Had1...

I am sorry for your pain, as well. Please read over the discussions on all of the topics. You would be amazed at how many people go throught this, and reading other's stories truly helps.

Eibrab

Paradise and Dukhunter...

For the past month or so, he has been getting phone calls that he would not answer. My son defied him to answer on one such occasion, and he was ignored.

This hurts the children even more.

I have never been opposed to legal workings, where all contact was in the open. I don't understand the "sneaking".

Of course, it has been twisted back on me.

I truly feel that MOW has gotten bored and is using drama again...such as "her H never wanted to be a father to this child.." to start a guilt trip.

I must say..that with all I have to do here, that I have simply been zapped of any energy. I am so tired of lies and deceit. I spoke before of my ill feelings for this MOW. I am so tired of being consumed with negativity within myself.

Truth be told.. it is all within myself.

Not real sure what to do. H, here, is the sort of man that Duk originally pegged. The all powerful. I wonder why this situation has never embarrassed him ...

Thank you for listening..

Eibrab

DukHunter...

Just to ease your mind... Pettitte, Oswalt AND Clemens are currently Astros.

Though we must admit Jeter isn't so bad.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Eibrab

Eibrab,

He is embarrassed I'm sure. That is what makes him irritable and edgy. He thinks he can be all things to everyone still. We men are like that, in control in our own minds at all times until something or someone can shake us to that core. Mine got shook hard and in a hurry. From the sound of it his really hasn't felt the shake yet.

You have done this drill before and you can do it again. All I would bet he is doing is responding to a "guilt trip" as you described it. He feels obligated by the OC. I would think less of him if he didn't. I know this is tough but I think you need to sit down with him and talk about how he can shoulder his responsibility to the OC and still keep your faith in him intact. There has to be a common ground for both of you somewhere in the middle. A place where he can be in contact with MOW and the OC and as long as he keeps you in the loop on what he is doing you are okay with it too. Right now he's taking the easy way out and hiding his contact. Not a very trust building way to go about this for sure.

I try to put myself in his shoes and because I don't know him it is a lot easier for me to imagine what he is dealing with. He has reacted much like I probably would have. The only difference now is I have been on your side of the fence and know how importantit is to talk this stuff out beforhand and how important trust building is for a BS in this situation. Talk to the man! Explain how it makes you feel to be kept in the dark.

All of the players you seem to be enthralled with would look better in a Giants uniform! God knows we need the pitching!

Eibrab,

I am sorry, I took your earlier post as meaning that H had renewed his attentions to the MOW and was asking you to leave.

If he is trying to repel her attempts to renew contact it is a completely different picture. I wouldn't be as harsh. Sorry for the critical comments. I agree with Duk, the OC would make anyone feel guilty and his feeling responsible should not be discouraged. He is responsible.

Yet surely by now, he should realize that contact with her without your knowledge is destructive. I think the Harley's have this nailed. No contact whatsoever. If there are OC issues then alas I think you should be handling them - not him. As painful as that might be, it will be better than allowing a deluded MOW back into your lives.

Still sending you strong thoughts...

PB

PB,

Don't you ever sleep????? You were up all night weren't you. Thanks for the reply. I have not seen or heard from the EX since the threatening e-mail at the end of March. I don't want to see her and I think I finally got that across to her. I just want to stop thinking about her and what happened entirely. I know it's not possible but it's driving me nuts lately. Whenever I am not actively involved in something or with other people my mind goes right back to that.

I have been keeping myself so busy with going and doing things I haven't thought about it much until I get home and try to relax and here it comes again. I'm wearing myself ragged running away from the thinking. In other words I'm a weak minded idiot with OCD for sure!

Hey Dukhuntr,

I find some nights, I wake up in the middle of night, sure something is wrong. I get up and walk around for a bit, and it takes some time for me to settle down.

Normally, I love to sleep.

Letting go, is very difficult when you have been together so long. I know how hard it is.

I am glad you have steered clear of both your wife and her new beau. It is what you really need to do. Like anything the pain and sense of loss and all the circle thinking will pass. At some point, you will look back with fondness on the years you were married and look forward with happy anticipation of being married for many more years to some one new and wonderful.

Enjoy the fishing!

