I have been reading the material on this site for a number of weeks now. Although, I think I may have found it alitte late to save my marriage.

We have been together for 25 years. Over the last three years while working full time in a demanding job, I have been caring for my father who has dementia in our home. Two years ago on my husband's birthday I realized he had formed a very strong emotional attachment to one of my younger and quite pretty girlfriends. She is a neighbour.

I have since moved my Dad into a nursing home and my husband has unsuccessfully tried to forget and get over this woman.

He has refused to go to counseling. I went once by myself but frankly have found this site to offer much better practical advise.

He seems to be going through some sort of mid life crisis. I don't believe they have han a physical affair he just really misses her and has built up this fantasy around her in his head which makes her into someone who does not at all resemble the woman I regret that I know so well.

He has tried to stop seeing her but it is difficult given her close proximity. Occassionally you can't avoid running into her. ( She practically stalked him until he told she had to stop calling and following him around.)

About a month ago, after seeing him talking to her, he admitted that he still thinks about her all the time. He also said that he felt constrained by our marriage, that he wasn't sure that he loved me enough and that he no longer found me as attractive as he should. (I am an attractive well groomed 50 year old but not the knock out I was at 25.)

I have loved this man it seems my entire adult life. Throughout our marriage I have been incredibly suppportive, I have provided strong and consistant financial support, admiration, affection, recreational companionship, conversation, and great domestic support.

Our one weak spot was sexual fulfillment. My husband was virgin when we married and he has never been with another woman. He didn't mention this until last week. I had always assumed that he just wasn't that interested in sex. I think now rather he just wasn't experienced enough to communicate effectively on the subject. He has told me that I have been a fabulous wife, that most men would kill for but he isn't happy - he wants to grab life whatever that means.

After hearing his comments I told him I thought if he truly felt that way - he should leave.

We have been apart over a month now. This week he told his family about our separation not mentioning the other woman.

We own a company together and I still talk to him daily about business matters.

I just find that I really don't believe that this is happening to us. It just seems that the sweet attentive man I married has been abducted by aliens. We have been friends for over 31 years and I am just stunned by his behaviour.

When reality does sink in - the hurt is just unbelievable. Frankly being stunned is much better - numbness is preferable to agony.

It seems I am now on Plan B. Although it is difficult to maintain complete separation he sees me several times a week and talks to me twice daily on company issues.

I have resolved to bring wind down my involvement in his company, and sort out our finances in preparation for a permanent break. Basically to move on with life ... thank god for our dog, road trips and the soothing monotony of housework.

It just seems like such a waste.

Dear paradise,

My heart goes out to you. I am so sorry you are living with all this.

Your post caught my eye as I have been with my H for close to 27 years and married for almost 24 of them. My H was 17 1/2 when we got together and I was just 21. Sexual experience was not our forte. My H has had 2 mini PA's and I think the lack of knowing what's out there tempted/perhaps still temps him.

What's that old saying??: Nothing in life is a guarentee except death and taxes? Feels that way.

You have come to such a great place here at MB. Helped me stay sane when I needed it most.

I don't think you should give up just yet. Keep working on your Plan A. I feel there will come a point when the OW will start to turn ugly to him. She was only meeting one of his EN's...sex. That will tarnish all too soon, when she can't support him in the way he had become accustomed to for 31 years.

Don't be hard on yourself either. A "hottie" at 50 is wonderful! Keep your chin up (to God) and let him guide you.

If you need me, I am here (you can find me also under <Old Newbie's post. Where are you> with my 2 good friends here who like to help also.)

Peace,
holiday

Thank you very much Holiday for your kind concern. I enjoyed the death and taxes remark. It is so true.

Trying to do more of Plan A than I was previously doing hasn't been successful. It is like while he is wrapped up in her I don't exist. No love bank deposits are possible there is a freeze on the account!

I thought that as you progressed in a relationship it would get easier frankly I think it gets harder. Particularly, when you have grown up together as we have - much like you and your husband.

I feel like someone has sawed up a limb but he is showing no signs of anything but a kind of delusional giddiness. He plans to buy a new wardrobe, get an new condo and redecorate it to be a bachelor pad, practically next door to me.

I don't know how much he is seeing this women or if they have progressed into a physical relationship. Or how serious he will be about her in the long run. At one point he was all charged up about one of her girlfriends. Now there is painful irony.

Men do seem to perceive the situation differently. I have had many many opportunities to cross the line and I have never given it a moment's thought because I could never imagine hurting him. He doesn't see that his behaviour is wrong in the least. I am wrong for interfering in his friendship with her. She in turn has been really aggressive with me basically trying to intimidate me into leaving them alone. Which is what I am now doing.

I always thought sex was wonderful communication and I enjoyed it but it never really gelled between my husband and I. I wish now we had taken our awkwardness more seriously and worked it out - because it has to play a role in this.

The largest part of it though I think is the admiration quotient. He loves to be complimented and she speaks in nothing but compliments.

So you are right this does seem to be a great place to go for solace and the opportunity to ramble to people who have been there.

I am thankful I have found it because I think I will need all the encouragement I can get. Before I again feel like a 50 year old hottie with my chin up.

Faith, humour, friends two legged and four legged, work, and I guess the recognition that pain is what gives definition to joy is what gets you through the hard bits.

Ultimately, I believe loving and giving in life are the most richly rewarded activities. They are the skill set you need to be truly happy. Even if for some reason it does not work out - amidst the disappointment is the ability to walk away with the skills to do it better next time.

Dear Paradise,
My husband and I have been together for 25 years and married for 23. I was 17 he was 20 when we started dating. I am so sorry you are here.

Isn't it amazing that the admiration they need is so easy for someone who isn't picking up their dirty clothes, cleaning the bathroom when they 'miss' and all those other wonderful things we do for them? That is something that has really bugged me.

Sorry, that's my vent for the thread.

I do hope that what he feels for her fades and you can work things out.

Paradise,

""I realized he had formed a very strong emotional attachment to one of my younger and quite pretty girlfriends.""

I take it she is no longer your girlfriend. I am curious if you have ever confronted her on this issue. Has he been seeing her since he left?

Is OW married? Exposing to all is a great way to stop the A..if there is one.

I would not be so quick on the trigger on calling it quits. Your H sounds like he is experiencing a mid-life crises or some revelation of mortality. A plan Aing, loving, caring, and understanding wife should be able to draw him back.

k

k

You're welcome paradise...

Yes, admiration is the key to a man (I always thought it was through his stomach, ha!).

As tough as this is, continue while you can giving him the same "compliments" and make up some she hasn't told him.

I was always dogging on my H that "he" never gave me enough compliments and what was really happening was I wasn't giving them to him (holding out so to speak).

Well, I changed it up considerably. I don't fight it anymore and boy has he changed.

I think I must tell him he's "cute" a dozen times a week and he "gloats" and in return he says a nice thing or two back. That's what was missing so much in our long term relationship...the short term lovey dovey stuff.

Don't let her intimidate you. Don't let her know anything you are doing. Keep her out of your business. Like I said, her "halo" will soon tarnish, fall off and hopefully she'll trip over it and your H's fog will lift.

holiday

Hi Krusht,


I agree it is a waste to throw away such a stable long term marriage and I am in no hurry to do that.

When I first found out about the emotional affair. It was an admission on her part. I thought at first that perhaps she was lonely and fixated on him and we could simply tone it down abit and all remain friends. We walk our dogs together - so I simply went out with her instead of my husband.

After several weeks, I had to stop because she was so manipulative, aggressive and intense - I was coming home so upset - I wouldn't sleep. She has suggested that they are soul mates, that she will be handling his divorce - she is a lawyer. I have just kept my head down and ignored her comments - changing the conversation to the weather! Now I simply don't talk to her. If he didn't see her he would call her five or six times a day. Which I noticed quite by accident on his cell phone bill one day.


Mostly, the part hardest to take was how much she seem to want him. He has I believe not seen her for long periods - but she will take whatever crumb he offers. If he is not seeing her, I have no doubt that he wants to.

This is the second time my husband has indulged in an emotional affair. The one before moved into our condominium and joined the same clubs. I have gotten the impression that these women want my life. They are attracted to us by what we seem to have as a couple but they don't realize that I am a large part of that loving generous warm fun environment. The first time it happened I just assumed that it was her chasing him, now I realize there must have been substantial encouragement on his part. I still think that what really draws him to these situations is the admiration.

I will continue to try the Plan A approach during the contact we do have. I have never indulged in love buster behaviour. I know my husband so well, it is really hard to watch him be so attracted to someone else. The saying that marriage is about being a witness to each others' life is very true. I just find it really difficult to be understanding when he is being so hurtful and totally careless of my feelings.

My husband believes I will always be there for him - that I will always love him no matter what. Any mess he makes in whatever circumstance - I will clean up. I just don't think that is true anymore.

I have no doubt there are mortality issues here at play. He has had to watch my father decline from being an incredibly smart man - to someone who needs help with the simplest tasks. It scares him. Whereas what I found amazing was how my father still managed to love so well and connect with people. My Dad was just so popular in our little community....

I have told him he should follow his heart but sort out what it is really saying. - That to throw away what we both thought until very recently was a great marriage is quite likely not going to make him happy in the long run.

Basically, everyone he talks to friend or family tells him the same thing. He is actually resentful of the consensus of opinion. Although there are only a few people he has admitted the other woman to.


Thank you very much for your perspective and for lisening. It really does help with perspective when you put your thought to paper rather than just let them spin around your brain.

I feel your pain, im kind off in the same boat as you are with my wife. I had an appointment with steve that helped alittle. You can read my story on Just Found Out - "Wifes Affair" and also by Plan B letter that stills needs some tweeking on General Discussion II - "Need help". Please look at those and we maybe can help each other through this. Keep strong, as I know it is hard.

Thank you very much Moveforward. I heard a great line on Seinfeld once about the options in life being either loneliness or irritation. All those little habits which just plain mean extra work for the person who has to clean up - are never fully appreciated by the other person until they actually have to do it themselves. Thanks again.

I guess the key to being strong is to remember them as they were before the aliens took over. Despite the fog and weird behaviour - that person is still in there somewhere. While alot of this stuff seems just out and out selfish. Everyone does have the right to make choices regarding their personal happiness and loving someone always involves the risk of being hurt. But frankly the greater risk is not to love at all because then you just never grow.

I find it just plain spooky - how this type of behaviour has such set patterns - irrespective of gender or individual.

A constructive step for your own personal peace I would guess is to ensure that the relationship your wife has with your two sons is not damaged more than need be. I would probably put the most effort into helping them understand that the human condition is fraught with fraility and that though the marriage is undergoing difficulty - she still loves them very much. That would be just good all round and show the kind of calm in the storm attitude that women find attractive.

Good luck. I think I will say a prayer tonight for all those souls out there myself included who are going to bed with tears on their pillows...

The saying a heavy heart is really true isn't it. There are moments lately when my whole body feels heavy. It just like my blood has turned to mercury - every movement is hard. When ever I'm alone I'm likely to cry or shake or just plain howl. I feel like some sorry pup who has been left on the porch all night.

When I read some of the situations described on this site of going through the same nightmare again and again it is beyond my comprehension how people find the strength to cope with this type of agony - such remarkable resilence.

My husband is still in the fog. Doesn't know what he wants. It changes from moment to moment. I am having as little contact as possible. Part of me is trying to get ready to accept it if he chooses to be with someone else. On one of the posts I've read - they suggested just treating this as mental illness - that in effect the WS is delusional and in some kind of fantasy land. That actually helps alot. I have a hard time believing that the wonderful man I married has suddenly turned into a hurtful deceitful person - crazy is much easy to cope with and probably much closer to the truth.

I have wonderful friends - they have been so good to me through this... With more time on my hands I am really begining to appreciate that how irrespective of the heartache and regardless of the outcome I am really lucky.

Glad to read you are still keeping up your humor.
I'll keep checking on you.
You are so cool (in a good way) and have a great head on your shoulders, keep it up!

P_B,

In reading this thread I was struck by something that you might want to consider and that is plan B. Here is why I say that. First, the OW's behavior is a bit obsessive, and given that she plans on handling his divorce she will be pushing him hard to get it done. That will be a huge love buster, and especially so if YOU go to plan B.

It is clear you are still meeting some of his needs by your presence in his life. It is also clear he is in the fog and the A must end before any progress can be made. You have planted the seeds with your plan A, you apparently have been dealing with this for awhile. So do an EXCELLENT plan A for a bit more, BUT start planning to go to Plan B NOW. It takes time to set it up, and structure it as needed. Start to make those plans now. Further, I would urge you to see a lawyer NOW. Get information on what you might face, and remember the OW is a lawyer, so it is likely she will not "play fair".

But, I think for your H to come out of the fog, you are going to need to go to Plan B and withdraw the support you are providing him. At first he will rush headlong to OW, and that will hurt, but once he deals with her constantly it is likely she will mess up and reveal her true character.

There are no guarentees in this stuff, but start to work the plans as described here and you might find him starting to wake up.

Just some thoughts, but please do your homework about legal stuff, plan B, AND areas where you feel you could make a change for the better if the marriage survives his foolishness.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks Holiday,

It is a day by day effort - requiring:

> numerous shoe purchases ( 4 pairs in the last 2 weeks);

>having a marathon movie watching binge of the films my husband would hate and as a consequence I never get to watch;

>not making any meals to speak of - unless you consider eating tuna on a cracker over the sink - a meal;

> spending unlimited amounts of time with friends and family doing all manner of activities often on the spur of the moment - that would bore him silly;

> ultimately remembering that no one is critically hurt or bleeding, there have been no car crashes, no deaths. This is not a lethal or permanently debilitating illness. It is just plain and simple heartache caused by one very silly man who is I guess afraid of getting old ...

Cheers,

P B

Thanks JL,

I have been trying to fashion a type of Plan B which will meet our situation. I have limited our conversations to just business with rare exceptions. I try to avoid seeing him as much as possible. I can't actually not talk to him because we are making joint decisions every day and it has to be conducted in a business like manner. I always return calls.

I have already set up a consultation with a lawyer and last week reviewed our asset structure with my accountant. Frankly, I am hesitant to bring in legal counsel at this point. I am going just so I am clear where I stand with respect to a couple of corporate issues.

I strongly suspect this woman is after our money - if she is successful in getting him to live with her - she will likely get a good portion of it.

There is not much I can do to change that fact and she knows it. Ultimately, I think of money as a number on a page. I can make more. Frankly I would gladly sign a check for everything we have - to wipe the last two years from memory.


The basic unit in every economy is trust. Money is pretend. We believe it has value so it does. Trust is not pretend it is the vital component of every human organzation, situation and condition. If my husband and I lose our trust in each other - we should expect to lose money.

Goodness - late night philosophizing!

Thanks... I will read up on Plan B strategy to see if I can tighten up my approach.

Wow, "I think I love you"(hypothetically speaking). You are truly an inspiration. Seriously.

Have you thought about writing? I think you have great words of wisdom to help others. Just a thought. Are you keeping a journal?

My ideas for you today: #1 Make sure the shoes you buy are pretty and comfortable. #2 Sit down to a pretty table setting and eat the tuna on the cracker. #3 Make sure you keep up on your physically activities. Take good care of you!

holiday

Thank You Holiday,

That is such a nice thing to say. Honestly, I don't feel terrible inspirational, I feel like a middle aged women who is plain terrified she is going to lose the only man she ever loved to someone else. Frankly, when I think of them living together my knees go weak and I want to throw up.

On a more humerous note, yesterday I dropped by with a friend to where he is living temporarily to pick up some things she had stored there and I snooped! He has a silver framed picture of our wedding day on his desk. Several bottles of MY Chateau de Sours bordeaux in the cupboard, I guess for entertaining and two bottles of wrinkle cream standing on the vanity. My 52 year old husband has raided my cosmetic drawer for wrinkle cream! He wouldn't wear aftershave for decades because he thought it was sissy.
I stood there and just roared with laughter. Maybe it is more sad than funny but it felt great to be laughing.

As to your other advise, I have booked into pilates for tomorrow and I am munching away on a fancy cut peanut butter sandwich on Carlye china. You are right it adds a certain sense of style to the everyday.

Cheers

P B

Hmmm, maybe we should analyze this?

Yes, eating your peanut butter or tuna on a cracker on gorgeous china does alot for one's soul.

Great idea taking pilates classes. I began kickboxing a few months ago. Very good for the spirit!

You truly are inspirational,

holiday

Hi Holiday,

I've been watching 'Love Actually' - It is a lovely film. There is a part where Emma Thompson's WS tells her he has been a fool and she replies with something like yes and you have made me a fool too. In fact you have made how I live my life everyday - foolish. That line is really resonating with me right now.

When I first found out about the EA. My husband told me that this friend and I use the term loosely had been coming onto to him since we first met her. That he could have slept with her at any point and that he never did.

I believe he felt virtuous. I stood there and blinked and said: "You allowed me to welcome this woman into my home and my heart. I made her dinner once a week for probably five years. I bought her lovely gifts. @#$% I bought her dogs lovely gifts.

And you knew from the very beginning that she was not my friend and would without question at some point hurt me." This decision to withhold key information was made before his feelings were engaged. Well before we got into the whole mid life angst thing.

I think he failed in the openess and honesty department but there probably should be a protection category in emotional needs. I believe if you travel through life together you should be trying to keep each safe from harm - not needlessly inviting it into your home.

Going through this is just like being on a roller coaster of hurt, anger, humiliation and that - boy was I a dumb bunny feeling.

I'm really getting tired of having such strong negative emotions. I want to be normal again.

Kickboxing is probably not only good for the spirit - maybe it would help me get rid of some steam...

Cheers,

P.B.

Love Actually and that exact scene tears me up everytime I see it. My H watched it once with me and had to put his head down.

The BS feels like a complete fool, yet this is not our fault. I always wonder how that one relationship in that movie really progressed...or not.

Your H is on a "ME" trip. The OW's true colors will show. It's only a matter of time and time is all we have. Hopefully, you will still have a shread of love in your heart when they do and will be able to have feelings for you H to recover.

Off to the gym! TTYVS,

holiday

Hi Holiday,

Funny how there are good days and bad days. Yesterday was a bad day but today I feel better than I have in weeks. I indulged in the age old female remedy for any type of man trouble. I changed my hair. I've lost the blond streaks my husband always favoured and I am now a brunette shorter too - shoulder length. I like it.

On the way home I stopped on impulse and bought a dozen really beautiful pink tiger lilies. They are sitting on my dining room table in a square cut vase and I can smell them from where I am sitting.

I have a brother flying into tonight to stay for a few days. My house is clean. I've made a double batch of his favourite cookie - (Three Ginger Cookies - P276 Silver Palate Good Times Cookbook - they are to die for if you like ginger).

My 89 year old father is still the smartest man I know and I finally told him about our separation and my husband's interest in someone else. And he looked at me and told me just to be myself and that I'd do fine. Driving home I realized, he as always was right on the money.

I've loved and trusted my husband for 31 years. I should believe him, if he tells me he loves someone else or maybe needs to love someone else. In that light the situation changes to something that needs to be accepted not raged against. I have a generous heart in part because I have a very pragmatic brain. It is just so much easy to be generous - there is less resistance and it comes back 10 fold.

My Plan B will be unique. It will not be a strategy to manipulate my husband into coming back to me by withholding my affection and all support. It will be letting him go freely with my best wishes for his happiness. In effect, I am giving us both a guilt free green light to change and grow.


It doesn't mean I will want to spend time with them as a threesome but it does mean I have found a way to look at the big picture and am able to respect his needs and not take the whole thing so personally.

I believe that the whole concept of ownership is BS. We are strictly on a rental program. Every single thing you have will go to someone else.

We had a happy long term marriage but you know it is still a rental!

Cheers,

PB

P.S. I hope you enjoyed the kick boxing!

pb,
Ginger cookies!! My favorite. Soft gingersnaps, old "Pogens" (I think Mother's brand might still make them)...and I say old because they go soft then. My Mom used to keep them on top of the refrigerator so noone could find them, but me...

You have a wise Father. My Dad, whenever my H and I had any problems in are early years of marriage would tell me to "close my legs"...like that would have worked with my Mother. From then on talking to my Father never worked out and to date we aren't close. Wish it was different, but he never really took time with his children and now, nor his grandchildren.

My Mom would always tell me to "go home" and work it out. It's so different today. So many temptations. You are correct, everything is basically a "time share". Nothing is ours to keep.

Tiger lilies...they were in my wedding bouquet. The aroma is breathtaking. I kept my bouquet next to the hotel bed where we spent our wedding night. When I catch the scent somewhere (usually have to be in the florist's shop as I live in Nevada and everything dries up and dies here), I think of that special day.

Enjoyed kickboxing yesterday. Today was a workout with trainer and friend and then a "core power" class (strickly abs for 1 hour). I feel so good when I get home, but could eat a house!

I am glad to post with you. You have such a great attitude. Your H will lose so much if he continues down his path.

You are so enlightning. I hope I may be of some help to you,

holiday

ps I just bid on that cookbook...thanks for the tip on great ginger cookies!

Hi Holiday,

It sounds like you are in shape girl! I used to spin faithfully every lunch hour, but over the last several months I've haven't been doing much other than the occassionally yoga class. Well - I have more time on my hands now ... so kickboxing here I come. It would take a while but I would love to have enough upper body strength to go climbing - probably just the wall climbing that certain gyms are set up for. That just plain looks like fun.

Scent has the most direct track to brain, it is the sense most closely tied with memory. I am glad you have such a wonderful connection to tiger lilies. I guess your husband knows what flower to buy for you.

Opps got to go. My brother just arrived.

Cheers,

PB

Have a wonderful visit with your brother!
TTYVS,
holiday

Thanks Holiday,

We are having great time. My brother landed bearing a gift. One of these little ipods with 450 CDs on it. I'm lisening to K.D. Lang - Hymns of the 49th Parallel right now - 'Helpless' - Great C.D.

He is trying to talk me into a cycling/camping trip to Croatia. Tha Adriatic Coast is apparently breathtaking. My brother loves very rough off the beaten track kind of travel. He has a gift for languages which makes it easier.

I've heard now from almost everyone in my husband's family. Everyone is shocked etc etc. Infidelity doesn't just effect the couple - it ripples through families. I am not only losing my husband but his family which I have been part of for so long it is my family too.

I find it hard to grasp. No more big family dinners, cottage weekends together, watching the kids grow into just great grown ups. We are all connected in some way and I find it amazing how a change in one person's life will set off changes in many lives.

I was once on a business trip and I stopped to get a coffee . While I was adding milk I had this powerful urge to take some sugar and put it in my pocket. I don't take sugar in anything and I don't pick up stuff I don't need. An hour later I was standing in a building in a different part of town and a woman beside me went into an insulin coma. We were miles away from any source of sugar except for the packets I had picked up earlier in the day - strange but true. I often wonder what would have happened if I had not given into that urge.

Cheers,

PB

Good Morning,

How thankful the woman must have been for your sugar packets.

I have similar "energy" urges and see things in people and events that at the time no one else might notice.

Just the other day I was waiting at a traffic light and noticed the car on the right of me had a small beagle in the backseat trying to see out the window which I felt was down to low. It reminded me of my good friend's beagle. I wasn't able to get the driver's attention as I was afraid the little dog would jump out or fall out. I made a little prayer and the window rolled up. I felt then the dog would be just fine.

The next day my distraught, friend emailed me to tell my his dog had past away that morning. I told him my little story. She had been with him for 12 years. He told me it helped ease his sadness.

Amazing on how many things we are not in tune with. I feel God sends us messages over and over in different ways, hopefully we will catch on.

The IPOD is what my daughter is saving her $$ for. Great little item.

I was thinking after reading this last post of yours...do you journal? I try to keep up, but it's hard. I feel your last post should be a letter to your H. You might not send it to him, but address it to him just the same.

Have a wonderful Saturday with your brother. A trip sounds wonderful! Do you have room in your suitcase? for me ha!

holiday

Hi PB,

Welcome to Marriage Builders. It's a great resource. I'm sorry for the reason you're here, though.



You say your husband is in the middle of a mid-life crisis. It's been my experience that people often don't think rationally in a crisis. Do you really think you should believe anything he's saying right now?



Are those the only two options you see, PB? Give up on a 25-year-marriage or rage?


All right then! Let's make full use of that pragmatic brain during this crisis in your marriage. The emphasis now needs to be thinking not feeling. Please consider calling Steve Harley. He can come up with a pragmatic plan to get your marriage back on track. There's no time to lose.


PB, are you saying you will support your husband's affair with another woman?



I know this has got to be the hurt talking. You can't possibly think of marriage as a rental agreement. Was that the level of commitment you had in mind when made your wedding vows?

Do you love your husband and your marriage enough to seek help and come up with a plan to recover it???

Please consider posting over on General Questions II. There are many Plan A/B vets over there that can help guide you through this. Are you up to the challenge?

I wish you well.

Nat

Hi Natalie,

Thanks for taking the time to both read what is now becoming a long post and give the matter such careful thought. Often being on the outside of a situation gives great perspective.

I'll just take your points one by one.

Is he making any sense? - Short answer NO.

But I have watched him be head over heels in love with another woman for two years and even though he honoured my request for no contact about one year and half ago - with few exceptions (I think) - he has been miserable. He pines for her. He says she opened him up - and that he has had a cartharsis of some description. Concurrent with out and out adoration of someone else, he has become increasingly distant with me - no physical affection, quick to criticise - and just plain indifferent.

This is either a very long term mid life crisis, misguided true love on his part or affair fog. You are right - I can't trust what he is saying.

Rage or 25 Year Marriage ? Short Answer - the 25 Year Marriage

We have been through alot together in our 25 years, This is by far the worst. I have never ever felt so abandoned as I do now. An absolute roller coaster of all manner of emotions that can cloud the brain, but I really think I may be sitting on the car by myself.

My husband seems happy. He just came by to drop off the dog and he says he is sleeping well. He feels great. We've both been invited to a party tomorrow. Do I mind not going so he can bring someone else - oh and have I bought and wrapped the gift?

By my calculation, I will lose 15 people I love if our marriage ends. He will lose some 38 people who have loved and cared about him for two decades. Although, right now he is not taking their calls. That a huge loss of human wealth - the connectedness that makes life rich. I watched my husband and brother stand and stare at each other like strangers today. They have been friends for 25 years. They should have been hugging and doing that male back pat thing and then immediately yapping about Lance Armstrong.

Supporting My Husband's Affair With OW That would be No

Before I read any of the material on this site I did three things right. I insisted on no contact once I realized there were very mutual very strong emotional ties, I started paying attention to my marriage - I tried to reconnect. When he bascially told me he loved her and he didn't love her I asked him to leave and drastically reduced contact.

Plan B is hard. I hate manipulating people. And that is what it feels like. I'm not supporting the affair. But I love my husband enough to want him to be happy. If he is not happy with me and he has not been for two years - then perhaps leaving me for someone else is something to be considered. However, that presumes he is sane and above I believe we came to the conclusion he is fogged.

Is Marriage A Rental - Yes

Allow me to explain, I think of life as a 'lease'. Our concepts of permanence just aren't based in reality. Becauxe we are impermanent. I think the concept of ownership is a misconception for the same reason. I don't want to think of my husband as someone who I own or who is mine in a possessive way. It makes him an object. I want to cherish him because he loves me freely ideally without being dragged kicking and screaming away from someone else.

When I think about our situation, I am to blame too. I allowed what can best be described as a little Dana Buchman clad human torpedo into my home. She scoped out my husband, set her co-ordinates and armed up for a seek and destroy mission on our marriage. I should have been looking at the radar!!!!!


Am I up to the challenge? I guess we will see. Some parts of this are as much fun as chewing glass. But tonight I will put in a very old VHS tape of our wedding and I will lisen to what I promised him.

Cheers,

PB

Good morning,

Whew!
Once again you are an inspiration girl!

Saddens me to think you sat and watched your wedding video though.

And sadly, your brother and your H. My stomach has a knot.

I agree with the "lease" of life itself. How we take care of our rental/lease in God's eyes is what it's all about. You'd think (and I have always felt this way) if you are basically borrowing something (from the man upstairs, especially) you would take better care of it than if it were your own. Humans take alot for granted especially in concerns of the heart. PB, where you are now is a good place spiritually, believe it or not.

I don't like my "radar" on all the time. But since my H second PA I feel like anyone could be a threat to our marriage and I at times act accordingly. I was a very easy going person, gave everyone 3 strikes, yada yada, but now I'm "tuned in". Makes me tired at times.

Yet ,when I take the time to really think about it all, I really do realize it is ALL beyond my control. And then I relax again and let God do his work.

I pray your H will have a epiphany (splg?) soon and wake up, that is what I pray. You are wonderful!

Have you ever written "her" a letter on your feelings? If your H doesn't really look at the "whole" picture, I believe she will be walking in your shoes in time. Alot of people, especially OP, don't get that the WS is looking for a "fix". And once the "fix" is used up they are on to another to get the "high".

Is your brother still visiting? Hope so. What are your plans for the day? I'm heading out to kickboxing woohoo!

holiday

Hi Holdiay,

Not a fun day so far. My brother is away visiting with friends but we are taking my parents to dinner later this evening. He is staying for a week.

I woke up thinking I am dealing with a lunatic and a viper. How else could this woman hurt me? There is a lovely film called Persuasion based on a Jane Austen novel. It has a line of dialogue that is ringing in my head "It is the cake she cares about".

I went through my home today and picked up every single item she has ever admired and locked it up. It made sick. But this is like a war and I need to jealously guard the fast diminishing balance my husband has in my love bank. At this point she is quite likely bedding him and drinking my very best wine, it would kill me to see him give her something of mine.

Not a fun day at all..... Only bright note was a call from my mother and father in law - to tell me once again they will always be there for me - no matter what happens.

Time to go do something physical - maybe a run I think. Thank you for your prayers - that's really sweet and helpful. Faith is so powerful....


Cheers,

PB.

Let's hope if they are "drinking" your wine...that they choke on it, ha! Okay enough negative.

I wish my in laws were still alive. They loved me (I felt) more than my own parents.

Have fun with your parents and brother tonight!

ttys,
holiday

Ps may I ask what part of the country you live in?

Hi PB,

You sound like a lovely person with a strong sense of self. I know you'll be fine no matter what happens. But you need help here recovering your marriage, if that is what you'd like to do. Again, I urge you to post on General Questions II, where others have extensive experience with Plan A and B. And of course, to consult the experts, the counsellors that host this website.

You said:



Operative words here: "I think" and "few exceptions". Everytime there has been contact, you go right back to square one. Your marriage can never move ahead. And I believe you said she's a neighbour, making true no contact more difficult. Your marriage never had a real chance with all this contact. Did your husband ever write her a no contact letter?



Yadaa, yada, yada. It's like he's reading from the WS (Wayward Spouse) script book. This is very typical. He felt this way about you at one point, right? You can get back to that point...



I'm curious, what was your response to this?



How? Did you determine what his top needs are?



PB, you're not in Plan B. You are still in contact with him. You may even be buying him a gift to take to a party that he'll be going to with the OW?

Plan B is not about manipulating anyone. It is about NOT enabling cake-eating: i.e., I will NOT be part of a triangle. It's about clearly and lovingly setting boundaries. It's about protecting your love for him.



Well, PB, I have to disagree with you here. May I share my perspective with you? I think our core, our spirits, our souls are very permament, indeed. And I believe the vows that my husband and I exchanged are also part of a life-long, eternal commitment to each other. It's not about ownership, at all, you're right. But it's also not about what FEELS right at any given moment. It's about commitment and promises. The promise we made was not to love, honour and cherish until we meet someone else that might tickle our fancy.



You are NOT to blame for your husband's affair. He will need to do the work to uncover what character flaw in him allowed to make that poor choice. You may be responsible for your part in allowing the marriage to become vulnerable to an affair. I think you suggested that you may have failed to meet your husband's need for admiration. That's a good starting point.



Isn't that the truth! But don't lose hope here, PB. It does get better with work and time. Hang in there...and seek expert help, okay? Your marriage is on fire! Time to call in the professionals...

God bless,
Nat

Hi Holiday,

We ended up having a lovely day - took the dog to the beach, saw mom and dad, and walked a long way by the water and had very long talks. I live in southern Ontario.

My brother thinks that basically every man has fantasies of other women and as they mature they realize that is just what they are fantasies. He believes that it has alot to do with self knowledge. People who are not very self aware have difficulty in understanding the impact of their actions on others. Without some self knowledge it is difficult to come up with strategies to deal with your limitations because you simply are not recognizing that they are there.

I not sure that it isn't more primal/instinctual. Sheepdogs who are bred to herd, often don't know what to do with sheep at first - then all of a sudden - they get it. It is like a switch turns on and they never look at sheep the same way.

I worry that maybe the OW has like flipped my WS's switch and he is going to become just one of the legion of sad older men who chase younger women to kind of greedily suck up life. Ouch what a horrible thought.

There is a great book, by Temple Grandin - Animals in Translation which explores animal behaviour - well worth reading.

I hope you enjoyed your day....

Cheers,

P.B.

Good to hear you had a nice visit with your parents.

I was born in Rochester, NY and had relatives (don't think they are living any longer...Great Aunts etc) in Hamilton. We moved to the west coast when I was young, but made trips back to the east and many visits to Ontario.

The people there were (to me) so much more educated (proper), compared to the west coast. It was a delight to visit my one Aunt.

I placed an order on the book you recommended. I love a good read.

I don't mean to ignore you Natalie, sorry. If I were going through a rollercoaster ride like PB with my H that long, I would probably be sick to my stomach, dizzy and wishing to go home. I feel sometimes in certain sitch's like PB's, all the Plan A-ing etc may not be noticed and one might chose to sit back like PB is doing and let life settle down before getting on the ride again. We can only do so much and then we need to place it in God's hands.

PB, have a nice Monday evening.

TTYS,

holiday

Oh...And I love your "Dana Buchman" analogy...cute! She sounds like a "peach"!

Hi Natalie,

Sorry, I am slow in getting back to you. I think we were posting at the same time last night. I was signing off just as I noticed your comments. I read them carefully and decided to sleep on them. I enjoy your posts you always give me a lot to think about.

Your botton line conclusion is spot on - yes we need professional help. I have asked my husband if he would consider counseling perhaps 10 times - if only to help me adjust to the change. He is not interested. He doesn't need counseling. He is fine. If I need it I can go. I went to a therapist right after I had to ask him to leave. Her suggestion was if we were to make any progress on resolving the marital issues - he had to be there. Otherwise, it would be strictly helping me find my way through this.

I can fill out the needs questionaire on my own. I can talk to Steve Harley on my own - both I believe will help. I will spend more times in the Plan A Plan B forum. I have not sent him a Plan B letter, I will work one up over the next day or so. I have quietly and patiently said everything I will put in that letter.

Yes there has been too much OW contact. No he did not write a no contact letter because I just discovered this resource perhaps two to three weeks ago. He did sit down with the OW and ask her to leave him alone.

The party comment made me take a deep breath. I just shook my head at him said "Sorry, I have already accepted the invitation and I would prefer that you allow me go on my own. Thanks." It made me tear up and when ever I show any emotion he runs like a rabbit - it is almost comical.

Agreed, it is not a perfect Plan B. I have been giving thought to ways of bringing our situation closer to the program. We are business partners. I can use email more by buying him a blackberry. Which he will either lose, drown or mangle in some other bizarre manner. My WS is very hard on all types of hand held equipment. We replace his cell phone every 4 months.

It is very hard to run a business and not talk to each other. We have employees, clients, bills - all manner of legal responsibilities that we share right now. I work from home - whenever necessary to avoid contact as much as possible. No contact would be impractical. We are doing our best to be professional - because we have no choice.

He is moving tonight to stay with a family member some 20 miles away - which is a welcome surpise!!!! His sister is worried about him and has invited him to stay with her for a few weeks until he sorts out his 'accommodation' issues.

The move will help reduce contact. I find it very draining dealing with this pod person who only looks like my husband. Quite often he won't even look me in the eye.

I don't believe the affair is my fault, but I do believe I allowed my marriage to become vulnerable. I was busy with work, professional associations, parental care, dog care, house care, meal preparation, entertaining - but truthfully very little direct one on one husband attentiveness.

I really wanted to keep my Dad at home and frankly I thought over the three years we cared for him - the quality of our life did suffer but there was an upside too. My husband didn't see the upside.

Our whole community seems to know about this now. I had to leave the party on Sunday earlier than I had planned. In the first 20 minutes - 6 people came over to tell me how sorry they were. I hate pity. It makes me itchy. I am not keen on melodrama - I abhor it in my own life. At some point in our lives no matter what happens I am going to try to get him to understand how hard a situation this is for the BS.

From my review of the material on this site, I believe you sometimes have to just do your Plan A and then Plan B - till they come to their senses. Till the affair dies the natural death that basically all relationships based on deceipt and thoughtlessness do.

I am pretty much completely in the dark on what is going on with the OW. I have no idea to what degree they are involved. The fact that he is moving to his sister's surprises me actually. He says he has been working so hard he just hasn't had time to find a new place.

There are funny moments though. When I was looking at his stash of wrinkle creams, I thought - he is going to want hair implants and a face lift next. Sure enough he asked me this morning what I thought it would cost to get his 'face fixed'. I just laughed.

Thank you for sharing your experience and understanding.

You are right I will be fine in time - no matter what happens.

Cheers,

P.B.

Hi Holiday,

I've driven through Rochester. I like the American West. It is beautiful country - burnt but beautiful.

I've been really busy the last few days between family etc. I did get a nice comment from Dad tonight that I thought I would share with you. "Honey - Right now you need to think about and remember the good times."

So, I am going to follow Dad's advise and post some of the particularly funny or poignant moments in our married life. Great therapy I think... !!!!!

My husband taught me to drive standard when I was in my late teens. He took me to a parking lot with his first brand new leased red Honda Prelude. He LOVED that car.
He sat there patiently while I violently rocked that baby across the lot in 5 foot long shuddering spasms of clutch grinding agony. I have never seen anyone's skin go so pale. He keep his eyes on the floor mat held on to the dash while sweating profusely and told me - "you're doing just fine honey!"

I hope you enjoy the book.... I know you will love those cookies.

Cheers,


PB

Good Afternoon PB,

How is your day going?

I've been sewing totes, getting ready for the fall (I sell on ebay).

Your Dad is a very wise man. What a wonderful thought to remember the good things. When things feel like they are going terribly wrong we will dwell on them too much at times. With positive thoughts we can hope to remain positive.

A Honda Prelude...I learned standard in my girlfriend's boyfriend Scott's Ford MACH 1. The linkage to shift was so close together and everytime I would shift Scott would bit his lip...what are your girlfriend's boyfriend's for??? Ha!

My boyfriend at the time had a 64' Vette, but it was in the garage being worked on more than on the road.

Oh the days of only having to worry about what your outfit for school was going to be.

Talk with you soon,

holiday

Hi PB,

I'm not sure what your wants are here. I don't know if you want to recover your marriage or if you don't. And I don't know if you can recover it or not. But if you do want to save your marriage (and I'm not trying to push you here), I would recommend you do the following:

1. Call Steve Harley. He does telephone counselling. He has helped many recover their marriages without the initial involvement of their wayward spouses. YES, YOU CAN START THE marriage recovery process ON YOUR OWN! I've seen many people do that here many times.

2. Post on General Questions II. That is where everybody is. There's not much traffic here or in the Plan A/B forums. General Questions is where you need to be. Put a call out to MelodyLane or Pepperband. They CAN help.

I wish I could be of more help to you but (fortunately for me) I don't have any first-hand experience with Plan A or B. I am one of the "lucky" ones. My husband gave up the OW the day I discovered the affair.



Well, that is a good sign! Me thinks all is not well in AffairLand. Usually, they just move in together, right? Or is the OW married? If she is, the first order of the day is to inform her husband. Exposure is your most powerful tool in ending the affair.



That's great. You've been reading. And you have a good grasp of the essentials. Can you see there is hope? If recovering your marriage is what you want...

A couple of other thoughts...



PB, why are you apologizing here, honey? Be a mirror. Reflect his question back at him(CALMLY...):

PB: Are you asking your wife to stay home so you can take another woman to a party?

PB's Husband: Well, we are separated.

PB: And married.


I feel the same way. HATE pity. Would rather almost that people hate me than pity me. So my solution is not to be pitiful. Tell people you "share the same concern for your husband that they do and are hoping for the best." HE's the pitiful one right now.

Keep your chin up, PB. Nurture yourself, right now. You've been through a terrible trauma. Take care of yourself.

Natalie

Hi Holiday and Natalie

Natalie, I have been thinking about this sentence in one of your previous posts.

He will need to do the work to uncover what character flaw in him allowed to make that poor choice.

I'm not sure that infidelity and flawed character are synonomous. Or rather I believe that many people who cheat are not flawed. If something like 60% of all marriages have some episodes of infidelity - then you would have to believe a very large percentage of married people have character flaws. I believe it is behaviour which has a complex base of conscious choice and physical factors.

By way of example, in Temple Grandin's book she described a breeding accident in chickens. In seeking to produce chickens with more white meat, breeders lost the little piece of DNA that allowed roosters to instinctively know the mating dance ritual that hens expected. They bred the romance out of the rooster. The hens simply would not get ready for action without the dance - the poultry equivalent of a movie and dinner. The hens weren't co-operating. The roosters were getting frustrated they began to rape the chickens often killing them. This problem became so pervasive breeders just thought that this was how roosters were. They cured it eventually. Sexual behaviour is complex.

I agree with Dr. Harley when he says there is a real instinctual basis to unfaithful behaviour -that good people when programmed with the right fulfillment of their needs will go into a kind of addicted to love crazy mode and virtually throw their lives away - abandon their children/spouses, jobs.

I think where the conscious choice comes in is recognizing how destructive this behaviour is and eliminating situations or scenarios which would put you at risk.

I love his love bank analogy. It equates emotions to a kind of accounting system that trigger behaviour. I like this site becauae the explanations make sense to me.

I don't believe my husband has a flawed character for an instance. He is a good kind generous honest man. I do believe he is a pod person right now for a number of complex reasons - some of which are physical. Maybe the whole older man - younger gal thing - is kind of a last call for a procreation "bingo' being put out by some chromosone we have yet to figure out.

When I explained the whole love bank paradigm to my brother. His first reponse was - What about unconditional love? Does this outlook mean that it does not exist? Is love solely conditional on needs being met?

What do you think girls?

Cheers,

P.B.

Hmmmm PB,

I have always thought "unconditional love" was still a condition.

I will have to think it over a bit more and post later today,

holiday

Hi PB,

Well, I had this whole long post written out that suddenly just evaporated...I'll try to recall what I had said...

PB, as I said before, your marriage is ON FIRE. So, I'm going to be frank with you. Time is of the essence here.



EVERYBODY has flaws. Do you believe you or your husband are flawless?



A (ONE) character flaw does not make a person completed flawed. We are defined by more than one choice, more than one episode in our lives.



What strikes me about this (and the tone of your whole post) is that you seem to be making excuses for your husband. I think we agree that unmet needs can make a marriage vulnerable to an affair, as can many other factors that Dr. Harley outlines in his concepts: lack of honesty, time together, joint agreement, failure to protect the marriage (boundaries)...

Needs alone don't explain the choice to participate in an affair. If that were the case, then I should have indulged in a few of my own. My own needs were certainly not being met a few years ago. And I didn't choose to have an affair for lack of opportunity, either.

