Hi Holiday,

Funny how there are good days and bad days. Yesterday was a bad day but today I feel better than I have in weeks. I indulged in the age old female remedy for any type of man trouble. I changed my hair. I've lost the blond streaks my husband always favoured and I am now a brunette shorter too - shoulder length. I like it.

On the way home I stopped on impulse and bought a dozen really beautiful pink tiger lilies. They are sitting on my dining room table in a square cut vase and I can smell them from where I am sitting.

I have a brother flying into tonight to stay for a few days. My house is clean. I've made a double batch of his favourite cookie - (Three Ginger Cookies - P276 Silver Palate Good Times Cookbook - they are to die for if you like ginger).

My 89 year old father is still the smartest man I know and I finally told him about our separation and my husband's interest in someone else. And he looked at me and told me just to be myself and that I'd do fine. Driving home I realized, he as always was right on the money.

I've loved and trusted my husband for 31 years. I should believe him, if he tells me he loves someone else or maybe needs to love someone else. In that light the situation changes to something that needs to be accepted not raged against. I have a generous heart in part because I have a very pragmatic brain. It is just so much easy to be generous - there is less resistance and it comes back 10 fold.

My Plan B will be unique. It will not be a strategy to manipulate my husband into coming back to me by withholding my affection and all support. It will be letting him go freely with my best wishes for his happiness. In effect, I am giving us both a guilt free green light to change and grow.


It doesn't mean I will want to spend time with them as a threesome but it does mean I have found a way to look at the big picture and am able to respect his needs and not take the whole thing so personally.

I believe that the whole concept of ownership is BS. We are strictly on a rental program. Every single thing you have will go to someone else.

We had a happy long term marriage but you know it is still a rental!

Cheers,

PB

P.S. I hope you enjoyed the kick boxing!

pb,
Ginger cookies!! My favorite. Soft gingersnaps, old "Pogens" (I think Mother's brand might still make them)...and I say old because they go soft then. My Mom used to keep them on top of the refrigerator so noone could find them, but me...

You have a wise Father. My Dad, whenever my H and I had any problems in are early years of marriage would tell me to "close my legs"...like that would have worked with my Mother. From then on talking to my Father never worked out and to date we aren't close. Wish it was different, but he never really took time with his children and now, nor his grandchildren.

My Mom would always tell me to "go home" and work it out. It's so different today. So many temptations. You are correct, everything is basically a "time share". Nothing is ours to keep.

Tiger lilies...they were in my wedding bouquet. The aroma is breathtaking. I kept my bouquet next to the hotel bed where we spent our wedding night. When I catch the scent somewhere (usually have to be in the florist's shop as I live in Nevada and everything dries up and dies here), I think of that special day.

Enjoyed kickboxing yesterday. Today was a workout with trainer and friend and then a "core power" class (strickly abs for 1 hour). I feel so good when I get home, but could eat a house!

I am glad to post with you. You have such a great attitude. Your H will lose so much if he continues down his path.

You are so enlightning. I hope I may be of some help to you,

holiday

ps I just bid on that cookbook...thanks for the tip on great ginger cookies!

Hi Holiday,

It sounds like you are in shape girl! I used to spin faithfully every lunch hour, but over the last several months I've haven't been doing much other than the occassionally yoga class. Well - I have more time on my hands now ... so kickboxing here I come. It would take a while but I would love to have enough upper body strength to go climbing - probably just the wall climbing that certain gyms are set up for. That just plain looks like fun.

Scent has the most direct track to brain, it is the sense most closely tied with memory. I am glad you have such a wonderful connection to tiger lilies. I guess your husband knows what flower to buy for you.

Opps got to go. My brother just arrived.

Cheers,

PB

Have a wonderful visit with your brother!
TTYVS,
holiday

Thanks Holiday,

We are having great time. My brother landed bearing a gift. One of these little ipods with 450 CDs on it. I'm lisening to K.D. Lang - Hymns of the 49th Parallel right now - 'Helpless' - Great C.D.

He is trying to talk me into a cycling/camping trip to Croatia. Tha Adriatic Coast is apparently breathtaking. My brother loves very rough off the beaten track kind of travel. He has a gift for languages which makes it easier.