PB

Hi Eibrab,

Sitting here, just before bed, thinking of you and how difficult your situation is. I can well imagine how tiring the whole thing must be.

Negative feelings are natural in your circumstance, hate, anger, distrust, jealousy: the entire gamut easily springs from betrayal.

Letting go sometimes happens - simply because you are really tired of how something makes you feel. Naught to do with forgiveness and everything to do with the logistics of performing your everyday tasks.

Somewhere, sometime, your clever little brain is going to let it all go - so that it can focus on the important tasks - like developing an incredibly detailed understanding of the merits and drawbacks of all those baseball players.

Wishing you and yours happy...

PB

PB...

I understand... what you write is my wish.

It is so hard with this type of MOW. She seems to have a sense of entitlement that I cannot overcome.

Thank you so much for caring,

Eibrab

((( Eibrab )))

I don't have the words or the wisdom to help you.

PB and Duk do... please feel comfort in their friendship.

Sending prayers and positive thoughts your way.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Carnation

Carnation...

I believe in prayer. I believe I am "here" for a reason.

I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Eibrab

Journal,

I am waking up happy these days. Time does heal all wounds.

It is a hot sunny Canada Day weekend. I have always spent this holiday up north surrounded by family, cooking for 12 to 16 and laughing a lot.

I find I am just as happy being in the city. Blue and I woke up early. We went out for coffee, read the New York Times – very civilized and peaceful.

The remainder of the day was devoted to repainting a bathroom. I have been going through my home gradually making changing, trying for a fresh different look.

Tonight I am booked to go to a drive in with a girl friend and the dogs. I sit with Blue in the backseat. She sits with Spunky in the front seat. Double dog dating… you gotta love it!

Eibrab, I pray for you daily. Sometimes it is only a picture of the future I create in my head of your entire family intact, happily connected, everyone being respectful and honest with each other. Everything starts with a thought….

This was posted by Scout over at forty sixty. It is a worthwhile read ....

Hope for Couples in Crisis

by James C. Dobson, Ph.D.

Nothing is more inspirational than the uniting of two unique and divergent personalities in a marital commitment that will last for a lifetime, with God’s help.

Who can comprehend this mysterious bonding that enables a man and woman to withstand the many storms of life and remain best friends to the end of their lives together? This phenomenon is so remarkable that the Apostle Paul, under divine inspiration, chose it to symbolize the unfathomable bond of love between Jesus Christ and His bride, the church. We could spend a month or two just thinking about the implications of that wonderful analogy.

Unfortunately, a depressing number of today’s marriages end on a less inspirational note. Indeed, Western nations are witnessing a continuing epidemic of dysfunctional relationships. A recent study done by sociologists at Rutgers University concluded that the institution of marriage itself appears to be dying.1 I shudder to contemplate what life will be like (and how children will suffer) if the researchers prove to be right!

The agony inflicted by divorce cannot be overstated. It was this tragic situation that led me to write Love Must Be Tough, which continues to be one of my most popular books. It addresses not only marriages in distress, but concepts that will strengthen less troubled relationships. Let me focus my comments this month on the most important among them.

The standard approach to marriage counseling is to teach husbands and wives how to revitalize unhealthy relationships and help them work through their conflicts. Unfortunately, such advice assumes that both parties are equally motivated to work on their problems. That is rarely the case. Typically, when a marriage is unraveling, there is one partner who is less concerned about the prospect of divorce, while the other is terrified by it. At its worse, as in cases of infidelity, the drifting member often has little desire to engage in counseling, except perhaps as a pretense to lessen guilt or criticism. He or she may have decided already that the relationship is over. It has been my observation that the way the committed partner responds at that vital juncture will determine whether the marriage will survive or succumb. I’ll explain why in a moment.

Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one’s life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a “stranger”… a competitor ... a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe.

If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage.

Let’s look for a moment at the other half of the relationship — focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface.

Long before any decision is made to “fool around” or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself. The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.

Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on.

Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will.

To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I’m sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, “I think I’ll die if you don’t marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don’t turn me down,” etc.

Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, “Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I’ve only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I’ll go straight out and kill myself!”

This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to “sell himself” to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn’t love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time.

