Make sure to read my edit to my above post..Ha! Ha! Ha! You know how you are better able to sell something that you really believe in? Well, a lot of these folks have seen these principles move mountains in their lives, my husband and I included, so how can the zest with which we so fully embrace the philosophies set forth here be a wonder to you?

The Mrs.

Post deleted by a1b2c3d4e5

"So take down your fishin' pole and meet me at the fishin' hole"...the actual words from the Andy Griffith show tune...you must sing it out loud to get the full effect here Ha! The older I get, the geekier I become...

I do know what you mean about feeling that sometimes things can take on a bit of a cultish hue here...I've only felt that way when I was being "2 x 4ed", as you have been here...In fact on one of my old posts where I was trying to swim upstream, and pretty much being drowned by all the water that was getting splashed in my face, btw, I actually said something to the effect of "Do you people think that maybe just maybe people can actually be a little different and do things their own way and have it work out for the best?"...what's great about this site is that a few days later, I was actually able to see how "my way" was indeed detrimental to the goal I was/am trying to accomplish...this place acts as a great sounding board...also, my husband and I have been better able to deal with some of our own issues by being able to read the stories of others and discuss them in the third person before actually applying them in our own lives...

So young fisherman, be wise and let some of these folks teach you how to fish..maybe you'll never hunger again...whaddaya think?

I would be very interested to find out what changed you from a devout Christian to an Atheist...no judgement, just some intellectual (friendly) bantering perhaps...

Madame Wondering

Hey, Steak Sauce.... (A1)

Welcome to Marriage Builders! As you've seen this is quite the unique little community here. But, in spite of what you've seen that may seem peculiar, and perhaps a little cult-like, you will see there are more caring and well-intentioned people here than you might find in a year or more in "real life".

People don't come here for recreational purposes. Most end up here as the result of just having been dealt one of life's most difficult blows, infidelity. Most are in a state of complete shock, because adultery only happens to "others", not us. People come here full of dispair, many, as you noticed, viewing suicide as a possible "answer" to their problems. Many are so lost they are paralyzed, and unable to help even themselves. This website, and these forums have probaby saved a few lives, and allowed many more to rebuild marriages that truly are better than existed before the A became a part of their lives.

Without this website, and the kind and caring people here, I would not be married today. I would have chucked it all, and walked away. Not necessarily because because I wanted to, but because the uninformed way I was trying to get our marriage a second chance. Much of what is recommended is counter-intuitive to most people, and few have the instincts to do everything right. This site is what gave me the direction to attract my W into giving US a second chance.

Dr. Harley agrees that not all marriages can, or should be saved. However, his philosophy does stress that much, if not most, of the work should be on self-improvement, so that if the marriage does survive, great, but if it does not, you still have given it your best shot, completed the self improvement, and you move forward a better person, healed and without unfinished "baggage", much better equipped to have successful relationships in the future.

Read Dr. Harley's book, Surviving an Affair, and you will see how complete his philosophy is, regardless of the outcome of people's efforts.

Something obviously brought you to this site, and at the rate "newbies" are arriving, we can use all the help we can get. So with your leisure time, why don't you examine everything here closely, work on saving your own marriage (successfully we hope), then give us a hand helping other newbies coming on board.

Your wit and independent point of view could be most helpful.

Think about it.

Best wishes,
SD

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""I don't mean to offend but I do mean to make people think and not follow so blindly. I am looking for more people that can show me the way without all the extreme measures others are taking or suggesting.""

OK, where are Lemonman and Noodle when we need them???

Take it all with a grain of salt..we mean you no harm!!

Just be kind and loving to your wife when she moves in, say you are soooooo sorry..and MEAN IT!!

K

""Furthermore, the site pushes so much self sacrifice for the good of the marriage that I wonder if the marriages he saves are simply saved at the cost of personal happiness.""

OK, you must be Lemon in disguise, right??

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Yeah, Where is the good Dr.Lemonman...I'd buy tickets to see Lemon and Saucey(aka A1) go head to head if they ever disagreed...

Saucey(mind if I call you that?), I think that you would appreciate Lemonman's take on a lot of situations...you should give him a shout out...talk about a popular thread...Might just go down in MB's history...

Btw, my H and I discussed your situation at great length tonight and thought of some interesting theories(nothing negative)...hopefully I'll have time tomorrow to post to you, going to bed now as it is 2:25am here, YAWN!

Hey, how was The Skeleton Key? I too love going to movies by myself...you get more absorbed and the movie is more captivating that way...

