The following is a copy of Verveine's post on Gramn's thread for separate comment by the boards:


Gramn,

Sorry if my post took on a life of its own, therefore taking away from your problem. I just thought I should flesh out some background for you, so you would see where I was coming from. I understand what you're saying about revenge and why you think your actions were not motivated by revenge. You say that if you'd wanted revenge you, too, would have slept with someone. That rings hollow because it's pretty clear that your WS would not have cared about that. She already has a new guy. I was just trying to express to you what might have made a difference to me when I was having a PA. There are probably some things (this is all said on hindsight, of course) that my ex could have done that might have made me think twice at the time. One of the things he did that was counterproductive: he informed all of my friends of what I was planning to do (divorce him) and tried to get them on his side by attempting to portray me as having lost my marbles. My friends listened to him, of course, but were angry that he tried to co-opt them. I was angry at that, too. Now, many years later, I understand better what he was trying to do, but at the time it made me really angry and made me even more determined to go through with my plan to leave him. As a woman who has been in your wife's shoes, I'm just trying to help you understand that there are certain actions on your part which are more conducive to bringing her back to you, and others which are guaranteed to keep her away! If you can show understanding about how much pain she must be going through (that's hard, I know, because you are suffering as well), she'll be touched by how sensitive you are and might think twice about getting hitched to some guy who may or may not provide her with what you have to give. Plus, there's a small child involved as well, which counts for a lot. If she feels you are still sneaking around spying on her and are rallying the troops against her, you'll just be backing her into a corner and forcing her into something she may not even still want at this point.
In my case, I really lucked out, but I guess that's pretty rare. In your case, though, it's probable that your WS isn't really sure about what she wants, and she might just be yearning --although she probably wouldn't admit it-- to have her family back again. You need to leave her an opening and it will probably require one of the greatest sacrifices you've ever made: swallow your husbandly pride and sincerely hope that you can both work things out together.
I am not by nature a sneaking around person, which is why I told my ex about the PA a few days after it started. I don't know if it made it any better for him, but I know that it would be more devastating to me to discover my spouse had been sneaking around for months without me knowing. He wanted me to stay in the marriage. The groundwork for our divorce had been laid for years before and we were probably both unaware of how much so. The PA was just an excuse and a way out: it wasn't the cause as so many of you guys seem to think. If it hadn't been for the OM, I'm not sure I would have had the courage to leave, but I really needed to. The more hindsight I have, the more I realize I needed to do that.

I guess my post touched a cord, mostly with the guys it seems. I am a woman, but of course that's hard to prove on chatboards. One of you misogynous guys says I couldn't be a woman because a woman wouldn't divorce her husband because of lack of sex... Oh yeah? Well, I guess I was the exception then. Another one claims the post is too slick and well-written. There is such a thing as postgraduate education...
Someone else says that if I was so happy, why was I looking through these posts. Well, that is a good question. Partly, I think, because I'm still trying to understand what happened to my first marriage, because even though I feel I did the right thing, it's always wise to understand what went wrong so one can make improvements and secure the future. I also want to help my kids avoid the same mistakes I made. Being happy in a second marriage doesn't mean one doesn't regret mistakes the first time. All the crap about honor, though, is for you military guys out there, yada, yadda, yadda..

The stuff about Christopher Reeve makes me think it was written by a woman, since it was so irrational and irrelevant. We're talking about a man and a woman who were married, and then the man became helpless involuntarily. Obviously, one doesn't leave someone who did not choose to become helpless.

For all you guys out there: one of the main reasons I left my first husband was because his (male) cousin pointed out to me --very accurately, I thought--: why would you stay married to a man for 22 years who could never get it together enough to take care of your needs??? Right, I said. I stuck it out with this loser for 22 years while he ignored those needs. He was not helpless, I might add. He was totally able to help himself get well, but he choose not to: big difference. Ironically, my present husband takes his responsibilities in this area very seriously. He promised me he would before we got married, and he has kept his promise.