I've heard now from almost everyone in my husband's family. Everyone is shocked etc etc. Infidelity doesn't just effect the couple - it ripples through families. I am not only losing my husband but his family which I have been part of for so long it is my family too.

I find it hard to grasp. No more big family dinners, cottage weekends together, watching the kids grow into just great grown ups. We are all connected in some way and I find it amazing how a change in one person's life will set off changes in many lives.

I was once on a business trip and I stopped to get a coffee . While I was adding milk I had this powerful urge to take some sugar and put it in my pocket. I don't take sugar in anything and I don't pick up stuff I don't need. An hour later I was standing in a building in a different part of town and a woman beside me went into an insulin coma. We were miles away from any source of sugar except for the packets I had picked up earlier in the day - strange but true. I often wonder what would have happened if I had not given into that urge.

Cheers,

PB

Good Morning,

How thankful the woman must have been for your sugar packets.

I have similar "energy" urges and see things in people and events that at the time no one else might notice.

Just the other day I was waiting at a traffic light and noticed the car on the right of me had a small beagle in the backseat trying to see out the window which I felt was down to low. It reminded me of my good friend's beagle. I wasn't able to get the driver's attention as I was afraid the little dog would jump out or fall out. I made a little prayer and the window rolled up. I felt then the dog would be just fine.

The next day my distraught, friend emailed me to tell my his dog had past away that morning. I told him my little story. She had been with him for 12 years. He told me it helped ease his sadness.

Amazing on how many things we are not in tune with. I feel God sends us messages over and over in different ways, hopefully we will catch on.

The IPOD is what my daughter is saving her $$ for. Great little item.

I was thinking after reading this last post of yours...do you journal? I try to keep up, but it's hard. I feel your last post should be a letter to your H. You might not send it to him, but address it to him just the same.

Have a wonderful Saturday with your brother. A trip sounds wonderful! Do you have room in your suitcase? for me ha!

holiday

Hi PB,

Welcome to Marriage Builders. It's a great resource. I'm sorry for the reason you're here, though.



You say your husband is in the middle of a mid-life crisis. It's been my experience that people often don't think rationally in a crisis. Do you really think you should believe anything he's saying right now?



Are those the only two options you see, PB? Give up on a 25-year-marriage or rage?


All right then! Let's make full use of that pragmatic brain during this crisis in your marriage. The emphasis now needs to be thinking not feeling. Please consider calling Steve Harley. He can come up with a pragmatic plan to get your marriage back on track. There's no time to lose.


PB, are you saying you will support your husband's affair with another woman?



I know this has got to be the hurt talking. You can't possibly think of marriage as a rental agreement. Was that the level of commitment you had in mind when made your wedding vows?

Do you love your husband and your marriage enough to seek help and come up with a plan to recover it???

Please consider posting over on General Questions II. There are many Plan A/B vets over there that can help guide you through this. Are you up to the challenge?

I wish you well.

Nat

Hi Natalie,

Thanks for taking the time to both read what is now becoming a long post and give the matter such careful thought. Often being on the outside of a situation gives great perspective.

I'll just take your points one by one.

Is he making any sense? - Short answer NO.

But I have watched him be head over heels in love with another woman for two years and even though he honoured my request for no contact about one year and half ago - with few exceptions (I think) - he has been miserable. He pines for her. He says she opened him up - and that he has had a cartharsis of some description. Concurrent with out and out adoration of someone else, he has become increasingly distant with me - no physical affection, quick to criticise - and just plain indifferent.

This is either a very long term mid life crisis, misguided true love on his part or affair fog. You are right - I can't trust what he is saying.

Rage or 25 Year Marriage ? Short Answer - the 25 Year Marriage

We have been through alot together in our 25 years, This is by far the worst. I have never ever felt so abandoned as I do now. An absolute roller coaster of all manner of emotions that can cloud the brain, but I really think I may be sitting on the car by myself.

My husband seems happy. He just came by to drop off the dog and he says he is sleeping well. He feels great. We've both been invited to a party tomorrow. Do I mind not going so he can bring someone else - oh and have I bought and wrapped the gift?

By my calculation, I will lose 15 people I love if our marriage ends. He will lose some 38 people who have loved and cared about him for two decades. Although, right now he is not taking their calls. That a huge loss of human wealth - the connectedness that makes life rich. I watched my husband and brother stand and stare at each other like strangers today. They have been friends for 25 years. They should have been hugging and doing that male back pat thing and then immediately yapping about Lance Armstrong.

