[color:"red"] Patriot92,
As Mrs. Wondering pointed out in her last post to this thread, I was going to email this to you, but as I was not completely sure of your email address, I decided to go ahead and post here instead. Sorry to let my awaited rebuttal slide for so long. I was asleep early last night, in court all morning, and meetings with clients preparing for an upcoming trial most of the afternoon and evening. After I got home late and finally finished this post, somehow my computer went haywire and my original words were deleted-ARGH! I had to start all over, so unfortuantely, I have been unable to address your issues myself, until now. Mrs. Wondering has made a couple of very legitimate "fair is fair" posts. She is quite aware that I can adequately defend myself, and though she is more emotional than I, she was/is not deserving of any criticism regarding her defense of me. I have certainly seen Frozen passionately rush to your aide a few times here, as well. If there continues to be a dispute, I believe that we can keep this between just you and I (or the 4 of us if need be)-off the boards completely. I hope by expressing myself with more clarity herein, perhaps, at most, only a friendly debate will ensue.[/color]
Wow. It is times like right now that I am ashamed of this community as a whole. What a bunch of selfish, "my pain is worse than yours" hypocrites you are. Sure, there are planty of level-headed fine posters around here, but the community ran coach off on no proof or anything. It was plain meanness, mob mentality and sport.
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]
Coach chose to leave. He is free to come back. Many of us overreacted that fateful night and learned a lesson as well. I was new here and believed the fabrication conclusion was a fact. My feelings expressed more elaborantly herein, are what I felt more adamently back then. I do not feel obligated to give Coach the benefit of the doubt. I also do not accept that because many,
maybe, jumped to the wrong conclusion, that we are somehow responsible for running him off the boards. That is ridiculous. I know now that we’re not obliged to trust anyone here. If, and I say “IF” with strong emphasis, Coach chose or chooses to prove himself and his story then he’d have my sincere apology if HE really felt the need or want of it (which I find highly unlikely as I don’t know the man). I am not required by you or anyone else to apologize up front, or temper my honest feelings, just as he feels he doesn’t owe me or anyone here any explanation. [/color]
Some group of folks thought it was funny to private eye coach via the internet... and the person that paid the price was coach.
-Patriot92
What a fine bunch of supportive a$$es this community was for a BS, indeed.
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]
We were only "a$$es" IF the story he spun was fully true. But, since I personally said “IF” yesterday, then I was not being one of the so-called "a$$es" in my post. But you still saw fit to attempt to personally attack me, ridicule my feelings, villify my opinions and intimidate me to respect your vision of the board's reprehensible behavior unjustifiably. So I ask, “who was the "a$$" yesterday?"
[/color]
He didn't drive the traffic here, he just captivated it with an outlandish unconfirmed story.
-Mr. Wondering
unconfirmed? Outlandish? How exactly are you qualified to make the determination of what is and what isn't real? The short answer is you aren't. I would be more than happy to discuss the finer points of validating truth across the internet if you wish because, lucky for me, given the amount of access on this site to other people's locations, true lives and so on, you can't. He!!, for all you know froz and patriot are just me, and I am one bored person in the world that finds comfort in making all my story up.
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]His story was in fact ”outlandish”. As are many stories around here. The use of the term “outlandish” does not mean false, as you seem to believe. In short, it means bizarre. It was not meant to be judgmental, and I’m sorry that you chose to read it that way. Even Coach indicated his appreciation for how unbelievable his story was. So I can't for the life of me understand why he chose to be so distraught, hurt and amazed that others might not believe him. I would have laughed everybody off, much as Lemonman did when his factual history was temporarily questioned. How can you presume that Coach could be so affected by an internet discussion board? I further questioned his sincerity BECAUSE his responses appeared to
me to be of a fictious nature. Why would anyone posting here feel so insulted that a few individuals did not trust them or, perhaps chose to question their alledged true stories, along with their asserted reactions to those aforementioned stories? It is my opinion, that Coach's reaction to these "questions" was actually a gross overreaction. This is especially true, as far as questions from a newbie, such as myself, are concerned. Not only had I, never posted to him, but was also not here, back when he was, apparently, espousing such sage wisdom and advice. Heck, for all we know someone, maybe his wife, highjacked his name and made up his entire story.
