Carnation..

I wonder if we speak gently here about Dukhunter's post of prayer if he might sneak in and read it.

It brought me to tears, too.

The gentle, positive nature of the owner of this thread is something we may never see again in another human being.. very special.

The duck hunting, tobacco chewing, praying man is right up on that pedestal of "good" people, too..

I'm glad that you and I fit in here. It must say something for us.

Thank you for your thoughts, my friend.

Eibrab

Eibrab,

I am again sitting at my desk surrounded by paperwork, thinking about how your day is going. I hope everything gradually improves.

The Harley's do telephone coaching too. It might be the easy way to start a dialogue that would lead to true communication and understanding.

Lately, when I contemplate Midnight's thoughtlessness I ask myself if we are the creators of our lives, why did I create him to behave like that. Instead I try to focus on the traits I have always really liked in his nature, hoping that when we interact those traits will come to the fore.

No one is the sum of their actions in one day or one night or one year, remember all the wonderful things your big kalook has done over the many years you have shared together, it will give you balance.

I am heading out on a three day possibly four day sailing trip, you and yours will be in my prayers....

PB

Okay you two, I appreciate the sentiment but now you are making me feel bad about something that was supposed to help you not make you cry. I have spoken my peace for you Eibrab with the heavenly powers and we'll just have to wait and see if I hold any sway up above. You do sound better!

No relationship comes with any guarantees or warranties that is for sure. You would hope that long term relationships such as the ones we have all been in would carry a little more respect from our spouses. Obviously that is not always the case. It does not mean though that we have to lower ourselves to their level and disrespect something we cherished.

Eibrab, after much thought and a few prayers for you all I can say is be yourself. You have the wisdom, courage and integrity to do what you need to do, whatever you decide that is. Be patient, respectful and calm in everything you do. Do not allow yourself to go "dukhuntr" and lose your self control and in my case all sense of rationality. It takes far too long to recover you balance in life if you do .

Eibrab, Oh Eibrab!!!

Where are you? Don't scare me like this. At least chime in to say you are okay, please! We care about you and just want to hear you are hangnig in there.

(((((Eibrab))))))

Hopefully some peace will enter your life soon.


duk

Okay "Your killing me smalls". Where are you Eibrab and more importantly how are you? Throw me a bone and post something that lets me quit worrying about you!

duk

Hey Dukhuntr, Eibrab, and Carnation,

I'm back, tanned, relaxed and smiling. I share Dukhuntr's worry. Eibrab, please let us know how you are doing.

The trip was fun. Four days went by like four hours, we moored off beautiful islands, ate simple meals, read by flash light, swam, walked the dogs on rocky beaches and talked.

I have great photos of my girlfriend up the mast in a bosum’s chair. A 35k squall came through with torrential rain – over in 45 minutes, it left us all thoroughly soaked and grinning. Calm waters gain appeal by contrast!

The last day, we tooled around Kingston looking for electrical parts, listening to my girlfriend's sixteen year old daughter's taste in music - the All American Rejects –“Moving Along”. Two generations nodding to the same beat.

Last night, curled up to sleep on the deck due to the heat, I watched the stars jump about the sky with the bobbing of the boat – feeling at peace.

These days I smile a lot. Last year at this time, I was one of the walking wounded. Now I am pleasantly hopeful, with an abiding faith that with time, we will all find our way.

Wishing each of you well and happy ...

Paradise

PB,

So glad to hear you had a great trip. Where was Blue? With Midnight? Poor dog, will he need to be de-skanked again? Sounds like you had a lot of fun and some excitement to boot.

Our girl Eibrab has me very worried and concerned. Nothing since you left. Do you have any other way of reaching her? I hope all is well and they went somewhere together to work things out. She is such a kind and considerate spirit, I hate to see her get beat down like this. Call out the darma llama, or whatever he is called, she could use all the inspired help she can get.

duk

Hey Dukhuntr,

It is worrisome isn't it. She may be just regrouping. When you are in the midst of turmoil - sometimes words are difficult to come by...

Blue enjoyed the trip immensely, clad in his life jacket and a huge grin! He leaped in the zodiac for his walks in the untamed wilds - like a pro-cruiser pup.

Curling up with me, at night exhausted, snoring and still smiling. The last night of the trip - I slept on deck and he stood sentinel - I think the whole night. He was grumpy on the ride home! A quick visit to his favourite beach changed that.

I have been trying to catch up. I haven't been home much in the last week.

I hope you and yours are well. Have faith, Eibrab will chime in when she is ready....

PB

Dukhunter and Paradise..

I am so very sorry for worrying you. PB is right, I have no words. Maybe that is a sort of regrouping?