Supporting My Husband's Affair With OW That would be No

Before I read any of the material on this site I did three things right. I insisted on no contact once I realized there were very mutual very strong emotional ties, I started paying attention to my marriage - I tried to reconnect. When he bascially told me he loved her and he didn't love her I asked him to leave and drastically reduced contact.

Plan B is hard. I hate manipulating people. And that is what it feels like. I'm not supporting the affair. But I love my husband enough to want him to be happy. If he is not happy with me and he has not been for two years - then perhaps leaving me for someone else is something to be considered. However, that presumes he is sane and above I believe we came to the conclusion he is fogged.

Is Marriage A Rental - Yes

Allow me to explain, I think of life as a 'lease'. Our concepts of permanence just aren't based in reality. Becauxe we are impermanent. I think the concept of ownership is a misconception for the same reason. I don't want to think of my husband as someone who I own or who is mine in a possessive way. It makes him an object. I want to cherish him because he loves me freely ideally without being dragged kicking and screaming away from someone else.

When I think about our situation, I am to blame too. I allowed what can best be described as a little Dana Buchman clad human torpedo into my home. She scoped out my husband, set her co-ordinates and armed up for a seek and destroy mission on our marriage. I should have been looking at the radar!!!!!


Am I up to the challenge? I guess we will see. Some parts of this are as much fun as chewing glass. But tonight I will put in a very old VHS tape of our wedding and I will lisen to what I promised him.

Cheers,

PB

Good morning,

Whew!
Once again you are an inspiration girl!

Saddens me to think you sat and watched your wedding video though.

And sadly, your brother and your H. My stomach has a knot.

I agree with the "lease" of life itself. How we take care of our rental/lease in God's eyes is what it's all about. You'd think (and I have always felt this way) if you are basically borrowing something (from the man upstairs, especially) you would take better care of it than if it were your own. Humans take alot for granted especially in concerns of the heart. PB, where you are now is a good place spiritually, believe it or not.

I don't like my "radar" on all the time. But since my H second PA I feel like anyone could be a threat to our marriage and I at times act accordingly. I was a very easy going person, gave everyone 3 strikes, yada yada, but now I'm "tuned in". Makes me tired at times.

Yet ,when I take the time to really think about it all, I really do realize it is ALL beyond my control. And then I relax again and let God do his work.

I pray your H will have a epiphany (splg?) soon and wake up, that is what I pray. You are wonderful!

Have you ever written "her" a letter on your feelings? If your H doesn't really look at the "whole" picture, I believe she will be walking in your shoes in time. Alot of people, especially OP, don't get that the WS is looking for a "fix". And once the "fix" is used up they are on to another to get the "high".

Is your brother still visiting? Hope so. What are your plans for the day? I'm heading out to kickboxing woohoo!

holiday

Hi Holdiay,

Not a fun day so far. My brother is away visiting with friends but we are taking my parents to dinner later this evening. He is staying for a week.

I woke up thinking I am dealing with a lunatic and a viper. How else could this woman hurt me? There is a lovely film called Persuasion based on a Jane Austen novel. It has a line of dialogue that is ringing in my head "It is the cake she cares about".

I went through my home today and picked up every single item she has ever admired and locked it up. It made sick. But this is like a war and I need to jealously guard the fast diminishing balance my husband has in my love bank. At this point she is quite likely bedding him and drinking my very best wine, it would kill me to see him give her something of mine.

Not a fun day at all..... Only bright note was a call from my mother and father in law - to tell me once again they will always be there for me - no matter what happens.

Time to go do something physical - maybe a run I think. Thank you for your prayers - that's really sweet and helpful. Faith is so powerful....


Cheers,

PB.

Let's hope if they are "drinking" your wine...that they choke on it, ha! Okay enough negative.

I wish my in laws were still alive. They loved me (I felt) more than my own parents.

Have fun with your parents and brother tonight!

ttys,
holiday

Ps may I ask what part of the country you live in?

Hi PB,

You sound like a lovely person with a strong sense of self. I know you'll be fine no matter what happens. But you need help here recovering your marriage, if that is what you'd like to do. Again, I urge you to post on General Questions II, where others have extensive experience with Plan A and B. And of course, to consult the experts, the counsellors that host this website.