Mrs. W

Ahhh, a1b2c3...
another sales blunder--you're counting revenue before the contract has been signed! "Wife moved back in 8/21/2005." Hmmmm, that's a few days away, and there's probably going to be a lot of back and forth in that time. You're certain you've eliminated all the "dealbreakers," right? As a salesperson, you know that you can't count on success until they actually show you the money.
Anyway, it IS an interesting thread, and I'm probably one of the only one's who voted "not cheating period." Again that's because I'm not looking at legal definitions, but at intent. (Veteran MBs will disagree, and they may be right.)
Hope you can generate as much positive buzz for your wife and you as you've generated with this group!

“””Just trying to figure out this group.”””

Then sorry to say, your focus is all wrong, you should be trying to figure out your marriage. But a little about “this group”, as you can see I’ve been on this site for over 4 years. The people here are black and white, young and old, rich and poor, wayward and betrayed. It’s actually a great cross section of America. We are all here with a common goal and that is to have a rewarding marriage and if that doesn’t work out then we help each other heal.

”””I like what I read on the site but the posts I read are very very scary. The state of mind of people in here is very interesting from a psych perspective but not sure if I have to be like the posters if I want to drink the Kool-Aid.”””

Here’s the funny thing, that someone is reading your post and saying the exact same thing about you. I don’t say that in a mean spirit it’s just that people are different and they place their beliefs and principles in different areas.

“””I am looking for more people that can show me the way without all the extreme measures others are taking or suggesting.”””

So you want an easy fix, in real life that doesn’t happen too often. There aren’t too many rewards without effort. What you view as extreme is not necessarily what others view as extreme. If you look at the core of this site or pretty much any other that has to do with marriage you’ll find communication is at the core of any happy relationship. Whether it’s the ability of one to communicate their emotional needs or properly express their emotions. That being said, I can also say that if you communicate with your wife the way that you’ve communicated on this site that there is some room for improvement there.

”””Weird slice of the population here.”””

I’m kind of perplexed by this statement. If by weird you mean a good cross section of Doctors, Lawyers, Factory Workers, Military Men and Women, Stay at Home Mom’s, and people with only months of marriage and people with over 40 years of marriage, then yes it is weird.

”””Been through two marriage counselors now and working on a third.”””

Why?

“””Remind I am also a declared atheist (another position most people don't feel comfortable in taking) this after I was a devote Christian for several years. I also believe that I may be wrong in my religious beliefs today and respect the beliefs around me.”””

There are actually a lot of atheist on this site and a lot of Christians along with a wiccan or two. But actually that you profess confusion about your religious beliefs is interesting. Kind of that whole chaos in the heart and chaos in the soul thing going on.

”””It is the following that scares me. It is their overwhelming loyalty that concerns me.”””

Why is that? If I found a cure for cancer and had a loyal following would that concern you? This, obviously is no where near that, as a matter of fact marriages that people come here trying to save quite often fail. Sometimes that’s because circumstances, sometimes it’s because people wouldn’t do what they needed. But let me let you in on a little secret. This ain’t all about saving a marriage, it actually has a lot to do with helping people heal.

”””the site pushes so much self sacrifice for the good of the marriage that I wonder if the marriages he saves are simply saved at the cost of personal happiness.”””

That’s actually a good observation. I’ve seen people do things I would never do in order to try to save the marriage, but for the most part these people misunderstood what they were being asked to do. That being said there is still sacrifice in saving a marriage, heck there is sacrifice in marriage. The point here is getting you and your spouse to the point where you both are selflessly meeting each others emotional needs. But, quite frankly, some marriages shouldn’t be saved.

”””The site ignores that 2nd marriages can be quit fulfilling as well.”””

Actually, it doesn’t. And it also doesn’t ignore the fact that 2nd marriages have a failure rate of about 50% greater than 1st marriages.

“””So far I love the teachings of the site, I simply feel they are too extreme and the users that cling to these principles are too extreme as well.”””

And that’s cool, that’s your opinion.

”””I find it mind boggling that there are suicidal on this site and that there are simply normal everyday people trying to prevent them from killing themselves. Yikes that is scary.”””

Would it be better if they died?

”””I see the compassion on the site. I see the love that others have for those afflicted.”””