It may sound like I'm being unforgiving of my husband. But that's not true. I am not tolerant of his actions, though. He made WRONG CHOICES. He is the first to admit that. A lot of things went into play to encourage him to make those choices. He had to dig within himself to uncover those vulnerabilities and strengthen them.



Short answer: I believe only God is capable of unconditional love. It is very UNhealthy to love unconditionally. In fact, I think it is humanly impossible. If someone were to subject you to constant horrendous abuse, any love you felt for them would die out. Healthy people need conditions on their love to protect themselves and others. We cannot allow people free reign to act however they like without consequence. There are natural consequences to actions.

Do a stellar Plan A, PB. He'll then have a favourable image of what his new marriage can be like. Then if your husband still chooses to indulge in the affair, write out your conditions to resume contact with him (Plan B letter). Seek help with this. It's tough stuff. And don't spare him the natural consequences to his actions. You'll do yourself and him a great disservice.

Yes, true love is and should be conditional.

Best of luck,
Natalie

Hi Holiday,

I love Ebay. When my Dad was living with us I would often be up with him a couple of times during the night. Often older people experience very vivid dreams of intense experinces they have had earlier in life. My Dad was an engineer in WW2, laying and defusing bombs throughout Europe, Normandy in particular. He saw horrific carnage and never really got over the guilt of surviving when so many died. I digress.

I have spent many a happy hour on EBay. When it is 2 a.m. and there is no one to talk to and you don't feel like reading. Hey you can shop. I started innocently enough - 1 set of lampwork beads and it slid downhill from there.

I crunch numbers for a living. I like it. It can be very satisfying particularly - predictive analysis. Being linear, I have never been crafty or good with my hands - until I started to bead. I really enjoy it. Ebay has created so many options for people who prefer to work from home. It was a brilliant concept.

Last month, I heard a radio item, where a BS sold her soon to be ex-husband's fancy sportcar - a lotus I believe for less than a $1 on Ebay.

Hope you enjoyed your day, I took my btother to a spinning class. We spent time with Mom and Dad. A good day....


Cheers,

PB.

Good Morning,

If you like, you can email me at **edit** and I can give you my ebay names (I sell under two different accounts for different items, handcrafted and retail).

I once saw a BS list his soon to be ex wife's wedding gown for a starting bid of $1.00 (with him in it modeling it for the pics. A studly biker dude.). I believe it may have sold for over $10,000.00. What people do to heal.

How are things going with your H? Did he make the move near his sister yet? When he talks with you, is it always business?

Great to hear you like to "spin". I tried that several time but my *ush hurt too much (need more quad strength I'm told).

Have a wonderful day,

holiday

Hi Holiday,

You are so right, we all heal in different ways. My brother made an interesting comment today.

"Emotional pain can be worst than physical pain - it is like you're heart has been in a train wreck."

While the WS all seem to act out the same types of responses and behaviours. The effect on the BS are very much the same too. Sleep disruption, weight loss, tears, confusion, anger, frustration, humiliation, stunned disbelief, depression.

I am finding with each week, life gets alittle easier. However, my productivity at work is way down, I'm spacey - I have locked my keys in the car twice in 3 weeks usually with the dog inside looking worried, lost a cell phone - and I stare off into space a whole lot.

Curious how our emotions really run the ship sometimes.

We went to a lovely film this evening. Wild Parrots of Telegraph Hill. A quiet understated 60 minute documentary whioh looks at a relationship between a man and a flock of wild parrots. It was quite a sweet film, although I dozed off at one point. My brother and I have been staying up late talking every night. Sleep has been minimal.

I was down in San Francisco in March and walked around Telegraph Hill and saw these parrots fly.

If you decide to give spinning a second chance, the best plan is to stay out of the saddle for most of the first few classes - it eliminates the problem.

I am sticking with the program with my WS. No unnecessary contact, supportive but not overly accommodating etc.

Cheers,

PB

Hi Natalie,

Thanks again for responding. I have been thinking about your post.

I have not figured out how to move this thread to General Questions. I would like to keep it intact because it allows me to see how my perspective is gradually evolving.

I don't believe I am trying to make excuses for my husband's behaviour. I am trying to understand it. Ultimately, if our marriage is to recover, I have to be able to forgive him, which is much easier to accomplish if I understand his perspective. Even though we agree that it is a mistaken or fogged outlook.

I also have to understand that he has shown signs of a vulnerability to a certain type of tempation which could ultimately destroy our life together, assuming it hasn't already. Together we have to improve our awareness of this and understand it sufficiently well to set up adequate defenses. You were able to work together with your husband to accomplish this - so clearly it can be done.

A good measure of this will be his choice - as it should be. It is a tough go waiting to see what they ultimately will decide to do with their life when it is so intrinsicly tied to what happens in your life.

I always try to look at the upside. I have not had this much time to myself in 25 years. It is allowing me the space to sort out how I would like to see the rest of my life unfold. I am reviewing my own needs, priorities, goals and aspirations. The mc is also helping me understand where our marriage needs attention. I am hoping that the time apart will allow my husband to gain perspective too. It is easy to take things for granted.

I really like my husband. I know when you read this post it is not showing him in a favourable light - but he has the heart to make someone very happy - I am just hoping it will be me.

I am still mulling over the whole unconditional love issue.

I am very happy you are one of the lucky ones and your husband snapped out of it the moment he realized what he might lose. I wish you both a very happy life together.


Cheers,

PB

PB, I've set up your own thread with a link to this one over on GQII. I'm not very computer savvy, but I think it worked. (I clicked on url and cut and pasted). Weekends are slow, though, so you may have to reply to yourself come Monday to "bump" yourself up to the first page again. I hope you find the help you need there.

Regards,
Natalie

Very interesting Paradise. Would like to carry this thought over to your GQII thread.

You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. That in itself is not enough to stop an A. It makes it frustrating for a BS who is thinking clearly to be able to see the problem but can't touch or fix it. Very frustrating.

That's why this place is good. We learn here what to focus on, how to concentrate and how to heal. The tendancy is to fix our spouses. Granted they sure need fixing but it is ourselves who need attention first. We need to get ourselves in a position of strength to deal with this crap. Most of us are not strong enough to deal with this stuff. Even the best of the best, have a hard time. So learning and applying the principals here provides good support.

Keep posting, ok?

Let me know if I can post your 'chicken story' on GQII. Think it maybe a 'refreshing' POV. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hi Orchid,

Please you can have 'free range' with the chicken story.

You are spot on how these types of situations take strength.

My husband dropped by to access files available only on my computer tonight - he spent about an hour here. We are very polite and professional, but at the end of it - he kisses the dog good-by - nods at me and leaves - quite likely to go to her.

After he left, I took a look at his cell phone bill. I still handle all the bills. I have had it on my desk for probably a week unopened because I did not think I was up to more pain.

They may not be living together yet but they certainly are on the phone alot. It makes me physically sick when I think about this situation. I think if the OW were someone I did not know so well who practically lives next door. It would easier. It would also be alot easier if I did not have to stay in regular contact with my WS for business reasons. I find the days I have to see him - very tough. He always manages to withdraw something out of my love bank.

Earlier today, I was clearing out closets and drawers. I found a box of old pictures -just photo after photo of very happy funny moments. I still find part of me does not believe this is happening. It just can't be real.

What is worse, is that another part of me finds it is getting increasingly harder to imagine us going from our current estrangement and his all out love affair with someone else - back to where we are once again a happy couple. I keep giving myself pep talks that people do this. That I can do it too, if I hold on, stay calm, focused - do the program. There are nights were that is really tough to visualize. I really admire those of you who have accomplished it....

Cheers,

PB

PB,

I am here with you. I think if there is a chance for you and you H that you can be once again a happy couple. I hope the wind blows soon and pushes his fog away.

Keep up on yourself. Again girl, you are a writer!! Start writing. You are so full of wit!

He is still is not living with her, hmmm and why not? He's free to do so, so could you still be on his mind, alot? I think so.

Keep breathing my friend and have a better day,

holiday

Hi Holiday,

I find I have a really up and down kind of existence these days. Last night was a low point - so today I took your advice and focused on 'keeping up'. I got my hair done. I am not sure men comprehend how well having shiny hair can lift a woman's mood.

I had a nice chat with an interesting woman in the salon who had travelled Europe doing the chorography for operas for over 35 years. She is probably in her 70s now and still living her life fully - moment to moment.

The dog and I dined at the beach, chip wagon chips soaked in malt vinegar with root beer as a chaser. We walked for a long way along the shore... lisening to Diana Krall. Actually he barked at the waves and legged it after tennis balls - while I lisened to Diana Krall on my new ipod. My brother's has some great ideas some times - music to soothe your heart - what a thoughtful gift.

I now have no less than 7 books on my night stand dealing with betrayal, deceit and infidelity. I use to read Brian Greene at night - ( The Elegant Universe, The Fabric of the Cosmos). I'd think about how there are 11 dimensions, while we can only perceive 3 with time being the fourth and wonder just what was up with the other 7. I don't like the change in reading matter.

On a positive note, my current woggy mess has helped a friend's 17 year marriage stay together. Her husband was not meeting her emotional needs. He shows his love by buying her things when she wants his attention and physical affection - not the loot. However, a husband whose greatest faults are: that he works too hard to provide luxury; and really likes to clean the house alot started to look pretty good compared to mine. They are back together. He brings her wildflowers now that he stops to pick by the side of the road on the way home from work. She loves it....

Hope you had a great day!

Cheers,

PB

Ditto on my reading material. Funny, that has been my type of reading my whole life. Since high school I have always read about relationships. Should have been a counselor or something...instead became a "cosmo tologist"!

I left the hairhood approx 16 years ago after the birth of our daughter. I decided that "hair" was really counseling and the work followed me home. Then I went into the judicial system (started as a 911 dispatcher...talk about troubles) and retired at 40 and became an ebay queen.

Now with my new found friends at the gym (and mind you, I live in the Las Vegas area), I have a new set of clients in need of counseling. Seems my single, gay and straight friends want the "key" to a long term relationship through my experience...if they only knew.

Glad to hear you have been helpful to your friend. Reason/season. I think people come into our lives just for that purpose. I have been befriended recently by a young woman who was the "OW", my, now I hear the other side and it isn't pretty. How messed up she is.

How about your readings being alternating books?

Well, off to bed. Hope you have a great Wednesday,

holiday

Hi Paradise Blue,

I know your pain. It has now been 18 months past DD day. It does get better. My husbands emotional affair pretty much finished on DD day. However, I did find there was more contact past DD day via email and one phone call, despite being promised that he would never contact her again.

It is definitely a rollercoast of emotions. I did not believe it was happening to us. It was during a very difficult period in our lives when our teenage daughter was suicidal.At the time, I told him that it had been the worst year of our lives. I did not know he was having an emotional/internt affair when I made this statement. I was coping. He was not.

In amongst this he was having a mid life crisis. He had sold his business and had basically retired at the age of 46. I continued working in my own business. He had too much spare time on his hands. This OW was after our money as well. When they broke up because I discovered all these love letters, her comments to him were that she had only been interested in the money. Her true colors came out.

When I found out. I was extremely angry and threatened to fight him in court. I told him, his lover was not going to enjoy our hard earned money. I did not Plan A as is suggested here but rather let him know the reality of what his life would be like. I exposed to our teenage children . He came out of his fantasy pretty quickly.

You do not say if you have children and whether they know. You also say that you are contining business as usual. Perhaps, you should look at your options of doing something with the company and the risk of him losing it.

A change I made Post DD day was treating myself to the hairdressers once a week. It is very therapeutic.

Take one day at a time

Hi PB,

Hmmmm, I think IC has something.

PB, Would you be able to investigate in some "changes" in your business that would affect him seriously or at least make him think? A little "fly in the oinment", so to speak.

IC, sorry to hear you are here too. My, the numbers of members here just keeps on growing. Scares me terribly. I hope you are past all this saddness.

Hope you are both having a nice day,

holiday

Hi Holiday,

It sounds to me as though you have a wise and kind heart. People are attracted to kindness.

Often I think there is alot we see without seeing - for example, when you instantly like someone- there is information being processed on many levels beyond what we are conscious of.

It is especially true of those have spent many years lisening to others - the counselors in life - who develop intuitive understanding.

Funny how we all connect, you are sitting in the Nevada desert and thousands of miles north I am watching the rain fall on very green green grass.

Technology is incredible. I got an email yesterday from a friend in the Netherlands who I had contacted to see if she would like to go cycling with my brother. She picked up the email while staying at a WCS research facility in Gabon. Wild, an afternoon watching the gorillas in remote rainforest - then a quick update by satellite to a friend in Canada.

I've always thought the key to long term relationships of any kind was to treat people really well, to view them as your most important treasure in life. I still think that.

I believe the true meaure of person is how well they treat others. All the other standards really don't capture a person's essence. Money, position, talent even are ridiculous measures of worth.

I remember warning my husband - that at some point you become what you do. If you lie - you become a liar, if you cheat - you become dishonest. Our actions accumulate within us - they form a sort of internal structure that can sometimes cripple and maim the spirit within. I believe people who harm others ultimately do themselves greater damage.

Whereas being kind is just a wonderful gift you give to yourself really. A lady I seldom have chatted with, at the dog park this week gave my dog a tennis ball toy he had snagged from one of her dogs. It is two tennis balls attached on a bungee cord. He loves this thing. He has been carrying it around all week - proud as punch. Every day she see him with it she laughs and now I make a point to go over to her to chat and hopefully make her laugh some more.

Cheers

PB

Hi Innocence_Lost,

You're name is very poignant. Surviving infidelity is innocence lost. I am sorry you are here.

We have no children. It just didn't happen for us. I had thought seriously about adopting at one point, but my husband was not that keen on the idea.

I did not expose my husband's affair. It was 8 months before I broke down and told even my brother. Anyone who reads this site - knows that was a big mistake.

I think alot about him but I spend very little time thinking about her - when I do it is a weird mixture of heartfelt dislike and pity.

I don't know what her motivations are - I suspect they are a mixture of wants. She is very keyed in on material wealth. This gal - a lawyer by trade sues people as a hobby. I have never known her when she was not involved in some form of legal action against former employers, landlords, etc. She can be utterly charming but also alittle frightening. I think he is both smitten and scared all at once.

Dr. Harley believes relationships that are based on deceit and thoughtlessness die. I whole heartedly agree. The relationship my husband has with the OW is chock full of deceit on both sides. He has been dishonest with her. She has been dishonest with him.

Could I use financial/company considerations to sever their relationship? No. Essentially, if I lawyer up - it would just set the field for her to go to battle. I think I am better off not to engage and to wait it out.

The whole prospect of the three of us sitting in court some day is just so creepy I can't go to sleep on it. I have to come up with something more cheerful.

My husband has always been fixated on knowing where I am. If he didn't know precisely where I was - he would call around until he found out. My Dad used to sometimes shake his head when I got home and tell me the hounds were out. Recently, I went up to friend's cottage and stayed a day longer than I planned to. No cell connection. As soon as I was back in cell range, he called with the same old edge of panic in his voice all upset. " I didn't know where you were." I laughed and replied " Are you not in effect leaving me for someone else? Doesn't that mean you are not going to know where I am for the rest of my life?" There was a very long pause at the other end of the line. My husband is still there inside the pod person - occasionally I hear his voice.

Cheers,

PB.

Hi, Holiday,
I have been lurking and learning for quite a while. Although, I am more fortunate than others in outcome, the necessity to understand the dynamics of my husbands affair was still there. I could not stay with my husband unless I somewhat understood what had occurred. I am no longer sad, a far cry to how I was before. I would consider myself to be quite depressed for a considerable amount of time and I suppose I still am at times, especially when I am premenstrual. It is and was very painful to have read 3 months worth of love letters. I never thought my husband was capable of such exquiste and tender words, words he had never used on me.I never considered my husband a romantic. He was a no nonsense sort of person and here he was after only 4 phone calls and 4 emails, madly in love with a woman on the other side of the world sending her flowers, gifts and cards. They had declared their unconditional love for one another and were soul mates. Mind you, they had not exchanged photographs and had never met. Go figure.

Paradise, My husband had had a cancer scare. He was facing mortality issues as well as a daughter who was giving us ******. He told me that it was an escape for him. An escape where they were both planning to leave their spouse to grow old together.

His emotional affair lasted 9 months and during this time, he was quite indifferent and distant to me. At the time, i was so wrapt up in our daughter, other children, work, and committees I was on that although I was aware of his behaviour, I was in denial. I suspected, but could not find anything.

On DD day, I exposed to my mother, father, brother and children. Those letters were so powerful. They were communicating every day. My husband told her he was willing to give up everything for her. So, On DD day, I told him give up everything. I went to see our bank manager and froze all accounts and assets. It was very easy to do. Apparently, if there are marital problems and there is joint ownership, one party can request this until it is sorted out.

Hi IC,

Have you read Harley's books - Surviving an Affair and His Needs Her Needs. This site also has excellent telephone MC services. I think with EAs it is easy to minimize them but I feel they are more dangerous than many isolated PAs of short durations.

Some dynamic in your marriage allowed this to happen. You can affair proof it. But I think it takes committed effort from both parties. Sit down with your husband and fill out the emotional needs questionaire. There is a marriage builders weekend seminar in October. It would be good to go if you can convince him.

There are many VETs on the General Questions II who have successfully dealt with this kind of situation. Read all the threads - there is excellent advise there.

Sad but true - you can't really believe anything he says with respect to the OW. It will take him a long time to regain his perspective.

Mine told me the EA only ocurred over the course of one summer. I think instead it starts from the first act of deceit. The first time she came on to him and he did not tell me about it. That was 7 years ago when we first met her, which means for almost 28% of our married life he has been in an inappropriate relationship with another woman, often in our home! It is very sobering.

Take care of you - you will need lots of time to heal. Spending alitte money on yourself is an excellent idea right now, thank God for beauty salons and shoe stores!.

Cheers,

PB

Ditto on the shoe stores!!!

Good Evening...

I wish I could have more words of wisdom. I am not sure how I would cope with my H having an EA verses a PA, yet he did have to get a bit emotionally involved to have the PA's.

I had never asked him to fill out the EN Questionare. I had made copies back in November of last year (around Dday) but never gave them to him. Just the other day I placed them in his bag for work (he works 24 hour shifts as a firefighter) and told him if he had a chance to read over it and fill it out if he liked. I never filled them out either. Well, today he told me it was too difficult to do. Time has past and he feels we have been working very hard on meeting most of each others needs. We read over them this afternoon and he might try doing it this week on a 72 hour shift.

He says he thinks the A's happened because he got "caught up in it all". The deceit, the secrets and what she was promising (same with the first, however the second I feel was a "fatal attraction" and scared him. Before I found out he wanted me to obtain a concealed weapons license.).

People do such stupid things under the "lust fog" (that's what I call it). Once the dope high wears off, they are looking at a relationship they were already in with even more adjustments to be made. They forget they are 50% of the equation.

Both of you continue to take care of yourselves.

PB, thank you for your compliment. I do pride myself in being kind to everyone I come into contact with which does frighten alot of people here in Vegas.

holiday

Hi Holiday,


Actually, I do believe the best wisdom I have heard yet was from you, something about just relaxing and trusting what will be - should be.

My husband dropped by with papers for me tonight. Sticking to Plan B I cleared out - so as to avoid contact and I left him my Plan B letter. I guess he did not see it because it is still here un-opened.

I was at a friend's having tea, her garden balcony overlooks the OW's door. I stood and watched my WS bounce across the courtyard carrying a quart of milk. I guess she needed milk. It seemed so domestic ... I honestly don't understand what this beautiful young woman wants with my completely bald very weather beaten wrinkled 52 year old husband. He must have told her we have a heck of alot more cash than we do. Oh well I guess everyone is entitled to a surprise!

We went on to join Mrs. J knitting class tonight. My girlfriend is having a baby - and her maternal urges are stirred up to the point she wants to be able to knit booties. Mrs. J was a tonic. She is an 82 Yugoslavian grandmother. When I asked her if she was married. She said not any more - he died in 1971 - "Thanks be to God" Apparently, he drank and misbehaved in general. I asked:
You have been alone since you were 48, hasn't it been lonely? She replied: Nope - it has been great. I sleep when I want to. I eat when I want to. No one bosses me around and I don't have to put up with any cranky panky.

Cranky panky is that not a great word for it. They get to panky and we get to be cranky. It so captures both sides of the experience. I won't be able to think of it any other way now...

Hope you had a good day!

Cheers,

PB

Hi Paradise,

It has been 18 months since my husbands emotional affair. He pretty much stopped it on DD day and has been a loving and attentive husband and father. I cannot complain.
Despite this, I need to heal and am nearly there. Part of that healing is the understanding of affairs and prevention. I completely trusted my husband. Harley says we should not blindly trust and this is what I did. I never thought him capable but I was wrong.
When I suspected, I would indirectly discuss people who had affairs and his response would be that there was no excuse for an affair. If you are not happy, you tell one another and if it cannot be resolved you then divorce. This was the thinking he conveyed to me. Unfortunatley, this was not reflected in his actions. It took him a long time to admit that he had had an affair. AS they had never met and obivously had not had sex, then there was no affair. He did not even understand that there could be an emotional affair.

I believe this is how it started with your husband. The line was crossed emotionally, but no physical contact. It was flirting, flattery and admiration which then eventually got out of hand. He did not believe there was anything untoward and was obviously enjoying the attention.

I have read much. I have not read Surviving an Affair. I am not from the States and this book is not easily available here but I will order it through Amazon.

I believe men's greatest need is admiration. My husband's OW was not younger nor prettier than me. How old is the OW. Has she previously been married? Does she have children.

There is a veteran called Mortarman on this board who offers great advice. . I have read numerous posts of his. His wife had left him for the OM and he turned the situation round. I hope he posts to you.

It is interesting that your husband still inquires about your whereabouts. Why is this?


Enjoy your weekend,

IL

Hi IC,

The OW - I haven't really thought about her alot. Today I really gave it some thought.

She is in her mid thirties now, quite pretty, extremely smart, with many emotional/psychological issues which include: severe depression since teenage years, for which she is on daily meds and in therapy for; and a personality disorder which results in conflict issues - she is on speaking terms with only 1 family member and aside from my WS has only 1 other real friend that I can think of.

She has the wit and charm to make friends but eventually her limitations kick in and she abuses and loses them. She is estranged from dozens and dozens of people. She has had only two boyfriend relationship of fairly short duration that I know of in her entire life and both ended badly.

Her problems result in it being difficult for her to hold down a job. She is lawyer who gets fired alot. Then she turns around and sues them and will not work for 1 to 2 years.

On the flip side, when she is on - she is the most captivating and charming woman I have ever met. The woman my husband is in love with is a total fantasy.

I can't say I feel threatened by her looks or youth. I am not a complete slouch in the looks department and there is simply no comparison in personality. Youth is fine, but every age has it pluses too. I like being 50. I think I have a better understanding of what is important now. I didn't have when I was younger.

I realize now I have what she wants but can't have : a very nice family who I am close to, lots of great friends, professional/financial success, a long happy marriage - 25 years is a good stint, and most importantly a happy balanced outlook on life. I think if she is incapable of friendship - lasting love will be impossible.

I was a sympathetic kind friend to her - but I think it must be hard to be day in day out miserable for good reason - and yet be around someone who is consistantly cheery.

Why she wanted to break us up - I have no explaination for. It doesn't make sense to me. It may be that my WS is the first real male friend that she has had. On her own, it wouldn't have lasted long - within the safe confines of our friendship - it blossomed. Or this may be a money thing - who knows. I think there may be a mixture of desires.

Do they have a chance of being happy together - no. People with her limitations are going to make themselves and those around them unhappy. I would say she scares me a bit. Frankly, because she is beyond my imagination, I could not imagine befriending a couple and then immediately trying to physically seduce the husband. When that didn't work, adopting a more subtle type of seduction through flattery. She understood my WS need for admiration and attention better than I did. Not withstanding that it took many years of pretty much daily effort. And I strongly suspect, if I hadn't been slightly overwhelmed by parental care, it would have taken much longer.

What I find hard to forget is the way she tried to destroy my respect and love for my husband, by rubbing my nose in it so to speak. Someone normal - would not have been been so vicious.

If you asked me two years ago, I would have said I was very happily married to just about the nicest guy on the planet. I am no longer happily married and he is definitely not acting like the nicest guy on the planet.

Ultimately, it takes two to tango. And he certainly seems to want to dance! Clearly this is not just her doing. He started to make wrong choices from the get go probably because important needs of his were not being met. I also think he has been dishonest with her. When he broke off contact for about a 1.5 years - it must have hurt her.

She has taught me three very valuable lessons: 1) Not to take things for granted. Marriages need constant upkeep. They are like a garden. 2) Not to be naive - most woman would not let their husband spend up to an hour a day for years with another very pretty woman - I thought we were all friends - what a dumb bunny! 3) To use caution when dealing with someone who is clearly dsyfunctional. I befriended her because clearly she needed a friend. I should have thought longer and harder on why she didn't have any.

On the plus side, I am starting to enjoy living on my own more - gelato for dinner tonight - in front of 2 chick flick movies. I've relaxed about the situation. People will make their own choices - unhappy or happy. I know asking him to leave was absolutely the right thing to do. You can't be part of triangle and not be messed up. Being messed up is such a waste of good days, fine weather, life!

I am happy that you and your husband have reconciled. I hope you have a great weekend.

Cheers,

PB

Hey PB,

Life is funny. Earlier today you came to mind and then I thought about CarolHK's story and how you might find it helpful. I tried to do a search on it but never found it. I logged in tonight and guess who had posted an update? The last time she posted was a year and a half ago! I believe things happen for a reason. Here's the link to her story... I encourage you to read her most recent post as well. Carol's Story

Cheers,
Nat

Good morning PB...

Hope your weekend is bright.

Hmmm, I must say the OW sounds like the semi new friend I have made at the gym. Young, on anti depressants, attractive in her late 30's etc, failed relationships, three children with different men (possibly one or both not from the husband she lived 7 years with). She recently went to her XH's business function and while under the influence she had relations with a married friend of hers.

She became suicidal after the fact...she just wanted his attention. She has no clue on how devastating all this will be to the MM's family and wife. She just moves forward not understanding why she now has lost so many friends (married or not) in her circle.

I think she has enlightened me to the world of the "OW". Why, you might ask do I still associate with her. I am the "motherly" type and I guess for some strange reason I think I can help her (probably not). She was placed with me by my personal trainer. He thought she would give me some competion (all this before I knew her past) not knowing I will usually back down and let the other guy (if he needs it more than I do) win.

My H even made a statement about watching out for her (glad he's been listening to me for the past few years). She is a dear, but I keep her at arm's length.

I agree with IC's "admiration" idea. Men need so much especially as they age. I need a nice hot cup of tea, a good book and a garden for the same endorphins!

Bad news last night, someone has used my debit card # and charged over $450.00 to my little ebay account. Been working on it all morning. What is up with people? The bank is working with me, but what a hassle. They suspected fraud immediately and froze my account.

Well, need to get my Saturday morning list done.

Peace,

holiday

Hi Natalie,

Thanks very much for the link. That is a great thread. I've copied the to do list below for other readers reference. It is an inspiring story.

Here is more on 180: I got this off http://www.divorcebusting.com. I hope
this helps. DivorceBusting suggests doing a 180.
1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or
implore!
2. No frequent phone calls
3. Do not point out good points in marriage
4. Do not follow him around the house
5. Do not encourage talk about the future
6. Do not ask for help from family members
7. Do not ask for reassurances
8. Do not buy gifts
9. Do not schedule dates together
10. Do not spy on spouse
11. Do not say "I Love You"
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get
busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends,
etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start
the conversation) be scarce or short on words
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his
whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have
had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you
are going to move on with your life, with or without
your spouse
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull
back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more
important, realize what he will be missing
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show
your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him
someone he would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which
may be a while)
21. Never lose your cool
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic
23. Do not argue about how he feels (it only makes
their feelings stronger)
24. Be patient
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really
saying to you
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you
want to speak out
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh &
focus on all the other parts of your life that are not
in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any
words you can say or write
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you
are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with
your spouse
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than
50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in
absolute negatives because he is hurting and scared
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad
you feel
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

I'm going to order Michelle's books. If anything I will end up with a great library of marriage manuals.

Cheers,

PB

Hi Holiday,

So far the weekend has been fine. Cleaning house, errands, car washing etc. WS had to track me down at the beach today to pick up the dog. I decided not to take his calls for the last two days. No pressing business reasons to do so - right now. Still haven't given him the Plan B letter, although I suspect he may have read it on my computer while searching for some price lists this morning.

He wanted to walk and talk! He was actually a wee bit teary! I smiled made my way back to the car - gave him the leash and waved a cheery good-by. Very glad I had just had my hair done!

The dog went crazy - Dad and Mom at the beach at the same time WHOOO he was running estatic circles around us at full tilt. I should lisen to my dog more. He never liked the OW -would never let her touch him -barked at her alot. They know!

I watched a very touching film last night - Schultze Gets the Blues. Although, I had to play parts of it twice because I wasn't sure I was getting it. Quite lovely.. It has this little piece of music in it that keeps jigging away in my brain.

I'm really enjoying the ipod. I literally have it glued to my head at all times. My brother filled it with just great music. Music really does just reach in and soothe you...

Sorry to hear about the debit card hassle. I've always used paypal on ebay without any problems whatsoever. Hope they work it out for you...

Have a great weekend!

Cheers,

PB

Hi Holiday,

The weekend took a decided turn for the worst today.

Lovely weather - so I geared up for a bike ride and was heading out my front door. When I ran smack into the OW. I have carefully structured my movements to minimize the likelihood of running into her. She gave me a big smile and looked back over her shoulder. I could see her two little rat dogs rounding a corner. With a gut dropping sensation, I knew who would be holding their leash - wearing jaunty new clothes - and walking with a spring in his step.

I just put my head down and biked away - went 15 miles out and found myself some very deserted shoreline and just wailed and wailed and wailed - like some 4 year old whose cotton candy is in the mud.

I cry alot these days - probably an hour or two a day. I cry in the bath, when I'm driving, when I'm spinning (dark room, loud music and so much sweat no one notices the tears) and always before I go to bed. It is like I have big iceberg of grief inside and the tears just gradually melt it away. My brother stressed keeping a routine, staying busy - finding refuge in the mundane. But for me balling my eyes out seems to work best.

When I couldn't cry anymore and I felt just completely empty. I opened a cold beer ( handy foresight) and filled myself up with B.B. King - and thought about my predicament.

I have spent the better part of 20 years coming up with elegant solutions for a wide variety of problems - companies, institutions and governments get themselves into. Surely I can deal with one besotted old fool.


The counter intuitive behaviour recommended by this site and the divorce busters site - are only counter intuitive from the BS point of view. They make perfect sense from the WS point of view. BS fill up with dark emotions you can't help it. Those dark emotions are what actually destroy the relationship - not the fogged behaviour of the WS. Once you lose the love in your love bank - you have absolutely nothing left to work with.

My Nana use to say - Happiness is the best cosmetic. Is my husband going to want walk into a home filled with lit candles and a Katie Holmes lookalike who whispers one compliment after another. Or is he going to want to visit his 50 year old wife - who is curled up - pale faced - in agony because he is hurting her so bad. I would say the former -right.

If I let them destroy the love I have for him. I will lose big time. I lose my marriage, I may lose my perspective on the last 25 years of my life. I will have let them diminish me as a person. The love I have for him is one of my best parts. There is a real danger of becoming - angry, bitter, just nasty and living like that for a long time. I will be inevitably sitting in some courtroom some day - not only watching her pillage my finances but knowing I am a lesser person for it. Yuck!

My Dad was a great parent because - he really believed in his kids. Nothing could shake his belief in us. If we screwed up - there were never condemnations - just the question "Well what did you learn?"

What am I learning from this? I really think this is about the power of love and faith. Can I love my husband through this? Can I continue to believe in him? What do I need to do to accomplish both?

I think really this a time for prayer, remembering the good times - and most ironically for being happy - because happy is what will work to bring everything alive again. Unhappy will simply let it die...So on a happy note...

One of our favourite memories as a couple - was the night after our wedding. We didn't leave for our bargain basement cruise (a revamped WW2 hospital ship) till the following day. His grandmother gave us a party at her cottage on an island. She was in her 80s and all her friends attended it. At the end of the do, she hired the local ferry boat and driver and everyone piled into for boat cruise. We sat at the rear of the boat and they sang love songs to us. All songs from the 30s and 40s.

When they dropped us off on the ferry dock to return home. We stood and watched them motor off. The water was like glass under a big full moon and their voices drifted back to us in perfect harmony. It was magic.

Cheers,

PB

Hi Paradise,

I posted to you earlier on but I just noticed that it did not go through. I thought of you over the weekend and read Carols story. I suppose I instigated some of Carols tactics unconsciously post DD day. I wanted to share them with you.

DD day. I find love letters and cards. I exposed to my parents and teenage children. The children were disgusted with him. I told him to leave and that the children and I could live without him. He refused, saying he loved me and his family. I told him if he loved me, he would not have done what he did. How could he have in all conscious been communicating with this woman promising her the world and then facing me everyday. He refused to leave and slept in the car that night. He however continued to communicate with the OW for 2 weeks. I later found that he needed closure, to know that she was all right bla, bla. Anyway, he told her to get on with her life and that I had found out. She was most abusive towards him and really let him have it. A far cry from the sweet angel of her letters. Anyway, that was good for me. I did not insist that he leave.He came back inside the next night.

It is what I did over the next few days that stunned me when I think back. I was in shock horror over what I had found. I had complete trust in my husband. I would have trusted him with my life. I dont know if I can say that now. He knew how much I valued honesty and how I kept my distance from people I did not consider genuine. Despite this, he pursued this woman. It was an emotional affair and not physical but to me it was just as bad, if not worse. He was leading this double life. I thought over how all my married life, my husband, children and work always came first. I always came last. Infact,I did not even come into the equation. I fitted in with them. My husband and I were very good at making money, investing etc but not at enjoying it. I was a very conservatively dressed woman, as I felt that in my profession, I needed to be to be taken seriously.

After DD day, I was in so much pain as you are now. I lost so much weight. I did not know how sincere my husband was and whether he would go rushing back to her behind my back. I had so much anger as well. The thought of him abandoning his children to live in another country was sickening.
I became quite depressed.

I had lost so much weight in a matter of weeks- the infamous infidelity diet. I was actually looking quite good. I wore my clothes quite loose anyway but now they were too big for me. I went on a shopping spree. Over the next few weeks, I changed my mode of dress dramatically. I started wearing fitted, fashionable and younger looking clothes. I went to the hairdresser and told him I wanted a completely different look. A new hairstyle and colour. What had occurred had changed my life so much. I would never be the same person again. Over that month, My external appearance changed drastically, the weight loss, the stylish clothes and new hairdo, people did not recognize me. As some said to me, have you had one of those makeovers like in TV. I said yes, but without the surgery. I looked 10 years younger.

My husband sat up and took notice of this change. Privately, I was grief stricken as you are now. I had this knot in my stomach which I thought would never go away. I had lost my appetite. I was not sleeping. I did not let him know this and soldiered on. I became focussed on my appearance more than I had ever before. My husband noticed other men would look at me. He thought he was going to lose me. I believe that because of those immediate changes post
DD day, my husband did not suffer as much from withdrawal as what he may have. He was concentrating too much on me and my new look. He loved it. I enjoy how I look now.

I know you have bought a few new shoes. Have you thought of changing your look, something which will make your husband sit up and take notice. Look after yourself. You are indirectly letting him know that you can live without him. My husband told me that his wake up call was how close he came to losing me, especially when I did not break down (not in front of him anyway) and started looking after myself.

I really feel for you Paradise. You are a kind and honest woman. The true colours of this OW will eventually surface, as she will not be able to hide her dysfunctional personality. It is only a matter of time. Please be patient and look after yourself. Go out with friends.

Innocence_Lost

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paradise, your post brings tears. I am sorry your weekend started out as such.


Girl, you are a writer. Please start writing soon.

I wish we lived closer. We could have a long walk and talk. I really believe all this will get better for you and very soon.

I think this too. My face has seemed to age so much since my H's first A. I am drained when I dwell on it. Then with the second, even more so. The more my H and I talk about why we became vunerable to an A makes me feel more at ease. He needs his ego stroked more than I do. Perhaps, in your H's case, the OW sees him as you did 25 years ago and is playing on that part of his ego. You can do the same. May I suggest something for the next (should it occur) encounter? Stop and smile at them, really. Even tell your H in front of her how great he looks. I mean this. Fight fire with fire.

I agree wholeheartedly with IC. Just you wait and see.

I will say an even bigger, extra prayer for you today,

holiday

Hi IC,

Thank you very kindly for the encouragement. No I have not bought any new clothes. While I am also losing weight, for the most part I still have items that fit.

After reading your, comments, I looked at my wardrobe with a critical eye. I have really classy business attire, sport wear, nike golf, patagonia, columbia gear but absolutely nothing really sexy. I stopped doing sexy in my late 30s I think. For two reasons, 1) men do not really lisen to a sexy clad female. I really like being lisened to; and 2) My husband in no way approved.

I once came back for a weekend jaunt to Nassau with a girl friend, in a halter, mini, corn rows and lots of eye make-up. I had left in a long skirt loose fitting sweater -chignon - no make up. My husband stared at me for a solid 2 minutes without recognizing me. When he did he was cranky for a week. It looked liked I had way too fun!

With the OW, he loves her to do sexy. I think in some measure she is like an accessory. He told me that when he has her on his arm - all the other men look at him with envy and it makes him feel great. Do other men think like that? Worst yet, when did he start thinking like that?

When I look at them together they look mismatched. She looks younger than her years and he looks much older than 52 from the neck up. She is at least five inches taller, in heels taller still. The man looks like a wizened bald little garden gnome beside her. There is just a measure of the ridiculous in it.

I took the afternoon off today and popped up to a swanky area in town - to buy something sexy or at least feminine. First I sat and had a glass of wine and watched a fashion show and then scanned the crowds of people for women in their 40s for 50s who were sexy. For the most part, I didn't see many. Women in their 40s or 50s have been working two jobs for say 20 years, career/raising a family, everyone else has come first, most of the money goes on the kid's backs - and somewhere in the shuffle they've often lost sexy.

I actually like being 50, I passed the threashold about 10 years ago - where I definitely look better with clothes than without. My definition of hot is that you look you're best naked. I'm OK with that. If I stay miserable long enough, I will likely be getting back into my size 4 jeans - which I didn't think was going to happen again in this lifetime - but I wouldn't look forward to it. I found when I was really thin - I was more fragile - I got sick more easily. Every stage in life has it charms...

After mosing around for a couple of hours, with the dog in tow. I ended up buying a quite lovely peasant skirt from Guess - brown shirred chiffon- cute and a matching T-shirt. I haven't owned a peasant skirt since the 70s. Not exactly a shopping spree - but a start...

Cheers,

PB

Hi Holiday,

I must admit knowing that anythime I walk out my front door there is the possibility of running into hubby and his young honey - is deflating - even for a cheery soul like me. I find it curious, that I am the only one who is mortified in this situation. They both seem pleased with life right now.

Oh well Mom would say if you have lemons - you make lemonade!. I need to get over it - so at the very least I don't run like a bunny whenever I see them together.

Had a good day today - went shopping, later on I attended my first meditation session. I have been reading alot of different texts on buddhism for the last 6 years or so.
Being able to meditate - is a great way of stretching and relaxing your brain - and bringing your emotions into balance.

It was cool, four of us sat on a lovely persian rug - read a couple of verses from The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying - and thought about the various ways of bringing compassion into our life. I need to be VERY compassionate right now.

Never having done anything like that before I had a alittle awkward start. We had just commenced, a candle was burning, they strike a gong and you sit cross legged and try to clear your mind when the chap next to me said. "Excuse me do you have a walkman going - I think I can hear very faint music. In fact I may just be tuning into Elvis -not the divine! Sure enough, my ipod was not turned off. I had trouble not giggling for the next 10 minutes - I was actually bitting my lip to stop from laughing.

Thanks Holiday for so patiently lisening to me rant. Sometimes you really just need to rant, maybe not make a lot of sense, and maybe even be lame and it is lovely of you to put up with it.

Cheers,

PB

Hi IC,

I am replying to my own post - because I realize it is bollocks? I was thinking in stereotypes yesterday and when I was writing those comments I had just woken up and was groggy.

There really is nothing like having some Size 4 - Extra Tall lass shagging your husband to put your confidence in the toilet.

Older women are sexy - in all shapes and sizes. Hey they have had more practice at it! Catherine Deneuve will be hot when she is 85!

Sex is in your head. It is all about confidence, style and connecting and giving to a man. Most older women have been doing that for decades. I have been part of couple pretty much steadily with the current 7 weeks an exception since I was 14 - What could be more feminine?

What isn't sexy is curling up on the couch in your husband's old terry bathrobe because it still smells of him, eating dry cereal out of a box, and sobbing through light romantic comedies! Now that is a turn off!

Cheers,

PB

Good Afternoon,
I couldn't have said it any better PB!
My H doesn't think you need to be a size 4! It's what you do with what you've got that counts.
I am petite, but a size 4 was only around when I was in 6th grade.

I'm fit and fun! My H also says "sexy" is in my smile. When things get me down, I wear it on my face so much. Bums him out. When I am happy..."he" radiates.
And yes, men are "shallow" when it comes to someone on their arm that they can show off. But if she is as shallow, his friends will pick up on it very soon and will tell him to move on.

I feel men like a confidant woman that dresses sexy sophisticated (is that a term???). I think I look best in my old Levi 501 and Harley boots, yeeha!

We are leaving tomorrow for a 6 day tour on the bike with 20 other firemen. All men except me and one other girl and she rides her own bike.

I will chat when we get back. Take a deep breath when things get you down. And remember, every day is a new day.

Hope you have a nice week PB.
Peace,
holiday

Hey Holiday!

Have a great trip..... It sounds like it will be a blast.


Cheers,

PB

Journal,

I watched As Good As It Gets Last Night, - great movie. There is a part where all three characters are in the car and they are talking about Simon's break with his parents - Where Melvin says " Some people have happy lives, they picnic by the lake with friends and eat noodle salad. That is their life noodle salad."

My hand is up for noodle salad. There is a dark side to life, but you don't have to live life that way. You can choose not to - you can choose noodle salad.

I'm spending alot of time these days at a beach near me. People swim, kite surf, wind surf, sail, canoe, kayak, run, bike, roller blade, walk their dogs - leash free. All the dogs are smiling. All the people are smiling. It is a happy place. I chat with friends, walk lisening to music, read, throw tennis balls in the water for the dog - he loves to swim. It is free - you don't even pay to park. You don't even need a car. You can get there by bus. It is a noodle salad slice of life for anyone who cares to show up. When I leave with regret usually because the sun is setting, I feel better. Ultimately, feeling better is what it is all about.

Journal,

I had a girlfriend over for dinner last night, on my way back from driving her home. I was hit by cabbie while proceeding through an intersection after being waved on by a police officer. The other driver was charged but he is fine. The dog and I are fine, although he was pretty agitated and I will likely be really sore and bruised for a while. My car is not fine, it looks like it will be a write off.

Wow, this is just my year for drama. On the bright side, I will have to get a new car ... and I will not do my usual frugal thing and just buy the most practical used vehicle possible. I am going to go for something new, racy, and most defintely red.

My nana said that men in their 50s, either have a work crisis, a marriage crisis or they buy a convertible. I have been really wishing that my WS had opted for the convertible - hey maybe I will instead. The dog would look great with his ears flying in the wind....