You said:



Operative words here: "I think" and "few exceptions". Everytime there has been contact, you go right back to square one. Your marriage can never move ahead. And I believe you said she's a neighbour, making true no contact more difficult. Your marriage never had a real chance with all this contact. Did your husband ever write her a no contact letter?



Yadaa, yada, yada. It's like he's reading from the WS (Wayward Spouse) script book. This is very typical. He felt this way about you at one point, right? You can get back to that point...



I'm curious, what was your response to this?



How? Did you determine what his top needs are?



PB, you're not in Plan B. You are still in contact with him. You may even be buying him a gift to take to a party that he'll be going to with the OW?

Plan B is not about manipulating anyone. It is about NOT enabling cake-eating: i.e., I will NOT be part of a triangle. It's about clearly and lovingly setting boundaries. It's about protecting your love for him.



Well, PB, I have to disagree with you here. May I share my perspective with you? I think our core, our spirits, our souls are very permament, indeed. And I believe the vows that my husband and I exchanged are also part of a life-long, eternal commitment to each other. It's not about ownership, at all, you're right. But it's also not about what FEELS right at any given moment. It's about commitment and promises. The promise we made was not to love, honour and cherish until we meet someone else that might tickle our fancy.



You are NOT to blame for your husband's affair. He will need to do the work to uncover what character flaw in him allowed to make that poor choice. You may be responsible for your part in allowing the marriage to become vulnerable to an affair. I think you suggested that you may have failed to meet your husband's need for admiration. That's a good starting point.



Isn't that the truth! But don't lose hope here, PB. It does get better with work and time. Hang in there...and seek expert help, okay? Your marriage is on fire! Time to call in the professionals...

God bless,
Nat

Hi Holiday,

We ended up having a lovely day - took the dog to the beach, saw mom and dad, and walked a long way by the water and had very long talks. I live in southern Ontario.

My brother thinks that basically every man has fantasies of other women and as they mature they realize that is just what they are fantasies. He believes that it has alot to do with self knowledge. People who are not very self aware have difficulty in understanding the impact of their actions on others. Without some self knowledge it is difficult to come up with strategies to deal with your limitations because you simply are not recognizing that they are there.

I not sure that it isn't more primal/instinctual. Sheepdogs who are bred to herd, often don't know what to do with sheep at first - then all of a sudden - they get it. It is like a switch turns on and they never look at sheep the same way.

I worry that maybe the OW has like flipped my WS's switch and he is going to become just one of the legion of sad older men who chase younger women to kind of greedily suck up life. Ouch what a horrible thought.

There is a great book, by Temple Grandin - Animals in Translation which explores animal behaviour - well worth reading.

I hope you enjoyed your day....

Cheers,

P.B.

Good to hear you had a nice visit with your parents.

I was born in Rochester, NY and had relatives (don't think they are living any longer...Great Aunts etc) in Hamilton. We moved to the west coast when I was young, but made trips back to the east and many visits to Ontario.

The people there were (to me) so much more educated (proper), compared to the west coast. It was a delight to visit my one Aunt.

I placed an order on the book you recommended. I love a good read.

I don't mean to ignore you Natalie, sorry. If I were going through a rollercoaster ride like PB with my H that long, I would probably be sick to my stomach, dizzy and wishing to go home. I feel sometimes in certain sitch's like PB's, all the Plan A-ing etc may not be noticed and one might chose to sit back like PB is doing and let life settle down before getting on the ride again. We can only do so much and then we need to place it in God's hands.

PB, have a nice Monday evening.

TTYS,

holiday

Oh...And I love your "Dana Buchman" analogy...cute! She sounds like a "peach"!

Hi Natalie,

Sorry, I am slow in getting back to you. I think we were posting at the same time last night. I was signing off just as I noticed your comments. I read them carefully and decided to sleep on them. I enjoy your posts you always give me a lot to think about.

Your botton line conclusion is spot on - yes we need professional help. I have asked my husband if he would consider counseling perhaps 10 times - if only to help me adjust to the change. He is not interested. He doesn't need counseling. He is fine. If I need it I can go. I went to a therapist right after I had to ask him to leave. Her suggestion was if we were to make any progress on resolving the marital issues - he had to be there. Otherwise, it would be strictly helping me find my way through this.