Last Saturday was the annual picnic for all the little league baseball teams. My H is one of those in charge. It was also my daughter's 14th birthday.

When the kids and I arrived an hour and a half early..there was already an army in place working. One of which was MOW. The child was there as well toddling around.

It was a difficult day. No one, including my selfish H, warned me. MOW has never attended these types of events before. Her oldest son does play on one baseball team.

MOW was dressed very provacatively. She ran the show. She bossed everyone around and tried to do all the jobs. I never saw H directly speak to her or acknowledge her or the child. It was very sad. I did see her on occasion retrieve things from the back of my H's truck where most supplies were. She shied away from nothing.

It was painful for my children and I. We did well. We held our heads high. At one point, I saw H walking between two tables and MOW following fast behind. H was completely unaware. The law of logic would have held that MOW had the right of way, but I stepped abruptly in front of her accidently stepping on her foot.

I apologized.

I never said one word the rest of the day about anything to H. Not one word. I promise.

I did break down the next day for s short time in my tears. I had so badly wanted some sort of positive recognition from H for my behavior and grace at the picnic. I received none.

I was embarrassed, but somehow serene.

I don't how I feel right now. I don't know what is up. Gut instinct tells me that there is nothing going on between the two...but the sudden resurgence of this woman scares me and shakes me to the core.

She is the kind of bold woman who does not put up with losing. BTW, her H was not in attendence.

What do you suppose those who knew thought of me?...why do you suppose that even matters to me?

I need help. I know this. I feel as if I am the strongest person on Earth, yet I feel as if I could be ill at the very thought of this whole situation.

I owed you all words here. I apologize for hiding. I am becoming someone that I am not.

Thank you for caring..

Eibrab

Eibrab,

I have been pondering your last post while I worked away at my desk today, went out with friends tonight and finally while walking the dog in the rain.

There are examples on this board where people overcome the OC challenge. Either on a no contact basis or with continued contact with the OC, some have even adopted the OC to raise as their own. There are inspiring successes achieved by ordinary people with extraordinary compassion, humor, love, practical wisdom, true communication and whole hearted commitment to their marriage.

I wish someone who has successfully handled this kind of challenge would pipe up.

Both you and your husband need help with this. Did he ever write her a no contact letter? OW(s) in my mind are symptoms of a problem not the root cause. It is like focusing on an invasive vine that appears to be strangling a tree – when in fact the tree is indifferent to the vine but is simply not getting enough water.

If his plan is to ignore the situation and pretend that everything is fine and normal. Then he is ignoring the fact that he is causing you pain by putting you in situations that hurt your feelings. That would be disrespectful of anyone's feelings.

Allowing your wife and a skimpily attired, still interested former lover to be together in a social setting is insensitive on all counts. Your son and husband need to drop out of this league. There are many other sports they can enjoy.

Allow yourself to feel your emotions. Observe them, they are a guidance system of sorts. Shutting down, becoming silent, withdrawing into yourself because it is too painful not to – is not the best option here.

I would opt for some telephone coaching with the Harleys, they have seen this type of situation played out before, experienced first hand what works best to resolve the conflict between your husband and you.. You would benefit even it you are doing it alone at first.

Each and every one of us - has to decide what will make us happy. Often we find it out by the contrast of the things that make us unhappy.

Life is not meant to be endured. It is meant to be enjoyed. A wonderful abundant creative experience that is best savored and shared – not wasted in a blur of anxiety and pain.

You two need to come to an understanding of what circumstance, boundaries and commitments will best support healing …..


PB

PB, Dukhunter & Carnation...

H is absolutely opposed to any outside help with any of this. He says that I am the only one with a problem. Everyone else seems to be able to get over it.

Do you truly believe that? When I saw this OC, I felt nothing. No compassion, no ties. It makes me sad.

I do not think that even the threat of losing me would prevent the football season from happening. It would only punish my son and make me look selfish, I suppose.

On a day to day basis, he is back to treating me as he has for the past year and a half. Can anyone offer me insight into male thinking?

I have almost reached a point of drawing a map to MOW's house and sending H on his way, though I am quite certain it is not her that he wants.

This town is too small.

Eibrab

(((( Eibrab ))))

Oh honey, I am clear across the country at my son's and finally figured how to log on here. I had to reach out to you.

First, I do not remember, are you on meds ? I know I could not have even survived without my xanax / ativan. Both work very well short term...

A very wise one on here asked me this, so I am going to ask you too.... not trying to be harsh, but -- desperate times sometimes call for desperate measures.... here goes

What would you do if you were

not afraid !!