Journal,

We'll be made it back to the beach tonight, both alittle worse for wear. I have a sore shoulder, the dog has a sore paw, my earphones are duck taped and we are both walking like a four door ford got the better of us.

But, we arrived in a spiffy new rental car with loads of intriguing buttons.

There are wooded trails at this park. Tonight we started there because the monarch butterflies have arrived. For a couple of weeks every year the woods here are full of thousands of monarch butterflies. They are incredible. I startled perhaps four hundred out of a sycamore grove - they whirled out in a dance of colour. I wish I could paint. Tomorrow I am taking my camera.

Walking along, I thought how life is just a multitude of small co-incidences. Last night, my girl friend and I decided to play scrabble. I seldom beat her but the games are hard fought and long. It was much later than I am normally on the roads - 1.30 a.m. The route I would normally take home was closed to traffic. When the police officer waved me through I slowed to smile at her and mouth thank you. Did that get me hit or save our lives? My car no longer has a front end. If the cab had hit me a couple feet further back - my noodle salad days would be pretty much over.

My Dad says now - that every day he wakes up breathing is a gift - so true!

I called my husband today to tell him about the accident. He was concerned. I kept saying I'm fine - no problem. He called back 10 minutes later to hear me say it again.

Two years ago - he would have dropped everything and raced home to see for himself. Maybe my marriage is over.

Journal,

My WS showed up at my door out of the blue about midnight last night. To see if I was OK - I guess. I hobbled around before I opened the door, changing from flannel to silk, quick hair brush - etc. As soon as he walked in and started talking I realized it was the pod person - not hubby. Cranky about the accident and the prospect we may not recover the true value of the car. (He takes immaculate care of our cars. They last forever.)

I have been driving accident free since I first got a license - 34 years. The other driver was charged with failing to obey a police officer - so no deductible. I and the dog are alive. What is there to complain about? Yes, we will probably lose money - but frankly I am really happy to just be breathing.

I miss my husband. This pod person is just a big pain. I should have stuck with the flannel. He stayed five minutes and left. I was happy to see him go.

When I read the other posts on this site. What impresses me most is that somehow, in the face of extraordinary bad behaviour, people keep their love alive. They maintain the faith they have in their spouse. I guess they manage to see and remember the whole person - not just the characterization that an episode of bad judgement provides.

I married just a wonderful man - 25 years ago - patient, generous, kind, honest, caring, affectionate, fun, curious, gifted, - 100% sweet and he stayed that way for 23 years.

Whereas this alien entity I'm dealing with now. Is not someone I want to be in the same room with. I keep telling myself he has been abducted - cut him some slack and stay clear, until either your faith, love or time ransoms him. I hope that is sooner rather than later. Next time I see him I am going to check under his collar for scales!

Journal,

Weekend slipped by really fast. Dined out with a group of friends Friday, a couple who make documentories - they are starving but happy happy happy. Another friend at the table just had a kidney transplant and is on tenderhooks to see if it will be accepted by his body successfully. Another couple trying for a second child - just had a miscarriage. Life is up and down for everyone.

Since the accident I have not cried much at all. It actually hurts to either cry or laugh. The cabbie may just have knocked some sense into me. Life is way too short and uncertain - to waste any of it being miserable - when miserable is the one thing that won't actually get you what you want.

Hiked wooded trails both Saturday and Sunday with a friend - great weather, excellent conversation.

Taking care of my parents, has taught me that life shrinks as you get older- particularly when you stop driving. So I accept all invitations, two luncheons, two dinners this week. Emailed my brother a yes to the cycling trip. There is no point saying no - you never know how many more opportunities you are going to get to do things - see people.

When I mentioned it to the WS - he said: "Aren't people shooting each other over there (Croatia). You'll be sleeping by the side of the road you know." No shooting, but with my brother's taste in travel I will be sleeping by the side of the road and given his expectations on milage -I will probably prefer to stand the entire flight home. On the up side there will be starry nights to look up at and the sound of the sea to fall asleep by....

I've decided I am going to treat the separation - as a husband holiday. I am going to buy floral sheets, paint our bedroom - something soft maybe peachy. Our home is way too masculine. I've signed up for a digital pbotography course. I am going to try something new every week - from food to sports to whatever. I am going to treat every day exactly like what it is - a blessing.

PB,
Just wanted to let you know we arrived home safe last night.
Spent my bday yesterday for about 600 miles from Albuquerque, NM to home here in Vegas.
Great dinner Sunday night at my most favorite rest in the world.
Sorry to read of your accident and glad you and puppy are fine.
RED, yes red will do nicely. Warm baths with salt and baking soda should help your soreness.
I will post more later.
Have a better day,
holiday

Hi Holiday,

A Very Happy Birthday to you, I trust it was a memorable one - hopefully wearing the levis and Harley boots!

So how was the trip? I would bet the whole of the six days flew by seemingly in an instant. I love road trips. You never know what is going to happen and the landscapes can be breathtaking.

Hope you had just a great time.

Cheers,

PB

Journal,

Plan B is completely necessary at this point - but lonely.

I have been thinking of happy moments.

In all of the years we were married, my WS had a knack for showing up when I needed him. Over the holidays one year, I was returning by train up north to meet him to go to a New Year's Eve party that evening.

The train broke down about an hour out of town in minus 20 below farenheit weather. I watched out the window as the conductor, engineer and stewards stood out in the cold with a map - trying to figure out exactly where we were. If I could paint, I would paint only tableaus of men thinking. They look so cute. It was a sunlit snowy woodland scene straight out of Norman Rockwell.

The train got really cold fast. A group of us decided to walk out to see if we could find a road. After a 15 minute hike through the woods we came upon a seldom used country lane.

As I stood stamping my feet to keep warm, my husband's little car came sailing over a rise and he pulled up to showy stop in front of me with a huge grin! Found You! He had been scouring the country side for an hour and a half from the snow bound high roads looking for the train. They knew at the station the train had broken down - they just didn't know where.

I piled in with as many other passengers as we could fit and we went back to the station to let them know where it was and then on to the party. I was proud of his resourceful determination.

Curiously, I think my husband needs me now more than he has ever needed me in his life. Completely wacko, willing to throw away a life he has spent decades building - he needs me to be resourceful/determined - to scour the high roads until I find him again.

Loving through adversity is in a way a definition of what love is or should be. I can't think of a greater test to love than adultery. Those of you out there - who have loved through the pain, deceit and violation - have truly loved ...

PB,
I have not abandoned you.
I will email you.
holiday

Journal,

Sorry I need to vent.... Just got off the phone with the pod person, who is persisting in trying to rent a condo practically next door to me - as a bachelor pad. Would I help decorate it?

I have explained to him dozens of times that it is really hurtful for me to see him with someone else and that it is completely unnecessary that he be so close. Where I would very certainly be running into him and anyone he was with. Unfortunately, I think it is not me that he is concerned with being close to. My needs or feeling don't even register with him.

There are many other very cool places to live as a single in our town. I keep stressing he could be very happy elsewhere.

I see less and less hope for us. I was praying that this would be a temporary mental clitch that he would overcome or get over - it doesn't look like that is going to happen.

I may just give in and let him live where he wants. It will mean I will have to speed up my plans to spiff up our home to sell it. So basically I can get clear.
Very tough day .....

PB,
My H thinks you H is wanting to keep tabs on everyone concerned by moving close to you and the OW. He's keeping his hands in the "mix".
Tell him to go ahead and find a place close by so he can watch how well you will be doing (and you really will).
As far as temporary mental clitch/glitch. Temporary is only how long you can take this sitch. So do the best you can for you,
holiday

Hi Holiday,

Good weekend so far, out with friends most of the time,- dim sum - old movies, today, it is errands, cleaning and putting together a plan to revamp our kitchen. I've started a scapbook of kitchen ideas that I like. A designer friend has volunteered to help.

After our talk on Friday, WS has been calling my friends and letting them know he won't be moving in nearby. That is a relief. I am not sure I really could have coped with that kind of invasive humiliation. He promised to leave me alone for two weeks - no calls - no dog pick ups - only strictly business emails.

He also has been giving my friends a long and hard go of psycho babble. How he needed to find himself and she was so appreciative and receptive blah bhah... How he never wanted to hurt me blah blah. The consensus is that his head is truly messed up and his brains are not going to unscramble soon.


Apparently, life in affair land has sprung a hitch. She has some other man now. She is less keen on my WS but I don't believe she has actually severed their relationship. She has them both on a string. Amazing! Two years ago, she was so obsessed with him and so sure he was leaving me then, she redecorated her condo to meet his taste! She spent the duration trolling outside our front door any time he might be passing through, often in increasingly scantily clad clothing - short shorts in April up here is downright chilly! Perhaps - she just wants what she can't have and when she gets it - promptly doesn't want it anymore. I can understand why this woman needs twice weekly therapy sessions!

I find I have gone from being hurt for two months to plain out and out steamed. After two years of this tacky debacle, I am thinking maybe I will just let go and move on.... Maybe I don't love him enough to stay the course and nor am strong enough to take more emotional pummeling.


I can't say I am certain of anything right now other than I really need to stay away from both of them. They make me crazy, sad, spitting mad and just so tired of the whole shabby scene. If I even see her from a distance, I have a bad day. When I hear his voice on the phone, I mentally brace myself for being hurt.

Hurt just paralyses you whereas anger has a bit of get up and go to it. I have had an easier time now in focusing on work and getting things done. There is alot to catch up on. I was a bit of a mess over the summer - not terribly productive.

I'm getting organized for the trip to eastern Europe with my brother, one of my girlfriends has opted to join us. It should be fun. I am really looking forward to being away - somewhere completely fresh. Everyone says Prague is the Paris of eastern Europe and completely enchanting. Enchanting sounds so good right now! I'm not sure of the exact itinerary but we are working on it - we will likely spend time in Croatia, Budapest and Prague.

So, how was the sushi? I love sushi. I eat it usually once a week - that or pad thai. It must be fun to be treated out to a family dinner by one of your kids - a sweet moment!

Cheers

PB

Good Afternoon PB!
Glad to hear you on a "higher" note!
The sushi was great. My son has been out on his own for well over a year (22 YOA). When he was in college at least I knew he would eventually come home. Tough knowing we only see him once in awhile when his schedule permits. He's a great son.

I am also glad to hear you WH decide to move a bit farther away from you. Good not to have to worry about possibly running in to them every day.

The OW sounds like a peach. I thought the "as soon as he's mine I move on" syndrome was something one did in high school. Sad that some people don't wish to "grow up". Your WH sounds like he might be floating in the same boat with you very soon.

Have you been reading? I just received "Animals in Translation" you recommended.

I hope you continue to have a nice weekend. I can only dream of a trip to Europe right now. Two years until Italy when our daughter graduates!

holiday

Hi Holiday,

I have always wanted to go to Italy too! I love everything Italian, the food, culture, sense of family, wine, history, shoes and handbags, glass, fashion, music, did I say shoes and handbags? I think the real joy of travel is the anticipation. I love planning trips. Whenever I was sick and confined to bed, hubby would go buy maps and travel guides to keep me happily occupied.

Every time I go to Staples to pick up office supplies, I look at the 5 disc Learn Italian programs - I may just spring for it next week. I day dream of renting a house somewhere in Tuscany for a month with friends and maybe doing day outings or may be doing nothing ...

I am rereading - Scandalous Life - A Biography of Lady Jane Digby - by Mary Lovell. It is a great read, the woman really lived - messily but clearly with passion. I am also trying to finish Over the Edge of the World by Laurence Bergreen. It is on Magellan's circumnavigation, I started it last winter and never finished it.

The WS has sent me a long email apology for thoughtless, insensitive and mean behavior? I must know he doesn't really mean to hurt me right?

We normally rent an old ramshackle but roomy cottage during the winter with two sets of friends. We entertain (nothing to sit 14 at dinner every Saturday night), downhill and cross country ski, plus lots of baking/cooking/reading/walking the dogs. I love the place. We have been renting with the same people for many years. They are family, I have watched their kids grow up. WS called them to say he will be sharing the cottage with a group of guys (divorced loser guys) and did they mind not sharing it this year? They called me to ask what was up. First I heard about it. WOW. My life is changing.... There are parts I am really going to miss.

I will need to re-invent.... That's kind of what life is really isn't it - a constant gradual and sometimes not so gradual invention. We live the lives we imagine we can.

I've been reading up on the male mid-life crisis. Damm I wish he had gone for the car. Sometimes, a life that has made someone happy for decades -just doesn't cut it anymore. They have a sense of urgency to squeeze as much living as possible into the short time they feel they have left. Always it is a different kind of living - they walk away from everything they have - searching for more. More of what I don't know maybe just more.

I'm really looking forward to the trip. My brother is an extremely frugal traveller - who has never really seen the necessity for hotels although if pressed he will admit indoor plumbing has its benefits. He has circled the globe many times on a shoe string. My shoulder was quite torn up in the accident -twice weekly physio sessions for the next four months - 45 minutes of daily exercises - or I will need surgery. It is a perfect excuse to get him to spend some time in the cities - not camped out in the wilderness absolutely every night .... I will get to shower some days - Yeah!

Cheers,

PB.

How wonderful your trip planning sounds!

I am sorry to read how painful the accident has left you and all the rehab you are going to be going through. Those are some sour lemons life served up.

I just feel that your H is going to wake up and you'll be in "Tuscany" purchasing a semi "ramshackle" (my Grandmother loved that word...must be an east coast thing) cottage to enjoy with a new set of friends (may I join you????) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I think we must continually re invent ourselves, not for the sake of others, but for ourselves. I would be pretty bored with myself if I was still doing what I was doing 20 years ago (working at a hotel desk in Laughlin, NV...yeeha!).

You are growing whether you know it or not. Right now is your time. So use it!

Aren't you glad you didn't have a mid life crisis? Think of the insurance payments on that Red Ferrari? ha!

My H's mid life (which is yearly) crisis gained us the Harley motorcycle. He then could drive himself into trouble with the A's. It's such an ego thing.

Since his second A (which related to the Harley), the OW must have placed some fear into him. He now only wants to go on trips with me going along (his safety net). His bday card inscription to me was sweet..."Thank you for being there for me all the time." And hopefully I can be.

holiday

Hi Holiday,

It is wonderful to hear how you two have overcome the whole affair thing - gaining a stronger marriage from it. It impresses me to no end. Love is really what makes life worthwhile because it is the emotion which connects us.

Last night, I did another tibetan buddist meditation session - (turned my ipod off this time.) We read a great quote by Stephen Levine in the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying by Sogyal Rinpoche: "When your fear touches someone's pain it becomes pity; when your love touches someone's pain it becomes compassion". Pity has its roots in fear, and a sense of arrogance and condescension, sometimes even a smug feeling of "I'm glad it's not me". Whereas to train in compassion, then, is to know all beings are the same and suffer in similar ways, to honor all those who suffer and to know you are neither separate from nor superior to anyone." I thought this was just a great passage and pondered it all the way home. I like going to this group - very small only four of us - but very cool thoughts...

My hubby got out voted on the cottage thing. Same people are going in as always - WS will have it most of the time I will use it at least for a couple of weekends. I do two really big weekend parties a year up there for old university and work friends. It was always a collective and not really his place to change the mix. The tribe has spoken....

Booking my airfare today - so exciting.... I love going to the airport. Even if I'm not flying anywhere - I like to go and just know I could if I really really wanted to... Sort of like always asking to hear the desert menu and relishing the thought that Creme Brulee exists only a few feet away but never actually orderiing it... It makes me happy to know its out there....

You and yours will be welcome in Italy... It will likely be two years before I get organized. You'll like the mix of people I have great friends.

You are so right, applying your imagination to how you live your life and the person you become is something you do for you....

Getting late, got to walk the dog and go do that work thing!

Cheers,

PB

Journal,

Just back from the beach, the weather is changing here, a touch of coolness in the breeze, most are wearing pants now not shorts ....

It makes me wistful, the beach has been a happy refuge .... with winter coming it means shorter walks earlier... no lollygagging for all hours walking on the shore - lisening to music or reading at a picnic table sipping Starbucks coffee ..

The dog senses it too. I had to carry him to the car today... 43 pounds of floppy passive canine resistance... but I don't want to go home Mom!

I had physio session today, ultrasound waves, electric current and something glibly called manipulation therapy (physical torture would be more accurate).

I wonder if healing your heart is like healing a torn joint. You have to work through the pain... or it doesn't heal right. I think I have to continue to love my husband - little pod person that he is - whatever happens - perhaps only to appreciate the time we had together. If I give into anger or hurt - I won't heal right.

~ ~~~~ ~~~~~

I had dinner tonight with two of our oldest friends. They believe WS is delusional, obssessed with the OW beyond reason (she is his true love), and wound up like a top - in short crazy. They don't see it changing soon. I am advised to get on with my life. Simple words but challenging to do when you have loved someone for 25 years.

It is hard to be the one being rejected particularly after so long. You feel small, embarassed, pathetic. I dread being asked questions about it and the answers even more. This has been on the horizon for two years now - but it still seems so unreal.... like it can't be happening...

How about looking at it this way: Your WS is small, embarassing! and pathetic.
You on the other hand you have stayed the course.
That's what my H meant about "not a date date", just coffee with someone of the op sex. And to place your ducks in a row concerning your business and home, just in case this doesn't blow over or you decide you don't wish to continue on the way you have been.
I think once you know where everything stands in your life with or without your WS you will have a clear place to start from.
Sorry to be so short tonight, just a challenging week so far.
You are in my prayers.
holiday
If we change the way we look at things, the things we look at will change.

Paradise,

I feel your pain. It is difficult. Continue writing here and venting. It is better to write your feelings down and not keep them bottled up inside.

Are you still working with your husband. Do you see him everyday. Are you still partners in the same company.

Innocence_lost

Hi IC,

How are you and your family doing?

I hope everybody is well ....

You're right it really helps to vent and write down my thoughts.

Life holds surprises! It is my WS's birthday on Saturday, it will be the first time in 31 years I will not be wishing him a Happy Birthday, baking a cake and making a fuss. Two years ago, I spent weeks planning, cooking, decorating for a roof top party for 50 people on his 50th. It was a great party.

We are still running the company together - largely by email. I've also hired another staff person, who works with me mostly out of our home and interacts with WS. It is hysterical. He calls her. She calls me then she calls him - very funny. We are having a good year and we needed the help.

I have only seen in him passing or from a distance for the last several weeks. He dropped by on Sept 16 the day after my accident to check on me for about five minutes. I find the less contact the better.

I have been trying to focus on just feeling better. When something like this happens it as though they have ripped out your heart... it is just that painful..

It gets better though. My days are busy, work, beach, dog walking, gym, friends, cleaning, organizing and making plans to spiff up the place before we sell it.

I can only get on with life at this point. I had lunch this week with a old friend who hadn't heard. It was dellghtful. The first normal conversation I have had in a long time. I didn't say a word - I just sat there and enjoyed normal. Next time I will mention it but it was nice to just forget about it for awhile ...

Frankly, someone always gets hurt in a break up. It is possible he may stay fogged for a good long while, it is his choice to make.... and mine to deal with.

I don't know exactly how this will play out.. I am preparing for the worst and hoping for the best.

Even the worst isn't that bad. Sitting with friends at dinner last night - I shook my head and said "S*&* happens. I have had 25 good years with him, there were very shaky points in the last two years perhaps but it has without a doubt been a blast. Besides, I have had his best years - whoever gets him now is just getting a cranky, bald, in bed by 10 p.m old @#$%%.

Saturday nignt, I will try very hard NOT to mentally picture how he is choosing to spend his birthday: open a good bottle of wine; and look at happy photos of his 30th, 40th, 50th ... basically remember all the great times.. for about an hour and then go find something else to do...


Cheers,

PB

Hi Holiday,

It sounds like you are having a harry week, I hope it settles down a bit. TGIF soon.

I'm working on my ducks... some are lined up ... some are just bobbing around all wobbly like.. it takes time ...

Honestly, Holiday, I am just not there for any kind of OP contact right now. It's been 26 years since I've dated - I know very few available single men of an appropriate age that I could imagine even a friendly coffee with - we live in a couples world. The only male in my life right now has: a keen intellect: a fun sense of humor: endless patience - (he likes to shop), a 100% loyal heart and four legs! I'm happy with that.

I look like a happily married woman. I look like part of a couple. I am slowing trying to shift that to looking like just a happy woman... It is a subtle difference...

Last night I went out to dinner clad in snug denim, wearing new red boots with the express purpose of it being reported back to the WS. The misery diet works wonders! With my husband, I would have worn, something much more formal - a sweater set or blazer.

One of our friends at dinner last night went through this in her early twenties and told me she stayed crushed for an entire year, lived at home with mom and dad, didn't work and moped. I laughed and said I'm 51 in January - I don't think I'm going to spend that kind of time moping....It has to get better soon.

It sounds like you are having too busy a week to do any reading but let me know how you enjoy Temple Grandin's book.

Cheers,

PB

Hi PB,
Took a little break from sewing...still so hot here in the Las Vegas area.

Would it be hard on you to bake your H a cake this year? How about a cake with a map on it...maybe a hint to find you soon.
Just a little thought.

May I also give you MHO on something? Try not to refer to your H as "a cranky, bald, in bed by 10 p.m old @#$%%". Perhaps that is what he thinks you really think of him and now the OW pumps his ego in the other direction. (Did I make sense?)

Hope you have a wonderful Friday,

holiday

Paradise,
Take it from someone male and trying to get back to a normal existence also, there are plenty of available men out there your age that would love to just spend some time with someone like you. I'm not talking about just to satisfy their need for SF either. I haven't been on a date in 28 years with someone other than my EXWW. I know what you mean by it being a couples world I see it every day too.
Whether we are BS's or just divorced or still single we feel the same, on the outside and looking in. Once my EXWW made it eminently clear that she was not interested in any form of reconciliation I felt like I would never again hang myself out there to be that damaged again. Then a strange thing occurred last week. An acquaintence from one of my recreational activities showed some interest in me and I asked her out. She shocked me and said "what took so long".
I think your dressing up and changing you outlook will have this same effect on your life. Others will notice and something strange and unusual will happen to you and your life will brighten up as mine did. All it took for me was to have that one date watching our favorite football teams play and dinner together. Noting more happened and I don't need anything more right now. Just to be in the company of someone who likes you and to be able to have fun with someone other than the ex meant a lot to me.
Maybe this is a false recovery of sorts for me but it sure felt good. You sound like you have started down this road already so let go of the steering wheel and see where the road will take you.

Holiday- Its cooled off up here in Reno so it should start to get better down there in Lost Wages soon. Too bad the cannon came home to Reno last week, it looks better painted blue and silver anyway!

Paradise,
I just read the rest of the thread and realized you were not divorced yet. In no way do I think you need to have an affair of your own. But maybe an evening out with someone platonic would help and your WS might get wind of it too. A Divorce Busting 180 plan maybe?

Dukhuntr

Hi Holiday,

LOL, your right as always... flattery will get you everywhere ...

It is hard. Plain hard... to sit with old friends and try to chew your food while they tell you how head over heels in love your husband is with a former friend. You just want to choke, cry, throw the dinnerware around, or politely excuse yourself to go throw up. I try instead to be funny.

I sat at the beach tonight... thinking I've lost.

Sometimes in life you come up against someone who is smarter than you are. This gal is absolutely dysfunctional but very smart. Worse yet she understands my husband better than I do - because she see him exactly as he is.

She manipulates his weaknessses. The other man on the string I will bet donuts is a closing technique... to twig his competitiveness ...

I don't see him as he is. I see him as the best he can be. I always have. That why our marriage was so easy for me. In choosing to believe in his strengths and ignoring his weaknesses I have made strategic misjudgements... She hasn't.

My friends told me that there is no way I can use the cottage this year. How, I could I stay in a room where they have been together... They are right of course. I can't. She is walking away with my life.

The last time I had such a crystallized realization I was not as bright as I thought I was; I was locked out of a hotel room standing in the corridor holding a VERY small handtowel, wearing glasses nothing else and lisening to the bath run inside.... Never lean out to place something on a room service tray - unless you're wearing a bathrobe at least!

I have to hunker down, do a great 180 and Plan B and hope she mucks up...or that at some point his heart will discern the difference between love and manipulation.

For the duration, your right again this is my time to explore, reinvent, grow and do whatever helps me keep it light. Today that meant going to the beach twice. The dog and I are going to have chicken soup for dinner and watch Jimmy Stewart in Harvey...

I hope it cools down for you. Have a great night!



Cheers,

PB

Hi Dukhuntr,

Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

Life is a journey isn't it. One minute you look around and you think this is great and poof it shimmers and disappears.

You sound like you are through the worst of starting over and on the climb back to normal. I bet it is a great feeling. Companionship and sharing are two of the big pleasures in life, and I'm happy you have connected with someone that brings that alive for you again.

One of the reasons I think infidelity is so hard to deal with it - is there is no more profoundly personal blow to your self esteem. It has to top the charts for that.

Rejection is always hard to deal with but when it breaches the connectedness that is a marriage it is just a !@#$% to get through.

I do feel like I am wandering around missing an appendage, I do look in the mirror and wonder if she is that much prettier, sexier or whatever.

In a way having this happen, later in life makes it easier. I also know who I am, what I am capable of, how as yet there has been very little I have been handed that I could not make better by just being patient, thoughtful creative or trying hard.

At some point in the future, I will be wearing my new red boots and making some guy laugh over coffee - but in my heart of hearts I'd really like it to be the same guy I have been making laugh for the last 25 years... he always gets my jokes!

Cheers,

PB

Paradise,
I can't imagine a guy who would walk away for from someone who can express their thoughts and emotions so well. Your writing skills and the way you express yourself are captivating and eloquent. You also have the patience to be a MC or IC for a living. Not once in all of your posts have you ever taken anyone to task or snubbed them in any way. I read some of the replies and I would have been hard pressed not to respond in kind. You on the other hand turned the table on those posts and did it in a way that made them "enjoy the journey".
I hope you continue your journal and consider expanding on it. I for one would be first in line to buy the complete story no matter what the outcome. If I were to guess I'd say your WH is in over his head and if he has an ounce of sense he will be back with his tail between his legs wondering what was in that infidelity cocktail the OW was serving.
I am wishing the best for you and just say the course you have chosen it's the most straight forward and rational approach I have seen in all of the lurking I have done these past few months. It's certainly not the easiest but it may be the best I've heard. It's not for the faint hearted thats for sure. But from the sound of it you are more than up to this task. I know I fear for your WH should you really get angry with him. I cant see him staying up with you verbally , mentally or in any capacity.
Hang in there we are all rooting for you.

Dukhuntr

Hi Paradise,

Thank you for inquiring about my family. We are actually having quite a lot of rebellion from one of our daughters. It is putting quite a strain on the entire family and the marriage. I am more vigilant this time.

Paradise, you appear to have a very good clarity of mind and clear grasp of your situation. You are doing all the right things. We cannot control our feelings. The pain, despair and loss of self esteem. Believe me that with the passage of time, this all improves. Again, writing it all down is very therapeutic. It also declutters your mind.

The OW is smart but appears to be very needy. She is in therapy twice a week. Is this what your husband was attracted to, the protector in him. On the other hand, you are intelligent and quite capable of looking after yourself.

Is your work arrangement going to continue as is? Are you able to go your separate ways with respect to your company.

All the best and continue looking after yourself

Innocence_Lost

Hi IC,

My mother used to rail at me saying " Wait till you have teenagers. I fooled her I didn't have any." You have my heart felt compassion. I have several friends who are reliving their teen age angst from the other end of the spectrum these days. It can be just day to day tough.

I was in the elevator this moring with a young lad who had the same ipod as I did. We were both standing there smiling ...into the music,,,, me into Chet Baker and him I don't know what that was... It seems music is a remedy for both teen age woe and middle age bewilderment. Have you tried giving her some portable music..

It is tough growing up ... they are so uncertain of everything ... themselves ... their bodies...who they should be..

Or conversely, maybe you need one... then you could tune into something else sometimes!

Cheers,

PB

Hi Dukhuntr,

I liked your comment about letting go of the steering wheel and seeing where the road takes you.. I'm going on a road trip today for a couple of days .. I'll think about the analogy - with both hands on the wheel though!

Thanks too for the compliments. A chap in my meditation class said last week that he was told by a bonafide guru that you will never be enlightened if you think you are special.

I do think I am special. I am lucky in that. Where I am much much luckier still is that I absolutely know that everyone is equally special in a unique way. You are special. The gal you had dinner with is special. My OW with her lovely dark eyes, seductive smile and complicated problems is special. My husband is special. We are all special, I think because we are all very much alive and part of some larger very connected whole...

"... to know you are neither separate from nor superior to anyone." - Sogyal Rinpoche

Life is special. Every single moment.. including - no especially the agonizing moments are precious. They are the part of the experience that gives the contrast. If every thing in life was just plain happy - the picture would have no depth...

Thanks again for your encouragement...

Now after all that philosophizing.. I have to go clean out my fridge and pack... I hope you have a great weekend!

Cheers

PB

So what did I tell you? Get that book started. dukhuntr is right.

dukhuntr-would it be possible to have some background on you, so we may all help out here? Reno huh? We were thinking of a motorcycle ride up there for the run last weekend. It is very warm today (was suppose to be 90 but hit 101).

IC-I have a 22 yr old son and a 16 yr old daughter. Son has moved out on his own over a year ago. Daughter is definitely in her teenage state. May I be of some help? Just ask.

PB-I hope you have a wonderful road trip. Yes, only metaphorically of course...let go of the steering wheel and see what happens. Sometimes the harder we try the less we succeed (for the moment). I don't feel the OW is "smarter", manipulation is not a sign of genius.

holiday

Holiday,
I am one of those unfortunate people who found this site too late to turn the tide in my marriage. I met my EXWW in HS and we had been together ever since. She was the only woman I was ever with and I think I was the same for her, until D-Day. Now after a lot of hindsight and emotional discussions with her I even doubt that. She is the epitomy of a conflict avoider. Her picture would appear next to the definition in an encyclopedia.
We had 28 great years together and few if any problems for the most part. I am an avid outdoorsman and I also could be termed as OCD about golf. I kept the compulsive sports under control until the past few years when the kids started doing their own things. Before that we were the softball, little league and girl scout family. Both my Ex and I coached, ran snack bars and did our part to make these activities enjoyable for our kids.
As the kids got older my Ex went back to work after being a SAHM for 15 years. Since her return to work we have been really concentrating on improving our financial situation and retirement accounts. As I saw it things were finally starting to really look good for us. We were saving for retirement and still had the money to do the things we had always wanted to but just couldn't afford on one income. Both of us agreed that this had worked out perfectly for us because we had two independent, intelligent and well adjusted kids that loved us and loved life.
Well, I thought this at least. The Ex on the other hand felt trapped and pidgeon holed into the housewife mold. What she has said is she "just couldn't stand to do the same things day after day any more". She has also said that "she needed more than she was getting at home" and wanted "someone to care what she wanted". All of this first came out after I found her with a co-worker in a motel room. She had already been seeing him for 8 months every time I left town to hunt, fish or golf. She had even called friends of mine to go when I wasn't planning a trip and told them "he needs to get out more" just to be able to go to him. And the best part is he's 15 years younger than her and although she knows "its not a permanent thing" she "just couldn't give up what she had going" with him
Well after D-day I did pretty much everything MB says not to do. Lots of LB's, and first and foremost I made her leave the house. I told her to stay at her parents house across town(They were out of town), she went to the OM's apartment instead. From there everything that I could do wrong I did. Checking on her, calling her, e-mails appealing to her morals, etc. Needless to say it pushed her closer to him and they began appearing around town as if they were married already. After two months of the phone calls from friends telling were they were and what they were doing I couldn't take it anymore and we got the divorce. She said she didn't want it but in the end she asked me to get it done.
So here I am a single man again and not liking it much at all until just recently. About the only good to come out of this is I lost 45 pounds in 8 weeks and have only gained a few back. Don't get me wrong I am still in need of losing "more than a few pounds". So there you have it. The rest of my life before all of this has faded into the background and this stuff dominates my thoughts now. If I had not been born and raised here and been blessed with many great friends I would not be here now. I was a mess and they(along with a great MC)restored me to a functioning individual again. The AD's are also a blessing.
The kids are not happy but they just want us to get to a place where we all just go on. I think they need some peace in their lives too. Sorry for the long post but I still just seem to go on and on about all of this when given the opportunity.

Dukhuntr

Paradise,
Get the journal packed first! Your road trip will just be the next chapter in your book to be. I look forward to reading the story. This road trip is one in which you should definitely grip the steering wheel, but only while on the actual roadways. The remaining time at your destination should be traveled 'hands free" and as carefree as possible. Have a wonderful trip!

Dukhuntr

P.S. - Holiday, You should have come up for Street Vibrations! If you are into bikes you need to see this event. It's still new enough that the crazier elements haven't found it and its an amazing assembly of bikes and bikers in a small area. Lots of runs and lots of parties, plus plenty of exhibits and vendors.

dukhunter...first wow...I read your post and you can always make it long as you need it to be, that is why we are here, to be heard!

Yes, Street Vibrations, I need to tell you...that is where my H met the OW (his 2nd A). They met in one of the local bars and well, you can guess the rest of the story. Now I'm not sure if I want to visit Reno (I think I will, but right now, well, doesn't sound fun to me).

Do you and your wife get along after all of this? Is there any chance of reconciliation even after the divorce?

holiday

Holiday,
Sorry about the Street Vibration call. That can't be a pleasant memory. I have been in a late plan B with the EXWW for over a month now and really no change at all. I think it was an exit A. She as I said is the ultimate conflict avoider. She went so far as to put a vacation mail hold on my mail after she left so she could sort out what she didn't want me to see before she brought it over to the house. If I hadn't come home for lunch one day and run into the mailman I would have never known.
She had been running up credit cards and getting new ones when she maxed out the old ones. No, I made her keep those in the divorce. They were all in her name only anyway. She and the OM are still in their thing and going strong. It continues even though our kids won't go near him nor her parents or brothers. My friends and family have all threatened bodily harm if I start talking reconciliation again. I would still try, I still have some love for her but she would have to really, really want to come back to clear the hurdles I have erected now. I don't think she has the desire anyway. Too much conflict to resolve for her. She went to MC twice, didn't like what she heard the first time and the second time she said she wanted to get back together. After hearing that I was so excited I went to her apartment to see her and the OM was there. Same thing the next morning. Called her to ask what was up and she lied and said she hadn't seen him in weeks. Needless to say she never went back to MC.
She has pretty much sealed herself off to everyone except the OM and the friends who didn't express any negatives to her. Only sees our kids once a week for dinner for an hour or so and even abandoned her dog to me. She still rages about exposure six months later. Reno is still really just a small town still and I know she is still being confronted by people weekly. Again not liking the conflict she created.
Well if Reno doesn't appeal to you Tahoe is incredible right now. The trees are changing color right now and the weather is perfect up there. Nothing more beautiful than the Tahoe basin in fall colors. The crowds are gone for the most part and the prices are way down on rooms. I hope you weekend was pleasant. Have a great week!

Dukhuntr

I was going to add I'd love to visit Tahoe!
Sorry to read of your EXW's issues. Too sad she didn't stick it out in MC. She will continue to have the same issues in the next relationship.
Have a wonderful evening. Still hot here. Til tomorrow,
holiday
PS Hope pb is having a wonderful trip!

Hi Holiday/Dukhuntr,

I do love road trips... They are easy - you can decide and go in usually less than 20 minutes. The dog and I looked at each other Saturday morning - nodded and off we went.

I made a quick call and we ended up joining some friends for a seafood dinner and spent the night on their boat in the Thousand Islands. I arrived at the restaurant first, ordered a table for five. There were four of us - three grown ups and a lovely teenage daughter. The waiter asked if the fifth was joining us soon. I just smiled said no actually it's just me living in the past. Everyone looked down or away for a moment while he took the place setting away.

We talked and laughed like we have been doing for decades. I brought a photo in a magnetic frame of when my girlfriend and I were in our early twenties - and definitely babes - her eyes shining with strength and confidence - mine with mischief. It is great cleaning out your house - you find wonderful things ...

The next day we worked getting their boat ready for the winter. I have gimpy shoulder she has a sore hip - we did everything carefully... taking sails down, caulking hatches, storing lines - it was a sunny day... on brillant blue water. What more could you ask for?

Amazing how the weekends go so fast.

Glad to see you two chatting, it helps to talk about it - Dukhuntr .. particularly with people who have been through it...

Tahoe would be a great trip!

Cheers,

PB

Journal,


Late Saturday night - wrapped in a sleeping bag, I stared out a boat hatch at an incredibly starry sky and missed my husband unbearably. The dog was snoring. I thought of how many nights I had laid awake lisening to them both snore, usually grumpy because it was keeping me awake ...

Groping around in the dark, I turned on Taj Mahal, cranked up the earphones and lisened to that deep baritone voice sing "Put some shake in your shaker and quake in your quaker..." I find now even when I'm crying, if I'm lisening to great music, my toes and feet move to the beat. I think this is a very good sign .. it means I have some body parts having a good time! Before I knew it my good shoulder was moving and my head was bopping.

I started to remember just how much I love to dance. I use to sail on the Tall Ships and we would have just great impromtu dances - unfortunately almost always all girls under the moon while gliding through the water.

I like all kinds of dancing from the playing the imaginary guitar in your stocking feet shimmy to a hot latin rumba....

Dancing is a metaphor for SF - it is all about rhythmic, paired movement, connecting in space fully aware of your body and your partner's body ... moving with a flow...While I wouldn't describe myself as sexually experienced I did cover more bases than my husband did before our relationship - the guy who could play me like an instrument - was a great dancer!

I am convinced if we had learned how to dance well together we would have scored high marks for SF.

He hates dancing. Since we have been married not counting our wedding dance - to "As Time Goes By" I can count on one hand the number of dances...I have had with him.

If he ever decides he wants to come back to our marriage - my number one condition is going to be that the man learn how to dance with style, grace and abandon! I mean - jive, latin, ballroom, not just the regular old hip swaying wiggle , did I say latin - the works.

I think the chickens have a very good point on dancing... What good is a male if he can't dance? If he can't strut his stuff - what does that tell you - girls?

Journal,

After signing off last night, I took the dog out to quickly stretch his legs before bed, thinking at 1.30 a.m. I was safe I walked past the OW's door and promptly ran smack into her.

The woman without question has had me completely wupped.

In the last year and one half I do not think I have looked her straight in the eye. I wear sunglasses, peaked caps, I look away. In the final weeks we walked together when she really started to be aggressive, I pretended I didn't hear her and talked out about the weather. "So do you think it will snow soon!" Perhaps not an apt reply to someone telling you they are in love with your husband; will be handling his divorce and that you probably won't be left with much after they are through. Later I just out and out avoided her.

When she blurted out their involvement, I could NOT let her see the devastation in my eyes... I was conscious that it might give her enjoyment and that would just be worse.

In business, if I let someone wup me like that I would make a poor living. It doesn't happen to me at work. I am not attached to the cash or outcome the same way I am to my husband. I can walk into a dicey dust up and smooth things out with calm pragmatism - never for a moment taking any of the issues personally. This is just so personal.

Last night I wasn't wearing sunglasses, no hat.. I didn't look away... I looked her straight in the eye and I gave her my own slow megawatt smile. Unfortunately, it wasn't with the true compassion I aspire to. It was with the thought " Darling I have seen you dance..."

It really does help to journal, slowly you sort out the jumble of emotions you feel into an ordered outlook on the situation. Thanks guys for encouraging me do this - it is working..

Paradise,
Sounds like you crossed one small barrier in your life already, just as I did. The passion you have for life and the world around you will get you thru all of this. I wish I could be as strong emotionally as you. I still get really uptight and weak when I have to see the EX. I actually make my self sick thinking about seeing her again. I think that is why I try to avoid it at all costs. I look at her and an image of the OM instantly comes into my head and the "why birds" start flying around again.
I don't know about you but each form of contact with her triggers all the same emotions all over again in me. They don't last as long anymore but the same cycle occurs each time. First you get the pangs of loss, then the whys, then the anger, and then lastly the sense of futility. The anger part is what really scares me. When I discovered them it was the first time I had any inkling anything physical was going on. I lost it in that motel room at Tahoe and I went postal on the OM and hurt him pretty good. After beating on him I went out to my truck and got a gun and headed back to the room to do something stupid and my daughter called me to ask if I had found her mother. She is the one who told me where her mother was.The Ex had called her to tell her she would not be home that night and to tell me not to look for her she needed to "think about our relationship". Caller ID gave her the number I used to track them down. When I told her I was going to do something drastic my daughter saved me, she talked me down by telling me how much she and her brother needed me. She said she didn't know where her mother was headed and needed to know I would still be there for her.
To this day that is the worst feeling I have ever felt. I lost my entire sense of self worth and was going to throw everything else that meant anything to me away because of my EX. After months of IC I can still recall that feeling and it scares me to think how fast I got there.
That is why I enjoy your posts and journals so much. You focus on everything else in life that is beautiful and rewarding even without the companion that used to make it more wonderful. The analogy between dancing and SF is perfect. When two people dance well together you see that they have connected in a way that is sensual and unspoken the same as in a physical relationship.

Holiday,
I have been writing all of this stuff out again for you guys and I do think the writing does help organize your thoughts and has given me a release from the self doubts. I talked my friends to death the last few months and it didn't seem to help at the time. It only served to keep everything fresh in my mind and painful. I do still have the reconciliation fantasies running thru my head all the time. I know in my head she will never change her CA issues but my heart seems to want to hang on to the vision of the future I had before all of this happened.
I have continued with IC and I have asked my counselor to get me to a place where I would not melt like a chocolate bar on a Las Vegas street in July if she were to show up and express a desire to come back to me. He's the same MC the EX went to and he is convinced this is where I need to be also. She lied to him too and had him completely convinced also. He still marvels on how well she can tell a lie and believe it herself.
Right now I have been helping my kids cope with some more bad news. Their uncle on the Ex's side who has been very close to them their whole lives has just been arrested on his 5th DUI. A long term alcoholic who has been thru rehab 4 times and narrowly missed mandatory jail the last time now is headed for a long strech on prison. We all knew it was coming, but we have done all we could even interventions and such. I feel the worst for my ex-mother in law. Her comment was "great, now I have two felons and an adultress for children". The other uncle had a drug problem and the usual issues regarding how he got the money to support his habits.
I guess my problems are getting less and less critical in terms of what they could be. I'm home sick today with a flu bug so that's why I seem to be going on so long here. I can't sleep and I ache too much to just lie down and watch TV. Hope all is weel with you and let me know if you decide to run up to Tahoe. You don't need a tour guide there but I do know some great eating and drinking spots that enhance any visit. I do also know of one motel in particular you might want to avoid. Bad karma there!

Dukhuntr

Duck season opens Saturday!- Bad news for the duckies this year- no restrictions on how much time spent in the marsh and a humidor full of cigars to smoke while hunting.

dukhunter...amazing...your wife's family has a few of my H's relatives, not kidding.
I think my H comes from an additive background and has fought long and hard not to fall victim to it completely.

He is one of 7. Oldest brother has been married three times. The last marriage of 13 years ended with him having an affair with his old "high school sweetheart", whom she left a 30 year marriage for.

Next oldest is a sister who has been through three husbands, two children by different Fathers, a multitude of jobs, all which end in her giving them a lawsuit. As well in a 9 week retreat for sex addiction.

