.... take Low's dad along when I go appliance shopping

.... truth in advertising

.... you've got to fight for what you want

.... a lot of things in life are mis-labled

.... Low is a good storyteller

???? Did I guess correctly???? Is there a prize <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You are hilarious Pep and LowOrbit. Let's now debate whether Clinton cheated b/c he TECHNICALLY did not have intercourse. Just Kidding!

I reread A1 that you wondered about the needs b/c yours had not been met. She can't meet them unless she knows what they are. You both need to take the test and discuss it. It will give you hope. Steve had us do the test and write what it would look like if a partner met the needs. In other words, what would a partner do to meet these needs. Believe me, you have reason to hope.

I have a feeling that your W actually realized at some point that money doesn't buy happiness. I seriously doubt that she left but came back for money. I have a feeling that she left b/c of sexual immoral behavior on both peoples' part. However, she probably can't admit that she is just as responsible for the immoral behavior b/c she is too mad at him. Just a guess...........

You could be right...it could be that the sex stuff they were into got to be too much for her and she lost respect for him and herself...

Unless a1b2 is willing to explain any further we can't be of much help.

Heavens no! He's a notoriously bad haggler. I only remember this story because I was a little shocked by it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Sure...here's a cigar..oops! just saw the Clinton note... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Low

**snort** you win a cigar for that one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

bump

Just curious, when you said your wedding vows in front of the Judge, or Minister, or whatever, did you modify them from the 'traditional' vows to say that you'd forsake all others unless "we're on the outs"?

I think you'll find that the vast majority of this site believes that "seperated" is simply another state of being "married", and that the vast majority believe that having sex with a person other than your spouse while married is wrong, adultry, cheating, or whatever you want to call it.

So basically, as I see it, this is considered cheating by the vast majority here (and I would guess the majority of the masses). It's cheating by legal definition. It's cheating by moral/Religous definition. So what is the question and more importantly why does it matter to you?

a:

Hm... ...since I'm not religious can I represent the pulse of society on this thread?...

Sorry, silliness is my forte. It really does NOT matter whether it's a religious definition or a secular one. And morality predates religion by several tens of thousands of years (at least, probably more like hundreds of thousands) in my humble opinion.

In this si2ation, though, I think you and your W need 2 decide what you want your relationship 2 be, whether you stay married or not. If it's "okay" 2 have an intimate relationship with other women when she's not around (or for her 2 have them with other men), then that's an open marriage. You want that? Personally, I couldn't imagine living like that, but people do. If your spouse is unaware of the relationship, it's an affair, plain and simple.

Also, from your description, I'd be surprised if your W is NOT having/had an affair.

best,
-ol' 2long

Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5

But you don't know if I "get" anything, because I have never commented on your situation. I have only given you the proper definition of cheating, which for some strange reason, causes you great outrage. I have never commented on your specific situation at all.

Ok, here's your first lesson in MB...

You don't get to decide what she believes is infidelity. If she feels betrayed, then so be it. She feels 'cheated'. She may also have to accept that you feel betrayed as well.

Simply accept this and start doing the things you have to do to help her feel secure.

You are wasting everyone's time with this legalistic discussion. Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

BTW, I wouldn't call your marriage unconventional...what you've described sounds a bit tame compared with other very happy people that I know. If you accept that your marriage wasn't and isn't all that out of the ordinary, then you'll begin to understand that you have a lot of help out there to fix it...including MB.

Low

I'd rather you not use the 3rd person when referring to you and your wife. Hopefully you and your wife will come here together to get help and she will be willing to be less private in this anonymous atmosphere.

It is good that your wife values openness and honesty. I hope she doesn't have a double standard. It is very suspect that Washington DC was where she has been living which is where the OM moved.

Anyway, both of you will have to forgive the past and attempt to start to rebuild a better future marriage for yourselves. I hope you both can see that your marriage was compromised by some of the sexual choices you both made. You both have to take responsibility for the poor choices and love busters. Placing more blame on one or the other of you is probably counter productive.

I am glad your wife is open to the concepts that MB teaches.

The following is as far as I will go with the details of the sexual aspects of our marriage
That is pretty extreme detail for not willing to into detail.

She sees it as cheating period. I see it as being pushed so so so far that it isn't really cheating.
If she sees it that way, then that's the way she sees it. You cannot convince she is "wrong" about how she feels because feelings cannot be right or wrong.

She doesn't give me any credit for never cheating on her during the real marriage
As everyone has said, you have always been in a "real" marriage, therefore you cheated in the real marriage.

Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5

You can't apologize for going something which SHE feels hurt her, even though you don't think it was wrong?
Do you think it's her fault she hurts?

If you are driving down the road, doing the speed limit and paying attention and someone leaps out in front of you and gets hurt, you don't feel bad or help them out or apologize, even though it was not your fault at all?

I can do this...

Let's work with a less complex example...leaving the top off the toothpaste. If you were living alone, you could probably leave it off all the time and no one would care. Nothing is wrong and you don't feel guilty about it.

Now, you get married and you find that your wife is very irritated when you leave the top off the toothpaste.

So, you can see that there may not be anything really wrong with leaving the top off the toothpaste, but it bugs her when you do it.

The very fact that you have unintentionally done something that bothers her should be enough for you to apologize.

"Honey, I'm sorry. I never imagined how this would hurt you. Had I known, I wouldn't have done it. How can I help you feel more secure about us?"

Do you see?

If for no other reason, you will not engage in this behavior because you know it will hurt her.

Hurting your wife is wrong. That's what you're apologizing for.

Low

If you haven't already done so, read the concepts on the main site.

You may want to read about the Four Rules for a Successful Marriage. Here is a link to one of the rules:

The Rule of Protection

Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5

a1b2,

Marriage is a series of compromises. You may not feel guilt at all, or just not that guilty, however, you apparently value your marriage and want to make things work. The question then becomes..do you value your marriage or the opportunity to have another attempt a being the husband you wish you'd have been (the chance to overcome your regrets) enough to suck it up and show/feel regret and/or guilt, despite your really not having true remorse.

I can give an example. In 1992 I met my wife. We dated 4 months. December, 1992, I was in college in Atlanta and I was going home (Detroit) for Christmas break. I knew at that time I was going to break up with her I just didn't want to do it right before the holidays. I went home and went out with friends. Met a girl, went on a date and kissed her over the break. I came back to Atlanta in January and broke up with my wife. We were friends for maybe a month and a half then we got back together in maybe late February. The reason for the break up was really her Manic-Depressive Father (who was full blown manic at the time) and I wanted to get away from that situation. I never saw us getting back together at all and never anticipated being called out for may actions.

To this day, my wife calls me a cheater because of that instance. She has never forgotten it or let it go. Before, during and after her affair, that indescretion has been thrown in my face. I've given the technically it wasn't repsonses. I explained myself and offered many justifications till I'm blue in the face. I had considered our relationship OVER.

Problem is I can't change how she feels. I may have considered our relationship over but she didn't AT THAT TIME. Which was unfair. It was both technically cheating and cheating. Just because I didn't think I was going to get called out on it didn't make it O.K.. My inability to accept responsibility communicated to my wife that I didn't care about her feelings. I was just bullheaded and said it wasn't that bad or worse that she was wrong. Period. I minimized her as a person and later as my spouse...everytime I defended myself.

BTW, this is true despite the fact that my wife cheated on many a boyfriend over her years of dating. I used this excuse. But she didn't feel about them the way she felt about me. This controversy was about our relationship. I used to be an extremely non-emotional, logical guy. My wife's affair really open my eyes to the downside of such stoicism.

In conclusion, buck it up, be a man and accept responsibility for your actions. You'll be suprised by what life and marriage has to offer to you when you allow your true masculinity to shine through. Maybe (and I am hoping) true intimacy can only be achieved when you care more about how your wife feels than what you merely think.

Mr. Wondering

P.S. - I hope this sounds right. I'm not so good at this emotional stuff. My wife says my legal posts are just so much better.

Edited to add: I agree with ActDon'tReact on the other thread you posted under Just Found Out. Her hammering your infidelity may point to the fact she herself had an affair. Either it levels the playing field enabling her decision to come back to you and try again (which is good if acknowledge and honesty can be restored in your relationship) OR it gives her the ability to blame you for the eventual downfall of the marriage and she can save face with family and friends (as she presumes her infidelity will never be discovered).

Also, her affair after nearly 2 years may have run it's course and ended. Now she's single with child - time for her to get back on the money train. She may try with you but she'll be happy to blame you for the whole thing if it doesn't work out. She gets you back and the upper hand. The whole time you keep paying. Have your guard up a little but not compulsively as you apparently did when you were younger. BTW, this is more the compulsive conspiracy theorist side of me. I hope I'm wrong and you both live happily ever after.

a1:

"She sees it as cheating period. I see it as being pushed so so so far that it isn't really cheating."

Others have commented on the first statement, so I'll focus on the 2nd:

Q: How did she push you? Can you not make decisions for yourself?

-ol' 2long