There is tons of compassion here and I love that about it.

a1,

I usually don't post anymore, just read, but something about this thread peeked my curiosity. Maybe it's b/c my H went through almost the same thing, feeling-wise. Our timeline is no way near extensive as yours, we were only separated for 4 months, but he did sleep w/his OW after he moved out so in his mind, when he came home, he *technically* did not cheat. When he first came home, he didn't "love" me. As a matter of fact, he could find every reason he could think of of why he shouldn't be married to me. I loved him though. I loved him w/all my heart. I loved everything about him. Plus, we had a friendship for a lot longer than we had a marriage. I suspect that's the case w/you & your W. It seems that you two were friendly, otherwise you wouldn't have told her about this other relationship. And as a success story, I want to tell you that you can use that basis of friendship to get you to your ultimate goal of meeting each other's emotional needs.

I read through your timeline & I just have to mention this, how could you or your W meet each other's needs when you had other people meeting them for you? It sounds like this was quite exciting for you at the beginning but then stepped over the bounds after a while when she wanted to swing, and from how I read, you caved in to her request. I guess what I'm saying in a nutshell is, how do you know that your W couldn't meet your EN's (emotional needs) strictly by herself when you never gave her the chance? And vice versa. How could you meet hers when she didn't give you the chance? Now that you've realized what the problems were, you have a better chance at having the marriage you want. And once you have that, you will think to yourself, Why didn't we do this sooner?

You say that you still love your W (wife), just not in the way that you used to. This is good. This is a START. Why your W? Why not w/someone new? B/C your W is the person whom you chose to share a life with, your W is the person whom you chose to forsake all others for, your W is the person who you said your vows to. YOu might think to yourself, Why should I go back to her when I could have something better, someONE better suited for me? This is exactly what my H thought before he decided to move back in & give it a go again. Here we are, a year & a half later & we couldn't be more in love. And we didn't have to sacrifice OURSELVES (who we were inside) to do it. We had to make our M a priority. We had to spend a lot of time together at first. We had to do MC (marriage counseling). That, to me, isn't sacrifice. That is taking the steps neceessary to repair damages that have been done on both sides in order to get to our ultimate goal. Was it hard sometimes? Yes, I won't lie to you. But was it worth it? Definite yes. Neither one of us could ever see ourselves w/o the other. We complete each other. That's kind of hard to explain. It's not that we have lost ourselves in each other but that we're ourselves yet at the same time intertwined. Don't know if I'm making myself clear or not.

As far as this site, you're going to find that some people will annoy you, some people will be very beneficial to you, some people will tell you things that you need to hear, some will tell you things that you don't want to hear, but everyone has the same goal. To help themselves & others have a fulfilling marriage. This place is not a cult. I personally do not worship The Harleys. I have a God whom I worship. I know you're an atheist but I have found that God speaks to us in many forms & I believe this place was God-sent for me at the time when I desperately was crying to Him for His help in saving my M. Maybe it will be for you too, you never know. You tried things your way, they didn't work. How about trying a different approach? You never know. You just might end up being in that fulfilling M that you want.

Sorry this got so long. I didn't intend it that way. I do tend to get long-winded. Hope you didn't give up reading.

No, this stuff is not about doing ANYTHING to save a marriage.
Yes, some people do follow it blindly abnd think they HAVE to save the marriage at any cost without even knowing WHY they should do it.

When a wayward spouse (WS) has an affair and leaves (or sticks around and causes all kinds of ruckus) the betrayed spouse (BS) has no option of doing anything, even if they wanted to. All the "power" is in the hands of the WS.
Using Marriage Builders (MB) principles gives the BS tools to be in a position to actually do something. It helps them to regain a sense of self (and self worth).

It has been shown that affairs really do end (regardless of the WS saying, "I will divorce you and we will NOT get back together") and that the WS will usually make some attempt at reconciliation, even in the worst case.

Once the BS is in a position to do something, they can make an informed decision to do something, not simply based on feelings whether to continue or not.
MB principles are proven to make things work, as long as both people use them.

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One other thing I should have mentioned in my previous post. Dr. Harley states, in so many words, that his philosophy is one that works with what we refer to here as "garden variety" affairs. It is far less likely to work when there are alcohol or chemical addictions, sexual addictions or serious mental health problems or defects involved. He clearly states that the addictions or mental health problems need to be dealt with 1st, and "cured" before the MB principles are employed.

Most A's are "garden variety". Most A's are common and ordinary. Most A's are the result of the two partners becoming lazy or lax in taking steps to insure their marriage does not become vulnerable to an A. Most A's are the result of "life's" everyday requirements taking over our lives, and forgetting to nurture a love that was once easy, and came naturally. Most A's are the result of falling into ruts, and reacting in less than a loving and caring fashion to our spouses (failure to communicate lovingly and effectively). Most A's are a very complex combination of these items, a unique set for every couple.