Next a sister who has three children, all by different Father's First one born when she was 15 and her Mother raised her son as her own. Her oldest daughter is addicted to meth and three years ago sued our insurance for $100,000.00 when she and my H tipped over on his motorcycle while giving her a ride and skining her shin.

Next his brother who in high school was the biggest druggie which then converted in his 30's to being the biggest NA rep in the state he lives in (was a blessing). Married twice, divorced once, but before converting to a drug free life his first wife was addicted to gambling and uppers.

Then my H's youngest brother. Has two children with two different women, one he married, one he was in high school with. Ex wife has 3 DUI's, that we know of (she still drives around with my 8 year old nephew unseatbelted in the car).

My family doesn't have too much going on. Rather we have issues that our parents basically raised us then we moved out and they began their lives without us (they don't really even contact their grandchildren).

Soooooooo, everyone has somethin'.

I will say a prayer for our children tonight. I will also pray that I will have words to express inspiration for us in the future.

Have a nice evening...you too PB!

holiday

Hi Dukhuntr/Holiday,

Wowser...those were some posts. I will need time to digest all the information and complicated situations....

Spent 9 hours in an emergency room tonight with my Dad - I had picked him up from his nursing home yesterday and popped him up to my Mom for his weekly overnight visit.

When you are confined to a nursing home - getting to spend a night at home with your wife is a treat. He takes her out to get her hair done and they have a diner lunch. It's a big deal.

Tonight, when I went to pick him up, he had severe chest pain.... He is still in the hospital but stable and doing well.... perked up right away when a very pretty nurse came on shift... Men are men no matter how old they get...

Got to go to bed ... pooped.

Oh pb...I will say a prayer for your Dad. My Dad was in 5 hour surgery yesterday...my Mom didn't tell any of us (3 siblings) about his surgery until last Thursday, so no one was able to be there for them. Again, they are a strange couple. I called her last night to check on her and she had been sitting in the waiting room for over 4 hours without anyone, nor any of the staff letting her know what was going on.

I forgot to add that my H does have one wonderful sister (I didn't think to add her into that above mix). She was married at 18 to a fella coming home from Viet Nam pretty messed up (drug wise). Divorced after only a year. Then married to a wonderful man for almost 19 years whom passed away in 1996. Now married to another wonderful man who is a quadrapaligic (splg?).

I hope you both have a good day. I am off to Laughlin for the day to visit my niece and nephew,

holiday

Hi Dukhuntr:


" I actually make my self sick thinking about seeing her again. I think that is why I try to avoid it at all costs. I look at her and an image of the OM instantly comes into my head .....The anger part is what really scares me."

It sounds like contact with your ex is just toxic for you right now and to be avoided. I agree the anger is what I find the most challenging about this type of situation. Living so close to the action as it were... I have had a few murderous thoughts myself and I definitely get the urge to just break things. I've never experienced such strong negative emotions before.

Every time I pick up something up to throw it though ... I stop and think wait a minute this is mine and I really like it - plus it seems just rude to be scaring the dog. So instead, I go to the beach and imagine the waves just washing it all away.

Visual imagery is very powerful. You can use it too.

Yes she is acting in a way that hurts big time. However, on the flip side..everyone has the right to live their own lives.. make choices.. sometimes make very bad choices and learn from the consequences.

I am so happy you have a daughter and son that love you. There is always a plus in every situation ... for you it may be that you got two great kids out of the deal.

I never understood crimes of passion - how anyone could just so completely lose it - now I do. You have alot to be thankful for. A daughter who has the presence of mine to save you....from tossing your life away... and causing pain to others. What a gift..

Our marriage appears to be ending after a few quiet talks. I think after 25 years - there should be some yelling and a ruckus - maybe even alittle bit of smashed china. I have an emergency item that I plan to break - should the OW come over and tell me how sorry she is that our marriage failed. One of my husband's trophys - a ceramic bowl.. it should hurl through space nicely.... but by then I probably won't need to destroy anything.

Dealing with this is NOT about how strong you are, it is about perspective - how clearly you see the situation for what it is. Keep writing!


Hi Holiday,

I think I can understand, why your husband really appreciates you. He must look around at his brothers and sisters and then his own situation and think "Wow did I get lucky."

I believe he got very lucky!

Cheers,

PB

Holiday and Paradise,
I like to think I am past all of that anger now and I can cope with the rest of this stuff rationaly. I'm sorry to hear about you Dad PB. Coming at this time makes it even more difficult. ALthough it might serve to take your mind elsewhere for a while. Any break for me in thinking about my marital woes is welcome. I don't know about your sich but too much time thinking about one subject can't be good.

Holiday, your Dad and mine come for the same cloth. Mine has a multitute of physical problems and never tells anyone anything until it's done and handled or he is ready for you to know. It must be some sort of generational thing where they don't want to lose some of their independence? All you can do is be there for them when they are ready. In my case my father has been taking me hunting and fishing since I was 5yrs old. Now he's not really capable of going on his own and I take him out. I really enjoy this because I feel like it's my turn to give back some of what he gave to me. He used to carry me out on his back to the marsh so I could hunt. My mother who hates birds(angry rooster as a child) used to go just to help with my brother and I. I have done the same things for my son and daughter and I think this is what family is all about. Sharing what you enjoy and making memories.

Keeping perspective is a must in these times. PB you are right on the mark as usual. I have two great kids and I want to be there to share the time I have left with them and their children. We all have things that are worth looking forward too if you really sit back and think about it. Lost visions of how it would have been seem to cloud your thoughts and how you move forward. Maybe there is a "fog" that the BS needs to clear also. It's the fog of their version of where they were headed in life and where they wanted to be and with whom they would share it. The future you want is still there you just have to alter how you get there.

I want to thank both of you for sharing your thoughts with me. You can talk to friends all you want and they just don't know the depths of feelings involved if they haven't been thru this. The two of you have really helped me to put some clarity to my sich and I thank you again.

Dukhuntr

Journal,

I sat with my Dad tonight in the hospital. He was heavily sedated. He patted my hand told me "I knew you'd be here.. I just want to sleep now." He is looking very old. I know I am going to lose him.

Sometimes you come across or meet people - where spending time with them has been a priviledge. My Dad is the number one person I have felt lucky to spend time with. He still makes me laugh, think and be thankful.

I say prays for Dad daily. He doesn't need them. He is fine with where he is right now. I know he is getting tired and he wants to move on. I really need him to stay awhile longer though...besides which my Mom would be mad at him...if he pooped out on us before he made it to 90. She has been planning a party.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Woke up early this morning, poured a coffee and took the dog to the beach; I go to the beach now usually twice a day... sometimes early enough to catch the sun rise... and always after work to watch it set. My life is slowly developing a new rhythm. Every hour has music in it now practically... today K.D.Lang's song The Valley.

My husband would always wake me up in the morning with a cup of coffee. He was usually up first. I've been really missing that. Sitting on my kitchen counter this morning is a sleek stainless steel coffee maker. It has a timer!

Mrs. J (knitting teacher - cranky panky!) was sitting in our lobby this morning, waiting for a bus pick up to take her to her volunteer work at a nearby hospital. She made me promise to come to class; "We will have a joke and I will make you cake..." I really like her. She is a survivor. She has lived long enough to know what life is really about and is very happy to share it with you... life is all about sharing things...moments... smiles ... tears... cake and most of all jokes!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

My Dad's cardiologist at the hospital called. He has refused to have an IV inserted. He won't allow them to put a tube down his throat either. All the invasive procedures that she would normally do to keep him alive -he is saying no to. He had a second heart attack yesterday.

After a long painful discussion we have elected to proceed with oral medication only. Should a code situation occur while he is being stablized - there will be surface electrical stimulation only and only if he will agree to it.

The doctor is saying that at this point with the damage already present - all the procedures required would be painful and only done if the patient is willing. He still could stabilize and live another few months or a year .. you can't tell....