It really does gall me when people think they know so much and take on sanctimonious airs. Who are you, mortar, some religious fanatic or a minister who thinks he can preach salvation to people? Judging by the length and frequency of your posts, I'd say that you don't spend much time with a spouse of your own.

Gramn, I agree with everyone else: you are very brave and are going through a tough time, but pain is what eventually teaches us the best lessons, and it will make you a better person in the end no matter what. Because of what I went through our family has been strengthened tenfold and both my husband and I are very blessed to have close relationships with all of our kids. We already have several wonderful sons and daughter-in-laws, as well as a couple of grandchildren. I pray that you find the strength and the love you need to get you through this difficult trial: you'll need all of it.

In keeping with MB principles perhaps along with some 2 x 4's, a few FWW can chime in here and help Verveine address her issues and concerns. Again, assuming she is who she says she is.

Mr. WWWondering

Verveine,

I thought about it for a little while and decided that I would respond. Much of what you said in your post was a personal attack against me, where I had just posted what research, the Bible, etc have shown about affairs, children of divorce, etc. So, in order to clear a few things up without throwing too much mud, let me begin...

Verve, do you know how many WSs got out and have an affair but are upset when the BS goes out and has their own? By what I have seen and read, most of them do. Most people that have affairs havent lost all love for their spouse, nor is that spouse not meeting some needs. Most WSs realize once the BS leaves and finds someone else, that the needs they were meeting may not be met again, at least not by them. So, while a revenge affair is NEVER right...the reason for the revenge affair is grounded in the fact that most WSs do care if their spouse cheats on them.

Okay, first of all, exposure is good. But exposure is not trying to get people on your side. It is to shine the light of day on the affair. If your ex was trying to get people on his side, then that was wrong. And it was counterproductive as you said. If he had just informed them of your actions, then that would have been good, though. As with Gramn. He didnt try to get the people at the Y or his wife's friends or anyone else on his side. He just informed them that his wife was having an affair, that he loved her and was trying to make the marriage succeed. In this way, the affair was out in the open, the WS couldnt lie about it nor lie about her husband's intentions to anyone. It put what his wife was doing into a new light for everyone around her.

Oh, this is absolutely true. And every FWS on here has said that the things Dr. Harley outlines is exactly what was needed to bring them out of the fog. That is why if your husband could have done these things and got to understand the dynamics of marriage, it is doubtful you would be married to the man you are today.

Good point, and Gramn has been doing this. That is what Plan A is all about.

Children involved are always a help because of the ties to the parents. One of the first things Steve Harley said to me was that my kids would be one of my marriage's biggest assets for reconciliation.

Well, affair intelligence gathering is ALWAYS warranted and ALWAYS helpful. Even if it makes her mad. Second, as I said above, Gramn isnt rallying anyone against her. He stated the facts to those around them. Those people have made up their minds about his wife's affair (most have done so correctly, I might add). If he was trying to rally troops, he would get a 2x4 here!

Extremely. So rare that it isnt worth following your example because it just almost never happens.

This is absolutely true. She has shown all the signs of the standard WW.

And he has done this. He swallowed his pride by not bashing Y-Guys head in, and throwing his wife out on her butt and divorcing her. He has stood by while she has said hateful things, and continued to say "I love you, I want us to work things out." So, there is no doubt that Gramn has put his pride behind him and concentrated on defending his wife and his family. Defending them from this predator. And even defending them from his wife.

HHhmmm. I'll leave this one for MelodyLane and Pep.

So you were honorable in your dishonor??? OOppps...like I said, I'll let Melody and Pep address this.

Probably true.

Exactly true. And no one on here thinks the affair is the cause for the demise of the marriage. We know there were conditions that led up to it. Conditions that BOTH spouses were responsible for. The affair??? That is 100% the responsibility of the WS, though. EVERYTIME!

Oh I agree that the OM helped you out the door. But I know God would disagree with you that you needed to do this (affair and/or divorce). But I will get to that in a moment.