The damage an A can do to a betrayed spouse has been put at a level comparable to the loss of a child. It is wholly devastating in so many ways. Pain, shock, grief, betrayal, loss of self, loss of self esteem, in short, life altering effects. People can't sleep, can't focus, can't eat, can't funtion. Their thoughts are wholly consumed by the flood of emotions. Life, is not fun.

You were surprised by the "efforts" people will make to survive an affair. So was I. I was surprised I would submit myself to the pain and anguish my W put me through. Like many here, I've been married for over 30 years and have adult children. Is this something I can "just" walk away from? Do I want to face re-entering "dating" at the age of 54? Do I want the finances I been building for retirement split down the middle, and know that my quality of life will be severely reduced following a divorce? These are questions many of us face. With one son still in high school, do I want to attend his sporting events, while sitting well away from his mother, and having to answer questions about "what happened"?

You see, much of what I'd have to do to survive a Divorce, and come out of it in a healthy way, physically and mentally, I'd have to do anyway to save my marriage. A considerable amount of what needs to be done involves self-improvement. Eliminating annoying behavior, love-busters, household contributions, better at positive and empathetic communication with my wife. People who leave marriages and DON'T do this work, take all of the "baggage" right in to the next relationship.

Even if my marriage fails, after all I've been through, I will be a much better person for having given the marriage my best shot, and I could walk away knowing I did my best to save it. So either way, it's a win/win deal. My own self-improvement is a worthwhile byproduct to an ordeal I never wanted or asked for in the first place. Making lemonade out of lemons? Perhaps. But I think you'll see this theme as fairly common with people who have bought in to Marriage Builders, and, more importantly, done the work required.

Glad you are still around....
Best wishes

SD

A1,

My husband and I counseled with Steve Harley for about 9 months.

I mentioned this website at times - and I have to tell you that SH was surprised/alarmed with what transpires here sometimes.

This site is not always an accurate reflection of MB or MB philosophy either.

Counseling with SH wasn't always by the MB Book. He is an expert in a very narrow field of issues - and our experience with him was priceless!

Saved our marriage and a whole lot of pain during the journey back. Money well spent. Some of the best advice he gave us you'll never see on this website or in any of the books. I know it's expensive, but I can't believe more people don't take advantage of his counseling services.

My wife LEFT ME.
...
Because I didn't feel what I was doing was even remotely wrong.
Here is the problem with using this logic.
Almost always, there are problems in a marriage some minor & insignificant, others great.
Many times, a spouse has an affair because at some point, they felt the marraige was "over" and they feel they had done EVERYTHING possible to make it better but the their spouse was not interested.
Sometimes they really did do a bunch and the other spouse did nothing.
But vice-versa, sometimes they "felt"they did a bunch when in reality they NEVER said anything to their spouse and all they did was moan & groan to their friends.
"He never does anything I want!" or "She never listens to me!"

My point is that perhaps SHE felt it was over and that she had done everything possible to make it better but for whatever reasons, you did nothing.

You felt it was over, therefore, your "relationship" with this other girl was not wrong.
Your wife it was over, so why is her leaving wrong?

You can feel everything is over but regardless, a marriage is a marriage only when you get married. Anything else is simply playing at marriage.

Why can it be over without following the same rules? (as in divorce)

I see the EA that she has been having with the man she is selling the house to has been at least as destructive and disrespectful to the marriage as your A which you began after you were separated. She will have to recognize that and end all contact with that other man. That is if she respects your 'feelings' regarding your view of that 'friendship' and how it has hurt you and your marriage. All of the things she accused you of are those that a wayward spouse tends to use. I don't know whether she was or was not 'guilty' of being in a full PA or even a EA except by your description it tends to sound like at least an emotional affair.

Trust will need to be rebuilt on both of your parts.

You haven't really said what excuse she used for moving in the first place. She had obviously lost all respect for you as a person. But why? Was it justification for her wanting to maintain that other friendship? I guess there are still some holes in the story or that is stuff you don't want to share...because it is 'private'. It just sounds like you are both at fault in one way or the other and you will both needs to acknowledge your own parts in the state of your marriage prior to your separation.

By the way: Dr. Willard Harley doesn't do the phone counseling. That is done by his son, Steve Harley, and daughter, Jennifer Chalmers both also qualified clinical psychologists, I believe.

This site is not always an accurate reflection of MB or MB philosophy either.
A slight correction.
The SITE is (should be?) always a reflection of MB because it is written by MB staff.

The FORUMS may or may not be since the (Harley's never post, whether it is to correct someone or give guidance.