Right now I really need a joke.

~~~~~~~~~~
At my Aunt's funeral, we lost track of the procession and ended up at the cemetry - front bumper to front bumper with the hearse - seeing the shocked dismay in the driver's eyes.

I was driving with my entire family in the car. We were on a narrow lane way and I couldn't back out of the way without literally driving over someone's grave. We ended up backing up over a mile like that - the hearse following us only a few feet away - the entire procession behind it. When we finally reached her open grave site, everyone in our car was laughing so hard - we were crying.. Dad was sitting beside me shaking with laughter saying between gasps how Grace would have loved it!

pb, keeping your Dad in my prayers as well as your Mom and you.

I wish I could have the same relationship you have with your Dad and you too dukhuntr. My Father never let me (nor any of us for that matter) in emotionally. In the past I had tried many of times to walk though his arrows to get close to him, but his aim was so precise.

For the past 15 years I really don't converse with him too long. I calculate just how long, 5 min, 30 min or woo hoo 1 hr has gone by without him saying something negative about me. I have since learned "it's not about me" which helps for the most part.

When my H betrayed me, it hurt all the worse as I felt "no man" can really care about me the way I need to be cared for. To date my H is trying very hard, but I do have little set backs.

Talking to my Father last night via phone to the hospital, it turned into the same thing. Only he was too drugged to sling an arrow, only could give me a tone on how I have never been in as much pain as he was in now. I sometimes find him down right infantile!

Oh well, I keep praying that someday God will show him the way.

Have a good day you two!

holiday

Hi Holiday,

I am sorry for your Dad's blindness, not everyone was cut out to be a parent. I'm sure in some ways your kids benefited indirectly. You learned what not to do by his example. I'm including your Dad in my prayers too.

It is beautiful weather here. I have packed up a kit to give Dad a haircut and shave with... going to spend the day with him... looking at photos if he is up to it. I may even sneak him a beer.

I have been cutting both my Dad's and Husband's hair for decades now. It started as a cost saving measure and ended up just a domestic ritual. I just wondered where WS has been getting his haircut lately... probably a chi chi salon.

I drove by a cute blond at the beach this morning that made me think of you... riding a brand new soft pink Vespa, matching helmet and leathers...not a Harley girl but certainly one with attitude.


Cheers,

PB

Holiday,
Yes it is a wonderful thing to have supportive and loving parents. In your case you are not the one missing the boat, your father is. Your father missed out on all that he could have shared and and been a part of and it makes me wonder if this is part of your siblings problems in life. You recognized what was missing and have chosen a different role for your own life and that speaks volumns about you as a person.

Paradise,
By all means take your Dad whatever he wants. Beer, wine, or even smuggle in a flask of expensive single malt scotch. Make it another memory you can look back on forever as something you and he shared together in fun. How many skills can one person possess. Writing, business, and now hair styling? Do you rodeo also? Bobsledding maybe? Don't tell me you flyfish and tie your own flies, if you do I may have to move! Ever tried golf? No don't tell me I would move then!

The Ex has started to e-mail me concerns about our children all of a sudden. Mind you these kids are 23 and 21 and pretty self sufficient and very bright. It's usually about how much time I am spending with them or one of them seems down in the dumps. When I ask the kids about it there is never a problem or issue involved. What is she doing here? Just trying to get me to break my plan B silence? She is definitely still with the guy and knowns I will not talk to her about anything but the kids, so whats up with the stupid stuff? I hope the fog is not lifting. I am not ready for that yet! Too many doubts still lingering and too much residual love and respect left over to outweigh the negatives. Would someone with the conflict aviodance issues she has try and get back on the fence between us again? Probably just my reconciliation fantasy talking again but what do you guys think?

Have a great day with your Dad Paradise and you too Holiday.

Dukhuntr

Hi Dukhuntr,

"Maybe there is a "fog" that the BS needs to clear also. It's the fog of their version of where they were headed in life and where they wanted to be and with whom they would share it. The future you want is still there you just have to alter how you get there."

I liked this comment. A marriage can be likened to two bonded atoms - when a separation occurs both atoms are sent spinning. I have gone from a very well ordered perspective on my life, my marriage, my husband, my career, myself to basically - pudding brain.

I don't even know what I want anymore. I am changing. I have absolutely no idea where I will be living or what I will be doing next year. Most days I really only know I have to spend as much time as possible at the beach.

As a BS you are dealing with accelerated changes amidst enormous uncertainty often relating to almost all aspects of your life - moving residence, living alone after decades of a couple existence, the option of divorce versus reconciliation, property issues. For example, in terms of the company we own... there are major issues there.. I will need to deal with. Whilst all this is happening there is an emotional rocket ride...

It also impacts how you view yourself and the world. Does it have to be negative - no. The old saying about the chinese symbol for crisis - same symbol for opportunity.

I do feel like I am in a fog. I also think if I manage to stay perfectly calm, free myself from any dark emotions and strain my senses, eventually my life in a new form will emerge from the mist. The only thing I know for sure is that there definitely will be more dancing.



Cheers,

PB

Journal,

Dad is Dad. What can I say. No IVs, no tubes, just my dear old shameless flirt of a father, chatting up the nurses, gleeful he has got his way.

On my way to the hospital I was sad. After seeing him so weak last night, hearing there had been a second heart attack and having to tell a doctor today to basically let him die should another attack occur - I was expecting the worst only to find the best.

I walk into his room on the cardiac ward and he beams at me - clear eyed and completely rational - looking positively fine.

Yes he would like a shave. "Leave me a bit of my nose ... Do I have to tip you? Would you like to be tipped up or down?"

Haircut sure... "Leave me at least one ear dear... Am I handsome now? Where is the dog? Tell him Grandpa misses him. Did I tell you your mother and I loved you the moment we saw you? " Likewise...

My husband walked into the room - as I was shaving my Dad, I looked up at him briefly before concentrating on the task at hand...

My Dad was really happy to see him... started to tease him right away.... Hubby looked at me and said "You know he really is an ever ready battery bunny."

I'm cautious with my husband these days. When visiting hours were over, we walked to our cars together - talking mostly business... he sounded almost normal there for awhile. I thanked him for coming. It was a nice thing to do.

Until, he started to complain about not seeing me... "Why can't we at least go to dinner this week end? Apparently, he really doesn't want to be married anymore, he wants to live in his own apartment - spend time with the OW but finds it unreasonable of me to not want to see him on casual dates... Wacko wacko wacko...

Even lisening to him talk about next year's numbers - he's just gone loopy.

The friend I stayed with over the weekend, had a long talk with him last week, her comment was that he has so much me, myself and I going on - I don't see that there is alot of room for a fourth person. He won't even consider seeking help but I firmly believe he needs it. I don't know what the proper medical jargon would be - banana head I think covers it for me.

Up late...
Trying to get my holiday stock up...a never ending process.

Well, dukhuntr...hmmm, her fog lifting? Could be or it sounds something like PB's husband...just keeping one foot in the door (hopefully they are wearing sandals!)

She sounds like she still wants a connection with you and your life. I feel when we are with someone as long as the three of us all have been, the WS definitely has a piece of us and when they "think" they need to "find themselves" and try to replace that piece, they wake up one day, look in the mirror and notice a hole they can't repair.

My H has been very edgy lately. Scares me. This is the month last year is when he had his second PA. He is studying very hard to pass his paramedic classes and when he's tired he gets opinionated (picky). I haven't worked since 1996 outside the home. We made a deal the day he bought his Harley...he gets Harley and I retire. He truly likes me home (at the time we still had two younger children home, now only our 16 year old). I don't make a killing on ebay as when we moved from our little 1914 cottage in Prescott, AZ (I miss that place terribly) and moved here to tract and stucco land, my business connections in vintage and collectible items seized.

Anyway, off to bed. PB have you asked your H what would he wish to talk about on a mini date at dinner? Like, what is his agenda? I still think your spouses want the best of both worlds...but they can't have it.

holiday

Paradise,
Sounds like you had the good day with your father you were looking for! You even "kept it in perspective" when the WH showed up. Good for you! I think you are right in not letting him fence sit with you. He needes to make up his mind to "fish or cut bait". Your being with him here and there will only allow his indecision to continue and as messed up as his thinking is,if he can get away with it it will feed his ego. Your friends even sensed his narcissim showing up. I thinks WS's all have some narcissm to an extent. You have to, to rationalize what you are doing to people you love or even just care for. WS's have to concentrate all of their focus on whats best for them and the he** with everyone else. How else can you continue down a path that is morally and socially wrong and still look yourself in the mirror every morning? My EX even said this to me after I exposed. Her comment was "I don't care about what other people think, they do not know about me".

And by the way no one who has ever read what you have to say or how you express your feelings would ever call you "pudding brained". You are as far from that as anyone I have ever corresponded with. Just because you you have emotions and feelings, and a conscience does not make you pudding brain. It makes you a real and complete person.


Holiday,
Thanks for your thoughts on the EX, thats a more likely explanation for her sudden concerns. She hasn't paid much attention to her children for a long time and now that the initial excitement of her new relationship is becoming more mundane a hole would appear where family used to fit. I worry about her still and I know it's no longer my place but how can you just suddenly stop after 28 years? Her "boy toy" is 15 years younger than her and wants a family. She has hers and doesn't want any more children. They started this even knowing that "it's not a permanent thing" from the beginning. I think that has been the hardest thing for me personally to deal with. Knowing that she left for something temporary and short term without ever trying to fix our relationship first. Heck, without saying we had problems first!

Your radar has popped up with your H so don't sit back and see what happens! He has been studying hard and I asume still working too so invest some time and effort with him. He may not be feeling the appreciation he needs right now and some LB deposits are in order! I know you need to get you stock up for the holidays but maybe he feels his stock needs to be replentished too. Time for the ride to Tahoe I think! My Grandmother lives in Prescott and its a lot like Northern Nevada. Reminds me a lot of Virginia City only bigger and fewer saloons.

Duck season only two days away!

dukhuntr

Hi Holiday,

my business connections in vintage and collectible items seized.

What about looking at a different business model. One say involving old movies in DVD format. I watched a fascinating documentary on Ebay. Their prime success story illustration was a couple who sell old movies on DVDs..- husband quit his job after four months.. they had to build a new building on their property to store stock.

It would be an easy model to build. You would have to research suppliers, costs, etc. You may be able to buy authorized versions made abroad economically. There are existing sites to look at for an example of how to go about it; getting an idea of the titles which move, what they are charging, where other sellers are getting their stock etc.

It is appealing because you can make much more money on a product class where you are adding a margin versus creating from scratch. Plus there would not be a big cash outlay up front. No sewing.. just shipping.

Hope you have a great day.

PB.

P.S. Just talked to a neighbor - she met my WS this morning coming out of you know whose door ... banana head!

Thanks PB.
I can always use business advise. My sitch is though that I love to sew (create). I just wish I could think of more things I can make that someone can't live without, ha!

So old Banana Head was in the neighborhood. How nice. You are so cool. I too don't think you are a "puddin head" for trying to make things still work. I think when we get to the gates and St Peter looks at us, then his clipboard, he'll say,
"Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, you were married to (spouse's name)? Well, you are going straight to heaven. You've already done your time in *ell."

I'm off to early bed,

holiday

Dukhuntr/Holiday,

I agree, it makes it harder to think that without real complaint - they are prepared to walk away for something that common sense would suggest is going to be temporary. It just that common sense has nothing to do with this. I think the love bank paradigm is a good one, but not the whole picture - wrong has a draw to it - breaking a rule is exciting.

This is compulsion. I haven't felt compulsion in a long long long time. I don't think regularly walking back to check that my car lights are off - when I'm positive they are -qualifies.

The last time I experienced compulsion I was a child. I've been trying to remember the sensation so I can relate to what my WS is going through.

I had two terrifying habits when I was a toddler and young child.

I took off the minute you weren't looking. Gone in a flash as fast as I could run out into the world. I spent many an hour in a wide variety of managers' offices usually being fed candy, even crossed a busy six lane highway once pushing a little pink pram as a four year old. No wonder my Mom went prematurely white.

I loved to be up high. I still do. I would climb out windows to the roof, trees, bridges anything high. I used to climb a very big old apple tree in our yard to the point where the new growth at the top was. Branches only as big as my finger. I'd leapt up gather an armful and hang there like a monkey swaying with them in the wind - just a fabulous feeling of being free - always a little tricky getting down, dropped 30 - 35 feet on more than one occasion.

My early vocations appeared to be hobo or aerial circus performer. Neither came to past. When scolding, spanking, isolation and taking away priviledges did nothing to curb my urges. My mother instead kept me in a harness and on a leash - literally I was tied to her wrist whenever we went anywhere.

I also spent several of my early years tied in that harness to a clothes line. I can still remember how sad I was on windy days, looking up at the tree branches swaying in the wind.

Sometimes when we would run into the OW my WS would look just unbelievably sad - it is all about compulsion how an experience makes you feel.

I never thought for a moment what it must have been like for my mother staring up at her six year old daughter clinging to a few twigs or scampering from roof to roof all the way down the street to avoid capture, or looking up from filling out a deposit slip at a bank to find me gone - the sheer gut wrenching terror of it. As a child I only knew that going places and being up high was exhilerating.

I will still drive 500 miles round trip for an ice cream and a good view... but I haven't climbed anything since I used to run up the rigging on the Tall Ships as a teenager -being up high while going somewhere - how cool was that.

My Dad cured me of running off. He wittled a willow branch into a hobo stick..(Dad grew up in the depression). Tied up my bunny, a dolly and some candy in a checked napkin and left it by the door. After calmly telling me that if I wanted to go live somewhere else that was fine, but I should take my things with me, so they would know I wanted to leave them. When he put it like that I didn't want go anymore. That stick stayed by our door for years my parents still laugh about it.

It is because it is wrong, dangerous, risky, a could lose everything proposition - that there is such a charge to it. The OW makes my WS feel alive.

However, when it is not wrong anymore, when they live with the OW or OM ... when reality sets in... the high evaporates.

My WS in his current state of mind has no concept of what this is putting me through... if he did he wouldn't be doing it.

Cheers,

PB

PS. Holiday loved your hole in them or pieces missing analogy.

Yes wrong really must create somthing like a high or a rush. Like moths to flame, I just hope they all get too close and burn their wings. I want to be there when it happens to hear the thud when they land.

Holiday can you imagine paradise being an unruly child? I'm having trouble with that one. Must have had a near death experience or some other life altering occurence. You are light years away from that persona now paradise.

All of this talk about business makes me think of work. As a CPA I have helped people with all of this stuff for years. Startups, Valuations, etc. Get together with a good CPA/Consulting firm locally. They can walk you thru all of this stuff and save both of you time and money in the long run. I work in private industry now so I'm a little rusty on this stuff but if you need basic advice, fire away.

Well I need to rest, big night at the duck club tomorrow night. Everyone goes cabin to cabin with their glass and just like trick or treat you get refills. Opening morning is "foggy" every year regardless of the weather. Pent up demand from the offseason I guess. That and good times with old friends and new!

Have a good night!

dukhuntr

Paradise and Holiday
Just have some free time this morning and have fallen back into the dwell mode. In the course of my IC we have been dealing with my feelings of loss and anger for the most part. We haven't spent a great deal of time talking about my issues that created the environment that allowed my Ex's A to happen. I am well aware that I have contributed to my own problems but nothing I would consider fatal. I would love for you guys to hear me out and tell me what you think.

My issues she took offense to were that I had all of my outlets such as hunting, fishing, etc and she was limited because of bad knees , and a recently replaced hip. She felt there was no excitement in her life and she could not go on doing the same things day after day any more. We traveled together, went to basketball and baseball games together and dined out frequently. We also followed a local band and would see them at every opportunity. So I am not sure what she meant by this.

I have also made two career moves in the past several years (all for the better) and I have spent a great deal of time at home after work by myself. I would come home eat and visit with the family then retreat to my basement to relax and unwind. I was very concerned about what I was doing with my career and the new jobs all entailed a higher level of performance and responsibility and I was under a considerable strain. I have to admit it probably appeared to her that I had distanced myself from her. When in fact I was simply unsure of myself and unsettled.

As far as SF, that has never been an issue in our marriage. We have always been passionate, caring and sometimes very daring in that respect. Even a very loving morning on D-Day!

As for the day to day household chores she was a dynamo. She liked to have a neat and clean home and never let anything slide. She only let me help out to a small extent inside the house and the outside was all mine except for her flower garden. She did all of the cooking except when we barbequed and I think enjoyed cooking.

Well my question here is do you think that after 24 years of making this work and being happy you can become bored with your life and just want out? Or is the OM the cause of the change? How much did my distancing myself effect her? Could her hip problem have contributed to her restlessness?

I know I am rambling here but some days you just need to search for answers even though you know there aren't any. I wonder now how long these questions will haunt me and send me back into my funk.


dukhuntr

Hey just want you both to know I will read your posts better later tonight or tomorrow.
Also, what does SF mean (I think I have a clue).
Hope you both are having a wonderful Friday.
ttyvs,
holiday

Hi Dukhuntr,

What were the things that your wife found interesting or enjoyed doing? Did you spend time on her passions as well? With bad knees - you can still line dance, swim, go to movies, cycle, play cards, entertain, do tai chi, take any manner of courses - photography - even couples cooking classes!

It sounds like maybe she would have liked trying different things.

Every marriage has shortcomings. I don't believe they justify having an affair. Virtually everyone I know has some needs that are not being met by their spouse. I do think this site has an excellent pardigm for improving communciation within marriages and provides a great perspective or how to manual on improving them. Marriages are all about communication.

Was the OM the sole cause or a contributing factor? No one knows that for certain I am sure not even your wife, but I would bet a combination of things come into play. It is easy to be harsh with a WS because the pain is so intense, but I suspect Dr. Harley is right everyone is capable of an affair given the right set of triggers.

From the details at the bottom of your posts, it looks as though in three or four months, you two decided to end a very long mostly happy relationship. A relationship, that given its tenure defines parts of both your lives and will leave a lasting perspective.

To me it seems too quick, like trying to make a decision on which way to go while standing in a dust storm. She was not thinking rationally and probably still isn't. People having affairs never do. Finding them together like that - must have tanked your ability to calmly assess the situation. I know I couldn't come to that conclusion in that time. Everyone is different dealing with this type of thing.

What is important is not your current marital status, it is answering the question - Do you still love your wife?

If you do - then you wait - do the program outlined on this site, keep your hope alive and do a personal inventory of what you would like to change in yourself, your life and your marriage.

If you don't - then you get on with exploring life but I still think you need to do the inventory on what you want to change in yourself and your life.

This kind of fundamental change is like a threshold, you need to pause and think carefully before you step through.

Cheers,

PB

Journal,


I keep losing track but I think next week I will have been separated for 10 or 11 weeks. I've thought non-stop pretty much every day and sorted out all of 2 conclusions:

1) Irrespective, of what I end up doing for a livelihood - I am not going to work the hours I am accustomed to working because I really like going to the beach.

2) I going to pursue old passsions. I want to: dance more frequently and more expertly; join a climbing gym, after my shoulder has healed and I've trained for it; take more trips maybe even take up horse back riding again.

I'm trying hard - but clearly not making huge progress.

I took my Mom out to dinner tonight then on to see Dad. He has been released from hospital and is doing fairly well back in the nursing home.

She always surprises me.

A tiny frail, white haired 80 year old woman with perfect hair and nails, sitting across from me, lisening calmly - as I simply said we had split up and he was seeing one of my former friends.

"Oh well, I'm glad, you're far too nice of a girl to be treated badly. Don't waste anytime getting your divorce dear - your only 50 - you have a very happy life ahead of you. The jacket you are wearing is lovely. Who made it? Where's my drink"

She spent the rest of dinner trying to convince me to get involved in politics. That's my Mom don't waste any time on nonsense - lets get to the broad strokes.

My mother needs help walking, she holds on to my arm and likes me to walk in step with her. She has plastic knees and a plastic hip. As I looked at our feet I smiled - she was wearing red boots!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I find journaling really helps me sort out my thoughts or at least put them to rest. Once you write a thought down it seems to leave the building - not just spin around a dozen or so times.

It just feels sooooo like I'm back in 10th grade, my boyfriend has ditched me for one of my girlfriends and I have to watch them flirt through home room. Except I'm 50 not 15, and they are doing more than flirting.

I'm getting better, with people prying and asking me questions. I just say.. I'm speechless what can I say and leave it at that.

It helps NOT to talk about it. I've stopped bringing up the subject with friends. Ultimately, if I am right and we had a pretty great marriage for a very long time.. I would think that at some point that may be relevant again but I don't know... in fact I know absolutely nothing. I remind myself of Schultz on Hogan's Heroes.

The problem with this kind of scenario is it puts into question - alot of what you believed to be true about a big chunk of your existence for a very long time - it opens the door to doubt your life. Even though one part of your brain knows this is all about him, not you... there is still something that nags away at you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am going to try to just let go. I'm not giving up on my marriage. I am just not going to spend any more time - puzzling over it - until there is some demonstrable change in his behaviour.

I need to make more lists. Get more done. Focus on regular day to day matters.

For example, I did finally go out and buy a floral duvet cover and sham pillow covers this week. A rich brown and gold chinese brocade. I was trying to go for something different from what we have and I ended up with something he would love too. After so many years together your tastes merge.

I went out today to upgrade my cell phone so it will work in Prague - should I decide I am still going next week - its going to be a last minute judgement call - given Dad's latest in a long series of heart attacks.

The chap who helped me looked terrible - thin, unshaven, like he hadn't slept in months. I smiled at him and wondered what was going on in his life. We are surrounded by so many people who are going through so many things...

PB - I have been following your story. I am a FWW, 4 years into recovery. We now have a new addition to our family, a beautiful baby boy and things are going good. There is the occasional set back, triggers can sometimes still be an issue. I fear that when we're 50 my H will have a mid life crisis like your H's and leave me. My parents divorced and I always felt like my mom got shafted.

You write so eloquently, I read your posts and wonder how I would handle what you are going thru. Having your H and the OW right there, seems almost like God is giving you more than you can handle. Yet, you are keeping your head held high and making plans for the future. I think you should do those things you just posted you would like to do, they sound like a blast.

Your H is going to wake up one day and realize he lost a great woman. I imagine it will be too late by then, you will have realized how great life is w/o him.

Hi Familycomesfirst,

Thanks for you encouragement. I suspect that it is harder for the WS than the BS over the long term. There is just timing differences on when you feel the pain.

Packing up for another overnight road trip right now, going to see Dad on my way to a friend's cottage near Algonquin Park. I can pop into see him on the way back too. I'm trying to figure whether or not I should be going to Europe? It's a tough call. He needs to perk up a bit more or I'm not going to want to go.

It is our Thanksgiving this weekend. My Mom is already booked for two turkey dinners. While I think going for a drive seems an easier option. The colours I hear are just stupendous, I've packed three bottles of great wine... and music of course.

No dog this weekend - he is with hubby - the place seems so empty without him...

Cheers,

PB

Great news about the baby...glad you two have put it behind you ...

Hope everyone had a nice weekend...
PB, no dog? I hope your puppy comes home today. He needs to take you for a run on the beach asap.

Thanksgiving already? I didn't even realize Canada had a Thanksgiving (however, I do understand we "all" need a Thanksgiving no matter how troubled our lives).

I am thankful each day that I wake up and I know I'm alive. That the air I breathe is still fresh (given I live in a city now) and that the water I drink will refresh me. I am thankful I have a roof over my head to protect me and clothes to keep me warm on a cool fall morning. And I am thankful for finding such wonderful people here on MB...and one special one in you PB.

Your journal, although makes me sad at times and wish I could help more from this far away place, is beautiful.
Peace,
holiday

Paradise,
It's funny to hear someone else miss their dog. I took my Dad out hunting this weekend and we had a great time, but he has a one year old lab he's been dying to get out hunting and I had to leave my lab behind in camp. That was harder to do than I could have ever imagined. She has been the one constant in my life for the last six months and it actually hurt to leave her behind. She got to hunt both days but she spent the afternoons with my mother prowling the house looking for me.

I know what you mean about worrying about leaving with your Dad the way he is. I think the only way it will work for you is to sit with him and talk about it. I'm not sure if you should leave because, could you really enjoy the trip worrying about him the whole time? And if something were to happen would you be okay with yourself after? The more time I spend with my Dad now the more I see how much he is failing in his health. It felt really good to get him out and to help him enjoy hunting again. I handled his dog for him and chased his ducks and did not even bring my shotgun that part of the day. Dad used to be the guy who saw everything first. This weekend I had to tell him where the birds were and when to get up to shoot. His diabetes is in his eyes and even after laser surgery twice in the last year he cant see past 50 yards. He is a very proud person and this is the first time I knew it was this bad. It's frightening to see the rock of your life become less than rocklike. I know I would not be able to leave if I thought anything would ever happen to him while I was gone.

On the positive side he was so excited to see the dog he and my mother have spent hours and hours training and taking care of show her natural abilities. She retrieved her first six ducks perfectly. I actually think the only reason he went out was to watch her and see her perform. A double benefit for me because I got to spend a great weekend with both of them and Mom too!

I hope you have your dog back and all went well with the WH during the handoff. Hearing that he still wants to see the dog gives me the feeling that there may be hope for him afterall. Six months later and my EX has yet to even ask to see the dog she raised from a puppy. Mind you this is a 70lb
Lab that used to sleep in our bed (between us if given the opportunity). No alarm clock needed in our house, 6am every morning and you get a big wet kiss that means get up, I gotta go! Still happens every morning just no one to take turns with on getting up first.

Dukhuntr

Hi Holiday,

You have such a great attitude. You are right, we all have so much to be thankful for every day.

Still no dog, I don't see him until tomorrow morning - definitely going into both puppy and beach withdrawal.

We ate turkey, played crazy 8s with the kids for quarters, talked, laughed until the wee hours yesterday. Then up early to walk wooded trails in just the most beautiful park you can imagine today - riotous colours - reds - oranges- yellows - jean jacket kind of cool weather, with a crisp fall flavor to it.

Then a long drive home, to visit with Mom and Dad, he was better today. He has eaten very little in the last week. We changed his diet to soft foods and he seems to be managing better. Mom is telling me to go but I am going to wait until the last minute before I decide. He is still basically sleeping all day - and pretty weak.

Life is like that - sometimes you just can't plan things.

Cheers,

PB

Hi Dukhuntr,

So trick or treat rounds of scotch, lab trials, and lots of time with your Dad - sounds like it was a great weekend.

Not sure what to do about the trip. My Dad is stable, out of the hospital, but weak.

If I don't go, my brother who is there already waiting for me, will be really disappointed. It leaves him at loose ends.

I think I will just wait and see how Dad is on the morning -I am suppose to leave. You are right, I would not be happy if I was a 12 hour plane ride away in an emergency. Even though with today's technology you can stay in constant contact - it is not the same as being an hour's drive away and getting to see him every day.

I can understand why you like the outdoors part of hunting. I really like being outside, somehow nature seems to creep up through the soles of my feet and end up a smile on my face. I've camped, canoed and hiked the park I was in today for over 20 years. I love it.

On the way home, I did a side trip to an old family cottage now sold - where both my husband and I practically grew up. I parked got out looked at the dock where I learned to waterski. I've spent every Thanksgiving for the last 30 years there until now - sad in a way.

Driving the road out, which I have run, walked, biked, thousands of times - I thought of your hands off the wheel quote. Going down quite a big hill - I let go for minute and just smiled. Life is just full of surprises. You never know what you are going to be doing one minute to the next. Sometimes you just have to go with the flow.


Cheers,

PB

Journal,

I can't sleep so I thought I would journal ....

I really miss the dog. It is amazing how a 43 pound bundle of fur can change the atmosphere in a room to homey and alive just by being there.

We sleep together, he snores, and sleeps diagonally so as to take the maximum amount of space, on his back - four paws in the air.

Sometimes at night, I sniff his paws, they smell of seaweed if we have been to the beach. They tell me of his travels. I love dog paw smell.

I think dogs can smell exactly what we have been eating, doing, where we have been, our health issues. I suspect, they even know when you last had sex. I had the begining of this conversation with a friend at the beach last week. We were holding onto each other laughing at the thought of what if humans could do that. If you could sniff someone and think "Oh lucky you - so it was this morning and oh my not with your wife." It would certainly knock the PA business back a step.

In Temple Grandin's book Animals in Translation she has a great section on how when humans and dogs got together, both species brains shrunk - a sign of domestication. We domesticated them. They domesticated us. I mean if aliens landed and saw me walking behind my dog picking up poo - who would they think is the dominant species.

I believe my dog is as smart or smarter than I am about some things and I pay attention to him now. He intensely disliked the OW, wouldn't let her touch him, barked at her all the time. He was definitely trying to tell me something.

Last week I was in a park sitting on a bench with the dog, when another dog we know joined us. He refused to leave. He does this all the time. He sits all meek like in front of his owner but doesn't budge. His owner apologies, says he never disobeys him, that he must really like us.

I looked in that old dog's light brown eyes. "You sly old thing. You smell defatted chicken broth with a touch of garlic and basil on my dog's whiskers. You know he is 8 years old but has perfect teeth (Electric toothbrush-poultry flavored toothpaste! Takes a few months of patient training.). You can see he has alot of fun - it shows in how he moves. You are thinking - yep - she the one Dad. I will bet donuts - that dog's owner is single. His dog is trying to tell him something.... How funny! When he gets put on a leash and trotted away he always looks back...I always smile at him... you sneaky old thing."

They are shrewd. My dog picked me - not the reverse. I was going to adopt a little beautifully groomed cocker spaniel in the cage beside him. Every time I went to pet the cocker spaniel, my dog would groan. So I went over to pet him. He had been starved and beaten for 18 months, weighed all of 20 pounds, a little skelton, completely shaved, except for his head which was a white puff ball. He looked like the dog from Mars Attack. It took me over an hour to convince the WS that this was the one - am I ever glad I did.

Now I think we pretty much have some kind of telepathy going. I find it most poignant when I see him with his Dad. My WS will bend down, the dog jumps up puts his paws around his neck and furiously face licks for all he is worth - tail going like a band. Then he looks over at me... as if to say "Trust me Mom ... Dad is still in this Pod Person, I can smell him....

There is a great website called petfinder.com - you type in you postal or zip code - what you are looking for and it does a geographic proximity search for you.... very handy if you are looking for a great friend.

PB - We have had a daschund since my daughter was 2 (she's 11 now). He is such an integral part of our family. Looking at pictures/video of my family over the last 10 years you see him everywhere. People love him, he is a calm sweet dog that will do anything for a treat. I have never owned a dog for this long, he truly is like our short son (that's what we call him sometimes). He turns 10 this month, I can still remember the day we picked him up. He was so scrawny and shook for a week straight, we thought he was defective!

I love the way he tries to guess my moves, he'll take off walking into a room he thinks I'm heading for. Then he'll come back out with that cute little "where did you go?" look on his face.

I know what you mean about smell, sometimes when he's laying with me, watching TV, I catch a whiff of his doggie smell and it makes me nostalgic. The one thing on him that doesn't smell so good is his breath. I tried the electric toothbrush, I got tired of wrestling him. He clamps his mouth shut and makes it hard to get open.

My family will be heart broken with it's the little guy's time to go. My son will only know him as an older, cranky dog. My daughter loves him tremendously, she will be crushed when he is gone.

It's funny how comforting their unconditional love can be in trying times.

Good afternoon,

On the subject of our wonderful canine friends...our little puppy of 12 1/2 years is not doing so well. We had gotten her from an animal shelter when she was a puppy who someone had abandoned on a busy hwy on Memorial Weekend near the river (Colorado River) in 115 + degree heat.

Shes a cutie. We think part pom and sheltie. She has been so good to us all these years, but when we moved to this new house 2 years ago, the two sets of stairs are taking a toll on her hind legs and God forbid she couldn't go up or down those stairs to follow your every move.
We try to keep her comfortable. Vet thinks she might have congestive heart failure as she coughs and hacks alot.

On a more pleasant note...I always thought paws smelt of Fritos! or corn chex, ha!

I hope the rest of this beautiful fall day is good to all of you,

holiday

I've got one!

He will kiss the hand that has no food to offer; he will lick the wounds and sores that come in encounters with the roughness of the world... When all other friends desert, he remains.

- Goeorge G. Vest

Hi Holiday, Dukhuntr, familycomesfirst,

Well it is 8 hours until I either fly out or cancel. Last night my Dad was doing better, eating, resting comfortably but not moving around much - still pretty much confined to bed. I am going this morning for another visit. I still haven't made my mind up on whether or not to go or cancel.

Hope you have a great 10 days if I go and if I don't go .. I'll talk to you soon...

Cheers,

PB

If you go, I will continue prayers for your Dad and that you have a safe and wonderus trip!
Peace,
holiday

Hi Holiday,

I hope you are well. Cooler there?

Well, it could not have been much more last minute, but after much discussion, I did eventually go. My Mom basically was not going to let me stay if she had anything to do with it and she has lots to do with everything! She is very tiny, but on a cellular level - there definitely are steel atoms in my Mom - tough should have her picture by it in the dictionary.

Your prayers must be working.. because Dad has been looking gradually better each day. I have been saying prayers for your Dad too - for him to be healthier and more self aware.

I have been learning these beautiful sanskrit blessing mantras. I say them daily - misprouncing them terribly - but I am sure all is understood. I find praying to be a very calming practice.

I have a spifffy new cell phone that is set up to let me take calls where ever I am in my travels - I can talk to Dad each day.

The dog is with Daddy.

Interesting day... a quick jaunt to the beach... a long visit with Dad ... then home to speed pack... 15 minutes ... then out the door. Caught my flight, missed my connection.. stuck in Newark for a 24 hour delay! Yowser..

So I have lots of time on my hands. I may try to do a little sight seeing in Manhattan before I fly out. I love the Metropolitan Museum of Art - probably one of my favourite places in the world. Or I may just loaf about. I believe loafing is an entirely under-rated activity. I particularly like loafing after someone has brought coffee to my room - to me that is decadence!

I immediately fell asleep on the plane as soon as I sat down. It has been a tiring week. Lots of driving, long days, stress, worry, high and lows with Dad, plus a heavy work week.

Odd you know - you never know what is going to happen in any given day. Here I sit in Newark, when I should be on my way to Paris. Eating tuna sandwiches with another waylaid traveller, a dance therapist from Switzerland.. talking about Indonesia...to find that he was visiting his sister-in-law who practically lives next door to my Mom.

Life is just an interesting circle...

Cheers,

PB

PAradise,
I'm glad to hear you are going. Now you can "let go of the wheel" for a good long time and enjoy yourself. It figures your would find a handsome(I'm sure of this) and foreign "fellow traveler" to pass the time with. Although I have never seen you I'm sure between your looks and the wit,and charm you posess you don't sit too long by youself in a public place. Enjoy the attention and take some solace in that if WH doesn't dislodge his head from his [censored] there are other roads for you to travel.

I have been thinking about your comment on perspective regularly. All of the things a WS puts us thru are emotionally damaging and stressful but we always need to remember that life could be worse. A good friend of mine went in for treatment of what he thought was a bad back. He is a Dentist and has regular back aches. This time it was particularly constant and more painful than usual so he went in to see a real ortho Doctor. He has pancreatic cancer and has become so sick now he cannot eat. They cant start chemo either. Now they have sent him home to spend his last days with his family. He is amazing. He is planning the celebration of life for himself. He has made everyone promise no funerals and no wake of any sort. He wants a big party to remember him by. I have many fond memories of hunting, fishing and parties we shared and this would match his life perfectly. His nickname in our group was Dr. FUBAR. An acronym for the condition he usually became after a day of hunting or fishing. We will all miss him dearly.In reference to perspective I would much rather be where I am than where he is. I would not want to be his spouse or his children either. He set a very high standard as a husband, father and friend.

Have a wonderful trip and enjoy all you can!

dukhuntr

Holiday,
We haven't heard much from you lately! You must be really working those fingers to the bone! I hope all is well with you and the H. Any other signals lately? Hopefully it was just a bad day for him and you got the wrong feeling from his words and actions. Men do that a lot and if you don't ask he probably won't voluntarily tell you what was up. Take it from someone who has learned a lesson in communicating the hard way.

I tried to deal with my problems on my own and not worry the EX. She sensed the problem and when I did not share the issues she felt left out and pushed away. All I wanted to do was spare her the worry when she could do nothing to help. Not the right wat to handle things on a R. A hard way to learn a valuable lesson!

Have a great weekend!

dukhuntr

Hi,

Well after 42 hours in transit, another 2 hours ¨searching for the right charger for my cell phone, another 4 hours of walking around because my brother would not let me go to bed too early - to ensure I would be on the right sleeping schedule. I got to go to bed. I was practically vibrating I was so tired.

Prague is beautiful. It is old, rich with history, and a language which neither of us understand - even alittle.

The metro is magnificent, with the most incredibly scary escalators -I have ever been on -extremely steep-fast- kind of like being on an amusement ride without being strapped in.

It is great having the phone. I fretted all the while I was in transit, but Dad has been doing better each day. This should be a great trip. I usually only get to spend about a week with my brother every year - so to squeeze in an extra 9 days with him is a treat.

I am sitting in one of many cyber cafes in Prague, the keyboard is different so please excuse anÿ typos. We plan to spend most of this trip in the city because I want to make sure I am in areas where there is good cell reception -¨no cycling.

Funnÿ the places you find yourself. Standing on the Charles Bridge, getting a business call and politely telling them now I will get back to them on something. Our world has just amazing technology.

Got to go... we are on the move to catch a tour... hope everyone is well...

Cheers

PB

Hello everyone,

I had the most enjoyable Friday evening reading all your posts. I felt like I was reading a page turning novel, except I was one of the main characters. I can identify with so much of what you are posting on this thread. I have been talking a lot to my sister and brother and feel as though they are tired of it. My sister in particular is quickly losing patience for what she sees as my obsession with WS and the meaning of his actions & words. When I read on this board I find that I am not crazy and my feelings are validated.

My quick sitch: WH (together 23 years)EA/PA I believe started in Jan '05. Confronted him 4/05, he denied it, moved out 5/05 - still denying, need space, just want to be alone, promise you'll always be my friend, etc. A month later he filed for divorce. He is confused and not sure now if its the right thing but he is still going full throttle with this OW. He tells me he loves me, but we are getting a divorce. Go figure. I am trying to find a job, a place to live, etc. etc. etc. Some days I am great and feel I will have a fabulously happy and fulfilled life and other days I never want to get out of bed. The loneliness can be excrutiatingly painful. Anyway, I'm chipping away at it all and am glad I have company for the ride.

Paradise,
As I started to read your posts, the first thing I thought was oh, he'll come running back in no time. Sybil has nothing on you! I really cannot imagine the charade continuing for very long, especially when he gave up someone like you. I guess that's what is hard to comprehend. Here are all these loving spouses posting on this board. We all realize we have been human and made mistakes in our relationship but we still dig down deep and find infinite love in our hearts to patiently wait for our spouses who have just about destroyed us in their (IMHO) selfish quest for fulfillment. As Dorothy found out in the Wizard of Oz, the answer is within and we all have always had it. We need look no further than ourselves to solve our unhappiness.

I love Frank Pittman and thought he summed the situation up pretty well in this comment:

After 42 years of working with over 10,000 couples in various states of crisis, I can confirm that divorce has already become increasingly popular and is now considered not just normal but the expected and perhaps inevitable final chapter of marriage. Divorce is considered, by the media, by the TV and newspaper advice giving "experts," and even by many of the professional therapists, particularly the youngest and least experienced ones, to be the treatment of choice for mild depression ("I’m just not happy,") for unpleasantness ("I felt verbally abused") and for sexual attractions to passing strangers or casual friends ("I must not be in love with my mate.") All baby boomers are sure they deserve an ideal partner and when they discover they don’t have one they know they should be free at any moment to dump this imperfect one, put the kids in storage, and go back to the perfect partner collection for another try.

I imagine right now my husband thinks he plucked one from the "perfect partner pool". Time will tell. Although, to be quite honest, I live in fear that he did and I'm history. Anyhow, I admire all of you for your grace, honesty, and love. May it be returned to you tenfold.

Hello shattered, nice to meet you. I'm sorry to hear how your husband is acting. Sounds like a mid-life crisis, like PB's husband.

You sound like a very nice person. Your husband must be crazy.

I know what you mean, too many people are just giving up these days. They throw in the towel way too soon. I hope that doesn't happen with me and my H. We are happy now, who knows about 5 years from now. I know how things can change.

Anyway, I wish you luck. You'll get lots of great support here.

Hello Family Comes First - Good Name! It is nice to meet you as well. I wish you and your husband all the best in your recovery.

Shattered, I'm glad you found the forum, and welcome.

Would you consider that you in Plan A right now?

NTL

Hello Shattered,
Sounds like your WH and my WW read the same novel. Seems to me that telling the truth becomes painful for them at some point in an A and all manner of stories spew forth. From your post you seem to be handling it almost as well as paradise. We all have the painful days and how you deal with them is different for all of us. I hope you dont spend too many days in bed but remember that's up to you now. Go out and treat yourself to something you have been putting off or just never had time to do. Glad to have you here, there are some great minds posting here with truely insightful thoughts. Use them to help you as I have and enjoy paradise's journal. It's going to be published someday if we have our say!

dukhuntr

Hi Everyone,

I was thinking today my WS thinks life is a buffet and would just like to order another dish. They don¨t necessarily want to end the relationship... they would just like another course. that is not on the menu.

Sorry you are here Shattered. I think sometimes you will never really know the reasoning behind their actions. Probably because they don't either.

Enjoying Prague immenselz, it is just a great place to visit.. wonderful music, food, beautiful vistas, a verz livelz place. We went to the Reduta Jazz Club last night, Bill Clinton played his sax there once. The place was full... every seat taken..some were even dancing1

Tonight it is an Organ Recital in one of the many very beautiful churches. We have been out early day, walking, doing the galleries, sites...museums... interesting place.

Travel is great when you are hurting. It takes your mind of things. You are surrounded by new things, sounds, smells... and there is no time to dwell on what is bothering you.

Sorry got to go...¨

Cheers,

PB

Pardon the typos = very different keyboard

Hey guys,
You are going to love this one from the EXWW. I have been avoiding all contact with her and on Friday the day before my birthday she e-mails me. Basically a nice birthday wish. I thanked her and she responded with some stuff about our kids that needed little to no attention at all. First contact other than about the kids in 45 days.

Next thing I know she is in a full rationalization of why she she started her A and then she tells me I would have done the "same thing if I were in her shoes". Right down to the part where she said "I must have been craving attention more than I thought". Happy birthday huh! Well I got mildly aggitated(grinding my teeth) and I did a full description of how I felt about the OM, his morals and his ethics. Today I am getting e-mails from her friends telling me to grow up. She told them I went off for no reason and got nasty with her. All I said about her was I still loved her and I would always be nice to her. And that I still held some hope that we might be a family again.

Can the fog be so thick as to confuse disrespect and venom directed towards the OM as directed towards her? Can a WS be so focused on the OP as to take OP criticisms personally? It certainly appears so to me. It doesn't make sense but nothing in her A has so why should this be any different I guess. Weird part is it hasn't upset me near as much as I would have expected. I am starting to feel detached from her and sorry for them both. Maybe a sign I just need to stay as far away from them as possible and let their house of cards come down without my input at all.

Wish me luck I am starting to enjoy listening to her rationalizations. Each one is new and different and it is fun to nit-pick the discrepencies in each new version.

dukhuntr

Hi Duck Hunter,
Happy belated birthday! It's interesting that she contacted you for your birthday. I bet she spent a lot of time thinking about if she should call, what she should say, etc. That means something, you are still on her mind. The rationalization is just the guilt. I think it's the only way they can come to terms with the person they've become. I also had some choice words for the OW. I hadn't really said anything about her before but suddenly I was feeling a lot of anger towards her. It was our anniversary a few weeks ago (or would have been) and we were together to discuss some issues. I told WH what I thought of "her" and her morals, etc. and that he should pass that on to her and say happy anniversary for me. He also stuck up for her and said something to the effect that I can't blame her for what happened. Oh yeah, she's just an innocent bystander in all this, right? Anyway, I figure I have to keep my comments to myself about her because it just backfired into him having to stick up for her and I certainly don't want that.
I feel for you and I can feel the love you have for your wife. Lots of people get divorced and remarried, you never know. Hang in there.

Have I been doing a plan A or a plan B? No. Well, maybe a half baked Plan A with intermittent LB's. I guess I don't have a lot of hope but I want to have hope. I'm just afraid it might be emotional suicide to start pining away for him in the hopes he'll come back. But the more I read here, maybe I should try a firm Plan A. But then again, when I try to act that way, I feel like I'm just making this all so easy for him to carry on his affair and eat his cake. He has told me many times he wants to "be friends" with me. I figure that's his guilt, he won't have to feel bad about what he's done to me. So Plan A confuses me.

What do you think of this. I got a card in the mail from WH today. It was kind of a support card I guess. Said I know you're having a tough time right now, but there is nothing I can say to take that away (oh yes there is!). It went on to say so let's talk about how wonderful you are . . . what a strong person you are . . . you will make the right choices with whatever life hands you. Then he signed it Love always. What the? This was a printed card, not his words. I feel like the other shoe is about to drop. I want to think that this card means something like he's still not sure about what he's doing, etc. but I don't know. Do wayward spouses that have filed for divorce usually send you support cards for pain they're causing you and sign it "Love always"???? How do I respond? I didn't tell him I received it yet.

Hello,

Hope you are all well...sorry to be MIA. Very busy weekend and now with H in school and home almost every night (first time in over 22 years as being a firefighter has kept him away 24 hours at a time). I'm now cooking bigger meals etc and not too much "me" time lately.

PB...glad to see you writing from abroad. How wonderful to wake up each morning in a beautiful place. (Hey how about naming your journal...book..."Writing from a Broad" with no disrepect of course <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.)

DH...happy belated birthday! Hmm, the wife, wow. Can't quite figure that one out. And why do her friends feel the need to "save" her (stick up for her) to date?

Shattered, welcome...sorry to see you here, but I hope we all can help each other in some way.



I don't think so. Sounds like he's being pressured in some way and is still very confused. Does the OW know he's sending you cards? I doubt it. I don't think I would respond to it. But continue your firm plan A. I don't think it's showing the WS that you condone the A, just that you are a person with a great heart.

holiday

Writings from a Broad,

Hi Holiday,

I love it... great phrase. I'm sitting in a cyber cafe, drinking a very large expresso. Cold here, I actually have on my pyjama top under my zip up fleece, mid 50s. We have a small bag syndrome in our family - never travel with more than a very small satchel - mind is the size of a briefcase. The end result is that there is not alot to choose from if you get the weather wrong. Reminds me of being a kid, something I would routinely do, wear my pyjamas under my clothes, they are cozy and it makes you feel like you have not really gotten out of bed yet.

How long is hubby in school. I hope you get some me time soon.

Dad is doing well,his voice was really strong and normal last night. It is great having the phone, it allows me to relax.

I'm enjoying my time with my brother. He is mÿ big brother so prone to being a tad 'organized' shall I say. He is very bright, speaks five languages, chess master in his teens.. the only areas where I was able to best him were sports and whistling. Poor man just can't whistle. All through our growing up together, whenever he was being bossy, I would just smile at him and whistle... still am...
Let me take that back, he is sitting beside me at another terminal... counting on his fingers... not good with numbers my bro...

I've been missing my dog terribly... not hubbÿ..just the dog.. Prague is a great dog city. Dogs go everywhere, shopping malls, offices, hair salons... Opps a dog just walked into the cyber cafe ... at first I thought he was on his own... but he did decide to bring his human.

They are very family oriented. The city shuts down after midnight.. metro closes...Children are the centre of things here.

Music is very big .. particularly classical music.

I'm very glad I decided to go.. I've not shed a single tear since I packed my bag...

Take care...

Cheers,

PB

Hi Dukhuntr,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY..

I hope you had a great day. It makes me hope things may look up for you two...if she still remembers the important dates.

Dissing the OP is a lost cause. It does more harm than good... far better to not to think of them at all. Truth is that it takes two to tango..

It is refreshing to be away. I have virtually stopped thinking about all the sad stuff. So much better not to be trying to understand something which is not rational.


I watched an inflight movie on the way out in french which translated to 'The Beast Rising'. It was the story of my life. Hubby leaves nice long term wife for new bit of fluff. It ends with the wife writing a stage play and being very successful... She reinvents herself... there is a lesson there.

Opps my brother has finished and is sitting with his satchel on his lap giving me long pointed looks.. I've got to go..

Kid sister's lot in life to always be running to catch up


Cheers,

PB

Shattered,
Keep up on the plan A as long as you can hold out and feel good about yourself doing it. Plan B is rough for the first few weeks. NC is harder to maintain than you can imagine. When it gets to the point you just can't resist the LB's that's when you go to plan B. Hang in there and emulate paradise, she doe's this with style and class. Your card and my e-mail are signs that our WS's really may still have a conscience and take it as a sign there is hope. Granted they may just feel some need to show us some sympathy to feel better about themselves.

I have given up trying to figure out what my EX is thinking when she does this stuff. The fog they are in doesn't allow for much logic. Take care of yourself and pay attention to your life and let your WS sort himself out.

dukhuntr

Hey Holiday,
I have been wondering how you are doing. Sounds like your hands are full and your schedule is really booked up. I think back to those days in my life and miss them. Everyone is so busy life seems to find a natural and even balance on its own. It's those times when one spouse or the other is idle and the other busy that create tensions and LB's IMHO.

Yes my EX's friends that remain feel some weird compulsion to defend her at every opportunity. Mind you there are only two or three that feel this and all of them have had divorces in recent years. They seem to feed off of one another in a defensive mode. I have always hoped one of them would encourage the EX to look at what is going on and think. None of them will associate with the OM that I know of. All of them have told me they beleive he is all wrong for her and just want to be there when he dumps her. She was there for them and they feel the need to return the compassion. Not one of them has ever had the fortitude to tell her this stuff straight out though. I think they have a better understanding of her emotions than I do and wont diss him for fear of alienating her like I have.

Take care and don't be such a stranger. I have missed your posts.

dukhuntr

Paradise,
You sound truely happy and stress free. Good for you! And from what I hear you are not "at the wheel", your brother is. Live it up and don't miss a single opportunity to do anything. Thanks for the birthday wish it was a great weekend with the kids.

My dog is all worn out and beat up from hunting 5 out of the last 10 days. Poor thing is out of shape from inactivity while Dad was in his funk. She was so tired at one point I could not coax her out of her kennel even with dog cookies. She was in the back of the truck and was afraid if she got out I would leave her in camp one afternoon. Too tied to move but afraid to miss a hunt! I have enjoyed watching her do what she was bred to do more than anything else this season. Watching her work is a thrill all its own and she has matured into a teriffic retriever.

I know what you mean about dissing the OM it did not help me in the slightest. I have never done it before and I should not have this time either. It gives him more credibility than he deserves. I just lost it when the EX suggested that I would have done the same thing she did if I were in her shoes. She e-mailed me yesterday and said she wanted NC now with me. I simply said that was what I requested months ago and I was fine with that. Shortly after that is when her friends started chiming in. Who knows what is happening! I am just going to do my own thing and try to be more like you in the way I go about life. Live for now, not what life was before. I even went down and got some info on Scotland and Ireland. I have always dreamed of going there to play golf and visit the single malt scotch distilleries I enjoy so much.

Have a great time the rest of your trip and keep the journal going! This could be at least one chapter and maybe two by the time you are back.

dukhuntr

Journal, ¨

Just landed in Cesky Krumlov, a truly beautiful world heritage site - postcard quaint.

Travelled here by train, on a sunny crisp fall day. We are staying at a historic inn and looking forward to a walk about and visiting the local sites.

Being away has been great for my frame of mind... it reinforces what you sometimes forget... that it is a very big interesting world out there...

Scotch and golf... sounds like the makings of happy memories... go for it dukhuntr..

Checking out... pun intended..

Paradise

Oh, it sounds beautiful...you and your words.
Hope the weather stays nice throughout your journey...

As for H paramedic class...it's for the next 8 months. He took another test today and is ready to give up. We sat and I read him his books today. He has always had difficulty (since his school days) with reading comprehension. If he reads aloud or with someone reading he retains alot more information. He wanted to be tested for AADD (?) but is in fear that that will be something frowned upon in the future when applying for promotional tests etc.

Oh well. The stress level will remain in our home for sometime. This is when I worry about him the most...when he doesn't feel confident in himself. He was talking about a trip to CA for a meeting (we have invested in stocks with a genetic testing company) to hear the latest information. I told him, unless I was going with him, I felt it wouldn't be a good idea. He agreed .

Off to finish making dinner,

holiday

Hi Holiday,

It sounds like you two have set up a strategy to deal with away or stress related temptations. I'm glad... who needs more complications.

I!ve spent alot of time trying to remember things prior to an exam only to know I will immediately forget them afterwards. I always found writing things out to be helpful... also explaining them to someone else.... is good too.. it makes you express the info in a way that helps you understand...¨

It is really beautiful here but nippy... Enjoying both the time with my brother and the sites... I lucked out in the brother department... he is a great guy... a truly nice person...

He has actually been trying to give me compliments... not a behaviour I have ever seen from him... I guess he thinks I need them right now ... very sweet..

Getting away has been great... it just helps to be forced to think of other things... I!ve spent way too much time this past summer thinking about - just awful stuff.

I hope you enjoy your road trip...sounds like it will be fun.

Cheers,

PB

Journal,

Awoke with a start this morning around four a.m., I dreamt I heard my WS calling my name. It was so loud and clear... spooky..

I read for an hour..then turned off the light and lisened to my current favourite K.D.Lang album..then promptly got weepy ... so I dressed and walked up to the castle around five thirty a.m. Streets were deserted.. sat up on one of the benches on a high stone bridge and waited for dawn with my camera ready.

This is a just fairy tale setting. Incredibly beautiful... Enjoyed the dawn with a very shy Japanese couple ... who sat huddled together in the chill ... our breath forming clouds of vapour in the air.

Healing is a funny process.. there are moments when I think I am completely over it. Then other moments where it is so completely fresh. The pain, bewilderment, disappointment are like it just happened yesterday.

I still do not understand after truly loving a woman for twenty five years how you can suddenly decide you are not in love any longer. I know my husband really loved me. I have absolutely no doubt of that. I suspect I will never understand what happened to that love.

I am not sure what is happening to the love I have for him either right now. It seems to be spiraling slowly down into the realm of memory. The kind of reverie, you need to shake yourself out of because it no longer appears to be part of today's reality.

Even through the darkest phase
Be it thick or thin
Always someone marches brave
Here beneath my skin...

have a beautiful day!

Paradise,
Yes we all wonder how a WS can turn their back on their former life and love so quickly. I myself have asked her that over and over. I don't think they know what changed for them. Dr. Haley is right in that we are all wired for an A. Given the right set of circumstances and an OP with lower morals than what I call "a normal person" any of us could stray. I like to think I am above that but maybe I have never had the right combination of circumstance and OP in my life. I know I beleive I would never be able to actually do this, but I never imagined someone I was with for 28 years could either.

I think once your have crossed the boundary into an A you have to do so many mental gymnastics to rationalize what you have done that the love and respect for the BS has to be locked away and ignored. Simple problems in the relationship have to be magnified to emense proportions, important dates and events trivialized. All manner of thought has to change to allow for the emotional and spiritual pain you are inflicting to be made meaningless or less important to you. All emotion and energy are transferred over to the OP in huge amounts and over a short period of time. I have a theory that this just does not leave room in their emotions for the BS to receive any consideration and certainly not any simpathy. WS are in the mindset that the old relationship is dead now that discovery and exposure has occurred. Their focus is now squarely on the OP to meet all their needs. And all we can do is wait and see if they can suceed.

I myself find it hard to beleive someone could replace us after such a long marriage. I felt a connection to my EXWW that was as clear and strong as ever even during the first eight months of her affair. It is going to take a very giving and focused individual to fill these roles and keep the A alive. That is our hope , that the OP really is the shallow, incomplete person we see them as and the A will lose it luster and rational thought will return to the WS.

I hope all goes well today on yur trip. You sound wonderful and light hearted until you speak of your sich. Being in such a wonderful setting would inspire some reflection and that's not all bad sometimes. Keep it positive because you are still an articulate and wise person who will come out of all of this better off no matter how it ends.

dukhuntr

Hi Holiday, ¨

What a lovely poem. Thank you.¨¨

How are you doing... Sounds like between running your ebay business, your family and your home, it has been really busy.

Life is like that sometimes. There are just big chunks of time or years where it is difficult to feel like you get any time for you. Either work, family or other priorities are running large.

When I was really booked up. I would often stay up late a couple of extra hours or get up earlier by a couple of hours to read, or poodle about - just so it did not always seem like I was absolutely having to be somewhere or do something I couldn't really control. Of course the end result is you just get really tired -not always the answer.

Now I have more time than I have had in decades and it seems to stretch out to the point where I have to plan to fill it up. I like being busy but busy takes focus, concentration and discipline. My focus, concentration and discipline pretty much tanked this summer. I suspect that will improve as I mend.

Travelling in Europe has been a very interesting experience. As I sit in Cesky Krumlov, I am only an eight hour train ride through the Austrian Alps to Venice. Everything is so close, incredibly diverse and rich with history. There is a patina to life here of ages past that you can practically touch.

Wishing you a great day with your family and friends.. with hopefully at least an hour for you to just be.

Cheers,

PB

Hi Dukhuntr,

Thank you for your thoughtful perspective. We are both living a very old story ... One that is being played out somewhere virtually every second to someone. It helps to know how other people cope. To know that others find it as difficult to deal with as I do..

Life is such a subjective experience. I would love to hear an uncut unedited version of my husband's viewpoint. I suspect I would both laugh and cry.

He has been telling people, that we both agreed to end the marriage, we both were finding it stale, we will continue to be each other's best friend, we will continue to work together and oh he has met someone new who is delightful.

My husband always was one of the most direct, honest people I have ever met. Never any icing on the cake with him, just the straight goods. To hear that he is lying like this makes me just shake my head.

I believe triangles are difficult for all three parties. Often the OW is hurt, humiliated, used. The WS has to practically deconstruct themselves to live with their dissonance over their actions sometimes. Other times I think the power of their wants just floods away all reasoned thought. The BS well we feel plain hurt, abused and out and out dumb or any combination of the above.

Triangles suck... With that less than clever thought I will sign off and catch up to my bro who wants to hike the hills today.. I will look around with open eyes, glad to be here, alive, vertical and breathing.

Every experience you have - bad or good has elements that you can learn from to make your life better, you better...

Cheers,

PB

PS...PB, poem from "Constantly Craving"...my KD Lang favorite!
Have a great day,
holiday

Journal,

Funny, how when you live with someone for so long, you use their brains to store info. I had to give a little talk before I left for my trip. I found myself driving around close to but not at where I had to be. I ended up pulling over and calling my WS to ask for specific instructions.

His brain holds all my finding places info, all mechanical skills and understanding. Pumping gas is a relatively new life skill for me. I am a 50 year old woman, who until very recently never pumped gas. It just magically appeared in my tank. If I was running low, the maybe five or six times a year I would just go to a full service bay and smile. Easier for me and an absolute treat for the dog... a legitmate cause apparently to go into a barking frenzy with his tail pounding out a fierce crescendo.

One day last summer, driving down from up north in a teary fog, I managed to pull up to a diesal pump had the nozzle in my car before I realized what I was doing. Fortunately, it didn't fit. I then promptly felt like a complete fool, pulled up to a correct pump, and locked the keys in the car, on a very hot afternoon, with the dog inside and a long line of weary gas hungry travellers lining up behind me.

I stood there, set my timer on my watch and with a full adrenalin rush, ran around until I had found a coat hanger, and screw driver, I had the car door open in four minutes. My husband would have done it in 90 seconds. When it did finally swing open, to my dog's delight, I thought hey I can do this.

I will have to start doing things I am really bad at. I have for example never checked my oil, don't know how, never changed a tire, don't know how. I can paint, wallpaper and change light bulbs that is about it. Fuses would be a challenge.

Amazing how there are such distinct divisions of labour. In our household, I ran the finances, did all the cooking, cleaning, kept the social calender, all gift buying, household purchases, clothing purchases. My husband maintained the cars, bought the hi fi equipment and all sporting goods.

One day he called me like 8 times maybe three or four years ago, to find out when I was coming home from work. When I did get home, there was a beautiful mountain bike hiding in my kitchen bestrewn with ribbons... I knew if I kept typing eventually I would make myself smile...

I too have a similar situation as you. My dad has advanced Parkinson's Disease(in a nursing home)and my oldest daughter has personal problems(that I can't mention). I thought this would bring my husband and myself closer together. Instead, when I needed him most - he betrayed me, had an affair with his secretary - whom he still works with. It's been 4 long, cushing months. What is "mid-life" crisis - an excuse for cheating???

My husband's OW looks older, has been "around the block" many times with people in his office. I know if people would find out about his affair they would think he's crazy - she's a nothing - but yet he was involved with her emotionally and sexually. Men look at me and comment to my husband how attractive and lucky he is. To him, it didn't matter.

I was married and divorced before I met my husband and also had several failed relationships.For 20 years he has held this against me - for I was not a perfect wife to him. We have been married over 18 years with 2 children. So, he told me he wanted to even the score (with women). I was completely faithfull to him, always, and treated him like a king. Yet it wasn't enough. he OW listens to all the nonsense the man gives her, just so she can be with him. The OW always wants what she thinks you have. Your betrayed spouse, I know, doesn't see her in the "real light", real situations - if he did, he wouldn't stay for a minute.

He never wanted to talk about anything or communicate with me. He would pick fights with me so he would have an excuse to talk to the OW. Sometimes, husbands just refuse to talk to the wife - I found this out. The OW preys on this.

We're trying to work things out, but it's very hard because he works with her. I couldn't leave my husband because I love him - so I'm putting up with his nonsense for now. But, with all that is happening to me, the weight of the world is on my shoulders.

I guess we're all in the same boat?

Hi Soooohurt,


I'm sorrÿ that you are here. It must be devastating to live with that kind of situation day to day.

It really is a hard call, when there are children involved. Do you stay and allow it to go on in front of you and bear all the hurt from it fresh everyday. Or do you cut and run.

I'm lucky in some respects, with only a dog to be concerned about. Plus I'm not dependent on my husband financially. For women who are trying to keep their children fed, clothed, schooled and give them a normal life - it must be incredibly challenging.

The program on this site has seemed to work for many. The choice is to I guess suck it up and do a plan A as best you can manage it. Or ask him to leave and adopt a Plan B.

If you post your story on the General Questions section, I am sure some of the veterans would be able to give you sage advise.

Personally, as I have a low tolerance for pain, I would ask that he leave the job, never have contact with the woman again, and start the program outlined here for improving marriages. If he responds with a no - I would ask him to leave - in a nice calm fashion - saying look it just not something I can live with. He has to make a choice at some point. Allowing it to go on with your knowledge is just not going to make anyone happy in the long term. Frankly it is really bad for your self esteem.

It does not sound like the OW will make him happy. It is also true that allowing him to cake eat, will not make him happy either. When you hurt someone else, it is unavoidable that you also hurt yourself.

Notwithstanding, the cheating aspect, when this happens clearly there have to be issues within the relationship that require caring attention... work both individuals have to do to make things better. While it is easy to be harsh with the WS they have a perspective too... which has some merit. This coming on top of other problems... is tough and his timing speaks volumes.

Good luck... I will remember you in my daily prayer...

Cheers,

Paradise

Journal,

This is the last day, Ï have with my brother until next summer perhaps. We are back in Prague...to do another concert, walk about, and just general lyming.

It has been a great trip. Alway interesting sharing digs with others for a time. You learn about how they live each day. For example, to my utter surprise, my brother likes to have long hot baths while lisening to opera... booming strains of Verdi and clouds of billowing steam ... exit with him when he is finally finished in the bathroom.

Always alittle sad to see the end of a holiday approach. This is the longest vacation I have taken in probably eighteen years. I am going to do more very soon. When you do get away ÿou wonder why did¨I wait so long..

Thanks Paradise Blue,

Yes, I am living it over and over every day. I try so hard not to, but I know the OW is in the background. I can picture her face, her voice, everything and I can picture them together - only imagine what things they did together. Believe it or not, my husband even invited her over to our home on Memorial Day for a picnic while he was having the affair. What a slap in my face - double hurt!

My husband insists things have to take time to transfer her. She is in a union and has been working in his place for many years. According to him it has to be done right or it will "blow up in his face".

I'm trying to give him a reasonable amount of time to get her transfered. But, what is a reasonable amount of time? What if he can't transfer her? He WON'T leave his job. Do I just except this? I love him.

I was working before my dad went in the nursing home. I can certainly go back to work to support myself. But, I can't be without him. It's not that I need him for financial support - I need him because I love the jerk! I want to believe him. I honestly think he has nothing sexual or physical to do with her. But still, them working together just constantly reminds me of them being together in the past.

One other thing I want to mention. Now that he had an affair, he is not trusting me. I never was unfaithfull to him, never. But lately he's checking my e-mails and questioning me on everything. This is another thing that is driving me crazy. Is this normal???

Sooohurt,

You are going thru what all of us are living and yes it does get easier to live with. It does not ever become acceptable. My EXWW is stll with the OM everyone thinks is totally inappropriate for her. He's only a few years older than our daughter, wants his own family, etc. This does not make it any less real or painful for you or I. Nor does it make any sense for us. I have struggled for 7 months to put logic to it and you just can't.

Somehow, someway these OP's fill a need or are an escape for our WS's. The fact that they are not as attractive, financially secure, committed, ect., only makes it more difficult to understand and accept for us. The reality is our WS's still feel a stronger connection to them than us. Here's our challenge, how do we reverse this and put their emotions back in our favor? Plan A is difficult because it's all one way at first. You are the only one working on your marriage and he is more concerned about himself and the OP. As long as you are not doing a bunch of LB's hopefully he will realize you have been been there all along and do still care for him and you are the reality in his life not her.

I know I am not the best example of applying the MB principles but I never found this concept and site until I had done all the wrong things already. I wish I had it to do over again, I would still be married and would have a much better chance of recovery than I do now. Hang in there and let us help you thru the bad days, there will be many.
Patience and solid nerves will get you thru this. Paradise is as good an example of this as I have seen in this site. Look inward and improve yourself and let the rest run its course.

We are all hoping the best for you however it turns out.


dukhuntr

just wanted to say hello. hello!
you are in my prayers.
very busy week.
peace,
holiday

Thanks for your advice dukhuntr,

I just had another fight with my husband over the phone - same old stuff - the OW is still in his office. But now lately, it seems he tries to make ME look bad in front of family, kids,friends, etc. Talking to everyone about all the guys I went out with 25 years ago (I've been with my husband for 20 years) how I was married before and the marriage failed because of me (my ex was abusive) - really hurtfull and mean things. I think it makes him feel less guilty about what he did.

This is just another thing that is driving me to "the brink". I told him it's got to stop. The OW has got to be transfered. I'm going around in circles and it never ends.

I just don't know what to do anymore. Can it work with the OW there? Am I being unreasonable? He says he isn't involved with her anymore - nothing to do with her. Am I just a "sap" wanting to believe everything he says? That's the way I feel.

One day we're fine the next day we are fighting like "cats and dogs". How long can this go on?

Sooohurt,
This is exactly what you don't want to do if you can muster up the courage and will not to. Everything he is doing is "fog talk". It seems to me they do it to rationalize in their own minds the pain and suffering they know they are creating for their families and friends. Ignore it and let it run off like water off of my favorite bird's back(ducks). If you really do want to save this marriage you need to be firm on him having NC with the OW without LBing him away from you.

You need to present yourself as strong yet understanding to his poor choices. Not as judgemental and angry. This is where I went wrong and I'm divorced because I could not stop myself from doing this same thing. I know how hard this sounds and is, I failed at it. Allow yourself the time and space to cool off and think about what it is you really want. In the mean time you are giving the WH the same time and space to think not just react to you. Cornered humans react much the same as animals, they lash out and attack when backed into a small space. Do you really want him back if he does not want to be there? Give him the time and space to decide and make yourself be the person he turns to for his EN's. Be the safe haven he needs and he will see it eventually.

Don't try to fix things immediately, all of this takes lots, and lots of time. Use it to work on yourself and your issues. We all have our own demons and quirks to work on. Now you can improve yourself and feel better for it. I know its easy for someone else to say all of this but remember we all have been thru it. Its terribly hard to do but your marriage depends on you right now , if not more that him. There is not a lot you can do to help, just a lot you can do to impede progress or drive him further away.

Get your anger and frustrations out there to us in these forums and vent to us not him. We will listen and help as much as we can and no withdrawals will be made from his love bank that way. Keep it up you still have him from what I hear so you have a lot more hope than you think.

dukhuntr

Dear Dukhuntr,

Thanks for writing. I just had another fight with him. He has been indicating that the OW is in the process of being trasnfered - well at least he was taking the steps with the proper personnel. I thought he was just jerking me around, so, I called up Human Resources. Note, my husband told me on several occasions that he talked to the HR Director and other higher up personnel several times about this - even that I would leave him if nothing was done about the transfer. Well, much to my surprise, well maybe not too much surprise, the HR Director doesn't know about any transfer for the secretary. He said my husband hasn't told him anything.

I confronted him on this issue when he came home from work. My husband said he DID talk to the proper people and I should believe him, not other people-they are not going to tell me any information. I know these people - talked to them before. I begged him to tell me the truth - come clean. He swears he is working on the tranfer.

He stormed out of the house and went to his mom's! What are you views and comments on this?

Sooohurt,

I'm sorry to say that it sounds like he is cake eating. Have you exposed the A at his place of work? I find it hard to believe a union company does not have a policy in place regarding relations between supervisors and employees. Even if you haven't exposed there, a well placed call to the HR director informing him of their relationship might hasten the transfer you desire.

Exposure will fuel a rage if you have not already done it so brace yourself for some fury on his part. He will tell you all about how much damage it has caused and so on and so forth. Again, all fog talk. Let it go and don't respond unless you have read up on reverse babble here. I can't think that quick so I just don't respond any more. Read Paradise's posts and try to be as patient and detached with him as she is with her WS when he is doing his thing. Use her actions and thoughts to guide you, I cant believe her WS can look her in the eye any more without feeling like the total louse he has been.

No matter what, present yourself as someone that can and will overcome anything he does. Show him that what he is doing is to himself and you will not be dragged down to his level with him. And most of all let him know how much you love him, but at the same time you won't share him and live that life any more. That is the boundary you have to set. What you will and won't accept while you are together.

Read up on the MB principles on this website and by all means find a MC or IC to help you get thru this. My MC/IC has changed my life considerably over the last 7 months and I will never regret a penny spent on this. Lastly I hope you have some sort of physical outlet to immerse yourself in. I went to the gym everyday for 12 weeks after D-Day and lost 45 pounds. Without that I think I would have done something stupid to either them or myself at some point. To much to think about and not enough ability to change anything is a hard thing on your psyche. Sweating it out seems to soothe the harshness and make things easier to deal with.

Be the eye of the storm and let the winds swirl around you, not within you.

dukhuntr

Thanks again Dukhuntr,

My husband is a director, he is not in the union, but the OW is. She has been with the company for 25 years or so. She has only been his secrtary for 1 year or so. I did speak to the Human Resources Director, but didn't go into detail. Just asked if my husband is or is having the transfer being taken care of. The HR director, flat out told me he didn't know of any transfer. Wouldn't he mention my husband talked about it to him (which my husband said he did on several occasions). I told the HR director I wouldn't put up with her working with him - I had my facts straight and he can talk to my husband. I also put in a call to someone even higher up (which my husband said he talked to). I have yet to get a call from that person - have to see what he says.

My husband said he will leave me if I make a scandal! He will get another job - which now he says he can't do. Make sense? Not to me.

We tried a therapist. Didn't work. My husband didn't think he did anything wrong - didn't know why he was in therapy.

Now all he is doing is saying bad things to friends, family, kids, etc. to make ME look bad because of what HE's done. I'm so tired of all this back and forth bickering. I didn't do anything, yet I am paying for everything. He wants to call all the shots. I don't want to break up our marriage but he keeps pushing and pushing.

I too do lots of things to keep my mind off of this. My dad has advanced Parkinson's Disease and I visit him every day. I do stuff around the house. I'm going back to work - I had to leave because of my dad. I also do stuff with my 2 girls - things run so smoothly when I'm with them.

Thanks for letting me get a little anger out.

Sooohurt,

If you read MB's guides and all the available materials you will come to see all of this is per the same script of an affair. Affair babble is what he is telling family and friends bad about you to make his indescretions seem less than they really are. Exposure to these people will reveal all of this and make him sit up and take note that you wont put up with it anymore. If you dont expose and the affair continues what have you gained in you silence, continuation of the status quo? Same as his workplace, expose the A and see what happens. Without exposure all I see is him continuing to straddle the fence between the two of you for as long as he can get away with it.

You have given him ample time to bow out of this gracefully and without scandal. You deserve better and you should expect more of him than you are getting. Show him your strength and do this for yourself. Let him know you have your own values and you can't go on forever living a life of deception and grief. It's clear to me you are meeting many of his important EN's or he would already be gone. Ask him to meet your EN's in return. Fill out the Emotional Needs Questionairre with him and see where the missing pieces are.

Our thoughts and hopes will be with you and I hope things turn around soon. Keep positive and pay special attention to your children they have to be feeling this too.

dukhuntr

Dear Dukhuntr,

My husband thinks all the stuff on this site is nonsene - just a bunch of loosers and hopeless soles. I guess I'm one of them.

I think I mentioned before that I honestly believe he isn't involved with the OW any more. I confronted the two of them at the office and spoke to her personally, in front of him. I asked how she can do this to another woman? She admitted that she loved him, thought she would marry him someday. She told me he indicated, not said, he would leave me. My husband then blurted out that he didn't say he was going to leave me. The OW told me the affair was over. Then I told her to leave him alone or I would beat the crap out of her. Called her an ugly big nosed, wrinkly, #"$%^.

The door was closed, no one in the office heard anything. I felt good after saying that to her. When she left the office she said, let him go he doesn't love you. I felt that I got stabbed in the heart.

This is the reason I think he's not seeing here. What do you think? Is it possible. Can he work with her and not bother with her?

Journal,

Arrived safely at home, to estatic puppy and much tail wagging, body wagging joy....

Met two ladies in their 70s on the plane today, they were sister-in-laws, both widows. They had traveled to Cambodia and the Czech Rebulic this year because they decided to see the world in alphabetic order. Currently, they are working on countries of interest that begin with C.. very cute, savy world travellers.

It always strikes me as strange how fast things shift when you travel. Yesterday evening I was sitting in Glam-Gallas Palace, under five enormous crystal chandeliers in a beautiful baroque room lisening to a classical orchestra, imagining graceful women in elaborate heavy gowns stepping delicately about the room. Now I am home.. dog at my feet...

I enjoyed the trip and in particular my brother's company. He is getting older and while he probably wouldn't admit it, he liked the city time.. doing concerts, walking, exploring. We stayed in a modest 5th floor walk up, apartment suite, several metro stops from Old Towne but with a private bath and kitchen. He barely grumbled about the expense... a sure sign he was having fun!

Going to make a quick cup of tea, give the dog a walk and then I'm off to visit Dad.

``````````

Dad looks much the same, not as strong as I would like. His nurse said tonight that this afternoon he told her, he didn't think he had too much longer... maybe just this year and that would be it. She is a graceful girl of east indian descent, just a great smile and kind heart.