If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: “John [or Diane], I’ve been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn’t face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can’t be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I’m reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I’m aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I’m going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He’ll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I’ll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead.”

Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can’t believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn’t necessary to fight off her advances — her grasping hands — any more.

“But there must be a catch,” he thinks. “It’s too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she’ll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She’s really weak, you know, and she’ll crack under pressure.”

It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious — that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance.

If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously “grabby” lover begins to let go of the cool spouse:

The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased.
As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, “How can I get out of this mess?” he now asks, “Do I really want to go?” Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home!

The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better — somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return. Even though it is difficult to let go once and for all, there are ample rewards for doing so. One of those advantages involves the feeling that he or she has a plan — a program — a definite course of action to follow. That is infinitely more comfortable than experiencing the utter despair of powerlessness that the victim felt before. And little by little, the healing process begins.

This recommendation is consistent with the Apostle Paul’s writings in 1 Corinthians 7:15, “But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. God has called us to live in peace.” Paul is not authorizing the rejected spouse to initiate a divorce in these instances. He is, rather, instructing a man or woman to release the marital partner when he or she is determined to depart. The advice I have offered today is an expression of that scripture.

Journal,

This is the only time I have ever kept a journal. Reading back over the posts, it offers pictures of a journey or process. The short of it is that "everything passes".

The utter agony that tears you apart doesn't last. Eventually equilibrium returns. You focus again on the moment, on your daily life. You accept change. Sometimes it offers no alternative.

One of my girlfriends swung around to look at me today and exclaimed "You have your laugh back."

Many people in this forum are experiencing the worst pain of their lives. If I can offer anything, it is that regardless of outcome.... Eventually you will get your laugh back...

Oh, our dear PB -- Do you have any idea at all how very much you have offered here over the months !!!

Your wise, calming words have touched so many...

Bless you, carnation

Hey Paradise,

I'MMM BACK!!!! The weary and rather smelly fisherman has arrived home safe and sound. None too early either. The kids just don't seem to place the value on the flowers I do. Wilted and dry to say the least.

Caught a ton of small fish and nothing big. We have 8 pounds of Yellow Perch filets on ice for a fish fry this weekend. All we are waiting on is my Dad. He turns 75 Friday and that comes first. He is still up at his camp in the Sierras waiting for a break in the heat to come down.

I'm glad to hear your laughter has returned. Now all you need to do is heed the post from the other MLC site and steel yourself for a different future. Start yourself a map and get a plan going. Plans can and do change but getting started and choosing a starting point will only lead to more and more laughter. This ought to help: We caught so many fish Sunday afternoon our 5 gallon bucket was overflowing with flopping slimy fish. Naturally I was seated right next to the bucket. By the time my friends had finished throwing all of these fish all around the bucket and my seat I was covered in slime and really foul smelling water. 2 hours of fileting the catch did nothing to improve this either. By 11:00 pm when we finished I was the least popular camper on whole lake. Offers were made to start a ritual fire to burn the now rank clothing until I said only if they stood and watched a naked duk do the fish dance as they burned. That ended all fire talk quickly!!!

I had a great time and never had more than a drink or two any day of the trip. Never went to dwell land either. I felt good the whole trip and enjoyed every minute. Recovery for me is finally taking hold I think. It was EX's birthday yesterday and I didn't even remember until we neared town on the way home and remembered I didn't take any house keys with me. I got worried the kids would be with the EX and I would be left sitting on the porch. Luckily for me the EX chose to spend the weekend with the OM somewhere and the kids were both home. I feel sorry for her today, a special day without your kids just doesn't sound that special anymore.

Happy dreams and thoughts of laughter all night!

Eibrab,

MOW's entitlement is born of lies, deceit and infidelity. You have a richness of life and family to carry you that cannot be denied by anyone. Believe in yourself and what you have endured and accomplished thru all of this. You have nothing to be ashamed of or to feel sorry about. Can she say the same? Can she truly look in the mirror each morning and hold her head high, or does she have to practice at it?

