Have been snooping again.......WH had mentioned a couple of MC sessions back that he had a recorded message from OW about her fears of being killed by her H. I have not been able to find the cassette until this morning. He had also mentioned in an old letter that I found(from a couple of weeks back) that what kept him going were some of her messages that he had recorded.

I found the tape and the messages are old. I believe he might be listening to them as his way of holding onto the A since he is in NC.

What should I do?? Should I say nothing, confiscate them & say nothing, confiscate them & confront or just confront & let him continue to hold onto them???

He comes home soon so I need adivice pronto!

Thanks,

Kim
D-Day May 14th
Married 13 years
DS, age 5
NC stage

Kim, I would just put them back for now and make copies later. [you may need this as evidence] You might mention to him that you know about them and tell him that it hurts you very much that he as them. Ask him why is he keeping them.

Have you listened to them?

Yep, I listened to them. The first ones are at least 3 weeks old. He labeled the cassette as "all messages" so I believe this is the only one. It is a mini-cassette player. Her voice telling him how much she misses him & she is sorry he is having a bad night. "I love you" etc. Call me when you can......He has two or three that are like that.

The last one is her saying how scared she is, talks about how WH asks her why she doesn't file restraining order and that OW doesn't think a piece of paper will keep her from being killed. Said she had talked to her attorney.

Should I just wait & bring this up in MC today??

Thanks MelodyLane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kim

Do you think he is still taping?

It just ocurred to me that maybe you shouldn't say anything yet in case he is still taping. That is very strange that he would tape their calls. How would he be taping them and from where?


This might be something her husband should also listen to.

I agree with Mel not to bring this up for awhile....in case he is still taping...

Read your messages before he got home & I didn't bring it up. He recorded messages off of his cell or work phone that she had left him. The last message he has on there is one that he brought up in one of our MC sessions. It was the session after I had left the exposure letter so now that I'm thinking about it I believe the messages are older than I think. I believe that they might be 4 weeks or older.....I can't remember exactly when I dropped off that letter.

I don't believe he is still taping as it has been quite some time that OW's cell calls have been montitored by her H. Today in MC my H said there has been NC and he would tell me when or if there was. He brought up the NC letter, I didn't try to discuss it much just said that I knew he wasn't able to write one. That he would be able to write one when he was committed to the M and when he had given up the A.(Thanks ML for that line).

I was able to scoot out this morning & purchase another recorder so I was able to record part of the messages onto another cassestte before H got home. He came home while I was doing it so I have one more message to tape. I thought I should go ahead and do that in case he hid the tape -

I believe he taped her calls so he could ride around & listen to her profess her love to him. YUK. Now I have heard her voice saying those words to him. Makes me sick to my stomach. The last message was taped b/c it says how scared she is & how she thinks she is going to be dead soon. I believe WH taped that so if something terrible did happen he would have proof to show that she was concerned for her life(since she won't report any of the "beatings" to the police).

Today's MC was o.k. WH said that he knew I didn't think we were making progress. WH said he that we had been. MC was helpful & described the process of rebuilding - compared it to taking steps on a ladder and that I might be trying to take bigger steps than he was. She also went into what would probably happen if WH couldn't really commit to the M, that most likely we would sep. and end up with a D. UH OH THE D WORD. I said that wasn't what I wanted. She said I know, but there is just so much pain a person can take. I do think that it might have been an eye-opener for WH to see where things might be a year from now if things didn't change. MC said that in her experience OW wasn't going to leave her H. That she would have already done it if she was going to.

Kim

Does your H think the OW is going to leave her H for him?

Also, I would keep that tape in your back pocket and if you find out the affair is still ongoing, which I believe it is, then I would give the OWH a copy. He deserves to have a copy of what his own W is saying to her boyfriend about him. I hope that your H continues to tape any conversations he has because it could be very powerful ammunition that would prevent her from denying an affair to her H.

Do you feel like this MC is pro-marriage?

Stay watchful, Kimberly. Continue to snoop.

There is no legitimate reason for him to not be willing to write the NC letter, IMHO.

Even if there is NC, he is not willing to CLOSE THE DOOR on a R with her. Seems like he is trying to keep that option open. Waiting and wanting for her to leave her H?

Make your backup tape and then 'sssttreetch' out his copy. This would make the tape seem worn and useless. Then watch how he reacts.

It is true that the WS or OP love to hear the other one pine for them. Makes them in a sick sense feel needed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

In your next MC session ask if NC is ok if reminiscing is allowed. Then ask the MC to ask the Xws if reminiscing is something he maybe doing. Watch his reaction and you will have your answer.

In our case the OW taped calls and listened to them over and over. I read her e-mails to that effect. In fact when they were planning their one vacation together she said she would bring her e-mails and read them to him in the car during their ride to Yosemite. YUCK!!! Imagine them not having enough conversation that they have to rehash dirty e-mails. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Stupid aliens. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Also, Orchid's suggestion will give you valuable info. about the MC.

You will get to see what the MC thinks about all of this...

I'm concerned that the MC may not have had much real experience helping couples rebuild after an A...

Just have a minute or two to post, but will be back on later -

MelodyLane - I looked at the cover of the tape & it is dated 8/2. This was the day my WH said his intentions were to work on our marriage and we had just gotten back from our trip. It was also the day after OWH stopped by our house. He captured the autmated voice mail as he was recording stated that the message was archived 10 days ago. So I'm thinking this puts it somewhere in the middle of July?? I have not found any other tapes & it the cover on the tape also is written as "all recorded messages". I don't think he intended for me to find this tape at all, but he has left it on a shelf on his bedside table.

I know your concerns about a MC when she brings up the D word. This is the first time, she said if things don't begin to change she believes that will happen. WH likes her so far....Should I suggest another MC??