We talked for a while until he got tired and nodded off. The dog and I sat with him while he slept. It was nice just to lisen to his breathing.

~~~~~~~~~~~`

Talked to my husband upon my return, lots of business items that need attending to, I have a busy schedule the next few days.

He has signed a lease on a small sub penthouse apartment a 12 minute jog from our home - water view - apparently an ideal bachelor pad layout. Not as far as I would have liked but at least not right next door either. It seems kind of surreal to talk about which pieces of furniture and which pictures he will be taking.

He doesn't seem as giddy these days. I can tell he missed me. He has always hated having me far away. Yet, he is still light years away from being the man I know.


Ultimately life is so short. I am trying to let go and just see what comes... focusing very hard on staying positive. Life is all about choices. In away this frees me up to do things too.

My brother and I have decided that when my Dad passes, we will scatter some of his ashes on the beach he landed on in Normandy where so many of his friends died. He would like that. It will be a bittersweet trip...

Yet having had a glimpse of Paris through a plane window, I know there will be happy moments too... whoa - shoe shopping in Paris!

One thing about dealing with the prospect of death, is that it throws into high relief how we postpone living. My Dad always wanted to go back to Normandy. He never did. He got busy.

Hi Soooohurt,

It sounds like you up to your chin in affair fog. Sorry, no dice on whether or not they can still work together. They cannot. Particularly if she is still keen.

I have been in your shoes. Frankly, if I had packed house and moved us to a different town two years ago. I don't think I would be where I am now. Somewhere on this site, Dr. Harley says it is impossible for an affair to end if the OW is waiting in the wings. Very true...

You need to have him change jobs, if he cannot arrange for her transfer. Dukhunter suggestion of exposing the affair at work is a good one. His comments are right on the money. Although, if this woman has had previous affairs with other collegues - it may indicate this company does not have in place appropriate policies for dealing with this kind of behaviour. Unions can be very protective of bad behaviour.

The only other advise I can suggest is not to take it personally although I know that is hard to do. Right now, it isn't really about your shortcomings, or the weaknesses in your marriage. It is about someone who is trying desparately to shift responsibility - to project blame.

Best if you don't say a whole lot .. until there is hope of having a real conversation with someone who is rational. Nothing you can say is going to penetrate his self absorption - right now anyways.

You can't deal with this kind of pressure without finding some mechanisms for relieving the stress. Go do something nice for yourself...find a distraction... something happy to think about.

Ultimately, whether or not your marriage survives is much more in your hands than his. To save it you need to pay close attention to the information available here ... and keep your wits about you. Money spent on anything that helps you do that - what ever it is for you - is actually a great investment in your family's future happiness.

Cheers,

PB

Thanks,

I don't know what to do anymore. He knows I am on this site for MB and he's checking everything I say and do. Said that I'm listening to other people giving me advice - I'll be alone, without him, with the computer if I keep listening to everyone. Says the people on here are slandering him. He can read anything on this site, because anything I say is true - but he blows up when he reads the stuff I say.

Last night we had a big fight because he said I didn't believe him (that he was TRYING to do something about transfering the secretary). Threatened to leave - even started packing suitcases. I said if he leaves it will be his decision, not mine. He insisted is my my fault because I didn't believe him. He lied so many times - I just can't. I told him to give me some kind of proof, that something is going to be done about the secretary. I told him if someone in his office (some official) said something was in effect for transfer, I would appoligize to him.

We kind of made up. But, I don't know how much of this I can take. I love him, but I can't stop him, he's so hurtfull. I never did anything to him - why is he hurting me so much, saying bad things about me? All I ever did was love him and be faithfull. Why, Why, Why????

I don't know if I can write to this site anymore because he checks all my e-mails, etc. - it just causes another fight.

Hi All,

Poodling at the computer before getting down to work here and I found a great link which has many wonderful pictures of one of the towns we stayed at - Cesky Krumlov. It is a virtual tour. I also am posting one on Prague.

Thought some of you may enjoy it...


http://www.virtourist.com/europe/krumlov/index.html

http://www.virtourist.com/europe/prague/index.html

Soooohurt,

I apologize if anything I have written has insulted your husband or in any way hurt his feelings.

I am quite sure if you two have been happily married for 20 years and you still love the man deeply enough to put up with what is just a hurtful nightmare - that he must have wonderful qualities.

Affairs don't happen to just bad people. They happen to everyone. There is something in the three person dynamic that alters how people behave dramatically - to the point they are unrecognizable - pod people.

Eventually, the fog clears, I believe that is when most WS have a very hard time dealing with their actions. Everyone gets hurt in a triangle. The timing is just different for each of the parties.

If your husband were dealing with a business problem, say his decisions had undermined a business partnership. Would he respond by continuing in the problematic behaviour, refusing outside help, lying about the situation, projecting blame. If he did, he wouldn't be a director for long.

Maybe, as a business leader, it is time for a little plus and minus column analysis. What does he lose and what does he gain? It sure looks lopsided to me.. eventually it will look lopsided to him.

If he is refusing face to face counseling and doesn't want you to have any manner of support through this - well it is nonsense isn't it.

There are other sites that are good for this. If he doesn't like this one - how about using the divorcebusting site. It is quite useful too.

This isn't just a 'they are a bad person' kind of scenario. They reference the WS script because everyone even the best of the best on the planet when in his shoes go through the same thing. Some hard wired trigger in their brain has got them in a mess and their poor beleagured grey matter just can't cope with it until the flooding of emotions subsides.. so they talk nonsense.

I am sorry for you both and in particular your children they will bear the pain of this more keenly than either of you may realize because they are looking on with fresh innocent eyes. They are helpless - they don't have the ability to change the situation for the better. Whereas you both do.

PB

PS. I know Soooohurt that his actions have really hurt you but to save your marriage, you cannot allow yourself to hurt him back. So you have to avoid the negative. This is not the same as enabling. Just give it time... and don't fight... it doesn't help right now... reflection does. Sometimes you just need to stay clear of each other until some semblence of true communication can be had.

I wish you both luck...patience...humor...you will need all three.

Good morning all...
Good morning SH, soooo sorry you are here. PB and Duk are very wise. So keep venting here.

I believe your H is acting this way because he can not, at this time, handle the pain of causing you your pain. Possibly to him, this OW was only an escape of some sort. However, if he has any conscience, and sees her at work everyday, then he is unable to handle her pain (although between you and me...she earned it herself by dealing with a married man) as well. And I agree with PB, they can no longer work together. Your H needs to respect your right to BREATHE!

Continue as best you can to be loving, because you love him and have made the choice to do so. If he threatens to leave (which I feel is a call for help from a man who knows not how to ask for help) don't guard the door. After so many threats you may ask him to leave. He won't be able to call the shots then.

I feel you need to make some boundaries. If he continues to do things that do not prove he is trying to make your marriage work, then you may need to move on to a loving plan B.

As far as MC in your past, my H and I went down the same path. She was a good MC, however never, I felt, got to the true issue, that it was wrong to have sex with another woman while you were married.

How long was your WS's A? How did you find out about it? Perhaps I have missed your posts.

PB-Glad you are home safe and sound. And glad to read you have "puppy" again. 12 min jog from your home? Yes, that is better than next door. Has you H told you he needed to take anything from your home? Perhaps that is why he asked you to help decorate?

Try to all find peace in your day. This too shall pass, somehow.
holiday

Good afternoon Holiday,

I know my husband is probably going to read all this stuff and blow up when he comes home tonight - but all of what I say is true.

I found out about this in June 2005. The usual stuff, staying late at work all of a sudden, picking fights with me for nothing, constantly talking about the secretary,hiding his wallet, looking up divorce sites on the computer. I guess I ignored it for a while, even though deep down inside I knew.

It was my daughter (she's 18 now) that first bought it to my attention - is dad having an affair? I said "Oh dad whould never do that to me - it's just the way he is". More fighting, crying, etc., etc. My daughter again, a couple of months later said are you sure dad is not having an affair. My response again, no not dad - he loves me - would never do that - he's just like.

Well this jolted me and I started snooping around. Well, I found a receipt for a Valentine's gift, cash taken out of his business account for no reason, more late nights (which I logged), checking wallet, etc..

I confronted him with the evidence. He denied, denied, denied. Said I was crazy. I told him either tell me the truth or we were thru. The next day he confessed and told me some of the truth. Husband said affair was a couple of months, but he loves me and it is over - he told the OW so. I confirmed this with her. He said he didn't know why he did it.

The no contact just didn't work for me. I begged him to do something, transfer her, have him get another job. He refused anything for about 3 months. Then about a month ago he started the procedures to have her transfered. But when he told me this, I didn't believe him. I think he should have started the process as soon as he confessed - not a couple of months later. Lots of wasted time, hurt, crying, fighting for nothing.

This other woman can never "fit into my shoes" - I know that, in anything. That's what makes it so hard to believe it happened. I could never inflict this kind of pain on him, especially with all the other things that are going on with my dad (Parkinson's) and other issues in the family.

I did get a confirmation from the Union Manager that my husband did get the "ball" rolling on her getting transfered. I wanted to hear this so much. Now, I have to wait. I'm trying so hard, I want to believe all he says.

I JUST WANT OUR MARRIAGE TO WORK AND BE HAPPY AGAIN!


I

Sooohurt,

I'm glad to hear that things are indeed moving forward on NC. Don't stop here by any means. Your relationship has issues that need to be dealt with irregardless of the OW. I suggested the Emotional Needs Questionairre earlier. Print it out from this site and sit down with your H and work on changing the environment at home that allowed this to happen. Right now you both are going thru a period of change and withdrawal and without the help of a MC you need to make the adjustments and changes on your own as a couple. Having the OW out of the office will help but it's not the solution to the problems.

Continue to find ways to fill the love bank with your husband. Identifying what was and still is missing in your relationship is just the beginning. The hard part will be controlling the resentment, judgements and anger that will drain what you are trying to build back up. You said something very prophetic in your last post. " I just want our marriage to work". Well start working on it, because it is work. Use this as a painful and eye opening wake up call to that fact and get after it. Again you may be the only one working for a while because of withdrawal for your H. Take Paradise's advice and be patient and persistent.

Holiday said I was wise in her post and that may be the first time anyone has ever said that about me ever. I don't think I am but I have been taught a very emotional and painful lesson this year and I have learned from it. We all have learned from our experiences and you don't have to go thru it twice to learn this lesson!

Take this start as a good sign and go out and treat yourself and your children to something special. My daughter also pointed the way to discovery for me and she is 23 and still struggling to adjust to our split family. If progress is slow with your H spend the energy created by the nerves and anxiety on your children. They need to see that their parents will be there for them always.

dukhuntr

Paradise,

Thank you for the link. I am very jealous now thanks! Cesky looks like a beautiful retreat from the reality of all of our difficulties. It must have been made ever better by having your multi-lingual brother there to get around and communicate. The river thru town makes it perfect in my view. Not over developed or as trashed as ours here in the states. Did the people match up with the sights and views? I have bunches of questions about the food, and the experience in general.

How about a chapter in your journal about the first thing that comes to mind in your memory of Cesky? I am especially curious about the smells that come to mind. The scents that are in the air are the strongest memories for me of places I have visited. Each is unique in its own way. San Francisco has it's own ocean scent and so does Anchorage. What is the first scent you remember from Cesky? My imagination is telling me a mixture of bakery and deli smells. Could be a manure farm nearby who knows huh!

Glad to hear all went well and that the puppy survived your being gone. Sounds like good news about the move for WH too. Couldn't you stuff his mailbox with fliers for a development 30 minutes away too? Keep up the happy thoughts and think back when the demons creep in.

dukhuntr

Holiday,

Wise is not what I am used to people referring to me as. Other unprintable names yes, wise-no. I learn from people like you and Paradise. All I am doing is trying to learn from what has happened to me and become a better person because of it. I my mind the only other option is to become bitter, jaded and resentful for the rest of my life. Not what I would consider as a better option. If I can let people know what mistakes I felt I made in my marriage maybe it will make me look even deeper within myself to see how I contributed to my own problems and help heal some of my own wounds.

Every time I read either your posts or paradise's I can usually take something away from them to think about. It really does help to move your focus off of dwelling on whatever has stuck in your mind that day. Thank you for all of your thoughts, I do look forward to reading each of them.

dukhuntr

Duk, how about changing your name to Wisolowl? (or Wisyngowl...don't know your age <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.)

You are wise. You've come to this site even after all that was said and done as well as a divorce and are offering such great input. And you are wise because you have now taken the time to work on yourself and figure you out, for if and when it should happen, start a new relationship with someone. I believe one can not begin a good relationship nor a new relationship until they have corrected or got in touch with their own issues. You are doing that right now. Very proud of you!

I have been through this lesson twice, do you really consider me wise? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope sooohurt's H will begin to read our posts with an open mind. This will only help her to move forward. Supporting her in her time of need. After my H confessed to all that was done last year, he wrote me a special note telling me he was sorry for what he had done to ME and that it was MY time now. That helped a great deal.

I believe sooohurt's H when he says "he doesn't know why this happened". I think WS's have "temporary insanity" issues. Hopefully with or without a new MC he can find his way so this won't happen again.

Sooohurt, check out the book Point Man by Steve Farrar. This book helped my H big time.

holiday

Holiday,

How about "Wisefowl" as in some type of intelligent waterfowl. They do have a brain the size of mine- about the size of a peanut! And yes I consider you wise! You have negotiated your way through this twice. Twice as wise and the patience and faith of a saint. I could not be patient enough to make it through the first time.

Funny thing about sooohurts and my former spouse, mine said the exact same thing last week in my birthday e-mail(I turned 46 last week). "I don't know why this happened" must be their way of saying "I didn't know how to say no". Insanity? Maybe, more like "I'm not real happy at home right now and this might be a way to feel better about myself"? Who knows without being involved in every conversation and every meeting they have had. All I know is my EX went on to say I would have done the same thing if I were in her shoes! Nice birthday wish huh! I think that one sentence in an e-mail finally convinced me I was not dealing with someone rational and cognizant.

You should feel blessed to have a husband that recognized what he had done and expressed it to you. I have pretty much given up any hope that I will ever hear anything like that from my WW. I am sure I don't want to hear it yet. Not emotionally ready to deal with that.

New relationships? I am happy being alone right now. Paradise is starting to influence me big time! I moved from my parents home to a home with my EX at 20yrs old. Never been alone before and I am really starting to enjoy it! I can go hunting without worrying about someone else's schedule or timetable. I can stop everything at the drop of a hat and take offers I used to turn down to hunt, golf or fish. I had a friend send me this quote the other day and I think it fits me to a tee.

"When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one that has opened for us"- Helen Keller

Journal,

O.K Duk, I will give it a shot.

When you get off the train and walk down towards the village, you overlook the valley. It looks like a village straight from a Grimm Brothers fairy tale. The village first came into existence in the 1300s and many of the original medieval structures still stand. It is a confusing maze of narrow cobble stone streets and wonderful architecture.

You can feel the lives lived over centuries here. The castle itself is just what a castle should be - an intriguing collaboration of many generations of three different families. Its court yards smell of wet old stone with a slight tinge of damp mold.

In summer the town is thronged with tourists, it was less busy while we were there. My brother nor I speak Czech. Although, his german is very good and it allowed us to bridge the occasional barrier.

The villagers themselves are very used to dealing with foreigners.. they live with throngs of tourists.. so at times I am sure they wish everybody would just stay home for a weekend.

The place is full of history, unscarred by any major disasters such as fire, earthquake or flood.

We were there for three days ... I could easily have spent longer.

The morning I awoke before dawn and watched the sun rise over the valley was enchanting. I sat thinking about how many sunrises had been witnessed over seven centuries from that spot. What they would have been thinking, hoping for...When you are there you can pratically see a rich fabric of shadowy human memories flowing all around you....

Paradise,

Old stone and mold, not as appealing as bakery and deli but just as descriptive. Being in a town that old would make you nostalgic about all the generations of people who have built the town and kept it alive all these years. My mother went to her family's home in Germany last year and told wonderful stories about how our family has lived there for centuries. She's into geneology in a big way and has her family traced back into the 17th century. All farming families and their homes are two stories. Mangers and stalls downstairs for the animals and the people live upstairs. Now the farm equipment is downstairs so it smells a little better. Cleaning the stalls must have been an important task in those days!

Mom brings our family history to us in more detail than I sometimes want to know. Many of the family pictures she brought back with her to put in her books had the wrong uniforms on the men during WW-II. I got smart and asked some stupid questions about which camp our family ran and got some really dirty looks. Mom was not amused! I mentioned to her my desire to visit Scotland and Ireland and now it looks like I will have company if I go. Her mothers family name is McSherry and she has yet to get very far on that side of her family. SO instead of golf and scotch we now will add churches and cemeterys. Wooooee! Maybe I can get drunk at the distilleries before we go to the graveyards!

I hope you are adding all of this stuff to one file to be compiled later into your book. This is by all means of the quality and interest to make it worthwhile. Have a great day tomorrow!

Hi Dukhuntr,

I think it is a great idea. Your mom will end up making the trip just that much better - notwithstanding all the graveyards.

Dad was very interested in genealogy too. He traced our family history back hundreds of years. We were Quakers who arrived in North America on one of the boats after the Mayflower - the Fortune. Our direct ancestor was a carpenter. The family farmed for centuries.

I have a lovely letter written by his grandson who was 16 during the American Revolution... it describes the reaction of people the day the first British blood was spilled. He made it sound much like the day Kennedy died. Everyone was in shock.. and horror. He wrote the letter when he was 93, it finishes with instructions for a distribution of tracts against slavery. He was active in the underground railroad. Letters from that era are so articulate... people spent hours every day writing to stay in touch...We were United Empire Loyalists who moved after the revolution to settle in Canada.

Dad would occasionally take me to a Quaker Meeting house near us. Their services are very different. No one speaks until they feel that they have something worthwhile to share- so there are long silences where you just lisen to the fire crackle...

Everyone's family is rich with history if you have the skill set to dig. Our oddest family lore is that a relative of my Dad and a relative of my Mom sat in one of the lifeboats together - when the Titanic sunk. One was a child care pioneer...the other a mistress.

War is horrifying for everyone there... really people should decide not to attend... My dad arrived on the scene after a fairly famous battle where an SS troop had died to the man. He still remembers it with tears. Their mail had just arrived and their letters from their families ... photos of dads, sisters, brothers, girlfriends, mothers drifted like snow over the bodies ... all blond boys ... very few out of their early teens...

Finding your roots in Scotland with an able detective at your side... sounds like fun to me.

Cheers,

Paradise

Journal

I sat with Dad last night ... he is sleeping alot these days and it is a hard to get him to take in food and liquids... While he slept.. I thought of how both our lives have been shaped by beaches at pivotal points ...his a landing in Normandy where he saw many childhood friends die..and relived in his dreams many times over. Mine a lovely sanctuary full of fun, happy dogs, all manner of sports...and very good company.

While I was away I read up on the Buddist thinking about dying. They believe it is much like changing your clothes.. you go onto a new life ... There are bardos or stages of dying as your spirit leaves your body. While I sit by my Dad I often pray... an odd mixture of just plain english, badly mangled Sanskrit, prayers of a variety of faiths. No harm in redundancy...

He always says I love you before he nods off...to me and the dog. He nods off and wakes up many times during our visits. There is a constant stream of I love yous.

The dog lies on his bed, scattering muddy footprints on the clean white linen.. curled up against his side.

My chair is against a window. It is a nice room. Lots of pictures.. plants.. with only a lamp on ... it is a peaceful place to sit and think at night. I believe people should not die alone if it can be helped... always better to have company. Dying is very much a part of life and life in all its aspects happy and sad - is just more fun with other people around.

When I got home last night I rented a great movie. Born into Brothels.. a story about a photographer who teaches a group of children in Calcutta how to take pictures.. a movie well worth seeing... The kids are fabulous fun... full of beans and mischief.

Hi Everyone,

Last night wasn't that bad. I felt so much better hearing that something is being done to transfer the OW. Still now sure if it's actually going to be done though. My logic is that if she was good enough to work for him for over a year why would they want to transfer her? All of a sudden she needs to be transfered????

I have another question. How do I handle when my husband's dad bashes me - even though I didn't do anything wrong to him or my husband? He's got very macho ideas. Lot of this rubbed off on my husband over the years. This hurts. Should I talk to the parents or just let it go. Holidays are coming up and they will be probably at our home.

Need some advice.

Sooohurt,

Just try to be yourself with the inlaws. You can hold your head high and know you have done nothing wrong. Inlaws seem to always rally around the family no matter what the circumstance. If you think about it, it is only natural and expected. As for the bashing I would try and get FIL off by himself and let him know you don't appreciate the bashing and to please stop, especially if its in your home.

As for the workplace, who cares what they think as long as it gets done. I would bet more people are aware of the relationship than you will ever know and word will get around. I guarantee H's superiors know by now after your calls to the HR person that something fishy is up.

Have you started woking with H on making things better between the two of you? Change your focus now that things are moving and work on yourself and your relationship with your H. The OW remember is only a symptom of a problem between you and your H.

dukhuntr,

Tough to talk to FIL - very macho! He only says stuff when I'm not around. He would "fold up like a cheap tent" if I talked to him - "yes me to death". Like I said a lot of my husband's ideals and ideas came from his dad. Very hard to get this out of his system.

So far as my husband in the workplace. I told him that everyone probably knows. He insists that they do not - maybe suspect but never told him so. Of course they never said anything to him - he's the boss! I guess if he keeps saying that they don't know it makes him feel better.

The HR will not admit to anything - they have to be confidential. But I know everyone knows - he only has about 5-6 people in his department - close quarters -how could they not know?

I'm trying to work at it. Last night wasn't too bad. I just have to wait and see if she gets transfered. Hoping very much. If the OW doesn't then that will be another issue.

Talked to my 18 yr. old daughter this morning before she went off to college. She's such a good kid. Very smart - got a full scholarship and she helps me a lot, when I need her emotionally.

I'm going to visit my dad now - I think I mentioned he's got Parkinson's. He lost his remote control and can't change the channels on TV. Very serious stuff. I found an old one in the house - hope it works for him.

Thanks again everyone. It feels good to talk to people who understand.

Hi Soooohurt,

Great news about the transfer. I'm really happy for you both. It will feel so much better when this is behind you.

Cheers,

Paradise

Hi everyone,

I should be sleeping but tonight I think I hit an all time low in my marriage. Just when I thought things were going better, something changed in my husband tonight.

At dinner he kept telling me and the kids he refused to quit his job, never, no one was going to tell him what to do. No woman was going to tell him what to do. He's the boss. I was not going to order him around.

After dinner we went for a walk - we usually do. He was so different, very non caring attitude, distant. After talking, I think I found out that the OW will not be transfered - he didn't admit it, but I could tell by his words. Kind of indicated his company didn't want a scandal. He kept telling me over and over that he refused to quit his job. I told him I couldn't live with the fact of him staying with the OW. That he was being disrespectful, etc. He can start looking actively for a new job once or if he found out the OW is not transfered. He just sounded so uncaring - his words. Again, I was crushed.

When we came back from the walk I went upstairs to bed. Came back downstairs to take medicine(zantac for panic attacks because I was so upset). I asked him what was more important to him - his job or his marriage. He couldn't even answer me - couldn't say anything. This hit me like a ton of bricks. To me my marriage is the most important thing.

I told him maybe he should be away from me for a while - to think. He said I was throwing him out, he didn't want to leave. I said I wasn't thinking of a separation or divorce, but I couldn't do this up and down anymore. I'm so tired of getting my hopes up that things are working fine and then taking two steps backward. I asked that he give some time so I can find a job, so I can handle the bills. Also, that if he goes not to let us loose the house and help with the bills. I just can't do this anymore. He said I should be satisfied that he's working, coming, home, having a house and that he broke the relationship off with the OW. Yet he's there with her everyday.

Incidentally, he is on this site giving advise to people. Can you beat that? His site is "no more drama". He's giving advice when his marriage in falling apart.

I don't know what to do. I'm sitting here in tears, in the middle of the night when all I want is my husband to love me and all he can do is be macho.

Please need help soon.

I think he was saying these things because of what his father had told him a day or so ago. His father said several hurtfull things to him about me - I think he is taking his advice. The advice was that the man should be the boss and his decision is final, not mine and I shouldn't "lead my husband around with a ring in his nose".

Hi Soooohurt,

Your last post is a heartbreaker. The fact remains that your marriage doesn't stand a chance if your husband is in all day contact with a woman he has had a recent sexual and emotional affair with. A woman who is actively pursuing him.

It is simply not pragmatic to assume that everyone he works with already doesn't know about this. Of course they do - small group - absolutely it has been a topic of general discussion.

His transfering her will certainly confirm it. Perhaps he thinks it is better to face down the gossip by ignoring the situation.

No way around it, he is in a mess. Leaving the job might be a happy solution. She is a unionized employee. He is management. If she complains there will be a hearing of some nature. She has enormous leverage to cause him damage, should she choose to.

Does you FIL know about the affair? Does he know why you want either the woman transferred or your husband to change jobs?

Giving up an affair is really difficult. She is a fantasy world which makes him feel great. You are making him feel like a schmuck. It is really hard for truth to compete with fantasy when truth makes you feel awful. He may be in withdrawal. There are some great threads by WS who have dealt with the pain of withdrawal first hand.

I agree with his by line... no more drama... however...in this situation who is bringing drama to the table? Infidelity, nowadays... it is negligent to the point of manslaughter.. he is bringing the sexual health of all the OW's former lovers to your bed...putting you at risk of real harm... is that not dramatic.

It shows how powerful the whole affair magic is. This was not a good career move. In most companies bad judgement of this nature will put his advancement at risk. Buying into a situation, where you put your career, family, marriage, future financial stability and the health of your spouse in danger of ruin - says it all doesn't it. Nothing rational was going on in his head. It makes it easier in a way. It allows you to see that he really hasn't been himself.

I haven't looked at his posts but if he does not agree with the principles on this site why is he posting here? I'm confused. If he does agree with the program.. then it is a no brainer.. that he should end contact with the OW. On the plus side if he is posting. It means he is thinking and reading about other people's experiences with a very challenging dynamic. I think it is a positive.

Ultimately you have to decide for yourself what is best for you and your family. It would be even better if you could talk it through and decide together.

People get over this. There are success stories.

My prayers are with you both..

Cheers

PB

Thanks everyone on this site,

A new thread has been opened up on Recovery for me. My husand is "Stop the Drama" and of course I am "Soooohurt". You can see what my husband's point of veiw is and how unreasonable he is. Please give us your thoughts. I want someone to make him see my point of view. Knock some sense into him.

Thanks for all your help. It feels good to talk to people.

sooohurt,

I too and saddened by your news. Hang in there and be strong. If for no other reasaon your kids need you right now, they too are scared and nervous about what their life will become. I have gone out and read the H's posts and he sounds convinced that he can be in close contact with the OW and still remain in your marriage. Fog talk, maybe. I don't know him well enought to answer that. I do know two people I work with that had an A here and both are still here working in close proximity daily and are not involved anymore in any way. The problem is both are remarried to different spouses than they had duing their A.

I think in the MB materials I have read that one of the things a BS needs from a WS in a recovery is NC with the OW to give the BS a feeling of safety. A BS just can't feel safe in their M knowing that their spouse still sees the OW daily and anytime an arguement or problem occurs at home you fear the WH will turn immediately to the OW again. Proximity does breed these fears and emotions. Your H has put himself in a place where he has put all that he has worked for and achieved in jepardy. It is hard for him to give this up when he believes he is finished with the OW. He just does not realize yet how hard this is for you to live with or accept. Again I think you need to remain strong and express your fears and feelings to him in a non-threatening and non-demanding manner.

Remember he still may be in withdrawal and the thought of losing his family and his career at the same time would be too much to handle all at once. Right now all he has for sure is the career and he knows it. Time and compassion from both of you will be essential in resolving this and placing all your emphasis on NC right now may be counter-productive. Instead try to find the missing EN's and see if the two of you can fill those gaps for each other again. If you can again meet all of hs needs he may become strong enough in your M to make NC a priority himself. You are the key to this, in that you have to be the one that is committed and strong enough to live with the situation while working to improve the other areas first.

Hopefully your H will see that you are trying and you still have the same love for him as before the A. Your M will never be the same and that is good. Something needs to be changed to make it stronger than before and to become affair-proof. We will be here to listen and give our opinions and for you to vent on when needed. You can do this if its really what you want. You have to make that call not us. I for one would love to have this same chance again. My EXWW still works with the OM and is still with him. In my case she gave no statements or gave no signals that the A was over as your H has done. Take this as the opening you need and expand it as fast as you can.

paradise_blue..

I only recently discovered this board... and my situation is very different than what I have read of your's.

I am sorry that we are both here.

Your posts are some of the most eloquently written, heartfelt sentiments that I have ever read - in book or out.

I hope that someone as yourself would be friends with someone like me if our paths ever crossed.

God Bless you,

Eibrab

Peradise,

We have another fan in the paradise book club! Keep up the writing, you are building a fan base for your soon to be written best seller. Maybe a way to pay for some more sight-seeing huh?

Have a great weekend- off to chase those pesky ducks again with the now healed up Lab.

Hi Eibrab,

It is very nice to meet you. Thank you for your compliments. I think our paths just crossed.

I don't know your story. Would you like to share it?

I'm not sure what perspective I can offer but I am happy to lisen or read as is the case.

Long busy day, now its off to see Dad.

Cheers,

PB

Journal,

Too tired last night to write...

My scrabble buddy and I had dinner together last night, she came with me to visit Dad. She visited him regularly while I was away.

We drank Newcastle Brown Ale... Dad had one small juice glass full. It took a long time for him to get it down but he seemed to enjoy it. Tomorrow I will be bringing stout.. lots of calories in stout.

My friend sang gospels songs. I have known her 16 years and never heard her sing. She has a lovely voice. Apparently while I was away she would sit and sing to him. Drinking beer and singing gospel songs an odd mixture but it felt right.

Dad is gradually getting weaker... not standing these days at all. His nurse said .. they always know first when they are going to go. Dad kept telling me last night how he was going to miss me... likewise.

Mom is mad at him. She thinks he is giving up before he needs to. My parents are an interesting combo. They understand each other. I always love watching them figure things out together.. two silver heads close together... glasses slipping down noses...then the round of quick smiles .."Yes that is it .. we got it right". They really did get it right.

Good morning! Wow...so sorry sooohurt to hear your H is being as suborn as a bull, perhaps this is his coping skill for dealing with everything going on. He did it, it's over, yada yada, now you get over it...sorry, not so easy.
About your FIL, perhaps he's not aware that when you are a "mischief bull", you need to be led around by the ring in your nose! and possibly tied to the fence for awhile.

I spoke to my dear and special friend here on MB. We have been going through all this together for the past 11 months. She has told me that you are most welcome to ask her help as her H was the boss of the OW and only until now or as of Nov 4th (almost a year later) he has left his job for new one. Her user name is Godhelpme2. She has a kind spirit. I began posting here with MB under the title Newbies, now we continue under Old Newbie's Where are you in Just Found Out.

PB, I hope your Dad is comfortable. He sounds like an amazing man. I keep you and him in my prayers daily.

DH-hope you have great duck weather!

Still working hard on my holiday stock. Hubby still pounding away at the books. Say a little prayer for his big test on Monday. We are spending this weekend in Phx, AZ with his sister.

And I hope you all have a better weekend.

Peace,

holiday

Hi Holiday,

Thanks again. I will visualize only A's for your Hubby. Have a great visit in Phoenix - I love it there.

Cheers,

PB

Journal,

Another busy day... beach.. work...a business lunch..work now home. Staying in tonight to do a general clean and dust up. The WS is coming by tomorrow to pick up some of his things and a few pieces of furniture. He moves into his new place this weekend. It is uniquely female logic to want to have your house clean for someone to come and take your things away. I will pop up to see Dad in the morning and hopefully miss the denuding of my home.

At first the WS wanted to do his new place ultra modern - italian leather...minimalist. Now he seems to want to duplicate what we already have. He wants me to write down all the paint shades etc.. Very confused person I am dealing with.

I had an interesting conversation today with an old colleague. On how some people get into a mind set where being nasty makes sense to them. If your logic is pure - being nasty never makes sense. There is no advantage to be gained and it diminishes you. Although having the OW jog by me tonight (braless and in tight spandex) with a big smile - I can see it might at times have a small measure of appeal...

I still find it hard to believe he is doing this ... we had just way too much fun ...

`````````````````````````````````````````

Speaking of fun.. my purpose here is to do a Halloween post. I have turned off all the lights, lit a candle, poured a Pilsner Urquell (great Czech beer) and I have spooky organ music booming out of the cd player (baroque organ recital in St. Vitus church in Cesky Krumlov) - sounds a bit like a Munsters theme song.

This is all in honour of a picture... what I think might actually be a ghost picture. Last week when I waited for the dawn at the castle in Cezky Krumlov... I was by myself for probably 30 to 40 minutes before two other keen souls ventured up to sit near me and await first light.

Overlooking a 500 foot drop, I sat in still quiet darkness on an old stone bridge..that was probably built some 700 years ago. (No ipod) I found it peaceful but there is a kind of a density of lives lived in that spot.

I thought about how many countless others over the centuries have done exactly the same thing albeit not with a digital camera in tow.

I took probably 9 or 10 pictures, it was crisp and cold, our breath hung in the air. The valley landscapes all came out crystal clear. The sky gradually turn from indigo to pink. Just after sunrise as I was walking back down towards the village I shot an old woman raking leaves.

When I downloaded my pictures.. I stared for a long time wondering...what @$$@%%.. You can see her blurred through what looks very much like a spectre.. white blobby thing. The rest of the picture is in perfect focus .. really odd. There was no mist. No fog. There was nothing to offer a reflection.. No imperfections in the film because it was digital... Just this rather cool casper character... The tour guide at the castle mentioned that there are several ghosts who haunt the place .

One was the lady in white who was cursed to roam by her husband when she refused to forgive him on his deathbed for maltreating her very badly throughout their marriage. He was a lout. That was five hundred years ago.. she must be really mad at him by now ...

My daugther is fascinated by pictures with "orbs" she calls them. She looks them up on the internet all the time. I took some pictures recently in our living room and there were orbs in a couple of spots. I looked at the lense it it was dirty! I told her, there's your ghost, a smudge on the camera lense. We laughed pretty hard about it.


I'm sorry you have to live in such close proximity to your H's OW. She has some nerve jogging by you like that, I bet the urge to trip her was hard to fight! (At least it would have been for me.) I think there are better things in store for you. You've got your head on straight while your H is off chasing some fantasy life. It may take time, but you will come out ahead. I'm confident of it.

Hi Familyomesfirst,

I thought I would share a link with you and that you and your daughter might enjoy. I emailed off my picture to this group after alittle research.

On their site they have a number of real or at least unexplained phenomena shots and ones where there appears to be an explanation...

If you believe Brian Greene - The Elegant Universe - that there are 7 dimensions that our perceptual equipment - eyes ears, nose, taste - cannot perceive but that we can prove mathematically - hey who knows?

Cheers,

PB

http://www.ghostresearch.org/ghostpics/

Holiday,

Thank you for your good thoughts. We're trying and I think my husband is too in his own way.

If you'd like you can keep posting on us under (sooooohurt and stop the drama) in the recovery section.

I will contact god help me, when I get a chance.

Journal,

I went to a party last night. An orange and black charity do that I decided to go to at the last minute.

Very spiffy scads of black and orange decorations, fancy martini bar, people decked out like Halloween kiss candies, very good band. I sat with two girlfriends... they drank red wine. I nursed a corona. I like beer, in my set I am the only woman who drinks beer. I can remember the day I learned to like it ..standing on the dock at the cottage, a very hot summer afternoon, I had just got up on a slalom ski ...first try... it was cold and tasted wonderful.

It was the first time I had gone to a large do solo so to speak. It felt weird. We only stayed a couple of hours. She is being tested for early onset Alzheimers..She tires easily these days. There is fear in her eyes and dread in mine. It is a horrific disease.

On the way home I stopped by to visit Dad. He was sleeping, I sat by his bed remembering. I can remember the exact moment I got turned on to shoes. I think I was nine, my Mom asked my Dad to take me shoe shopping. I picked out $50 italian brown alligator pumps- low square heel - adorable buckles.. I wore them home with surprising foresight for one so young. My Mom flipped, you could feed our family of five for a month on $50. However, because I had worn them they couldn't be returned. I loved those shoes.. I wore then till they shredded.

I awoke to my husband's voice this morning. He had called last night as I was heading out? He wanted to know how the party was? We had a normal conversation.

I saw him very briefly this week. He looked at me precisely the same way he would look at the OW when we would run into her - with heartfelt grief. It must be hard wanting more than you can have in life.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The beach was glorious today. Jean jacket warm, golden sunshine and slowly fading oranges and reds on the trees. Plus it was windy so big waves were being ridden by wetsuit glad windsurfers and kite surfers. ..just a beautiful day.

We did our normal walk. There are play activities at certain points in the walk. It is like a doggy fun circuit a mixture of ball tossing, swimming, barking at waves, running after other dogs, sniffing, digging, chasing sticks, and jumping up on Mom leaving large pawprints to beg for biscuits.

It was the chip wagon guy's last day to be open. He works seven days a week for 7 months then flys to his home town..200 miles south of Athens to spend the winter. There is a large picture of it in his window... azure blue water and crisp white stucco buildings. I wished him a happy holiday. His departure always saddens me - it heralds the end of warm weather.

Journal,

Rainy here today. I'm at loose ends this moring. I have been reading many of the threads in this forum. They make me sad..some move me to tears.. so much needless unhappiness.

I find at times, I'm hesitant to post replies. My marriage seems to be dissolving before my eyes...it makes me feel unqualified to offer advise.

Although, after weeks of reflection, I believe I have come up with a third point.

Love makes sense. It makes more sense than anything else in this world because it supports a true reality. The more I observe the world and those in it, the more I believe the buddists when they say no one is separate from or superior to anyone else. All sentient beings are part of a whole.

Love is the feeling of being part of that whole. It is your connection to a fundamental truth. Everyone may be at different points in coming to an understanding of that but they are still part of us and we are still part of them.

It makes sense that we all have givers and takers, at a different level, when we give we give to ourselves and when we take we take from ourselves.

Keeping that thought foremost helps me alot. I find it much easier if I focus on that kind of perspective. It washes away the anger, resentment, hurt, loneliness, any sense of inadequacy. It brings a kind of calm peace.

Even at its most painful.. it is better to have cared for someone else. The connection allows you a glimpse of the big picture.

Paradise,

Yes, it does seem that reading too much on this site will bring you down and discourage you. I have felt that myself. I think that others like myself appreciate your posts more than you will ever know. You have a sense of self we all wish we had more of. So don't ever feel you are not helping. You have helped me become more self aware and stronger just by being yourself and expressing it so clearly through your posts.

Holiday is much the same, a normal and caring person that can communicate her feelings and insights without judging or sugar coating what she feels. A BS like myself needs people like the two of you to bounce their fears and problems off of. I need people like you two because I just can't see talking and writing about this stuff with my parents or friends that have not been thru this. And take some comfort and pride in the knowledge that I really do put value on what you and Holiday have to say. I hope you keep posting and don't ever get discouraged about your situation. No matter what happens in your M you will come out better than ever. For me you represent a role model all of us should aspire to become. Still committed to your M and not a doormat for the WS.

Have a great day!

dukhuntr

Hi Dukhuntr,

Thanks again for the moral support. You are right. Talking to people who have been through it or are going through it helps. If only that they understand the emotion involved.

I am cutting out early to-day to help a friend get ready for the deluge of little goblins. The dog is dressed in a top hat and tails. He won't look me in the eye. Grim forbearance is in his every motion.


Happy Halloween Everyone!

Cheers,

Paradise.

paradise_blue and dukhunter...

When I have found myself at my lowest..your posts bring me back.

It is very peaceful to read through your archives here.

Thank you for the self-less sharing. You both make a difference.

I did not dress my dogs today..being of a bulldog type, I figured they were costumes within themselves.

God Bless you both,

Eibrab

Eibrab,

Come on in and talk to us. Talk is therapy for us too. Give us some background on your situation and let us talk to you during NC. This is painful and hard enough with someone to vent to and lean on occasionally. Doing it alone is self abuse and torture.

Thanks for not embarassing your dog like paradise. Poor thing, I feel bad for the dog. It cant voice it's protests and standing there looking all mopy and forelorn only makes paradise revel in it's misery even more! I bet if the dog had hands the costume would be out on the beach with the other washed up floatsam. I can hardly wait to hear about it's santa suit at Christmas. My dog gets all bent out of shape when my daughter ties a kerchief on her neck. Looks too yuppy for a hunting dog and she scratches at it constantly. Yet put her neoprene hunting vest on and she's all jacked up and ready to go!

On a more serious note I will be here when you are ready and although I think you are too kind about my posts, I will listen and respond to you as best I can.

I will be watching for your posts.

dukhuntr

Hi Duckhuntr,

LOL, no santa suit but he does have reindeer antlers that strap under his chin. He was a very big hit with the kids. Down in Annapolis on July 4th weekend, I dressed him up in a American Flag peaked cap and kerchief. It was definitely over the top, but in our travels I counted over a hundred smiles. It can't be that silly if it makes so many people either laugh or smile.

Last Christmas I bought my sister-in-law's hefty chocolate lab a frou frou collar. Looks like a little tutu you wear around your neck. She's a lovely dog with soft brown feminine eyes and a hind end you could serve tea on - the frilly collar just adds to the blend.

There were wonderful costumes out last night. The best was a young teenage girl who came as a fully set table. She had a coffee table contraption with hole for her neck and a plastic flower arrangement on top of her head. China, glasses etc all glued to a halloween tablecloth. Kids have great imagination.

I have a long list today. So I best get back to work. I hope everyone is having a good day.

Cheers,

PB

I considered dressing up our weiner dog. While shopping the other day I saw a trench coat that would have fit him perfect, I was going to make him a flasher. I decided against it, he hates when I even put sweaters on him in the winter. He has like no fur on his belly, so he needs it.

Paradise,

Has the dog recovered from his emotional tramatizing last night? I felt for the dog. He had no choice in the matter and I'm sure if his voice could be heard it would have said "stop the insanity".

I spent the evening waiting for the munchkins to appear and they never did. I have been in my house for 22 years and all of the kids that grew up with mine are too old now and all of my neighbors are still the same. Great for me , but no new families to renew the trick or treat force. So I spent the night watching football and horror flicks. Funny thing though I couldn't tell you a thing about the game. I spent most of the night thinking back to the same night 24 years earlier when my ex was in labor with my daughter. We were still at home timing contractions and answering the door to the trick or treaters. I was in a near panic. Racing back and forth and fraught with worry. When we finally went to the hospital it was a huge relief to me. At least there was someone there that knew what they were doing. I spent the rest of the evening holding her hand thru the delivery and febily coaching her while watching a Frankenstein movie between contractions. I still remember trying to cheer her up by telling her I wasn't sure what was more frightening, Frankenstein or her during a contraction!

I hope my daughter has a wonderful day today it will be her first birthday with her new adjusted family situation. I made her favorite ravioli dinner Sunday night with my parents her boyfriend and my son. I have tried to keep up on the semblance of family for her and I think has worked to some extent but I know she is feeling the difference. I'm not sure what the EX has in mind I just hope she has the presence of mind to make an effort to recognize the occasion.

I went back last night and re-read all of your early posts again and I have a question for you. You were friends with the OW same as I was friends with the OM. Do you think as I do that this has made it more difficult to accept and deal with for us. Not only did our WS's abandon us, but so did someone that we had chosen to befriend? For me it makes me feel twice as foolish. I did not see the warning signs in my marriage and I was fooled into trusting someone else that did not value my friendship. Obviously we liked both or we would not have associated with either party. I am starting to think I could have handled this much better if I did not know the OM or would have never found out who it was. I know I wish I had never gone looking for them when I found them. The image I have of them when he opened the door to that room at Tahoe will haunt me forever.

I hope you are well and the dog recovers soon. Take him to the beach and give him a couple of extra treats today he deserves it.

Thank you Dukhunter. I hope I am helpful in some way.

Hope you all had a nice Halloween.

Still pretty stressed here with H's classes and exams right now.
We also purchased 800 sq ft of tile to be laid (by me with H help) by Thanksgiving...woo hoo!

How did the duk huntin go? We were feeding them in the lake by my SIL home this past weekend, and I could only think of DH! ha.

PB, has your H gone silly? Wanting your paint chips so he can "recreate" his home away from home? I would need to tell him, hit the hardware store buddy! (In a nice way of course.)
Perhaps you may suggest a female decorator....hmmm, perhaps in her 20's???? Only kidding. Just wish your OW would just disappear and give him a chance to truly reflect.

Weather is getting cooler here. Still out from the gym (tore the muscle under the rotator cuff of my left shoulder). I can only run and some very light weights for the past 3 weeks...makes me a bit depressed.

Have a wonderful Tuesday,
holiday

Hey Holiday!

Thanks for fattening them ducks up for me! Beautiful birds aren't they, tasty too if cooked right. I actually had bad weekend hunting. Seems like everything that could go wrong did, including my shotgun. I had to stand and watch as my hunting partner shot all the birds. For the first time ever I managed to wear out a part and break the thing to the point it would not shoot(my shotgun that is). It was still enjoyable but not the same. I saw a pair of Canvasback drakes(males) for the first time in years last weekend and just seeing them was a thrill. A little frustrating but still a thrill.

Missing out on the gym must be the same for you as me missing a day in the marsh. You just don't get those endorphins going. I have been talking to my friends down there in LV and they want me to come down soon. Sounds like it might be cool enough now for a northern boy like me to survive it. My friends BIL is a fireman also and so is his step FIL(retired) The FIL has a house done in firehouse decor and style. Concrete floors, institutional kitchen, all the memorabilia and a full scale bar to boot. A great place to have parties.

Yes, you are helpful and always caring so don't stop posting. This forum is only as good as the people who use it and you will always make it better. Have a great week and I will let you know if I decide to visit Sin City again. Maybe I can buy you and the H a drink to celebrate him passing his exams.

Journal,

Dad passed away about an hour ago... On my way to spend some time with his body and arrange funeral...

Paradise,

My thoughts and good wishes will be with you today. I know how much he meant to you and how much you loved him. He knew this also and it was a blessing for both of you. I am very sorry for you and your loss today.

Oh Paradise,
I am so sorry. Nothing can really prepare us for such a loss.
My prayers will be with you, your Mother and your Father tonight.
God bless,
holiday

Journal,

Dad died around 4.30 p.m. our time yesterday. When I sat with him the night before, I thought his eyes were very different. Pupils very large, sort of looking straight through me. It took him a while to recognize me. He said only I love you and missed completely the ridulous spectacle of the dog in costume.

He died yesterday quite quietly. Just before he died a music therapist had sat by his bed and played her guitar to him. He was clapping his hands weakly in time to the music. That's life one moment you are clapping your hands to a song, the next you're gone.