Your statement, “for all you know froz and patriot are just me” concedes the fact that every story on this forum is really unconfirmed. Hence, labeling Coach’s story as “unconfirmed”, is merely another statement of fact. Nowhere did I affirmatively state that his story was not real. I merely questioned it. Thus, Sir, your rant about my not being qualified is unwarranted, as well as, illogical. I do indeed still have serious doubts about Coach’s veracity regarding his story. His over the top (IMO) responses did nothing but solidify my hypothesis as far as I am concerned. I don't owe Coach my trust.[/color]
If all or any part of his story was untrue or embellished, then I for one, feel cheated for having read it.
-Mr. Wondering
why? because he came in here and preached anti-MB ideas??
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]
First, let me point out, yet again, that I said
“if”. I am not presuming anything, merely stating that
if he was making the whole story up and/or embellishing it dramatically, then it is my opinion that he did a great disservice to me. (In my original post, I did not mean to imply slight embellishments, but I did not feel it necessary to go into greater detail.) Shortly after my D-Day, when I found MB, his thread was consistently at the top of the boards, and appeared to be one of particular wisdom regarding MB principles. His thread served only to compel me to obsessively question, whether or not I wanted to stay married to Mrs. Wondering. While I do recognize that it is normal for a BS to question continuation of marriage when faced with the discovery of infidelity, I know that Coach's thread brought up issues surrounding this commonality, that I now know absolutely do not apply to my wife. Because of Coach's assertations, however, I was caused more duress than I was already subject to. Many BSes, like myself, are completely alone in making the difficult determination of just what to do. We intuitively or instinctively keep the affair a secret which further isolates us. My coming to this forum, and then shortly thereafter reading about what Coach was going through after 5?+ Years of recovery, really added insult to injury for me. The fear of additional affairs as dramatic in nature as his situations always seemed to be, at a time when I was already overwhelmed in dealing with the one that had just made it's catastrophic debut in my life, was almost more than I could bare. The way that he questioned his wife’s character and ranted about her "true nature" made me obsess about my wife’s character/nature, as she was acting so incongruently to the person that I had always known her to be. In retrospect, of course, I now recognize her foreign behaviors as FOG. At that critical point, however, I did not understand that this was the standard for a WS. I am not going to look up quotes or anything, but it is my opinion that Coach did not apply any productive MB principles towards his situation, or at least he was remiss in posting them in his thread, if he did. Had he have done this, his thread could have been used advantageously by newbies. They do come to Marriage Builders as a source of guidance and assistance in dealing with the dawning of infidelity in their own lives. While it wasn't Coach's responsibility to be a lighthouse for newbies, IF his story was not one of fact, he was indeed causing harm. Newbies do not recognize the "good" threads from the "bad", for them the path is so unclear, to steer them deliberately in the wrong direction would be more than irresponsible. If Coach was using this forum for storytelling, then any harm resulting from the telling of tales could most definitely be construed as deliberate. In reading his thread, I struggled with whether recovery, plan A, plan b, 180 plan, and MB was worth it. Fortunately for my family, I came upon my "truths" of my own volition, albeit his thread. However, if he deliberately fabricated the whole thing, I do resent that I was forced to come to my conclusions with his fabricated "bitterantments" (my word) running through my head. It is my genuine hope that there have been no "casualities of infidelity" based on the reading and following of examples within Coach's thread.
In conclusion, you cannot fully understand what
I went through, so for you to belittle my feelings in defense of Coach’s feelings is hypocritical, especially since that is exactly what you are so vehemently opposed to. [/color]
I was at a critical time in my marriage and needed support and advice, not to be entertained.
-Mr. Wondering
I didn't find his story entertaining. It was disturbing. Just like everyone's story on here.