Actaully, I bet the ladies on here, especially the FWWs will have more issue with what you have said then any of the guys.

I never said you werent. Others doubted though. You'll have to wait for them to respond to this.

Name calling. Not conducive to getting your point across.

Maybe. But last I checked, lack of sex wasnt a reason for divorce i nthe law, nor was it a reason for divorce in the Bible. So, on all counts, your reason for divorce was nto a good one.

I did wrong, but I felt I did the right thing. Entitlement seeps from this part of your thread.

And they will need help. Read the studies of divorce and their effects on kids. Even on grown kids. It aint pretty. Divorce hamstrings kids everytime. Everytime. Some cope. Some do as best they can under the circumstances. But they will NEVER be who they could have been. All because their parents couldnt get it right. And that failure falls squarely on you and your ex. I dont say that to be mean. I say it because it was one of the driving motivators for me to save my marriage and to help lead my wife back from the destruction she was doing to herself, me and our kids.

So, honor isnt for you? You dont want to be an honorable woman. A person that will do right, even when people arent looking? If you are a Christian, you dont want to be a woman after God's own heart? You dont want to be an example for your children on what a Godly, honorable woman looks like? Honor is just for the military??? Puullleease.

Thought you had post graduate education. Then you would know the relevence of the Christopher Reeve story.

So, you do have boundaries. That is good. But, you vowed to be ther not only in the sickness/health deal, but also goodtimes and bad. Bad times can be when your husband isnt meeting your needs. That is where the boundary should have been. I am NOT excusing your ex for being a horrible husband. If he were here, he would get plenty of 2x4s from the group. But, the vow you both took meant that you do the things you promised, irrespective of whether or not your spouse does them. No matter what the reason. If it is a coma. Or the insensitivity of the spouse not meeting your needs. It does not matter. Your word is your word. And Verve, you broke your word...to your ex and to God. You cant get around that.

Again, your ex could have and probably should have had the award for the world's worst husband. And we know that is painful and not right. I am not insensitive to the pain and loneliness that brings. But God does give you a way to deal with that man. shoot, I cant remember their names right now, but their was a wife in the Bible that had this exact problem. She was married to a fool, it says. But she stuck by him anyway, because it was more important to her to follow the Lord. Because of her obedience, God decided that her husband just wasnt going to get it together...and struck him dead. And the wife ended up married to the king. When you follow Him, He takes care of you and your needs.

I hope so. So far, by your actions in your first marriage, as well as your attitude here, your current husband had best meet your needs. Because if he slacked off and stopped doing so, he can be replaced...right?


Now, this is the part I wanted to get to. Verve, if you bother to sit down and read my threads and my situation, you will know that I am neither sanctimonious, nor a fanatic. Most of the atheists on here are my friends. We disagree on some things. But I have never been confrontational nor condescending to them...nor them to me. You, on the otherhand, are a different story.

Everyone knows my story on here and knows my relationship with my wife. They know my dedication to her and my children and that my life is with them everyday. So, I will not even respond to your personal attack about me not spending time with my wife.

On knowing so much. Let me take this easy. First, I have studied. I too have a post graduate degree. I have studied and continue to study Scripture. I have studied and continue to study about affairs, marriage, divorce, children, etc. Have I been wrong before? Sure. Have I not had an answer? Sure. I have had my times on here where others have come to my side and provided me with the information I needed. Does that make them all knowing? Nope. But they did know more than me at the time. Shoot, I still learn things on here everyday. I still learn from the Lord everyday.

I am nto a preacher. But I do follow Jesus Christ. And because of that, I will speak the truth. If you or anyone else chose to ignore it or think it isnt the truth, that is your free will. I dont force anyone to accept what I say, or what the Bible says. Look, I dont need to defend God. He is big enough to do that all by Himself. All I do is repeat what He has said. And then leave it up to you and Him to work things out.