I can fill out the needs questionaire on my own. I can talk to Steve Harley on my own - both I believe will help. I will spend more times in the Plan A Plan B forum. I have not sent him a Plan B letter, I will work one up over the next day or so. I have quietly and patiently said everything I will put in that letter.

Yes there has been too much OW contact. No he did not write a no contact letter because I just discovered this resource perhaps two to three weeks ago. He did sit down with the OW and ask her to leave him alone.

The party comment made me take a deep breath. I just shook my head at him said "Sorry, I have already accepted the invitation and I would prefer that you allow me go on my own. Thanks." It made me tear up and when ever I show any emotion he runs like a rabbit - it is almost comical.

Agreed, it is not a perfect Plan B. I have been giving thought to ways of bringing our situation closer to the program. We are business partners. I can use email more by buying him a blackberry. Which he will either lose, drown or mangle in some other bizarre manner. My WS is very hard on all types of hand held equipment. We replace his cell phone every 4 months.

It is very hard to run a business and not talk to each other. We have employees, clients, bills - all manner of legal responsibilities that we share right now. I work from home - whenever necessary to avoid contact as much as possible. No contact would be impractical. We are doing our best to be professional - because we have no choice.

He is moving tonight to stay with a family member some 20 miles away - which is a welcome surpise!!!! His sister is worried about him and has invited him to stay with her for a few weeks until he sorts out his 'accommodation' issues.

The move will help reduce contact. I find it very draining dealing with this pod person who only looks like my husband. Quite often he won't even look me in the eye.

I don't believe the affair is my fault, but I do believe I allowed my marriage to become vulnerable. I was busy with work, professional associations, parental care, dog care, house care, meal preparation, entertaining - but truthfully very little direct one on one husband attentiveness.

I really wanted to keep my Dad at home and frankly I thought over the three years we cared for him - the quality of our life did suffer but there was an upside too. My husband didn't see the upside.

Our whole community seems to know about this now. I had to leave the party on Sunday earlier than I had planned. In the first 20 minutes - 6 people came over to tell me how sorry they were. I hate pity. It makes me itchy. I am not keen on melodrama - I abhor it in my own life. At some point in our lives no matter what happens I am going to try to get him to understand how hard a situation this is for the BS.

From my review of the material on this site, I believe you sometimes have to just do your Plan A and then Plan B - till they come to their senses. Till the affair dies the natural death that basically all relationships based on deceipt and thoughtlessness do.

I am pretty much completely in the dark on what is going on with the OW. I have no idea to what degree they are involved. The fact that he is moving to his sister's surprises me actually. He says he has been working so hard he just hasn't had time to find a new place.

There are funny moments though. When I was looking at his stash of wrinkle creams, I thought - he is going to want hair implants and a face lift next. Sure enough he asked me this morning what I thought it would cost to get his 'face fixed'. I just laughed.

Thank you for sharing your experience and understanding.

You are right I will be fine in time - no matter what happens.

Cheers,

P.B.

Hi Holiday,

I've driven through Rochester. I like the American West. It is beautiful country - burnt but beautiful.

I've been really busy the last few days between family etc. I did get a nice comment from Dad tonight that I thought I would share with you. "Honey - Right now you need to think about and remember the good times."

So, I am going to follow Dad's advise and post some of the particularly funny or poignant moments in our married life. Great therapy I think... !!!!!

My husband taught me to drive standard when I was in my late teens. He took me to a parking lot with his first brand new leased red Honda Prelude. He LOVED that car.
He sat there patiently while I violently rocked that baby across the lot in 5 foot long shuddering spasms of clutch grinding agony. I have never seen anyone's skin go so pale. He keep his eyes on the floor mat held on to the dash while sweating profusely and told me - "you're doing just fine honey!"

I hope you enjoy the book.... I know you will love those cookies.

Cheers,


PB

Good Afternoon PB,

How is your day going?

I've been sewing totes, getting ready for the fall (I sell on ebay).

Your Dad is a very wise man. What a wonderful thought to remember the good things. When things feel like they are going terribly wrong we will dwell on them too much at times. With positive thoughts we can hope to remain positive.