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]
Again, it is still my opinion that his story was, most likely fabricated or embellished greatly for literary design. However, I qualified my statements with an “If” from the very beginning. I, again maintain, that IF it was a fabricated story written for entertainment purposes then it didn’t belong here, posted as a fact. I, and many others I am sure, come here to read about how MB principles are practically applied in real life situations and to learn of the result of those applications. Your "knock" of my above quote is, quite simply, illogical. For instance, “Flowers in the Attic” was a disturbing and fictional book, but people were aware of it being fiction and read it to be entertained. On the other hand, the movie, “Schindler’s List” was a disturbing true story adapted for entertainment purposes. I went to see it to be entertained AND to become more educated. I went into that movie with the understanding that it was fact. Later, had I have found out that the producers of that film lied regarding it's factuality, I would have been annoyed to say the least. I further believe that if the producers had have done this, then they would have been guilty of commiting a community disservice. Facts are facts and stories are stories, the human brain processes and stores each accordingly. Conflict, as I'm sure you know, is created when something is presented as one thing and then turns out to be another. Do you, however, understand what the human psyche does with conflict? It gobbles it up, and then spits it out in the form of anxiety. Just what a BS needs, more anxiety. I did not come here to read a fake story under the ruse of legitimacy; and, I contend if it was fake, it was damaging to me and my state of mind at that time. However, if it wasn’t fake, then it was just a kernel of history in someone else’s life which I internalized and battled with. I concede this is a difficult point to make. Damaging if fake, not damaging if true, but that’s the way I see it, nonetheless.
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Even if completely true, his story distracted me from obtaining the true marriage builders principles I needed to locate and apply.
-Mr. Wondering
so... by reading coach's thread, you were completely unable to click any links to MB principles and information that can be found all over the place here??
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]This is perhaps my most difficult statement to defend, and also the last statement that I added. But, it is my opinion, that Coach purposely used writing techniques to "hook" his readership. His story asked no questions, discussed no MB principles and rarely had any dialogue. It was simply, his blog, which as Lemonman just pointed out, distracted the newcomers from receiving the help this board was intended to provide (IMO). I did read all over the board, but how many hours, minutes, seconds did I waste reading his prolonged story? Way to many, I can assure you. When I first found myself here, at Marriage Builders, I didn’t recognize reading Coach's thread as a waste of my time. It is only in being here awhile and becoming a pretty regular poster, that I have come to understand and appreciate the greatness of this community, which includes you and frozen, btw. It is my wish that I had understood and internalized the concepts set forth by this site more quickly, perhaps then I could cut short the misery that infidelity caused my family.[/color]
Around D-Day every second counts and I wasted quite a few seconds on his thread.
-Mr. Wondering
then it is your responsibility to determine you think his story and advice is not helping you and move on. That is pretty much the theory behind a free access forum.
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]Granted, but that does not mean I cannot have an opinion. You state yours rather freely. But as a newbie at the time I had to make that determination "on the fly" in the middle of the chaos that was my life then. I am a reasonable, logical, somewhat stoic man today, but the thought/possibility that Coach made this thread up irritated me to no end at that time. His thread popping up again was a trigger for me. I don’t believe that I have too many of those left, but apparently this remains one for me. As these are my feelings, you cannot deny them. As someone who posts on regular basis at the present, I am trying to learn to avoid these type arguments, as they are usually unproductive, especially when you know that your reader just doesn't get it anyway. I can already envision your splicing this post down to quotes and taking every piece of it out of context, as this seems to be your habit. I should have listened to Mrs. Wondering and just not have posted here. You can bet that I will take what Lemonman said in his previous post as advice, and avoid posting to you in the future to avoid the unintentional conflict that my doing so would likely cause.[/color]
From what I recall Coach said he'd be back to prove it. I am still waiting.
-Mr. Wondering
prove it? because he is required to satisfy your burden of proof? What a load of crap.
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]I didn’t ask or require him to prove anything. HE said that he would be back with, at least, wedding pictures, and thus my stated hope that he lives up to his words speaks for itself. Your inappropriate, unjustified and uncouth berating of me is the only "load of crap" that is plainly visible here.[/color]
Sir, we all have problems here.