The chaplin said a few words, the nurses prayed around his bed.

I find beauty in all faiths but the one closest to my heart is buddism. The buddists believe the spirit does not leave the body right away - not until your skin goes a grayish hue.

I requested a buddist monk come say a final blessing. The dog and I waited seven hours for her to appear. I made several cups of tea..lisened to a rousing card game going on in the lounge outside ... and mostly remembered why I loved him so. It may be my fancy, but I thought his face changed during those hours, his eyes opened a little wider. I sat and wondered what he was seeing.

When the Lama arrived..she had come straight from giving a course and was wearing a sweatshirt that said 'Kindness is my Religion'. She had a six month old sheltie in her car - utterly charming. And as it happens out of the blue also one of Canada's foremost Lamas. She said she knew she would have a call today... and that whoever she was called to would be a very gentle soul. We prayed together and talked. She is visiting India in December for a special service being held by the Dali Lama. She requested a small amount of Dad's ashes to bring with her to be blessed...wow.

After she left, I said the Lord's Prayer one last time. I found it really hard to leave him. The dog had been quiet most of the time. Around 3.00 a.m. he got up and had a huge happy scratch on the linoleum. He does that when things are good. I took it as a cue to say good by... kissed Dad on the forehead ...then went back and kissed him again.

My husband heard first from the hospital he went directly to my Mom to sit with her. She didn't want to go to the nursing home. She didn't feel up to it. When I arrived it was really late. All three of us hugged - too tired to talk.

I'm back home now.. about to fall into bed. Earlier, I went for a long walk by the water to just a spectacular dawn..running into a neighbour who has been diagnosed with lymphatic cancer. He and I joked and laughed about dying and death. I gave him Dad's lucky hat which I happened to have in my bag it reads - No Surrender.

I am going to miss him so much....

No Surrender.

What a nice sentiment to take from all of your pain, though it may be selfish of me.

You and your Mother are in my prayers. Your father is now up and moving and doing all of the wonderful things that made him whole on this Earth before. I hope you envision this and smile.

Blessings,

Eibrab

Oh man PB, my heart goes out to you. I was holding my mom's hand when she passed away (she was only 46 yrs old) from cancer. No matter what their age, it's always hard to lose a parent.

Many hugs to you.

PB How are you doing today?
You are in my thoughts...
holiday

Paradise,

We are all thinking of you and wishing the very best for you and your mother. Take care and god bless.

Hi Holiday,

Thanks for your kind thoughts. I have been really busy.. constantly on the phone it seems. Plus I have come down with just a wicked head cold. I look like someone you would want to keep 20 paces back from and I sound like Elmer Fudd...

I have things pretty much organized for Dad's service and wake. A good variety of beer, music (bagpipes), all the right final touches to a life well lived. The dog has a special dispensation to attend the memorial service.

My brother flies in tonight - so it should be a sad but fun gathering of the clan and friends.

I hope things are well with you. All that tile... impressive... I will be asking for tips... because I want to redo our foyer ...

Cheers,

Paradise.

Hi Dukhuntr,Familycomesfirst,Eibrab,

Thank you for your condolensces.... very sweet... very much appreciated.

Cheers,

Paradise and Blue

Journal,

Wow what a week. I'm sitting here running through a box kleenex - a snuffling red nosed coughing virus farm.

I am just cleaning up after a setting out a quick buffet of chinese food for my husband and one of our employees. He had come by to drop off a couple pieces of furniture that were at my Dad's room in the nursing home. Would I mind if he kept my Dad's desk? It would look good in his new foyer? duh! Could he come over Saturday morning and organize some of more of the things he needs to set up housekeeping in his new place? My Dad's funeral is in the early afternoon that day. duh!

His entire family has called and confirmed that they will be there. Although my husband has been kind in the last couple of days... sitting with Mom the day my Dad died ... calling family.. picking up a couple of Dad's things. He is clearly not keen on being at the funeral. "My favourite suit isn't clean. Some of its here and some of its at home. I won't have time to deal with it. What time again is the funeral?"

It must be hard to know you have to face all of your family, your estranged wife's family, all of your old friends not having behaved in a manner everyone expects of you.


Things are looking up... my brother just walked in the door.

Paradise_blue

Your grace and class inspire me. Stay strong this weekend, those of us here are pulling for you.

I do wonder, however, if the dog appreciates the bagpipes?

*smile*

Blessings,

Eibrab

Hey paradise,

I can see the clarity returning to your posts so I know you are doing well. You will get thru this with or without H's help and or support. Sounds like this has shaken him up too. Who knows and right now who cares, take care of your family and yourself during all of this and let him fend for himself. Might even do him some good to reflect on what he may be leaving behind.

Right now he is seeing what family really means. Your brother and the rest of the family are there for you and your mother and to pay their respects to your father. Who will be there for him if something were to happen now? This will be a big eye opener for him I think.

Be the gracious and caring person you have always been and enjoy being with your family. From what you have said of your Dad he would want you to celebrate his life not mourn it.

My thoughts are still with you and your family.

PB...I hope you will start to feel better soon. Head colds make it hard on a person, but perhaps it's God's way for you to kind of daze through these next few days.
I would kindly ask your H to wait until next week or so to come over and do "anything" with any of the things in your home. He's hitting you with too much right now and it's not fair.
How is your Mother doing?
Bagpipes...I love the bagpipes. What a beautiful way to celebrate your Dad.
You are in my thoughts.
Peace,
holiday

Hi Eibrab,

LOL, I can just see my dog start to yowl.. the moment the piper launches into Amazing Grace. Should be an interesting service.

Thanks for the smile.

Cheers,

PB

Hi Holiday,

Mom is well. She is a resilient woman full of strength.
The drugs are taking effect. I look marginally less like Rudolph this morning.

His funeral really will be a celebration. No one is wearing black. It is much easier dealing with death when you know the person was ready to move on. He lived a long and very happy productive life. You couldn't really ask for more.

How is your shoulder? Shoulder injuries take a very long time to heal. It is the least structured joint in the body. Have you been to a physiotherapist for it yet?

Stay well...

Cheers,

PB

Hi Dukhuntr,

Thank you. Maybe on Saturday you could lift a glass of that single malt to a kind old newspaperman... north of the border. I hope you have a great weekend. What are your plans?

Cheers,

PB

Paradise,

I will gladly lift a glass to the man that was the inspiration and role model that made you the person you are today. I will also lift one to you and your future, I know it will be a happy and fulfilling one.

I am taking a break from hunting this weekend and am just going to poke around the house and go to the UNR football game with my lifelong friends. We are planning a tailgate feast and a day of fun just to relax and enjoy the company of old friends. We were all in the same fraternity at UNR and it will be like the "old days". We will be raising our glass not just to you and your father but to another old friend that lost his battle with cancer last week also. Luckily I can walk home from the stadium if necessary, there will be plenty of "lifting" going on.

The dog will be depressed for the whole weekend but I will make it up to her next week.

Thank you for asking PB...working with my chiropractor and muscle therapist.
Darn thing is taking it's sweet time to heal. Lucky it doesn't stop me from tile laying only from lifting to the side or over my head.
I too will raise a glass to your Father on Saturday (if couse with my right arm!).

Sorry dh to hear of your good friend. I hope they weren't going through too much suffering.

I wish you both a nice Friday...and good weather on Saturday PB for the day.

holiday

dh...be careful on how much "lifting" you do at the tailgate party!

Okay everyone I need your input. An old friend of mine just called and made me an offer I am struggling with. He is going to Mexico tomorrow on a pheasant hunt for 5 days. Someone in his group bailed at the last minute and is not going. He offered to take me instead, and sponsor my trip to boot. I could not afford this on my own right now and don't feel right about accepting. What do you guys think?

I would love to do this but at the same time I am in the middle of billings for our company on our jobs. Half way thru 30 million in billings. Our CFO has been doing these in the past and could finish these for me so I have a dilemma. Do I go and swallow some pride and risk some bad feelings at work or miss a golden opportunity? Lets hear it from you guys. What would you do?

Hi Dukhuntr,

Twenty years from now you will remember the trip... you won't remember the billings. Absolutely go for it...
Have a great time!

Cheers,

PB

I agree with PB...
Why are you questioning your friend's great offer? Go Man Go!!

Hey guys,

Thanks for the input but I got shot down here at work. I am the controller here and we just had a management audit done a couple of months ago. Well when I asked to go they told me I am running meetings all next week on system changes and staff reorganization. I CANT GO!

AHHHHHHHHH SH**!!!!!!!!!!

The lifting will commence right after work today and continue all weekend now! I think the first few will be Tequila in honor of my sacrifice for the good of the company. And to kill the pain! 2005 is now officially the sh**tyiest year in the history of life as I know it. If bad things come in threes this should do it for me. Marriage, friend with cancer and now this. I hope this ends soon!

Journal,

well it looks like we all need to rant tonight.

Took the dog out for a walk before his big bath up for the ceremony tomorrow and ran into the OW. Just kind of ruins the mood in my day or evening when ever I have to actually look at her. She always gives me these big smirky smiles. Now I look straight through her.. but steam up inside big time. Very unbuddist of me as my brother puts it....

Otherwise a very pleasant night...wrote Dad's eulogy. Lisened to his favourite music - Roy Rogers - what a hoot and we had coke floats - a big favourite in our household and Dad's remedy for all our chldhood hurts. The drugs are kicking in I sound normal and I am starting to feel better.

dukhuntr..

Could I ease your pain by speaking some spanish to you ?

I shall go look up duck, aim and fire...

I tend to be rather fluent for ordering food, and giving farm hands orders.. but your's will require some study.

I'm on it, if need be.

:-)

Eibrab

Paradise-blue

Thinking of you today.

Sending you strength.

Eibrab

Journal,

Dad's funeral was lovely. We sang Home on the Range... his favourite song in his last months. One of the few songs, he could remember the words to. Our finale was Happy Trails. People arrived to the chapel to the sounds of Roy Rogers - yodeling. It was a celebration. My Dad would have wanted a joke not a tear. He would have loved it.

The dog did growl at the piper once but mostly walked among the many people gathered, greeting everyone and licking their hands. I delivered my eulogy well. First time I had been able to read it aloud with out crying. I kept telling myself that would be what Dad would want. This was his day.

The WS was very helpful. He drove family here and there. He was good. After the reception, my brother and I drove him home to his new bachelor pad. Wow. It is really nice...great audiophile sound system. ... very swanky. At first I didn't want to go up for a drink but then I thought I should see this. The man has moved on. Now I need to.

I feel like I am mourning my marriage in layers. It has been a year of dispossession for me. I've lost my favourite strawhat on a plane in Paris, a car to an inattentive cabbie, a husband to a midlife surge of youthful giddy abandon and the allure of reinventing himself as a swinging bachelor .. a father to the inevitability of old age.

Life changes.

Paradise

I felt certain you would write a great eulogy. Delivering it was the challenge and I'm sure you handled it with your usual grace and style.

I'm surprised you went to the WH's new place. Remember curiousity killed the cat! Other than work the less you know and see the better. I can hear the hurt that was caused by your visit there in your journal entry. I have the same problem in that I just can't seem to stay away from my EX. Every contact brings out some sort of pain or conflict. I am doing everything I can now to maintain NC. I know you can't at this point but it sure sounds like you could minimize your hurts by seeing less of him and his SO. And no I don't think he has moved on . I think he is doing everything he can to convince himself what he is doing is right in his own mind. Continuing the fantasy and decorating it to fit the image his mind will accept and live with for now. Give the OW the time she needs to show her true colors. He will wake up to reality then.

Me giving you advise, thats like telling your heart surgeon how you want your surgery done. I have barely enough sense to keep my life in order let alone help you. I have a terrible hangover today! Three nights of overindulgence in a row. I lifted a glass of my best single malt to your Dad and one to you also as I said I would. The problems started when the lifting didn"t stop. Today will be a day of recovery and of rest.

Go do something for the poor dog you embarrassed at Halloween and get yourself to feeling better. I think your cold has you down more than anything else so get well and then get moving again.

Eibrab,

No spanish required I have completly put those thoughts behind me. Well actually I have killed all the brain cells that harbored all of those thoughts. Too much fun at the game and tailgate yesterday.

I actually thought to myself that my feeling of missing out on the trip of a lifetime was similar to what my EXWW must have been thinking when she allowed her A to happen. I chose to stay and keep my job and career, she chose to go with the A and start down a new and different road. Once I had this thought it was much easier to deal with missing out. That and a whole lot of beer.

Thanks for the offer and for caring.

I do hope that any contribution I attempt here is not considered an imposition. In this entire mess of mine, I have found so much useful information and so many kind souls, with some not so kind... but none refects anywhere near the compassion and "realness" of the posters in this thread.

Today I hoped Paradise's day was spent in reflection and peace. In reading here, I feel very close in train of thought as to what dukhuntr posted about your H. I do feel reality will find him. I wonder where you will be when it does.:-)

And Dukhuntr... I did ask the Mexican gentleman who works at the farm here, a few words regarding duck hunting and such. He was kind and ultimately very afraid that I asked. He's been wittness ro my latest attempts at trap shooting.... and the many clay pigeons who have flown to freedom at each of my turns.

Blessings,

Eibrab

PB, glad all went well yesterday for you and the family.
And glad to hear your space alien attempted to be less of a body snatcher than usual.
As far as checking out your WS's new pad...well, I would have done the same thing. This might make me think of how much he is not the man I was married too and/or this would help me to start moving on too, if I chose to. Either one is rough but I think paradise you will make it. You have such inner strength.
I hope you sleep well tonight. Think of a fresh start tomorrow morning. Keep your Dad's memories close.
Prayers,
holiday

Eibrab,

Yes we are real and I think Holiday and paradise are as grounded as anybody you could hope to talk to. Use them to help you through the rough times, I have and it really helps to have caring and compassionate people to listen and vent to. I think it helps even more when we get off of the WS topics and get into other areas to move your focus to. Paradise's travels get all of us thinking again about resuming a more normal and well rounded life. Holiday is so busy with her home business you get to thinking about all of the things you could be doing at home and just don't have the energy or motivation for. Most of all you just get a sense of decency from these gals that is refreshing and personaly satisfying to me. I will be forever thankful I have found them and that they took pity on this poor idiot and talked to me.

I will always try to pay this forward to anyone who seeks my thoughts or just wants an ear to bend for a while. Have a great day!

Thank you DH. You are a kind spirit too!

I haven't been on MB too much since the start of my H's classes. Now laying the downstairs tile and sewing my craft.

Sooooo , Eibrab, how may I help. Sorry to see you here. There are just too many of us.

This month for me is d-day month. November 29th is the date I actually found out via the phone bill, but November 12th is the day the OW's phone call came in and my suspicions began. My H "was" (hopefully,) very good at hiding all of this from me. Had she not called his cell phone late that night (this also happened with his first PA), I may have never known. So this month has had it's ups and downs as well as last month, reliving the night in October he tried so hard to get away with. But we are working on it. I will have to say he is extremely "loving" this past few weeks. Only at times can I take it all in (sad, I wish I could just roll over and let the love cover me...), perhaps next year.

Eibrab, Holiday and Paradise,

I have been posting back and forth in the General Questions forum with some MB'ers who have been divorced and recovered. If I am to do what they suggest, I am going to need a tremendous amount of encouragement and support from you guys too. I need to be completely dark with the EX and all of her "friends".

I have tried to start withdrawing from her and just can't seem to do it with any conviction. I still love her and I guess I always will. So instead of trying to ignore those feelings and emotions, I am going to take the dark, dark Plan B route and try to sustain the love that is left long enough to allow the A to run its course. Hopefully when it does my light will shine thru the fog. I just hope by then I am not just her next best option and will be able to tell the difference.

All of you have read my posts what do you think? Am I being too optimistic here? Could there be a chance she could come back and confront the biggest issue she has ever faced? I am reaching for straws I know, but if there is a chance I want to give it the time necessary to come out. She has been with him for 16 months now if she was at least honest enough with me to tell me the truth about when it got physical. I don't have any idea when the EA started, but they have worked together for 5 years. I felt our relationship change almost two years ago when her hip started acting up before the surgery. I attributed all the changes to the pain her hip was giving her and not to the fact that she was discussing her fears and anxiety with him instead of me.

I almost wish she was reading my posts so that she could see how sincere I was about wanting to reconcile. I have always been a person who sees things as black and white. I don't ever put much into a grey area and she knows this. She, I'm sure, believes I would never forgive her even after several letters to the contrary. I think every time I have busted my plan B it has been to point out the fact that I do still hold out hope for us as a couple. And to bust on the OM of course. A definte no-win to be avoided at all costs from now on. I also need to bury the hatchet as far as the OM is concerned. I still have running thoughts as to what I want to do the next time I run into him. None are pleasant and many will land me in big trouble with both her and the law.

So you guys have your work cut out for you! Keep me dark and non-violent all over the internet. Good luck and start the posting I am a hopeless schmuck and I know it.

Dh...hmmmm, I need to ask you this: Do you really think you want her back? I mean, the new person she has become?
Sometimes we get what we wish for, but did we really search deep down inside ourselves and find the answer?
I don't want to mislead you in any way, but I would feel at this time, after 16 months of your torture, I would need to move on.
Funny, or should I say sad...I have a strange feeling once you truly get on with your life and meet someone new, she will be right there panting for you to take her back...Murphy's Law.
I will try to help all I can.
Peace,
holiday

Holiday,

You are right as usual. I don't know why I still have this morbid desire to at least give it a chance again. Maybe its because I feel guilty I never saw this as it was happening. Maybe I am just stubborn, like I said I don't know either. I do know I had a vision of our future together and I just can't seem to give up on that yet. I feel in my heart that she is a better person than how she is acting right now. I truely believe the OM has taken advantage of a weakness in her and is exploiting it to the hilt. She is also a stubborn person and hates to admit mistakes and own them.

I am not to the point yet that I am ready for a relationship anyway so I am just going to do my own thing and see what transpires. I think you are right on the money about how just about the time I do find someone else she will be at the door. If that happpens I will be at a point I can say I gave her every chance to come back and I have moved on. I am definitely not there yet.

Thanks for being honest with me, I am still confused and somewhat angry over the whole thing and don't trust myself and my own judgement regarding her yet.

Hi Eibrab,Holiday and Dukhuntr,

I hope everyone is well. Holiday it sounds like being busy this month is a good thing. Sad memories are always difficult to deal with.

Sorry I have not been posting we had a technical problem with our modem. Just got it replaced today.

I am spending a couple of days working on my home with my brother's help. After see the WS's brand new pristine space, our place looks like it needs work. Funny when I was walking through it - there is no indication that it is set for a couple - only a swinging bachelor. I believe he has become a bit like a bee that wants to taste all the flowers.

Wandering through looking at the view, the balcony the way everything looks... I thought to myself. The man has changed channels. He was watching me an amalgam of cartoons, family programing, house and garden and the food network for 25 years and now he has defintitely switched to SEX TV!

I'm still focusing on staying positive.

Dukhuntr, I know how hard it is to stop loving some one after so long. I don't think you do have to stop loving them. I think it is very healthy to recognize all the good times. Statistically, you wife behaved wonderfully for the majority of your marrriage right. It is important to remember that. I think it is also important to face to-day's reality without getting all bent out of shape... angry and bitter. Anger is a wasted emotion. It gives you nothing back.

I've got to go. My brother and I are taking Mom to lunch...

Cheers,

Paradise.

Great to hear PB you are in good spirits.
Hmmm, sex tv??? Did your WS happen to have a medical check up prior to his getting together with the OW?
The reports now say men don't go through just one midlife crisis, they may go through as many as eight!
Scarey.
Sex tv sounds like he's making sure he's still got it (whatever "it" was). I wonder if the OW has got her own set of troubles brewing.
DH, yes anger is hurt all twisted inside of us. It's better to deal with the aftermath of hurt vs the aftermath of anger. And I agree, anger is a wasted emotion. Wasted energy.
Enjoy your afternoon,
holiday

Hi Guys,

Can you tell its been a bad week all around? No hunting trip, big repair bill on the heating system at home, and some billing deadlines I am struggling with at work. And to top it off I seem to have fallen back into a major funk again. I will be normal again soon, so don't give up on me yet!

Journal,

A pleasant day, I got up early to do some house painting ... then off to the beach with the dog and my brother. We had a really nice leisurely lunch with Mom. She is looking frailer and smaller. The spark she always has - just didn't seem to be there today. It is going to be tough with Dad gone. There will be a gaping hole in our lives.

Funny how you can be a living breathing man making a joke and only a few days later, you are a small pile of ash in a bronze urn that looks like three antique books and would make a great door stop! Life is so fragile and transitory.

I have been thinking about people I have loved that have died. I had a friend die on her 60th birthday. I am still mad. No one should die on their birthday. Funny, when she was 48 her professor husband became obsessed with a student and basically asked her leave. She packed a few items in the car - drove across the country and started a great new life. She let him have everything. Even though, she reinvented herself completely. I don't believe she ever stopped loving him. I met him at her funeral. I thought she was so wasted on him. In fact though I think she was wasted on herself - she never really got just how great - how funny and how classy a lady she was. My husband was really fond of her. At one point, I told him you are doing exactly what Ann's husband did. He said no - there is no comparison.

On the plus side, seeing death face to face, makes me value each day more. I am ready to stop worrying about yesterday and concern myself with today and tomorrow.

dukhuntr...

I read your post and the need for support last night and have attempted to answer you several times today. Nothing quite "fits" for me here.

I suppose I feel so unqualified to offer any advice that might help you. I wish I could be so gifted with words, so that you could skip (in a manly fashion, mind you) away from the computer and feel as compelled to look towards tomorrow as Paradise is in her last sentence here.

I know we will all get to that point. My situation is different. I think each of our "healings" will be unique. I just hope they are complete.

I feel as Holiday. There must a be a lady dukhuntr out there somewhere with a heart of a true person and the looks of that tall blonde woman on the Sunday morning hunting shows...

I'd think a man with a newly restored heating system in his home would be a hot commodity.

:-)

You are in my prayers.

Eibrab

Holiday..

I appreciate your offer of help... I will ask for it in time . :-)

Blessings,

Eibrab

Eibrab,

Thanks for your concern, it is appreciated and also for the words of encouragement. I'm not sure why I have all of these mixed emotions over the EX. You would think that after 8 months of seperation and all that she has done to show me she is finished with me I would be in a better place by now. IC helps but I have never been one to give up on anything easily. It's the OCD of an accountant showing it's ugly head again. That and the fact she keeps giving off these signals to keep her foot in my door every chance she gets. That is the part that creates my indecision.

I know it's just her way of keeping her options open and I should not allow her to make me an option, but I am just not strong enough to do this yet. Everyone around me has told me the same things you and paradise and Holiday have about opening myself up to other relationships. I hear all about how I would be a "great catch" for someone else and all the good qualities I have to offer and how much I have going for me. At the end of the day though I still do not feel this about myself yet. The self respect and confidence have not yet resurfaced after all of this.

So instead of going about life in a way that would attract someone else to share in my life I dwell on what could have been and on my own insecurities. I know I look forward to the day that I can look back and say I did my best and it just wasn't going to happen for us. I am just not there yet. Paradise and I discussed how hard it is to give up on your vision of the future. Maybe that is not the right way to think of it. Maybe you did not give up, more likely the WS did not share that vision and wanted something completely different. Accepting that theory is difficult because you believed after all those years that you shared the same dreams and goals in life as your spouse.

For now I will be here talking to good people like you and paradise and Holiday and working on regaining that self assuredness and confidence that will look appealing to someone else. I would enjoy having someone other than the dog to spend my time with. The kids are busy in their own lives and relationships so I don't see that much of them lately. I talk to them daily but getting together regularly is not easy.

Have a great day and I hope you are well!


P.S. - I have seen the blonde on that show and if you have an in with her or someone like her, by all means hook me up!I can't imagine a better boost to the self confidence than sharing a sunrise in the duck marsh with someone like that.

Hey PB. I hear ya about your dad. It was a strange transition for me when my mom passed away. I kept expecting a phone call from her. It was hard for my mind to get itself around the fact she was gone, she wasn't getting up in the morning, making coffee, getting ready for a busy day ahead. She went from being this young looking vibrant woman to someone who looked like a concentration camp victim. She was always concerned about her appearance, never left the house without makeup. It was sad to see her stop caring, I knew she had given up. She just kept getting sicker and sicker. It only took 2 months from the time she was diagnosed to pass away.

I am also sad that my D doesn't really remember her. My mom loved that little girl so much. One of the first things she said to me when she was told her cancer was terminal was how it broke her heart she wouldn't see her grow up. I wonder sometimes what their relationship would be like now. I think she would have really enjoyed being around her. She was a cool mom who loved fashion. All of my friends always liked her.

When they leave you it does leave a huge hole in your life and in your heart. I want to tell you I am amazed at your strength. You have had a lot on your plate lately. Thank heavens for your doggie, and your brother, it seems they have been a great source of love and strength.

Hi Familycomesfirst,

I am sorry for the loss of your Mom. Even though time passes - there is still that aching place in your heart and sense of yearning for all the memories you still wanted to share with her. It must have been incredibly hard to lose someone so young and so quickly.

You are in my prayers...

Cheers,

PB

Journal,

I believe I am returning to normal, although alittle lost without Dad. However, oddly enough, it is losing Dad that has made me really shake myself and get a grip. Life is far too precious to pine for what you don't have while not truly appreciating what you do have.

As humans go.. I am definitely blessed. Wasting away over a man, who my brother describes as pleasant enough but not even remarkable. ...doesn't make sense does it.