That jumped out at me at the time and hit me right in the heart. Just something (more) to think about... You do have someone in RL to discuss all this with, right ?? If I was home, you could talk to me 24/7.

Raising my hands to God and begging him to give you some peace. And, I do believe it is ALL about you now..


yours, carnation

Dear Eibrab,

I am torn in a way. Sometimes, taking your attention away from what you don’t want in your life is best. Ignoring things that means your thoughts don’t dwell on them giving the circumstances or people involved more strength or influence over your feelings. Often those feeling are negative and your whole life becomes negative as a result.

I walked by my OW1 this morning and I too felt very little. I simply ignore her, I am so good at this now, I can do it fully relaxed. Her dogs use to run to me barking for my attention and treats. Now we all ignore each other even when just a few feet apart. I very seldom think of her. I am ashamed that I also feel very little compassion for her either.

Often expensive therapies don’t work because they just make you think about the problem more and it gets bigger with all the attention you give it.

Notwithstanding that, there are clearly communication issues in your marriage and your husband’s actions are not considerate of your feelings. I don’t think it is selfish to want to avoid someone who has caused you and continues to give you pain by her inappropriate comments and behavior.

At some point in the future when the wounds are not so fresh being in the same social setting may be comfortable. It clearly is not the case now though.

I think you are right. Your husband has no real interest in this woman. She is not the issue. Resolving your differences and healing your marriage so that it resembles the happy union it I am sure once was – is.

It sounds to me like your husband is backing away from the mess he has made and is backing away from you because of it. In one of our few talks, Midnight told me he just couldn’t live with such a big awkward mess. It overwhelmed him.

You need to recognize that you are the one that will make it or break it. If he has truly withdrawn from you – then using the divorcebuster model might help more. They also offer telephone counseling. The focus should be on a practical stratagem of action, not on dissecting hurt or allocating blame!

Agree with him, that you have a problem. Let him know that you are going to seek help for it. If he doesn’t want to participate – it is his choice.

Carnation is right, anti-depressants are a viable option if you are having trouble functioning. I used acupuncture instead – which seemed to work too. I doubt any rational man would want his wife to go on anti-depressants simply because she can’t take social contact with his OW at football gatherings. Lose the football!!!!!!!!

It is not selfish to not want to be in pain!

What would you do if you were not afraid? It is an excellent excellent question.

It is a long weekend here and I will be going out of town to a friend’s country home. I may be able log on there. I am not sure. I will pray for you daily… wishing you strength, acceptance, peace and most of all - humor!

Rent funny movies… laugh… it is what you need most!!!!!! Like anything in life – this will pass…… You will heal…..

PB

Eibrab,

I'm not sure it's worth much but I will tell you what I think. H is doing his damnest to put this behind him and ignoring all others in the process. He probably is mentally and emotionally tough enough to pull this off himself. What he is forgetting is you. If the two of you are to make a go at this he needs to at least listen to your concerns and to your boundaries. Have you set any? Does he know what is alright by you and what hurts? I know I have said this over and over again but we men are dense. Talk to him and set the boundaries you need. Write them in a letter if it's easier. He may remember them then.

If you are getting the feeling that nothing is going on and it's true, get to talking. He is doing what he feels will set the world right again for you, your son and his family. He does not sense you still have a bunch of healing to do in the trust area. Thus having MOW around does not phase him. He is past that in his head and expects you to be there too. Again, not fair to you but remember he's a man. We think and feel differently than a woman and can look past something very disturbing and hurtful to to the opposite sex. I sincerely hope you are right about nothing going on there still. If you can get him to talk and to live by some boundaries you stake out this can work for the both of you. I just hope he is able to listen to you and to understand why you still have your "hot buttons". Trust building does not occur overnight.

Before you send him the map to MOW please show him the boundary stakes you expect him to live by. I know it should be simple for him to see but with all he is having to deal with unless you are clear and loud in your requests he will blow right past them and not even realize it. No one ever said recovery was easy. I may be past wanting it myself but there was a time I would have given all I had for the opportunity you have right now. Find a place and the time to decide what it is you really want. There is no rush to make this decision either. You need only to think about PB to see this in real life. In the mean time set your boundaries!

As always-Hoping the best for you and your family.

duk

Duk...

May I ask..and I can handle the truth...does this scream that he is still involved with MOW to you?

This is a taboo subject in our home. We do not speak of it.

Eibrab

Eibrab,

In no way does this scream that to me. The situation alone would make any BS hyper vigilant on snooping. I'm sure if something was up you would know already. That is part of the problem, you can't relax and let your guard down as things are.

Being in a constant state of tension and doubt works on your nerves and your good nature. Setting the boundaries will allow you some room to relax and to build on your trust with H.