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]Based upon your ability to jump to conclusions, make inferences where nothing wrong was so implied, and attack others, I can surmise that your problems may be a little bigger than mine, and for that I am truly sorry. If your "M.O." is to create conflict where none exists, then you should speak with your counselor about this tendency. I am simply amazed at the audacity of your disrespectful judgments regarding me, under the guise of lecturing me for disrespectful judgments. Especially, where none exist. We are both in recovery so maybe some insight into this aspect of your personality and communication skill set will assist you in becoming a better husband and communicator. We are 4 individuals still here, helping others, committed to MB. Our energies should not be directed at prolonged attacks on one another, and Patriot, you have a history of instigating this type of discord. What is it about you? This is not a debate, your post was clearly designed to offend me as though you are superior in your thinking and humanity. I just don't get it. I don't particularly care, but I still just don't get it.[/color]
None of them attributable to coach's story. HE didn't cheat on you. He told his story. And now, due to his 'warm' send off, he doesn't post anymore. He gave lots of people really good advice. Some folks sang his praises.
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]Again, I said “If” he fabricated his story. I don’t know Coach from Adam, if he lied, then I’m ticked off (as you should/would be since you ran around with a loaded chicken mistakenly "defending" him), if not then I apologize for each and every disrespectful judgement or lovebuster that I am legitimately responsible for. I state this, of course, under the presumption that Coach (not you), wants or needs my apology. [/color]
Now he is a ghost and no one has heard from him. He might have been in real, horrid, emotional pain. And the community further destroyed him.
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]In the history of the internet nobody has ever been “destroyed” by anybody on a discussion board. I suggest that you are, again, ranking Coach’s feelings above mine. I am not placing my feelings or opinions above those of any other person here. I am just stating them. Take them as you may.[/color]
Not an uncommon theme around here, unfortunately.
-Patriot92
[color:"red"] If you are indicting yourself with this statement, then I share your sentiment, and concur.[/color]
What a farce. Coach.... if you happen to read this. Wow, I am sorry for the ridicule you had to deal with. I hope you have found a better place for yourself. And a calmer situation in your life.
-Patriot92
[color:"red"]Ridicule?????? Farce????? I did not ridicule Coach and my
feelings are not ludacris. The only absurdity that I see, is your post. The last time that I checked, Coach is a grown man, (or at least that is what he claimed to be-don't know for sure, do we?) and this is an open forum. People come and go as they choose. Just because Coach gave you a few "props" in his very last post did not mean that he was assigning you the duty of personal guard dog, in charge of him. I can assure you that Coach does not need protection from me. I live 1200 miles away from him, and am a very peaceful man. So at ease, Sir.
[/color]
[color:"red"]
A wise someone around here once said: “No amount of screaming and insulting is going to change one's views. In fact, I submit, for your approval (twilight zone joke there), that the more you scream and yell your opinion, the less you are heard and respected.”
Who was that someone? Sound familiar? Oh yeah, it was you, on a thread long ago.
Frozen – I believe you misread your husband's post. Patriot did in fact single me out. He twisted the words of my entire post line by line and illogically created his own crisis. Nobody else's quotes were brought in. My quotes weren't examples they were utilized for direct attacks on me. He certainly used the word “you” an awful lot. I’m sorry about the death in his family and that everybody seems to be having a bad day. All I want to do here is to take a stand against the apparent bully on the block where my wife and I are concerned. Maybe you're too close to the forest to see the trees, but my post yesterday did not, by any implication or open interpretation, unjustly attack Coach. Many here, legitimately question his story. With all due respect Frozen, it is my opinion that Patriot's post was not one worthy of your respect. He wasn't justly sticking up for anything except his own agenda (creating conflict, taking the unpopular opinion whatever you want to call it). I think that you should, perhaps take away his posting priveleges or at least stop him from trying to wordsmith his way out of situations of his own making. Just Kidding, seriously, I am just kidding on this.
Now, finally, why don't we just let this thread die. If Coach is ever to come back, perhaps it would be best for all involved, if he justed started a new thread. Though I do not understand your unjustified attack on me, I apologize for upsetting you so. If you feel you must have the last word and wish to attempt to justify your behavior or take me apart line by line then I propose that we take this off the board. You may email me directly at the address below. I hope that we do not have to further distract people that seriously need help here, with nonsense such as this.
Mr. Wondering[/color]
[color:"blue"]
the_wonderings@yahoo.com[/color]