WH said that if he & I get D, then he would most likely just be alone.

Orchid: How do I stretch out his copy?? It is a mini-cassette tape...Do I take it out and kind of pull the tape out some??

I will ask the MC about reminiscing next week & see what happens. One thing that tape did is make me feel NO empathy whatsover for OW. One of her comments was "Well, the night didn't go the way I wanted, but it didn't go the way she wanted it too either."

Mimi - I think WH is still emotionally attached to OW for SURE. I don't believe he is having contact with her, but I am going to stay watchful. The MC did say in our last session that most BS would have been right out the door before this point. She said that I was truly an amazing person and that what I have done is very special. She made it a point to talk about me and build me up in front of WH. It felt pretty good. She went on for a little while about how myself and WH were not like most who end up name calling, yelling and pointing fingers.

Thanks all!

Kim

Kim, what is scary is that your marriage is very salvagable if the affair is ended and here she is talking about divorce. The affair is temporary, your H's addiction is temporary, yet she is talking about something very permanent, DIVORCE. That makes me think she does not have much experience with adultery and doesn't understand the dynamics of an affair. Divorce shouldn't be brought up as an alternative here. Most marriages that experience infidelity do not end up in divorce, btw.

I would tread cautiously here, Kim. Do you think she is any help at all? What is the purpose of your counseling?

Also, I do think that the OWH has a right to that tape. This is about his life, too, and he has right to know what is going on in it.

Maybe you can look and see if there is anything there that the tape could 'legitimately' snag on, then fall back behind the shelf leaving a little trail of ruined tape.

MelodeyLane - I have been thinking about your comments regarding the MC. I was not in good spirits on Friday(a lot having to do with the tape I found) and didn't have too much to say - she asked me how I was feeling & I responded that I didn't really know what to say. She said, "Well, how are you feeling?" I said that I didn't know how I was feeling at the moment. I think I presented to her that I was in a lot of pain & that I was a bit frustrated and impatient. I think that is why she brought up the D scenario. After she went through it, I did make a point to say that was NOT what I wanted.

Should I reiterate that to my WH, that I still want to work on our M regardless of what the MC said??

The MC went over in one session(maybe this one...) about how WH was addicted & explained how drug addicts got rid of their addiction - Cold Turkey.

Should I give the MC a call this week and make my stand stronger about my committment to the M & that I really don't want to discuss DIVORCE?

Even though the tape is of old messages you think I should play if for OWH? Since WH is in NC right now I would like to just hold onto it. I just don't think I could do that right now....I think WH would find out about it through the grapevine & that it would cause him to obsess over her sitch again as well as probably contact her.

Last night I didn't wait for WH to ask me if I wanted to do something together. Detached myself & did a few chores then sat down to work on DS's scrapbook. 1 minute into it he came in & asked me if I wanted to watch TV. I told him maybe later, I wanted to work on the scrapbook. We did watch TV together about 40 minutes later when I was done. We also had a decent day today & were able to do some recreational activities together at the park. So, I did good - no neediness or LB.

Not So - Great idea about the tape falling behind something, but it is still in it's holder.....

Kim

Kim, I would touch base with the OWH and ask how things are on his end. I would tell him about the tape and offer to give him a copy. If your H does find out about your call, then you will find out that he is still in contact with the OW. There is nothing wrong with you contacting the OWH, but there is something very wrong with him talking to the OW. If he does find out, he will have some 'splaining to do!

It is very good for your H and the OW to know that you are in contact and are comparing notes, which will make it much harder for them pull anything. Your job is to make things very difficult to them to carry on an affair. Just for the record, I don't think the affair is over; I think they have just gone deeper.

As far as your MC, I find it reassuring that she made the drug addict analogy, because that is right on and says that she probably does understand his mentality. Perhaps she was trying to wake your H up with some reality of what is to come if he doesn't end his affair? [which is a smart move, IMO]

p.s. what happened when the OWH came to see your H? Where did this happen?

I think that at this point if I let OWH know about the tape, WH would only find out from the "friend" who did not know they were having an A. WH said yesterday (b/c I brought this up as a concern at the end of the MC) that yes, the "friend" did tell him things about OW but the "friend" only knew that he was concerned as a friend. Then he went on to say that everybody at the office most likely knew and were talking behind his back due to the fact that OWH showed up there last week. So by now I am thinking that the "friend" knows.

OWH showed up in the middle of the night at the place of work & had a "talk" with WH. Told WH that if he didn't stop having contact with OW that the next conversation would not be pleasant.

I am not letting my guard down. I am still snooping and trying to think of all the ways that they could have gone deeper. He could still pass her notes & I wouldn't know. Boy, that sounds so childish.

I asked him again at the MC to let me know even when there might be an instance where she had to call him for a business call. WH agreed and said that there really is a rare instance where she would need to do that.

Thanks,

Kim

Kim, please see what I wrote above about contacting the OWH.

I would caution you about ever agreeing to tolerate any contact at all between them. In fact, that is a boundary that you probably should establish right from the get go.

Any contact AT ALL will prevent his withdrawal from the affair and will prevent the recovery of the marriage. Every time he is in contact with her puts him back to Day 1 of recovery and puts your marriage back to Day 1 of recovery. This is why Harley is ADAMANT that he quit his job or move to another state, if need be, in order to end contact. They should never ever, NEVER be in contact again. And you should not let him think for a second that you will settle for any contact. She should not contact him in a "rare" instance, she should NEVER contact him. NEVER. Even if he has to change jobs.

If she does contact him, he should hang up the phone and not take her call. PERIOD. And then you can inform the OWH that she is calling him.

In short, if he has to conduct any business with her, then he should be changing jobs. DO NOT settle for less, lest you will damn yourself to years more of this ******.

Dr Harley:

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html