because we're angry. That's a huge aside that has all kinds of stuff to do with biology; sorry about that.

Anyway. So, from what I can tell, your relationship with the other man has also ended. Though that was painful, it's actually going to improve your sense of self-worth in the long run. You DESERVE someone who can be focused on you, and it sounds to me like the other man probably wasn't.

And then there are your husband's outside relationships. A terrible blow -- they turn your entire world upside down in all kinds of ways. Your husband, who you thought was faithful, sleeping with someone else?? Your husband, who you thought was straight, sleeping with men???? Your husband having multiple such encounters and living a life that you knew nothing abouth???

Very painful. It will take you a while to rebuild your sense of self, and a sense of an understandable world.

Rebuilding that sense of your self and your world is probably the most important thing you can do.

Right now, you're in such a chaotic and disorganized state that you probably can't even think through what to make for supper, much less force yourself to eat it. There's no way you can think through in any sort of compassionate and careful way how you want to handle things with your husband.

I can certainly see that this might be a good time for a controlled separation. (There's a good book out there that explains what those are.) I can also see that this would be an excellent time for you and your husband to get really serious about dealing with a whole lot of issues. Yours being the ones I outlined above, as well as learning more about what a really solid intimate relationship looks like.

His being the sexual addiction and also learning about what a really solid intimate relationship looks like.

I hope the very best for both of you. If there's anything I can do, toss an e-mail my way -- I'm not here very often. You can reach me at [email]justj_mb@yahoo.com.[/email]

Oh, and something I should have said first, rather than last. It's time for you and your husband to go get STD tested. All of them. And some of the tests are not pleasant at all for men. (Yes, even less pleasant than a pap smear. A lot less.)

Every sexual affair is risky, and if he's had multiple partners, his behavior is very high risk. I hope to goodness he was in with a crowd of gay men who take safer sex seriously, but there are no guarantees in the world of multiple partners. Please. Get tested and follow the doc's advice for risk reduction and retesting.

First, I'd like to make certain you understand one thing in particular Patriot. I was never , and I do mean NEVER, on Bass's "side". I was on the side of their marriage ... understand? Whatever and whomever gave me a little edge/opportunity to work on behalf of the marriage, I took it. WS or BS, makes no difference to me.

I do not feel betrayed in this instance by the way. Isn't that interesting? Know why? I never did (and still don't) think we are any closer to knowing what actually transpired between these two lovebirds.

When this first came to light, I said to them that Bass was essentially pimping his wife to get sexual satisfaction. And Patriot, do you know what happened next? (I think this may pre-date your arrival here)...

next ... BOTH of them attacked me. They both defended the practice of Bass observing Win turn on other men for Bass's sexual pleasure.

There is not enough integrity in this situation for anyone to claim the high road.

hey! I put a disclaimer. And it was basically that you were on the side of their marriage. He seemed to be on that side too.

Seems he was not.

I did interject a bit about the betrayal you might feel. Sorry for that.

But I am pretty confident in saying that you are all about trying to find the real story so you can deal with the real issue. And I said that.

Now, if ye are donest chastising me, then all can be right with the world again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Having a good day? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

And the pimping observation is quite right. I agree with that remark and in laymans terms... it's playing with fire.

Thank you patriot for your support. I don't know why everything has to come back to my EA when I was talking about his PA. Perhaps I should have posted under a new name. I'm tired of sayin that I realize my EA was wrong because no one ever seems to read it. I guess because my EA came to light first, though H participated in it, I can't get support that I need. I wasn't coming here to blame him, yes I did rant. But so did he when he found out about my feelings for the OM.

Like I said before, that no one read, we are both to blame for all the problems here. I wasnt saying its all his fault for God sakes. I just want some healing, at least i'm not in denial about that. He won't even go, doesnt think he needs counseling. And also said to me that he would have said or done anything to keep me whether he meant it or not.

Reborn, Please dont post any more adivce to me. I know what I need to do. I just needed some support like all the other BS's get here.

LOl Patriot! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks J, I appreciate your insight. I'm filing papers tomorrow. Its time we both work on ourselves, move on and focus on our children.

Now that is about as unhealthy as you get. With trust already distroyed by actions, this statement will further the road to recovery by thousands of miles.

Anyway, please get checked for STDs. Address that issue soon. And do it again in 6-12 months. Because of him you get to live in a kind of russian roulette situation. That sucks. Please talk to your counselor about the truth of all of this and get it addressed. Your health, mental and physical, has to be the most important thing.

If you could find a church or some sort of other support where people are involved and are very compassionate, that would probably be VERY helpful too.