Look at the post from 2Long right after my main post about you on Gramn's thread. He is one of my longest friends on here. He is not a Christian. And even he noticed that my post to Gramn did not reference the Bible (although the truthes in what I wrote are always based on God's word). I didnt say "God said this, God said that." I just spoke to what was going on and what should be going on. And what I wrote was logical, even to atheists. It was rational, even to a non-Christian. But somehow you got out of my post that I was preaching. I did mention God once in that post, but it was a reference to Gramn's relationship to the Lord and that he is putting God first before his own wants and needs. Before his own pride.

Verve, since you have accused me of preaching, then let me let you in on a little secret here. If you are a Christian, then you are waaaaayyy out of line with the will of God. You were out of line with your affair. You were out of line with your divorce. And you were out of line with your remarriage. God only allows divorce for one reason...marital unfaithfulness. Period. Not because you werent getting any. Not because your needs werent being met. Not because of finances.God would only bless you in divorce if your husband had cheated on you. And guess what? God doesnt change with the times. He even says in Malachi "I never change." He also says in that same book, that He HATES divorce. He hates it. He despises it. This is what He has said.

Now, if you chose not to listen to that, then you do so at your own peril, because God will nto be mocked. David in the Bible, cheated with Bathsheeba. He wanted to marry her, so he had her husband killed. God took David and Bathsheeba's child because of that. God always will seek payment for sin. And that was a high price to pay, wasnt it...for their selfishness??

I have a coupel that are good friends of mine. It is his first marriage, her second. She cheated on her first husband, but then once exposed, wanted to reconcile. But he didnt want her back after her cheating and threw her to the curb. She was devastated. But God did accept the divorce intiated by her ex because he had grounds.

Although she has a wonderful marriage now and had two more kids with her new husband, she still has issues because of her first marriage. There were penalties that came from her cheating on her husband. Penalties she will live with the rest of her life. Her children from her first marriage are paying also.

Verve, I do not know how or what God will use as His will in punishing your sin, but I know if it hasnt come already...then it will. While you regret certain things, you still say that your sin of adultery and sin of divorce was right. And God will not accept an unrepentent, rebellious person. And because this is so serious, I pray today that He does whatever it takes, and I do mean whatever it takes, to get thru to you and to bring you close to Him and back into His will.

I do hope and pray for the best for you Verve. But most of all, I pray that you find Him and all that He wants for you. That you someday see the truth of what has happened and go to Him in sorrow, asking forgiveness.

There are many FWWs on here that have gotten to that point. Dorry comes to mind as the most recent FWW to have realized where things took her and how far she had fallen. You would do well to talk to her.

Good luck. And if you want to discuss this further, that is fine. If you want to engage in personal attacks, well...I have better things to do like spending the evening with my wife! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

In His arms.

For the record, I am a woman.

What you are saying here is....

In order to do something for yourself, you "needed" to lower your standards, committ adultery, dishonor your vows, step over your ethics, dismiss your integrity ... so you could find "courage" to leave your marriage.

Is that correct?

I am trying to figure out if you miss those things about your character that you tossed away to find "courage".

Wouldn't it be more courageous to leave the marriage without so much sacrifice of the better parts of yourself?

You needed an adultery partner, a MAN, to give yourself permission to do something you feel was long overdue.

Can you see what might be wrong with this?

Wouldn't it be more honest of you to own just how weak and unethical it was to choose adultery as a means to solve your marriage problems?

Don't you secretly yearn for the integrity you hacked off in order to make this humongous justification?

Verve,

My husband has been posting to you, in fact, is the one who created this thread for you. Also, Gramn is the first one on this board that I ever posted to(about 10 days out of an affair of my own). Those are two of the reasons I am now choosing to post to you, in essence, I suppose that now "I have a dog in this fight". When I first posted to Gramn I was still so very "foggy" myself and yet I could see how very much Gramn wanted his marriage and that, in turn, helped me see the same in my husband. In other words, Gramn helped me, so I wanted to do the same for him. That is what these boards are for. The ideas set forth in your posts are so counterproductive to Gramn's situation that it's hard for me to understand why you have even bothered...in other words, you don't seem to "have a dog in this fight". All you are doing is telling him that what he is doing is wrong, and essentially sticking up for his wife...are you kidding me? To coin another popular southern expression, "that dog just don't hunt"!