A Honda Prelude...I learned standard in my girlfriend's boyfriend Scott's Ford MACH 1. The linkage to shift was so close together and everytime I would shift Scott would bit his lip...what are your girlfriend's boyfriend's for??? Ha!

My boyfriend at the time had a 64' Vette, but it was in the garage being worked on more than on the road.

Oh the days of only having to worry about what your outfit for school was going to be.

Talk with you soon,

holiday

Hi PB,

I'm not sure what your wants are here. I don't know if you want to recover your marriage or if you don't. And I don't know if you can recover it or not. But if you do want to save your marriage (and I'm not trying to push you here), I would recommend you do the following:

1. Call Steve Harley. He does telephone counselling. He has helped many recover their marriages without the initial involvement of their wayward spouses. YES, YOU CAN START THE marriage recovery process ON YOUR OWN! I've seen many people do that here many times.

2. Post on General Questions II. That is where everybody is. There's not much traffic here or in the Plan A/B forums. General Questions is where you need to be. Put a call out to MelodyLane or Pepperband. They CAN help.

I wish I could be of more help to you but (fortunately for me) I don't have any first-hand experience with Plan A or B. I am one of the "lucky" ones. My husband gave up the OW the day I discovered the affair.



Well, that is a good sign! Me thinks all is not well in AffairLand. Usually, they just move in together, right? Or is the OW married? If she is, the first order of the day is to inform her husband. Exposure is your most powerful tool in ending the affair.



That's great. You've been reading. And you have a good grasp of the essentials. Can you see there is hope? If recovering your marriage is what you want...

A couple of other thoughts...



PB, why are you apologizing here, honey? Be a mirror. Reflect his question back at him(CALMLY...):

PB: Are you asking your wife to stay home so you can take another woman to a party?

PB's Husband: Well, we are separated.

PB: And married.


I feel the same way. HATE pity. Would rather almost that people hate me than pity me. So my solution is not to be pitiful. Tell people you "share the same concern for your husband that they do and are hoping for the best." HE's the pitiful one right now.

Keep your chin up, PB. Nurture yourself, right now. You've been through a terrible trauma. Take care of yourself.

Natalie

Hi Holiday and Natalie

Natalie, I have been thinking about this sentence in one of your previous posts.

He will need to do the work to uncover what character flaw in him allowed to make that poor choice.

I'm not sure that infidelity and flawed character are synonomous. Or rather I believe that many people who cheat are not flawed. If something like 60% of all marriages have some episodes of infidelity - then you would have to believe a very large percentage of married people have character flaws. I believe it is behaviour which has a complex base of conscious choice and physical factors.

By way of example, in Temple Grandin's book she described a breeding accident in chickens. In seeking to produce chickens with more white meat, breeders lost the little piece of DNA that allowed roosters to instinctively know the mating dance ritual that hens expected. They bred the romance out of the rooster. The hens simply would not get ready for action without the dance - the poultry equivalent of a movie and dinner. The hens weren't co-operating. The roosters were getting frustrated they began to rape the chickens often killing them. This problem became so pervasive breeders just thought that this was how roosters were. They cured it eventually. Sexual behaviour is complex.

I agree with Dr. Harley when he says there is a real instinctual basis to unfaithful behaviour -that good people when programmed with the right fulfillment of their needs will go into a kind of addicted to love crazy mode and virtually throw their lives away - abandon their children/spouses, jobs.

I think where the conscious choice comes in is recognizing how destructive this behaviour is and eliminating situations or scenarios which would put you at risk.

I love his love bank analogy. It equates emotions to a kind of accounting system that trigger behaviour. I like this site becauae the explanations make sense to me.

I don't believe my husband has a flawed character for an instance. He is a good kind generous honest man. I do believe he is a pod person right now for a number of complex reasons - some of which are physical. Maybe the whole older man - younger gal thing - is kind of a last call for a procreation "bingo' being put out by some chromosone we have yet to figure out.

When I explained the whole love bank paradigm to my brother. His first reponse was - What about unconditional love? Does this outlook mean that it does not exist? Is love solely conditional on needs being met?

What do you think girls?

Cheers,

P.B.

Hmmmm PB,

I have always thought "unconditional love" was still a condition.

I will have to think it over a bit more and post later today,

holiday