What does make sense is to start living again ... like I mean it....

````````````````````````````
I still talk to my Dad. His remains are not far from my desk. When I finish work for the day. Or particularly before I go to bed I always say 'Night Dad'.

I think when we lose people to death, mishap, another woman, another man, a change of heart, the urge to polinate! - there is a part of that person that remains with us. Some of my best parts are from my Dad. I'd like to think that after a 25 year relationship - there would be parts of me that come directly from my husband. Though I'm not sure what?

Letting go is easier if you know that there are things you get to keep. Memories, habits, phrases, ways of looking at things that just melt into you... that you never really give up. I know I will continue to miss my husband on a daily basis. I know that the pain won't stop. However, I can choose how much of my time and focus I care to allocate to it. Pain is part of life. It is what makes us aware, alive, in tune.

Frankly there is just so much out in the world that is interesting, much much much much more interesting than being broken hearted.

Paradise,

The thoughts in your last post have convinced me you missed your true calling in life. Writing should have been your career! Beautiful and encouraging at the same time.

Has the dog been in IC since Halloween? I haven't heard much about the him lately. He's probably keeping a low profile so as not to inspire new and more creative costume ideas from Mom.

You are an inspiration to all of us who read your posts. You seem to be able to look thru all of the hurts and emotions and get right to the core of the issues better than anyone I have even heard. I know I would be much better off if I could emulate you better. How you choose to cope with life's setbacks and losses defines you as a person. Your true personality comes out during all of this and can't be hidden or walled off. Your's has risen and shone brightly giving all those around you a sense of calm and rationality.

Hi Dukhuntr,

Thank you for the compliments. I believe you are not giving yourself enough credit. What you are going through is actually a very harsh experience. Everyone mends in different ways and at various speeds. I believe you have come a long way from where you were.

At present the dog does not appear to need therapy. Don't laugh a friend of mine once took her wheaton terrier to a doggie psychologist. The poor mutt was biting the cleaning lady. The psychologist would not see her and the dog without her husband being present. He had to interview the entire pack!

I have been running around all day dealing with alot of paper. Looking forward to a nice rum and putting my feet up...

Cheers,

PB

Hey Paradise,

I'd like to think I have come a ways from where I started but it only takes a little nudge and I seem to slip right back. Yesterday I had lunch with DD, and she used the opportunity to tell me something I knew was coming just not this soon. She said she feels she needs to be more supportive of her mother and that means socializing with the OM. She said she didn't want to make her mother hide that part of her life anymore.

Even though I knew it would happen sooner or later I still harbored a hope she would make a statement for me by continuing not to see the OM. I didn't handle it very well and said some things I should not have ever said. Nothing hurtful to her just not what she needed to hear from a supportive father. It just makes me sick to my stomach to think of my kids being influenced in the slightest bit by this "boy". I finally came to my senses and told her to do whatever she felt was right for her, but it sure hurt doing it. I fretted over her all afternoon and apologized twice and made her feel even more uncomfortable. I think this has made me feel even more loss over the divorce. Now I feel I have let my kids down even more.

I was feeling good before lunch, I had just left IC and he had hit on something that made sense to me finally. I asked him what his read was on my EX. He said he had only seen her twice but from what he got from that and what I have told him he sensed she was exhibiting sociopathic tendencies that were present our whole marriage. The use of the credit cards and hiding them, and all of the entitlement things she has done since. It fit with what I have seen for our whole marriage. Never owning her mistakes, always something or someone else at fault. He said he does not believe she has any guilt about the A. I have felt the same thing for months. It hit home with me and I did feel better for awile.

Well I am leaving work early today to start a long weekend of hunting with the dog. Maybe it will recharge my attitude. Sounds like you are getting back to normal yourself. Hopefully you won't have to go to group therapy with your dog after the psycological torture you put him thru! Maybe some rum in his kibbles would help? Just a thought for the dog on my part. Have a great weekend!

I read Paradise's thoughts and feel like I have just added to my literary prowess. I can't think of anything that I have come across in written word so eloquently and understandably "put".

:-)

And dear dukhunter, Holiday is so much more qualified to understand what you are going through. I simply feel your pain and care.

I do think that these partners we have chosen in our lives do go through such a sense of fog. It hurts even more when we see our own beloved children being dragged into it. I read through most of the posts in this thread, but not all..and have noticed that your ordeal was so very fast for you. From acknowledgement to finality. We are similar in that respect for many reasons.

I find myself at different points of the grieving process in my situation depending on the day, the time, the mood or simply something that "triggered" it.

You children, no doubt, love you and respect you. How you handle them or their views in any given moment will be both admirable and forgiveable depending on the circumstance, and maybe even both.

As far as your WW feeling any guilt. She may. Someday it may come out. I would venture to guess that for both you and Paradise, those well-deserved emotions of guilt from each of your WW's will become quite evident when they finally see the two of you moving on with your lives.

Funny how those we love can play games with us and maybe not even know they are doing so. We're all guilty, I suppose.

On a deeper and more fascinating note... :-)
I had woman once who claimed to be an animal psychic come to my barn ( I make my living in the agricultural industry ). She was there for another venue and simply walked through and stopped in front of a particular horse's stall. She spent a moment with him as if in therapy, and turned to me and said.. He'd like to be called "Silver". It seems that she insists that this poor horse felt that everyone constantly made FUN of him due to his name and he thought he deserved more respect.

I gave it great thought. Truly...and I assure you that there were no indications of that animal's name anywhere to be found... But I started to call him Silver.

He acted proud. It was minimal effort on my part to ease his insecurities.

So, therapy may exist for costume wearing dogs. Then again.. if the dogs (or horses for that matter) actually tell us they need professional help.. We might be the ones in need of much more than they... lol

Btw, the horse's barn name was Ugh. Just Ugh. Short for Ugly.. and he was.

Be careful this weekend, Dukhunter.

Walk on the beach for me, Paradise... and Holiday, you can lay your tile by yourself *grin*..

Thank you all for being here.

Eibrab

Journal

The beach is fast transforming from sun drenched sand to a bleak windswept landscape inhabited only by the warmly dressed. However, those few hardy souls still provide good company.

I ran into a friend of mine today. She had heard but not in much detail what happened to my marriage. I said simply some men get silly in their fifties. I really didn't feel like saying anything more. I have no desire to be negative. Ultimately, a good measure of the happiness you can find in life comes from respecting other people's wishes. My husband has made choices I find hard to respect but I believe I should try. He must want this reinventtion of himself very badly to throw away so much.

I am dogless this weekend. Worse yet my brother leaves at 5.00 a.m. I will be left to my very long, many page list of things I must get done. Almost nothing on the list has any semblance of fun to it. The most appealing item is second coat of paint on laundry room!

My brother and I dropped off my Dad's ashes to the Lama tonight. She sat and talked to us for a very long time. I find her intriguing. She is 66 but has the energy and spark of someone much much younger. The Lama tried to make it clear in her comments that we are all connected. All one in a way. You cannot hurt someone else without hurting your self. I worry about my husband. He is living without thinking. That can't be good

They shave their hair. It strikes me as both practical and fetching. I am quite sure I have spent at least a full 365 days fussing, combing, washing, braiding, colouring, blow drying, curling and straightening my hair. Now I suspect the time could have been better spent. I've often thought that all hair care expenses for women should be tax deductable as a productivity incentive. My hair must link to a higher function control panel in my brain. Bad hair day... very little worthwhile gets done.

We met a friend of his afterwards for a quick drink. They were having an animated conversation, so I chatted with the lady bartender. She has a 16 year old son going to his first rock concert tonight-heavy metal. She is worried. She described a moshing pit, a place where the kids jump up and down to the music so violently - that sometimes bones get broken. Ouch.. I started to worry. She is from Newfoundland, her island charm is still intact.

I wandered home alone... stopping in the stores to pick up a few things. All the Xmas decorations are out in full strength. I have been dreading Xmas... but I think that is very poor spirited of me. I have always loved the holidays. I get right into it. There is no reason not to love it now. It will be different for sure.. perhaps there will be sad moments when I think of all the memories of my Dad and my Husband. Last year I made a sit down dinner for 20 people and three dogs. This year it looks like it will be 8 people and 2 dogs. I will make all the same dishes I do every year and the poor dog will wear his antlers.

I am spending Xmas at the cottage this year. My husband has agreed to giving me the first four weekends of the season. I will do my regular round of entertaining and then decamp for the rest of the season. He will stay with family in the area for the first month. I am really happy about it.

I looked at myself in a full length store mirror tonight. I don't look heart broken, just a well togged out, nicely groomed middle aged woman with clever eyes.

I wonder who I am some times. I am no longer a wife. within a few years I will no longer be a daughter. My key roles have shifted. What I seem to be changes with my attire. This summer I wore denim alot. I had people I have worked with for many years walk by me without seeing me. Without a suit and briefcase - apparently I am unrecognizable.

It is interesting how certain people come into our lives and leave a stamp on who we are. They change us. Others come into our lives without ever really seeing who we are - they relate only to what we do or what we have. I think there is alot of joy to be found in really trying to see those around us. When I was younger I use to ride a bus to university, I often sat there in awe of all the human knowledge, understanding, and memories that would sit around me at any given moment.

HI Eibrab,


I will happily walk on the beach for you.. fully dressed..hat, mittens and thick socks.

It is a lovely place in all the seasons to contemplate life. Something about waves, the continuity of their motion, rising falling lapping into the sand again and again that calms the spirit.

Plus there are magical sunrises and sunsets. I think bearing heart ache is eased very much by nature. I suspect your life on a farm has solace that would not be available in a city home.

Ugh... to Silver..there is a lesson in re-invention for us all. Thanks for sharing it.

Speaking of animal stories, I have friends who live in an island community. Their neighbour had a dog who would walk over every morning to another neighbour's home and wait outside for their cat to come out. The cat would flounce into the yard and two would walk the neighbourhood together for about an hour. They would return to their starting point and say goodby until the next day. This went on for years. One day the dog showed up at the cat's house in the afternoon. He laid down and died in her yard. The cat would not let anyone touch him for hours afterwards.

Love is all around us....

Cheers,

PB

Journal,

I watched Something Gotta Give this week with my brother it had a wonderful line. " Schmucks are people too you know". There was also a reference to Mr. Midnight. I think that is how I will refer to my WS - Mr. Midnight.

I believe there is alot of sense in that line. We are all people - schmuck and nonschmuck alike. I think Mr. Midnight is making a mistake with our lives... yet I can't be sure. This may be his shot to really live life the way he probably has wanted to for a very long time.

What makes me sad, is that it means that many of the things I valued as very important - are definitely not important to him. We had a huge gap in perspective that escaped me completely.

I have spent most of the day cleaning to various types of music..Roy Rogers to Annie Lennox. When I miss my Dad I put on Roy Rogers.

I don't think most men understand the theraputic benefits of cleaning. It is very relaxing particularly if you don't have to deal with clutter. Wiping, polishing, washing clear surfaces is very soothing. Odd snipets of conversation float into my memory.

The OW once told me she thought my husband and I appeared to be the most happily married couple she had ever met. I didn't pick up on the 'appeared to be'. I should have I guess. Perhaps we were just a challenge she couldn't resist.

Given the huge smiles she flashes me I believe she is happy with the current circumstances. Awkward dealing with people who enjoy your pain. To me that is a true sign of disfunction.

Sadly, I can't envision myself with Mr. Midnight anymore. There are flashes of him in my mind and heart that are very appealing.. waking up from deep sleep ..face all crumpled..winning at anything always vibrating with energy. He was nice to be around then.

Now he is a complete stranger who is not nice to be around. Not that he is rude or anything, it is just difficult to be around someone - who when faced with a choice - didn't choose you.

Hi Dukhuntr,

I read your last post several times. It made me sad. I don't think you are letting your kids down. I do think you are dealing with a really big change in your life that is one of the toughest out there to come to grips with.

It looks like your wife has moved on. You can continue to hope for a reconciliation but you still have to live in the mean time.

I would take up new interests. The nice lady you asked out not too long ago. Why not ask her out again.. dinner and line dancing! She'd love it I am sure. It doesn't have to be a heavy romantic thing. You just need a friend right now. I would bet she would be delighted to lisen.

The dog gets defatted broth over his kibble.. he hasn't developed a taste for rum. Although I have! Pusser's British Royal Navy Rum...my favourite!

Cheers,

PB

Paradise,

Thanks for listening and the good advise. Yes the EX has definitely moved on. Now she is in the process of moving the kids along with her. I need to let that happen for the kids. Holding them back would be strictly selfish on my part.

I'd like to think my daughter is bright enough and honest enough with herself not to buy into the rationalizations being thrown out there by the EX and the EXMIL. I would be disappointed if she felt she had to buy into them so she could feel good around her mother. Nothing I can do to control this other than be myself and not let her throw her mothers excuses at me. DS still really dislikes OM and has told me so frequently as of late. I assume EX has his sister working on him too and this is his way of letting me know.

As for that friend I went out with, she is having some medical issues and has told me she just doesn't feel up to dating or even just hanging out together right now. I have offered to help in any way I can, but she is real independent and wants to take care of herself. I think this is what attracted me to her. She lives her own life and makes her own fun. EX usually waited for me to come up with something to make her happy. I know I will never be with someone again that looks to me to make them happy all of the time.

As for line dancing, NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! My dancing abilities are pretty much limited to a nice two step and if drunk enough some other stumbling in general. I went to a Salsa lesson recently with another lady friend that needed a partner and I was terrible. Absolutely no rhythm or timing to speak of. She was really nice about it but I was BAD! I have played baseball and football and all of the other sports kids play and done really well at all of them. You would think that dancing would fall into place for me but no, I think that gene is missing in me. I enjoy it but I definitely do not excel at it.

Reading you journals gives me a nice sense of calm when I am feeling bad. I hope they do the same for you as you write them. I feel better today after a couple of days of fresh air and friends and family out hunting. Bloody Mary's with Mom at breakfast and Whiskey or Scotch on the rocks before dinner. Dad says I have hooked Mom on the Bloodys and is jealous. His diabetes prevents him from enjoying more than a sip here and there and he wants more. I have never had Pusser's rum I will look for some and give it a try in your honor.

You sound wonderful. I envy you in your ability to think and do what you know is the right thing for you at any given time. This takes a really strong person and I wish I had more of you in me. I have a vision of you in my head now and it is clearly in a business suit with briefcase. It fits with how you write and think. I bet spending the summer in denim was a complete release for you and very healing also. I wonder what the WS's thought of this? A complete change in appearance and attitude? Next time you need to get a point across to him and want to make it clear you mean business show up in the suit again and I guarantee he will sit up and take notice you are serious.

Take Care!

Hi Dukhuntr,

Actually, I think doing things you are really bad at, provides far more distraction than just about anything else. Doing things you are good at doesn't require the same focus or concentration.

I plan to get handy. I am the least handy person you are likely to meet. However, there is a challenge to improving -particularly when you are truly awful at something.

I plan to follow Holiday's example and learn how to lay tile. I would definitely like to install some moldings, refinish some marble, try some fancy faux paint finishes.

I have spent the evening cleaning out some of my bookcases. Apparently I own a 124 cook books. I use to read them at night to help me fall asleep. Cookbooks and bulb cataglogues are perhaps the most peaceful bedside reading that I can think of.

I find cleaning relaxing so I have been working at clearing out closets, decluttering, all worth while projects. Right now amidst so much change, I find it reassuring to be putting things in order. If anything I will at least end up with freshly painted neat closets. Plus which you find really great stuff. I've just come across a charcoal portrait of the dog. I forgot we had it done after winning it at a slient auction. He looks fabulous! I've put him in a place of honour - moving some of Mr. Midnight's trophies out to make space.

I just have this need to stay busy. It coincides with a time when I actually have alot to do: to organize my home for sale, wind down my involvement in our company, organize family matters and rethink my livelihood.

I have set up my mountain bike on my trainer - in my office. I am training for some longer distance cycling trips. My brother is doing a cycling trip to Cuba in February, I may or may not go.. but I thought it wouldn't hurt to be in shape to do the distances should I want to. I am looking forward to snow.. then the dog and I can go cross country skiing.

Typical things people do when they have been jilted I guess.. but they do seem to help...



Cheers,

PB

Hi paradise,

You need to remember who you are talking to here. I used all of my hyper-energy to clean my entire home of all visible signs of the EX by the third week she was gone. I also managed to rid myself of two truckloads of junk that went to the dump. I saw the floor of one closet for the first time in 20 years that week. You could tell by the difference in the paint color between the walls above the junk line and those below.

From there I moved on to the basement and went to town there also. The EX was great for ideas and starting projects but dismal at the finishing and clean-up. For example she painted the walls on the stairs to the basement while I was hunting one weekend two years ago. She said she wanted to put up crown molding at the ceiling line and did not paint where that was to be installed. It's still unpainted and waiting for me to finish now. As I said great ideas and starts but a poor finisher. Same as our marriage huh!

Challenges huh. I think I just stuck my hand up for one of those this week. Our duck club has 126 members and is run as a farm corporation. The treasurer is retiring from the board to relax and enjoy hunting more now that he is retired from his career also. I volunteered to take over the position(unpaid of course)and just got back from my first meeting. Four hours it took to talk about all the crap we deal with. This does not include the time I am going to spend each month writing checks, meeting with the bookkeeper, issuing new stock certs, etc every month. I don't think I need to worry anymore about dwelling on other stuff too long.

I think you need to make sure Mr. Midnight's trophy's find an appropriate storage area to compliment their significance to you. Do you have a septic tank? How about a dark, musty spider infested crawl space?

Alrighty then, I hope you are treating the dog to some special attention these days. I am off to hit the hay. I am working out at 4:30am with some friends that do call if I don't show by 5:00. Nothing makes my son grumpier than a 5:00am wake up call!

Hello,

Hope you are all well.

Still tiling and now repainting the family room. What a chore! Hopefully this will all be completed prior to Thanksgiving company.

PB...I just love the way you write. I can't tell you that enough. I am sorry to read that your WS is still a schmuck (love that movie, must have seen it 10 times by now. The way Diane Keaton's character crys as she types kills me.) Have you seen the movie As Good as it Gets? Very deep messages there also.
I am now reading a book called "Love Must be Tough" by Dr Dobson. It was recommended on another post here on MB. Very interesting.

This past week (H home alot more since classes than in 22 years) my H has been nit picking at me (which not until this past weekend did he even notice), to the point that our daughter and I smile at each other each time he does it. When he is stressed he complains about the "little things". On Saturday after major tile work, I finally broke down and explained to him I couldn't tolerate it any longer. He fought back for a moment and then, for the first time in years, he whole heartedly apologized. Amazing. Not that he is inconsiderate of my feelings, just in the past we always wrote things off like a joke. His apology gave me the warmest feelings of love for him in a long while.

The book I am reading describes your dealings with your WS, PB. Setting him free which you have done. That is what I did after my H's second A. I basically told him I couldn't live with him if I could no longer trust him and he would need to make every effort to prove I could trust him for the rest of our lives together. If he chose to continue on his poor path, it would be without me. So now he works on us everyday.

PB, why do you think your H hasn't asked for a divorce? How long does he think he can go on this way? How long does he think you can go on this way? You are always in my prayers.

DH, RE: your WS...

This sounds just like my H's oldest sister. She has been married 3 x's. She has A's to end the marriages. She even had an A, two days before her second marriage. She went through intense counseling near the end of her 3rd marriage ($90,000.00 in 1999 for a 9 week inpatient stay). They found her to be a sex addict. I feel today she is a mentally unstable. To her, everything she does is justified. (She has also been in at least 6 law suits that I know of.) Everyone else is to blame for her unhappiness in life. Strange, when the nieces and nephews were small they all called her Crazy Aunt Pat. I think she is a narcissistic sociopath. Scarey.

Have you read anything on this personality disorder? She used to run her CC up to buy items to impress other people in her social circle. My 3rd BIL almost lost a business he had created for 15 years before marrying her. After 4 years now he is happily remarried to a wonderful lady.

I always tell myself that we can't control other people. They cannot control us. We only have control over ourselves.

I think for both you and PB, there is someone out there just waiting to find good people like you two.

Peace,
holiday

Holiday,

Thank you for the vote of confidence. I am hoping that things will start to turn my way soon also. All I can do is control myself at this point. You hit on the same theme my IC has been pounding me on. He even gave me a sheet to read repeatedly about this issue. I have to let it all go and concentrate my energy and focus on my own life rather than looking to fix someone else's.

Crazy Aunt Pat, not something to aspire to is it. The EX's brothers and their issues have given my kids the same sort of outlook on them. The kids love their uncles because they have been there for them their whole lives but they sure don't respect them. I think this is what is eating my daughter up so much. Her mother had lived a model life until her A. Seeing a "good person" make such a bad choice in life is tough to swallow. Watching her live that choice is even harder. I am not sure what the kids perception of all of this is anymore. The kids have so much going on in their lives on their own that I'm not sure this is that big a deal for them anymore. I think they would love to have the family together again but I don't think it is at the top of their priority list anymore. Or at the very least they just don't want to think about it anymore. I am looking to do the same myself soon if I can.

I am at the point in all of this that I wish I had not gone looking for her when I knew she was with him. I think the trauma from that ordeal has made this harder to recover from. I truely wish I could have just sat at home and waited to see what she decided to do knowing I had discovered her secret. I know she probably would have lied and said she was alone and I may have believed her. Denial on my part but I think I would have had less emotional damage to deal with. Accepting the reality of her choice in this the key to recovery for me. She is piloting her own plane and has the controls now. I am no longer her co-pilot helping plot her course in life. Nor am I any influence on her whatsoever. Finding contentment with this and letting go is proving harder for me than I ever comprehended.

It feels good to me just to hear about you H showing you the respect and affection he did. I know it must have made you feel good about it too! There are good people out there for all of us, finding them and then keeping the R strong and alive is the challenge. Sounds like you have a handle on this, so keep it up! It gives the rest of us hope that we can get to a similar place in life again some day.

Hi Holiday and Dukhuntr,

Holiday,

I knew you would be doing something very productive. Although, it is hard when you are doing it, think how nice it will be when all the tile and paint work is done and you get to sit back and admire it.

I am also really happy you are having warm feelings of love for hubby. I can't thnk of anything that would make tile laying more appealing than warm feelings of love.

Dukhuntr,

I vote for letting go too. It sounds like you know exactly what you need to do.. it just is harder doing it than saying it - isn't it. It is helpful to remember this is a one day at a time kind of scenario. Each day hopefully alittle better than the last.

Everyone I think in the end formulates their own remedy for healing. Mine was lots of time at the beach...lots of time with the dog, family, friends .. alittle travel and shoe shopping. Writing the journals really helped too, I can look back at some of the entries and remember just how much I was hurting ... compared to how I feel now.

Even my appetite has returned, for the last four months I really haven't been eating. I had no desire to cook because every thing tasted like sawdust. Yesterday I made a grilled cheese sandwich and it tasted like heaven.

Cheers,

PB

Journal,

A long very busy day, which has culminated in a very bold move. I threw out my sofa - tonight. I gritted my teeth and just did it. Now I am in writhing agony. I loved that sofa.

I have stood in a variety of different furniture stores over the last three years - credit card out attempting to buy a new leather sofa. Every time I actually laid the card on the counter, I would get a vivid image of my dog's hind end hunched in the air, tail wagging fiercely, front paws digging in a blur of speed and energy, ears waggling side to side.

When my dog is happy he digs either in my bed or in my couch. The cushions fly about the room to a rhythmic ripping of fabric.

My sofa was refinished perhaps four years ago.. it looks like it has resided in a frat house for say the last 20 years. It is a tattered shredded gloriously comfortable place to be. The dog and I curl up together to watch TV, the three of us - dog, sofa and me - a symbiotic union of cozy home life.

Next week, two of my friends (who design) are visiting my home. Although I did have a slip cover that shielded visitors from most of the gory horror. I thought I better just get rid of it before I had to face their looks of shocked disbelief - head shaking - This won't do - kind of reaction.

The truth is my dog is very obedient. If I told him not to he would stop digging in the couch. It just that it amuses me so. I love to watch him go for it... My husband never understood the entertainment I derived from watching his nightly attack on the upholstery. Oh well....

So now I will go buy a leather sofa .. that I will slipcover so the dog and I can live on it and when company comes we will whip off the slipcover so that for a few hours - a perfectly intact leather sofa with nary a scratch is on display for visitors. Make sense- not really?

Journal,

Funny, how you can think you are pretty much over something then it turns around and bites you. I find if I stay really busy, and I have as little contact with Mr. Midnight as possible - I don't do too badly. I am a productive functioning person.

Tonight he stopped by with an employee to pick up a big screen TV. I will use my Dad's which is smaller but suitable for the amount of time I watch TV.

I watched him load it up and pick up some tapes and DVDs. The hardest part is saying good by on these occassions. After 25 years of always kissing someone on parting... it feels so awkward to be standing there, three feet apart...giving little waves to each other.

He called me last night - to complain. He had washed his cell phone, locked his keys in the truck and wasn't sleeping well. I lisened patiently wondering what he was feeling.

HIs family continues to call regularly. My MIL wants me to commit to her that I will be there when as she describes it - he comes to his senses. I am non-commital. I don't think he is crazy anymore. I believe he is actually doing what he wants to do, which is something few of us really do in life.

On the plus side, it frees me up to do what I want to do. I just have to discover what that is...

Right now, I think I will watch As Good As It Gets, I have not seen it in awhile and it is one of my favourites. The dog and I have just had a nice roast beef dinner. No sofa yet - so we will be stretching out on a camping air mattress.

I find I really like looking at rooms from views I don't see very often. When I was painting my closets I would sit and look out at the room from inside them. In my office I often get up and sit across the desk in a visitor's chair so I have a fresh perspective. Lying on the floor on my air mattress will give me a slightly different perspective. It can't hurt.

Paradise,

Just imagining the dog attacking a couch does bring a smile and chuckle. My dog likes to attack shoes, ones that are tied to feet and moving preferrably. Imagine a 70LB lab grabbing ahold of your tennis shoe and shaking her head like a great white shark while growling menacingly. My son loves to do this with her and that's a riot to watch. It's when an unsuspecting guest mimics this behavior that the fun really begins! You may want to have two couches from the sound of it.

As for letting go, I seem to have gone thru a life change last week. I was grumpy, irratable and upset all week. I think it finally settled into me that I have to go forward with the assumption she is gone and live for myself. Until then I had always felt like I was waiting for her fog to lift and come running home to me. That is just not going to happen. Even if the fog lifts it not going to happen that way so why live like that?

I still think about her and what has happened much of every day and I hope that starts to clear more soon. For me it's been eight months now of constant thoughts of what if's or how or why. I think my breakthrough on this has been to look back at my marriage with my IC and see the traits in both of us that led to this. Her non-confrontatiional avoidance of telling me anything that would reflect poorly on her or anything that she felt would hurt or upset me. Her issues with entitlement and the inability to accept faults. And really with my own ways in which I developed all of these activities that did not include her, and how I was more of a parent than a husband in regard to bailing her out of her credit card problems.

Understanding yourself and what you could have done better makes you think about the whole picture instead of just the betrayal itself. I know I did some things I should not have and that I was not the model husband. At the same time I know nothing I was doing or not doing entitled her to have an A. I really believe she had a weak moment and let something happen and now is too deep in this to feel she could recover what she had. IC would be a godsend for her but she is just too stubborn and proud to open up and let someone else in on what all has gone on in her mind and with the OM. The problem is that she can't bring herself to believe that I would do anything she wanted to make this work if she would only agree to NC and to MC. Accepting that I can't control her or get her to do any of this lets me feel I can let go now. I can't make her do anything she is not willing to do and I can't shame her or coerce her either. If she wants it she has to do it on her own and all I have to do is decide at that time if I still want the same thing. As you said easier said than done, but I am very close to being there now. I know I would no longer let her walk right back into the house as I would have a month ago. No way , no how.

Well I am taking the kids to Dollar night at the cantina tonight. Dollar margueritas and tacos. Music and drinks and food with the kids, should be a fun evening. Throw a couch pillow at the dog for me tonight.

You both sound very peaceful today...as Martha says, "its a good thing".

You both now have the time to explore the "real" you.
I hope you both will continue to know how special each of you are in God's eyes and of course, in mine too.

As Buddha says...Everything is in the process of changing.

As I always say...There is nothing more consistant than change.

Change is eventually good...it's a good thing.

Peace,

holiday

Journal,

One thing I do miss about Mr. Midnight - is his heartbeat. He is a runner and has a very slow heart beat. At night I could lay my ear against his back and lisen to a reassuring thud dud ..........thud dud...........thud dud. It would slow me down just liseing to it and I would often drift off to sleep to that measured beat. I've tried lisening to the dog's heart beat but his is very fast and he drools on me when I try to get close enough to lisen. Normally these days we sleep back to back. The dog's head on my pillow. I can feel when he falls into deep sleep. His body stiffens for a moment. There is a medical term for it which I forget.

The dog fell asleep while I was reading in bed last night. He was dreaming with his eyes open. Dogs eyes have a film - a sort of a second eyelid - that when this happens really makes them look like devil dogs. His lips were twitching with muffled barks, his legs moved back and forth chasing someone I'm sure.

I think being newly single is hardest late at night. The house is quiet. The bustle of the day, phone calls, activities has abated. One is left alone with one's thoughts and in my case a dog that snores....

Paradise,

I think just being home alone at any time is the hardest part of being "newly single". There are so many reminders of the life you shared with someone else there with you, even if you have cleaned out pictures and other more visible objects. It does get easier and I had to think back to remember what you are feeling because I haven't had that feeling in a month or two.

That's funny, me telling you something to look forward to! After I wrote this, I had that thought come almost instantly to mind. It is different, you have to admit, for me to be telling you something positive to look forward to. I am the one who has been the needy one lately. All negative and dour. I feel free and relieved this week though. I hope it's not just a lull in the mental storm. I am ready for some peace in my life.

The dream the dog was having was of a demented woman chasing after him with a set of tie on antlers and a collar covered in bells. She was singing "Grandma got run over by a Reindeer" and sloshing rum from a large tumbler as she went. I would say he was running from a devilish Mom not imagining he was a devil dog.

Hi Dukhuntr,

LOL, We all have our nightmares, I guess. The dog really doesn't mine the antlers that much. He gets lots of attention when he is wearing them. Some years we go to the local Santa parade and Christmas fair, the dog in full reindeer regalia. He is a big hit with the kiddies.

At night, we have a major play session. The dog has a big basket of toys on the living room rug. What he likes best is for me to sit there and take out each toy one at a time and show them to him. I think it makes him feel toy rich.

Occassionally, when I try to weed out the truly ratty ones, he will retrieve them from the garbage and carry them back over to his basket and drop them in - looking at me sternly. Don't mess with my things Mom!

Cheers,

Paradise

Paradise,

You know I am just ribbing you , right? Your dog lives a life most people would envy I'm sure. I am just in a good mood and I hope to get you into one also. Do you know the words to "Grandma got run over by a Reindeer"? That is an image that has me ROFLMAO. Paradise inebriated and chasing the dog with the antlers spilling her favorite rum the whole time. Think about that and tell me you don't start laughing a little!

Humor and fun have a definite place in our recovery and I am starting to recover my sense of humor. You had best watch out now! I used to spread the ribbing around the office at work and I got it back tenfold. I came in one morning last fall to my office completely covered in tin foil. Everything was covered including individual pieces of paper in my in basket. They even took the switch plate off the wall wrapped it and put it back. Not a crinkle in any of it either. It had to take several people hours to do this. I know it took two of us two hours to take it all down!

I believe Holiday will love the thought of you and the dog I have described and I can hardly wait for her to chime in. Have a great day tomorrow!

Grandma got run over by a reindeer, coming home from our house Christmas Eve, you might say there's no such thing as Santa...but as for me and Grandpa we believe!

I love that song. My kids and I used to sing it all the time (still do).

All is well. Going to tile more today (don't you get sick of hearing about it?...I get sick of laying the darn stuff.)

I am sorry about your "new single" lives. But I have a feeling something special is coming each of your ways.

holiday

Hey Tile Girl,

Tell me you at least got a good chuckle out of envisioning paradise, the song and the dog. It would be so out of character for her I thought it was hysterical.

Special for me would be to be able to feel content and satisfied I did the best I could to make things work. I am so close to being there it bugs me now when I go a step backward. It's because I recognize it now for what it is, a waste of emotion and effort on my part. If it is going to happen now it's not going to be because of anything I did or did not do, it's going to be her that does it. I just have to live like it's a new beginning for me and look ahead instead of over my shoulder at what she is doing. I don't think I have to learn to dislike her or write her off completely in my future. I just can't go on pining away over her and holding on to the hurts she has laid on me.

Have fun with the tile and grout and don't forget to get the best sealer you can to protect your hard work. Have a nice weekend!

Journal,

The dog and I are exhausted. We had dinner with friends tonight and then went Christmas shopping. His taste never falters, but my feet got sore.

I tried on some clothes tonight. I ended up buying the same skirt I bought in the summer just in black. I have consistent taste. The dog is an interested companion on such occasions, although he does cast a curious eye under the doors of other women's changerooms. Alittle pair of twinkling male eyes suddenly appearing out of nowhere - can startle the unsuspecting.

Later, we curled up together to watch Briget Jones - The Edge of Reason tonight. It is funny funny movie. The dog got two helping of beef soup kibble tonight - to celebrate the commencement of the weekend. While I sipped a cuba libre.

Friday nights are tad more peaceful these days. I still miss the dinner making ritual of chatting while chopping, cooking etc. Often now, microwave popcorn is my entree of choice. Oddly I find when I shop I still buy Mr. Midnight's favourite treats. Somehow they end in my cart without me noticing it.

Many of the little rituals of married life stay with you somehow...

Paradise and Holiday,

I am totally blasted as I write this, Don't know why just seemed like the thing to do tonight! Made a pass at a woman at the bar we frequent and pissed her off totally. Not smart but I at least know it. Is it something about being a man in a predominately male bar that turns you into an A******? I didn't think we said anything bad she just got up and said she was sick of us and left.

Alcohol is not a proper outlet for me right now! I need to stay sober and lucid. I hope you both had a good day and I will talk to you both on Monday. Going to reduce the bunny population in a friends alfalfa field tomorrow. Good night!

Ewww, DH you sound like my BIL...he takes care of the "prairrie dog" pop every year...yuck.

Drinking to the point of perversion in the bar you "frequent" doesn't sound like a good thing (go to another bar for that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

You probably just weren't yourself and had you been she probably would have loved to chat with you. But, basically, I believe girls in bars aren't the kind of girls that you need right now.

We should both be at PB's house sippin cuba libre's with her and letting her chop and cook to her heart's delight just for us!

Is a cuba libre a rum drink. I think I have heard of that...sounds delish!

Finished the tile (minus the kitchen which is another 300 sq ft after company leaves next week). Too much to do and not enough time, especially with 3 guests coming and staying 5 days.

I think H and I will hit a movie tonight. I haven't been out (other than to the grocery store or the local hardware store) in over a week.

Have a nice Saturday evening....and PB, I love Bridget movies too. Have you viewed the English movies like Pride and Prejudice? Or Emma? Or any movie with Hugh Grant or Colin (my favorite) Firth?

holiday

Hey Holiday,

I would be happy to chop and cook for you. It is so much more fun to cook for other people. I really enjoy entertaining. However, when it is just me - I am inclined to eat whatever is handy while standing over the sink. Tuna on a cracker anyone?

I am a big Jane Austen fan - she was so observant of people -she understood them in all their humanity. In particular, I believe she just nails down what it is like to be female. For men trying to understand the fairer sex, there can be no better primer. When visiting England a few years back and I stayed in Bath and sat in the Assembly Room ballroom admiring the two enormous exquisite chandeliers she would have danced under. I squinted my eyes trying to see/imagine them dance gracefully, moving to and fro across the floor.

I have all the Austen movies in their various editions. The only book she wrote that hasn't been made into a movie was Lady Susan. I loved Sense and Sensibility with Emma Thompson and Pride Prejudice with Colin Firth - the pond scene - yummy! Persuasion is very touching, it was her last book, and then of course Emma with the marvelous Gwyneth! Just great entertainment where no one is shot and the scenery is so beautifully detailed. I can watch them again and again. They calm me.

I was out at a wine tasting tonight. Mr. Midnight has the dog. It seems quiet here without him. Oddly, with the dog in tow, I still feel as though I am part of a couple. Without him - I am definitely solo. My three friends and I go back some twenty years. I am doing an album just of our photos over the years - so many great memories together.

When Mr. Midnight dropped in for the dog with 15 minutes notice, I was on way out and just smiled and kept going. It still feels weird to me. It is like my husband has disappeared. There is walking taiking body that looks like him - but it is not the same man - at all. It is hard to believe that you could be best friends with someone for close to 31 years and that their personna could just vanish!. If he had been lost skiing in some crevasse or sailing, I would be marshalling all of our resources to find him again. With this, I just work every day to accept it without acrimony.

You are tile liberated now! Way to go girl, I will be following your brave example soon. I am trying to find a tile laying seminar near me. Home Depot is one of my favourite stores right now. They have classes and seminars! I lisen with rapt attention.

I have ambition to replace the tile in my foyer, install new cabinet doors in the kitchen and perhaps countertops - plus I think I will paint just about everything. A complete change of decor, it will keep me busy at night.

Although the dog is not impressed by painting or housework.. he appears not to understand the merit of either when we could be at the beach instead! He lies on the marble floor, head on his paws, with sad reproachful eyes that follow me about the room. Occasionally there is a sigh and a very audible huff!

I hope you enjoy your date with hubby... and have lots more warm feelings of love...

Cheers,

PB

Journal,

I washed out my Dad's toolbox, this afternoon. Old screwdrivers, pliers, many things I don't know the name or use of... but which I am determined to learn about.

I had a little cry. I miss him. I know I will continue to miss him every day. It is incredibly lucky though to have had someone in your life for so long who could consistently understand you and always wisely give you what you needed - to grow. With Dad it was usually just a question.. a way to subtly shift your thoughts to a more open balanced outlook.

Even now as I neatly put back each item.. he is giving me what I need. The tools to improve my circumstance, what more could I ask for.

It has been a lazy day.. lying about reading most of the morning. Harry Potter and a Goblet of Fire by J.K. Rowling for a second time before I go to the movie! Now that is a great story - a single mom on assistance who wrote in a tea shop during the day so she had only to pay for heat in the evenings when her daughter was home. Who is now richer than the Queen of England! And alternately the Wisdom of Forgiveness by the Dalai Lama and Victor Chan, a great wise book that is actually quite entertaining.

Soon I will get ready to go out to a friend's for dinner. She is a 45 year old dentistry professor, who today for the first time in her life is cooking a chicken! I have had frequent phone calls for instruction. Every time she calls I laugh when I see her number displayed but I am carefully polite and helpful. I know I will have a hard time not giggling during dinner...

Hi guys,

Made it back from the barren wastelands of Northern Nevada with most of my brain cells intact. It turns out there was a birtday party this weekend at the ranch for one of our friends. Must have been 15 people up there in all manner of trailers and campers. Had a huge bon-fire and drank well into the night. I can honestly say I did not think of the EX or any of the usual garbage until late this afternoon on the trip home. What a nice change. It may have been because of all the things going on and all of the different people involved, all I know is I enjoyed every minute of it. I managed to stay semi-sober the whole trip too!

We cut up and vacuume wrapped 5 lambs today before we came home. The ranch is an actulal working ranch running several thousand sheep and almost as many cattle. The owner is the fourth or fifth generation to be running the place. He was a fraternity brother of ours and is just a simple hard working rancher and as good a man as you could ever want to meet. His wife is just as nice and a city girl who chose the life and has adapted wonderfully to it. We bought the lambs from him and he helped us cut them up( and helped drink the beer).

I may need help with recipies on some of the cuts, when you buy the whole lamb you get some things you would not normally buy. Shoulder roasts for example. I know about the chops and legs, but a lamb shoulder? How about the riblets?

Holiday -

Good job on the tile! Is H duly impressed? I would be.
I hope you had a good night at the movies.

Paradise-

I know what you mean about cooking. It just seems a waste to go to all of that trouble for yourself. Grabbing something easy and fast makes more sense for me too. Cold cuts and a handful of nuts will do nicely when all else seems like too much work. Now with a whole lamb in the freezer I may have to breakdown and figure out some new and more involved cooking skills.

Have a good night!

No, no no you two!
Always make something special for yourselves especially at dinner time. And never eat over that sink PB! If you make too much, save it for lunch the next day.

We had a nice time at the movies and our daughter came along. We went to see, PB...Harry Potter. Very good movie, but my daughter always tells me the books are much more powerful (she is my little bookworm).

Glad to hear you remained semi sober DH...and had a great time. Hope to hear of some great dinners with you lamb!

We drove to Bullhead City yesterday afternoon for a pre Thanksgiving dinner with my niece and nephew (and x SIL whom I still love very much). Was wonderful.

I hope you two have a wonderful Monday. I am off for my daily jog and then hitting the sewing machine for a day of catch up.
Peace,
holiday

Hey Guys,

I have come to the conclusion that the hardest thing for me to deal with now is the connection I used to share with the EX. If I was having a bad day or just felt like talking I always had her to turn to. Now you guys seem to be where I turn because friends get sick of hearing your woes and just have a full plate of their own to deal with.

Not that I mind talking to you but I do feel this loss the most right now. Over 28 years of building this trust and friendship you come to rely them instinctly and don't realize how much value you placed on this connection until it is no longer there to turn to. I am being completely dark with her now to try and keep some feeling alive for her deep down inside. As you both have told me contact with her is still toxic for me and I do seem to get better if I don't see her, hear about her, or talk to her in any way.

I fight the urge constantly to quiz the kids about how she is doing or what she is up to now. Paradise, I don't know how you can be so closely associated with Mr. Midnight and keep your composure as you do. Speaks volumns about your resolve and personal strength. I think I would be completely off my rocker by now in your sich. All of that leads me to believe that I really will look for that type of relationship again someday. I know if I find someone to trust and connect with again, I will be much more careful to guard this trust and make sure they put the same value on this as I do.

Eibrab- you have been thru the same thing, is this something you are missing too? I just can't seem to feel completely relaxed and confident in myself yet. A sure sign for me I should not be out looking for anyone new in my life yet. And when I do I am afraid I will be so gunshy about trust I will probably run off someone who could have been that friend and companion.

Starting to ramble here so I will get back to work and be productive again instead of a space cadet.

Hi Dukhuntr,

I am not so sure about my resolve and strength. I was in the process of unloading my car just now and the OW walked around me several times... trying to start up a conversation. I ignored her completely.

Yet she still made me so angry I am shaking. It was all I could do to move my stuff and get out of her way before I really lost it. A couple of our other neighbours were standing there - an audience so to speak.

What's worse Mr. Midnight made off yesterday with my emergency breakage item. I have nothing of meaning of his to break right now... and boy do I need to break something.

Frankly, I think I should move sooner rather than later. I really can't take much more humiliation. I think I am making progress and then I am reduced to a shaking crying bundle of rage in probably under 5 minutes.

I know it is illogical. I know this whole situation is predicated on a choice Mr. Midnights made. However, it is just hellish to live day to day and never know when you are going to have your nose rubbed in it.

````````````````````````````````

I actually dug out Mr. Midnight's wedding band, he stopped wearing it probably 10 years into our marriage because it caught on something and almost caused an accident. I was contemplating flushing it down the toilet.

I am calmer now. I can not stay really mad for that long. It is just exhausting. I did not flush Mr. Midnight's ring down the toilet.

The moments where I am so close to completely losing it yet manage to hold onto my composure - are small victories. The speed with which I can shed the anger, the hurt and return to a balanced outlook shows my progress I thnk. This is just so tough at moments.

The buddists believe that our enemies teach/benefit us much more than our friends. Learning to be compassionate towards someone who for whatever reason means you harm suggests that you are grasping the big picture - which is that we are all interdependent - sort of one canvass. As much as I would like to smudge her portion, instead I have to discipline my self to be understanding of her particular problems. By doing so, I gain big time and immediately, because that understanding will rid me of emotions that harm only me and no one else.

Sorry for the rant... I'm off to make a cup of tea... and coax the dog out of the bedroom. He doesn't see Mom that mad very often.

PB

Paradise,

You have absolutely nothing to be humiliated about. What she did only proved to your other friends what kind of person she really is. I'm proud of you! I'd be willing to bet the other friends are too. They can see for themselves what she was doing and I'm sure they were appalled and afraid of what she was going to do next. You have taken the high road in all of this so keep your head up and held high. She's the one with all of the bad karma and moral ambiguity going thru her head.

I've been in your shoes and did not handle it anywhere near as well as you remember. I'm the one poking fingers into chests and where did it get me? Nowhere fast, thats where. Let this get back to Mr. Midnight and I think even he would be floored by this and not too happy about it either. Let the friends do the talking for you. Be your usual poised and confident self. Get on the bike and go for a long ride on the trainer, all of the anger will disapate faster. Even better go put the dog thru ****** again and get him dressed up in a new holiday outfit. Or you could be really evil and sign the OW up in every online porn site you could find tonight and sit back to see how she likes all of her new mail. Then let her figure out how she got signed up for all of this. I don't believe she would ever think of you doing something like this. More like Mr. Midnight doing some swinging bachelor research on her computer!

I know it sounds easy for me to say but I am speaking from experience. EX and her freedom tour of the town with OM while we were still married felt like a nose rub too. Having him stare at me from across a parking lot while EX pushed me away to protect him in front of my friends was exactly the same feeling. I wish I could have done as you did and ignore the whole messy scene and gone home without the big confrontation that ensued.

I will be home all night checking back to see if you want to talk some more. I wish only the best for you and I hope you are okay.

Hi Dukhuntr,

I have opted for tea and belgium truffles - so far four - my nomal ration for a week. I may stop counting.

I am lisening to a very mellow Norah Jones album - feels like home. It is an odd life isn't it. I find posting here helps immensely sometimes because I am open about how I feel. Without the normal reserve I have with anyone other than my closest friends. I simply would not talk about this with very many people. There must be a fair amount of Brit residue in my DNA.

Thanks for lisening...

Dogs are so sensitive. I brought in my bags, stomped about the kitchen... didn't actually swear or anything..although I did slam some cupboard doors ... and the dog heads off to hide in the bedroom. He has come out, had dinner and is now sitting on my feet.

You know walking around another human being several times with a large smile is hardly criminal. Under the circumstances, it is perhaps insensitive. What is bad behaviour I guess, is Mr. Midnight's choice to create and leave me with this mess. I have no doubt he will move on from this OW to someone new and quite likely younger still.

I think everyone has a right to end relationships if they don't meet your needs, but to end it by chasing after one of your wife's friends is just tacky. I think I will be able to banish the anger and the hurt but the disappointment I believe will linger.

Cheers,

PB

Hi paradise,

The joke may be that I have no idea what a truffle is! Is it animal, vegtable or pastry? You can see my redneck showing here can't you? Any joke I have heard recently comes from a construction company environment and is not suitable for this site. I have a very poor memory for jokes anyway and always screw them up. The only one that has stuck with me recently is one about a blonde receptionist. It stays with me because of the resemblence to EX. It goes like this:
Q- How can you tell your blonde receptionist is having a bad day?

A- She has a tampon behind her ear and her pencil is missing!

I love that one! I even asked EX if she had lost her pencil recently during a conversation. Of course she didn't get it but I got a chuckle out of it. Strange how we can get a jolly out of something so stupid. As I said earlier it is easier to talk here than with anyone else. They have nothing to compare the depth of our hurts to unless they themselves have been in this sich. My closest friend recently, the one who takes me to the ranch, has been thru this, and he has been my biggest supporter. He is keenly aware of how hard this hits you and how low you can get. I have been to the Giants games with him, hunting several times and to his home at least once a week since D-Day. I hadn't seen him this much in the last ten years combined. Goes to show that there are good people out there that have been thru this and want to see you make it too. He is hapily married to a second wife that is a wonderful woman. The coinsidence there is that she went to school with Ex and I. She has been right there for me too.

So what is a truffle?

Hi Dukhuntr,

Chocolate! Very very good chocolate. Oh the term can also mean a kind of mushroom considered a delicacy.

I was driving in the country tonight on some very dark roads. When a bunny ran in front of my car. I braked and slowed to a crawl behind him/her (I can't tell with bunnies from a distance). It ran in front for quite a while, my headlights highlighting its fluffy white tail. When it finally darted away into a field ... I thought of your weekend ... lucky bunny.

You're right. There are times in life where our friends really come through for us. I think we have to come through for us too. It is a process all right...

I am trying to think of something funny that will make us both laugh. Give me a moment...

Cheers,

PB

Paradise,

I got a laugh just from you last post! I imagined you talking to the bunny in Elmer Fudd's voice telling him to be verrry carefulll you waskkally wabbitt.

Chocolate is good and on a night like tonight calories are non-existent. Your girlish figure will not be affected by these calories in the least. Anger and emotions will burn all the calories, so enjoy them without guilt!

P.S. - We don't shoot the cottontail rabbits unless we are planning a meal out of them. They are really good eating bunnies. We only shoot the jackrabbits with the big ears and long legs that breed like mice and become a vermin to farmers trying to make a living off the land. Plus they are the main food source for Nevada's coyotes that also take a heavy toll on our friends lambs during the spring when the ewes are birthing. Reducing the food reduces the coyotes for next year at the same time.

Hi Dukhuntr,

When I was younger, I had a gift for mischief. When I was probably around 7 or 8. I put a very large cricket up my Dad's pant leg when he wasn't looking. When it started to move about - he promptly jumped out of his pants.

Unfortunately, at that exact moment, my Mom was having her entire ladies church group in for tea. She was really mad at me for a very long time. My Dad thought it was pretty hysterical.

I can still remember my Dad's panicked dance about in his underwear and the shocked looks on all those women's faces.

I hope this makes you smile. I am going to have a quick bath and go to bed. Being so mad has just completely tuckered me out.

Cheers

PB

P.S. I know what you mean about the connection though... so many shared moments.. shared emotions ... shared thoughts.. it is like a woven mesh of joined existence.

Paradise,

I knew there was a hint of deviltry in you. I bet you have been at the keyboard all night registering OW in all manner of sites. Rest well and remember you are the only one in this mess with Midnight and OW that has a clear conscience. Allow youself some peace with that thought and I will be checking in on you tomorrow.

Journal,

I had some spare time this afternoon - so I have been reading various threads on this site. There are remarkable stories here - testiments to the strength and adaptability of the human spirit. Women raising their husbands - OCs - tales of hope and forgiveness.

Couples overcoming enormous challenges to stay together. I do believe staying together is the harder option. I am barely coping with the little contact I have with Mr. Midnight - I can only imagine how difficult it would be to try to start at square one again.

I am ashamed of myself for getting so upset last night. As one very wise friend said to me this afternoon. You have no business allowing someone else to poison your good nature. She is absolutely right of course. I either I have to move or I have to be able to ignore the OW on all levels -easier said than done.

Ultimately, it is his decision not hers that caused the mess. I need a reality check I think.

Paradise,

I've been waiting to see if you would be here today. I hear that you have regained your composure and you sound much better!

What is there for you to be ashamed about? Did you do something other than be victimized by the OW? Yes you let her get into your nuggett but who in this world could have been strong enough to go thru that and not get upset or angry. The Dali Llama himself would have had anxiety over this himself. Cut yourself some slack here and get back on track. It's only a small step back down a long trail of success you have achieved. We all live in reality and you are the last person in need of a check up. You have already seen this for what it was. A cheap shot at you from the OW, out of spite. Or is it out of frustration that you have been such a model of consistency and resolution? Living her life of immorality and day to day stress has to have taken a toll by now. Maybe you have seen the first sign of weakness on her part.

Don't let her change a thing in you or your dealings with Mr. Midnight. She is a bump in the road for both of you waiting to get run over one way or another. You have way too much going for you to let her affect how you live your life from now on. Maybe you should hit the road again soon for another recharge in attitude. Tahoe is beautiful right now and I will give you the VIP tour anytime you want. I owe it to your for educating me on what it is to be a real woman and for keeping me sane and out of jail these past few weeks we have been talking. Weeks, or months now? I will have to look back. It seems like weeks doesn't it?
All I know is I have come to value your outlook on A's and life in general. It would hurt me to no end to hear that OW could do anything to dampen your spirit or change the outlook you have on your life and what is to come for you.

Stay strong and focused, you are the rock Mr. Midnight and OW are spinning aroud. Don't let them get you to spinning too!

Dukhunter..

I feel so unqualified to answer your question as to whether or not I feel the same as yourself and Paradise. I read here every day for the inspiration that the two of you and Holiday offer. I am very much the same in so many ways, but also very different in the turn of my life's events.

I never truly shared my story here. I only sought refuge with a small group of people who I think would be the finest choice to find myself on a deserted island with. I wish life's distances would allow me to hunt a duck with you, lay some tile with Holiday and most of all walk the beaches with Paradise. The shorelines are my passion. I would wish to retire to Hawaii and run a small charter fishing boat for the great marlin or rent rooms in small cottages off the coast of Nova Scotia. I did some work outside of Halifax once. That is God's design there. But, I dwell in a four-season state and today I was freezing..

In a nutshell..may I share ?

I married the first man to hold my hand. He is a bit older and a very different personality than I... very powerful in his mannerisms and confident to the extreme.

After many years of a very one-sided marriage, we parted briefly. My split from my H was similar to your's Duk. Very fast and trainwreck-like (said with the utmost of respect). We farm together, and I have my own sideline business of the horse "thing", so I never went far. We continued to see each other consistantly. We have two dear children, a daughter 13, and a son 9.

At a point where it seemed to work for both of us, God took my hand and brought about the most amazing of reconciliations. If you had told me that I would be back amongst a life where I was a "hired-hand" and completely bowled over on a daily basis, I would not have believed you.

And here I am . :-) Not totally a bad thing..

During the reconciliation, my H started an A with a local married woman. A very loud, brazen, immature sort. I failed to see it for what it was worth until it was at a full-blown war that got very ugly in my attempts to save my family. God was with me. He gave me strengths to endure what I don't feel any human being could go through on their own.

After some much deserved family time in Hawaii, my H sat me down at a point where I truly felt the affair had been over for almost a year and shared with me that he had failed both myself and my children and that in a short "comeback" attempt from this OW, he found himself facing me and telling me that this OW was at the time 5 months pregnant.

Granted, she was and continues to be married.

This is my story. The OW's H and I became friends during the affair but do not have contact now. It seems the OW pulled every trick she could to win the "prize" (said lightly in Paradise fashion) and after seeing that I would stand by my H's side, she fashioned a perfect marraige once again with her H.

The tragedy continues in that this woman has a severly handicapped child and was told to never have another. And she chose to do this. I do believe it is a choice... there are measures that even cheaters can take.

DNA was done, my H carries this child on his health insurance as his "part". I don't know what comes next. There is supposedly no contact with any parties. I have reason to believe this OC is handicapped as well. I'm not sure how my prayers in this have been answered...but I have faith that God knows what he is doing.

You ask how I feel ? My H is a better man. He is very different to the kids and I. I for once feel like this man truly loves me..I, however, feel a bit lost.

I hope that I fashion myself after Paradise. I pride myself in maintaining class and dignity and I'll be darned if I ever let my outward appearance reflect the inside. I suffer in my own mind constantly. I am like you all here...Constantly searching.

Is he here because he wants to be ? Is he nice to ME..or to the idea that another human being would go through such evilness to stand by his side.

What will come of this all ? What do the folks in this small town think of me?

The month before this child was born, I was featured in a national magazine for my profession in a wonderfully written article that should have had me soaring to new heights.. What did I do? The same thing I have done in battling this A for almost two years now... I hid. I ran from the phone calls, I returned none of them.. I let others dig me a hole.

I want out of that hole. I may be happy now, but funny thing, I'm not certain of it...like you, Dukhunter. We are where we are in our lives... Is it so bad?

God Bless each of you..

Eibrab

PS through my whole ordeal, I never stooped to any undesireable levels.. Paradise, I am so proud of your demeanor in your "walk-around" yesterday. She isn't worth your time..and I'd advice you not to tell Mr. Midnight. He would not believe the words from you... His finding out her true self in other ways will come back ten-fold in gracious rewards towards you in his eventual returning to his senses.

Hi Eibrab,

Your story is poignant, sad, full of pain, loss and surprisingly beautiful and hopeful... because your marriage made it through the fire. With faith and your considerable strength I believe you will find it worth the sacrifice in the long haul.

On a positive note, just think when you are wheeling hubby around in the nursing home - you can prop him in the corner, with your cups of tea in front of you and say: "Dear what was her name?".

I am impressed with you more than I can say. You should be proud of yourself. I can well imagine what small town life must have been like when that kind of horrid little drama is underway. Everyone feels so sorry for you. Do you not just hate that?

I know there is a lot of pain associated with the OW forming a permanent linkage in your life with the birth of a child. I've had bent out of shape thoughts about whether or not I would be able to handle that very well. My OW confided in me once that in her next relationship she planned to get pregnant - no matter what. Then I was gobsmacked by the truth that it is evil to want to wish away some one out of existence. I am not sure I would be able to face it as you have done.

I found this summer the beach was my salvation. It just seems to heal me everyday. Now with the weather turned cold it is harder to spend the same amount of time there - I miss it very badly.

From everyone I know who is horsy, they are animals which provide excellent company. I like that thought. I like to think of you on your ranch amidst the excellent company of many animals who adore you....

You are in my prayers,

Cheers

PB

Eibrab,

Wow! You need to chime in more often and talk to us about how to cope because you have been thru a Katrina sized storm and come thru batttered and bruised but intact.

I'm not sure why you have doubts about what other people think of you because you have done what we all wish we could accomplish. You have earned the trust and respect of your H and kept your family together. If the other people in your town are like me they too will see the courage, honesty and determination you have shown and admire you, not look down on you. Sounds like you live in a rural area where these traits are valued and you have exhibited all of them in bundles. In my opinion this is where you turned the tide with your H. He sounds like a man who makes you earn his respect. Once you earned this he knows what he could have lost and is placing a much higher value on your R. I work in the construction industry as a controller. I have either worked for or known several men cut from the same cloth as your H. I have learned never to tell them they need to do anything, you simply suggest what you believe is a good course of action and let them mull it over. They make all of their own decisions. Once you have earned their respect they will stand by you and support you even when they think you may be wrong. You are there with your H.

As for feeling confident and secure about yourself you need to let yourself shine in the limelight a little. You have earned this, both in you personal life and thru your work. Bask in the attention from H and from other sources such as the publication. Pride is okay in small and measured doses and you have much to be proud of. If you ever come to Nevada I would gladly take you and the H duck hunting or anywhere else you wanted to go.

Thanks for thinking of my ramblings as inspirational, I know those thoughts are mainly for Paradise and Holiday but to be included with that company feels good to me. I come mainly to vent and seek a calming and more spiritual outlook on life and they provide it. You have been very supportive yourself so keep posting, you have a wealth of experience and understanding to offer. Someday we will all again feel confident and relaxed in our own lives no matter how it turns out with our current or former spouses. Talking here to good people like you, Paradise and Holiday will only help us get there sooner.

Journal,

I have a nice view from my desk, tonight there is a half moon hanging in an inky black sky. It is quiet here. The air is cold enough to leave your face stinging if you are out walking long.

I am reluctant to go to bed, although really tired. I don't think I slept last night.

I have been reading Eibrab's last post several times through...thinking it really is amazing what an open heart can accomplish; keeping a family whole, a business intact, a marriage together. Her story is powerfully insipiring.

A marriage is really a marvelous idea when you think about it. It is a ready exchange of emotion, understanding, love, honesty - founded on the recognition that the other person is so important that you want to spend your most precious resource with them - your time.

In Shall We Dance, there is quote about the purpose of marriage is so there is someone to witness your life. I think it is more than that, it is so there is someone to share/create a life with.

Yesterday, Mr. Midnight told me I was still the person he cared most about in the world. I told him actions speak much louder than words. It must be horribly confusing to be the WS. I don't envy them.

My Dad used to say that it is an art deciding what to view as important in life. Should someone's mistake define them forever? Will I live the rest of my life - thinking of a man I use to love profoundly - as Mr. Midnight? Ouch!

On the plus side, it is probably much more pleasant to the ear, than many other names/descriptions I have strung together in my mind over the last four months. say for example - lying, fox faced tweasle - ( a cross between twit and weasle)!

I would say his major card in the hole right now is that the dog still really loves him. He has been talking about a cute neighbour's little wheaten terrier alot though. If he blows it with the dog ... yowser!

Eibrab and Paradise, you are both truly very classy ladies.

E- I am glad your H is treating you kindly these days. I know you must be wondering when the rug is going to be yanked out from under you again, it's only natural. You probably have a little PTSD going on.

P- I'm sure your H still loves you. I definitely think this man is going thru a mid life crisis and felt an overpowering urge to see what else is out there. I doubt there is much you could have done to keep him from doing what he is doing. I still think someday he will look back and regret it, deeply.


Anyway, with that said, I hope you both have a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Holiday, Paradise, Eibrab, and evryone else,

I am off with Mom and Dad to my brothers home in Oregon for the Holiday. I hope all of you have a safe and happy Thanksgiving. Wish me luck, Dad's eyesight ain't what it used to be and he refuses to let anyone else do the driving. 6 hours of hiding my head in a pillow to follow soon.

You all will be in my thoughts on this day of thanks.