I am a FWW, and as my husband and MM have told you it is we wayward ones that will perhaps have the biggest beefs with your arguments. They are right, on more levels that I care to address, others may offer you more on why. You seem to be coming at this situation in the biggest fog that I've ever seen. I understand it though, the "fog" is what makes all us WSes able to justify and rationalize behavior that is beyond reproach. It doesn't excuse your behavior here, but it does explain it.

I pray that you will continue reading here and get whatever help that you are seeking. I can promise you that a truly happily married person would never seek out the infidelity boards and then go on attack. If you are as happy in your marriage as you say, then you should be pro marriage and rooting Gramn on. This board utilizes MB principles that have been proven time and again to work. If you don't agree with these principles, then that's fine, but to post against them on a website dedicated to them is a battle that you can't win. As an educated woman, I assume that you will see the futility in this. Your posts bring to my mind a favorite signature line of mine by another poster on this site (Lemonman), "Some people just don't get it, they don't get that they don't get it.". If your fog ever lifts, I hope that you someday come back and read your own posts and see just how much you aren't getting it yet.

Gramn is fighting the "good fight" here, whether you choose to believe it or not. He is trying hard to uphold his end of marital vows, and though it may anger you, God is on his side in this. I urge you to leave him alone, honestly, your type of "help" is not needed by him. While I know that God is with Gramn in every step of his struggle to do the right thing, I also know that Satan is very much alive in this world and will do whatever he can to knock Gramn off his course. I am not name calling here, and I don't think that you even realize that you are being used in this way, but I do believe that any advice given that does not fall in line with God's plan is Satan inspired, as are affairs, btw. Temptation is a very powerful tool that Satan employs.

I pray for you to get the peace it seems that you are being convicted to seek, and I also pray that you do no harm to others in your quest. We do welcome your posts so long as they are directed at helping you in your utilization of principles outlined on this site. If that is not what you are seeking, then I think it's best if we choose to ignore the damaging philosophies that you are trying to impart.

Mrs. WWWondering

Still no replies from Verviere... Interesting...

Gramn,

I meant no offense by asking Verveine to leave your thread alone. I had originally posted "correct me if I'm wrong" but edited it. It's your thread and I apologize if I over stepped my boundries. I just feel a little guilty and protective of you because you are still going through this whole thing when in the meantime I am going down the road to recovery. I felt Verveine's posts were tinged with defeatedness and beleived that her posts would prey upon the feelings of hopelessness and insecurity I certainly felt in the days after D-Day but before NC and recovery. I should have indicated more confidence in you.

Also, I still have doubts Verveine is for real. Is she Y-guy, Y-guys mother, Y-guys wife or mother in law? I also thought separating her post here would allow the boards to pursue/counsel/challenge her more effectively and at greater length without muddling up your thread with her real or fake issues. (Mortarman exceeded my expectations).

I know you're here...nobody posts that incitefull of a post and doesn't come back to see who's cages she's rattled. Verveine - you can at least attempt to put Gramn and everyone else at ease by revealling yourself somewhat. What state/city do you live in? what degree's do you have? Where did you go to college? Maybe others have a better way for you to confirm you aren't Y-guy or related to this matter in any way. Pem2235 or 45 thought my wife was her WH's OM and she went out of her way to prove otherwise and ease Pem's mind ...I have always maintained I could be wrong about you...I was just speculating who you are....help us out here.

My wife thinks I am a conspiracy theorist. Reminds me of a really old Bod Dylan song I think called the John Birch society wherein the following lyrics can be found:

Ran out of things to investigate
so I started investigating myself...
sure hope I don't find nothin'

Mr. Wondering

I don't know who it could be. (A few lies thrown in to their story could easilly throw people off of their trail)

BUT, I have only told OMW about this forum, so that limits my list of suspects...

Of course, I could be wrong too...