You are the real woman in this picture and you need to remember that. She is reaching for straws and trying to grasp any hold on a semblance of a life she can. Desperation breeds more desperation. Keeping your home and family safe and secure will look much more appealing as time puts more and more pressure on the OW. I know from experience how unappealing a clingy and angry spouse can look. Don't let her get you to this point. I thought of you often all weekend and I hope in some way Paradise and my positive thinking will help you in some small way. Keep your head up, we're there for you when you need to talk.

Journal

Tonight, I installed a new door knob and managed to lock myself in the bathroom before I had it completely in. Blue stood outside watching me trying to wiggle the mechanism in a lengthy effort at getting out - a quizzical look on his face.

Undeterred with my Dad's 20 year old drill, I drilled my very first holes. I have never operated a power tool before. It was thrilling - even heady! I find myself lusting after one of those little leather tool belts!

The source of this unbridled confidence is just around the corner and comes in the guise of an old fashioned hardware store, dusty, stocking some 35,000 items or so the sign says - in no apparent order. Happily, it is operated by two dear old men who if required will draw me pictures and never laugh at my completely clueless questions. They are unbelievably sweet, patient and helpful.

Doing something you have never done before is so much easier - when there is expert back up! I may replace a kitchen faucet next! It is so much more interesting than working with numbers.

Speaking of numbers, Midnight may be on OW4, I noticed a cheque of his made out to a Jeanette, aptly noted only as expenses! Yikes!

Dawn is just coming up. We are off to the beach. ...

Dukhuntr, I am so glad you are having serious - stinky fun! Eibrab, I will be saying prayers for you as I walk along the water. Chin up girl..

PB and Duk...

Funny how love and admiration travels through words. I dearly love both of you.

Your words, Duk..hit home. Simple advice that is so well heeded. I would think it may be a goal of MOW to see me crumble and become a person that H doesn't wish to be around, whether she would be with him or not.

I should tell you that we, too, have spent the past days fishing. We actually had the bass boat up on Lake Erie on the 4th to watch the fireworks. It seemed there were 100 of boats there. H is so proud of his "Skeeter", where I look at those cushy, well-pillowed cabin type cruisers with jealousy.

I love the water..I am politely jealous of Paradise's abilty to cruise the shore at any whim. That must be good for the soul.

I am SO thankful for the thoughts here. I have found myself consummed with anger and keeping it very well-hidden. I am a very silent woman now, where as I used to be a talker.

I have nothing to say.

If you will bare with me, I will lay it all out here for your wisdom... I truly think it is a problem within myself moreso than within others.

However, one of my dearest friends is my blacksmith..who yesterday says to me as he is bent over in very unbecoming fashion under an anxious mare.."your life is so entangled in problems caused by other's.".

I suppose that I cannot solve it all.... but I do wish I could start by getting my blacksmith buddy to wear a good belt.

God Bless both of you..

Eibrab

Eibrab,

Go ahead and get everything out there. We will listen and offer what feeble advice we can but most of all you will get attentive listeners and sympathetic ears. Once you get it out of your head and out in the open it seems to free you up to think about other things. At least it does for me. I am still seeing my IC for this very reason. I don't like to burden my friends anymore, they have grown weary of my drivel. Only my fishing buddy Mark never seems to tire of my BS. Of course he is also the only one who has gone thru an A also. His first wife really thought he would allow her to sow some oats while they were married and had a 5yr old daughter. She seemed quite surprised when he divorced her.

She went so far as to try and sabotage his second marriage a few years later. Late night phone calls, imaginary problems with the daughter when he and the new wife were ready to leave town on trips, etc. He had trouble with his daughter for years because of his EX. Only in the last few years as she has matured(she's 24 now)and become self sufficient has she come around to her father. Our daughters were born two weeks apart and grew up going to swimming lessons together, camping together, and going all thru school together. Mark is a teriffic person with a huge heart if you look past some rough edges. I have hunted, fished, played baseball and softball and gone thru school with him since he moved here in high school. Your true friends show up when the going gets the worst. Look past the plumbers crack with the ferrier. Or should I say look away?

Get busy with the keyboard and and vent to us, we would like nothing better than to help someone who has been there with sage advice and kind words for us when we needed them most. Friends do that for friends, and I do consider you a friend now. On the plus side you don't have to worry about how my pants sit on my [censored] either. No visual stigmas to interupt the thought process over the internet.