It's okay to snoop and I hope you have been. H should definitely understand this. You have to catch him doing the right things a few times too. Eibrab to be honest you sound like you have just hit the end of your rope. You sound tired and ready to give up. Am I even close here? As I have said before everyones tolerance level is different. Get some professional help for yourself and find out of you have reached yours.

duk

Carnation...

I have spent a few days pondering your post...and your question. I have to wonder.. is this fear?

I suppose it is. The fear of losing the man I've spent my life with..The fear of starting over... The fear of a split family... The fear of having to parent a child that is the result of an act of complete disrespect towards my family?

Gosh, I don't know.

If I wasn't afraid. I'd still be here. I hesitate to ever portray myself as one of those woman who proclaims " He doesn't mean to hurt me... he loves me." I am fully aware of how I am treated at times. I am fully aware of the actions of my H, though I do not understand them.

Still... I know that I'd be here. I truly love this man, though my logical mind would tell me that I deserve differently.

Since the birth of this child that resulted from my H's A with a local married woman, we have found a peace. No, we do not communicate about this problem at the insistance of H, but still, there is a peace that lingers. It is only recently, that it seems that MOW has gotten bored again and wishes to cause trouble.

H will deny this.

The recent phone calls, the football team, the picnic..and just yesterday, I received in MY own business only P.O. Box an emergency room hospital bill addressed to H regarding the OC. I may not have shared this with all of you in the past, but it was MOWH's demand that NC be in place and that my H be required to provide health insurance for the child. This was an intelligent ploy for MOWH, as he was not certain of the longevity of his M and this would provide an avenue for him not to pay child support on this child (willful recognition on the part of my H by providing health care) even though MOWH is on the birth certificate.

So, for me to be sent a bill in my business P.O. Box after over a year seems odd. I called the hospital to inquire as to why I was sent this and was informed that this was the address given at the time of registration of the patient.

Herein lies my anguish. I feel that MOW is back trying to cause problems. My H will not listen to me when I address this and calls me paranoid..telling me that I have "problems.".

I am truly a very sane, intelligent person. I like who I am. I feel as if I cannot choose whom I love, and I trust that God must have a plan.

What I desperately need help with is dealing with a proud, selfish man whom Dukhunter seems to be able to grasp in words, and what I believe to be a soul-less woman who seemingly can't handle herself in any amount of respectful fashion.

I wonder why my world appears this way.... isn't it sad?

Thank you, my friend. Your prayers mean the world to me.

Eibrab

Paradise and Dukhunter...

Again, I apologize for muddying this thread with my own selfish concerns. This has always been my "beach". I come to read here everyday to feel a peace.

This whole subject is not peaceful to me.

I have considered anti-depressants. My father was an alcoholic. During one family counseling session when I was very young, the counseler looked at my mother and warned her that I would be a problem. I have addictive tendencies.

I have always resented that implication. Therefore, I never drink.. have never been drunk nor have I ever taken one puff from a cigarette. I am afraid of an addiction. I'd like to prove that schooled authority wrong.

I have sought conseling one time during all of this and was met with an opinion that I "seem to have my thoughts in order.".. I receive far more help from reading as I do.

I like to read...it helps.

I do feel as if I am reaching the end of my rope in having been disrespected. How does one combat words from my H such as " why do you worry? You're the one here with me.".

Sigh.

I wonder what this challenge in life means for me..or it's purpose. I wonder if I am meeting it.

Thank you for caring.

Eibrab

Eibrab,

You can "muddy" this thread all you want, we care about you and want to be there to support you and offer our help any time. An outside perspective allows us to be detached and offer unbiased opinion. And remember it is only our opinions. We are not professionals and I really do wish you would choose to try one. There is no magic bullet they offer, simply an experienced ear and a calming influence on those who sorely need it.

As for meeting the challenges of your life you have not only met them you have for the most part conquered them. The only challenge remaining is to find an inner peace for yourself. Your H is there with you not with the OW. This is his choice. You did not control him in making this decision, he made it on his own. You will never control him or what he will do. You know you love him and want him in your life, show him this part of you. Control how you are around him and make this second chance happen for the two of you.

You have nothing to fear if this does not work. You have already shown your H, the community and all around you how strong and confident you can be. Believe in yourself, no matter what, you will survive and live your life for what it is, a gift to be enjoyed every second of every day.

Hi Eibrab, Dukhuntr and Carnation:

Sorry, I was waylaid on my way back to town on Sunday by a tempting spur of the moment offer of a couple days stay at a friend's back woods cottage near Algonquin Park. It was bliss.

We barbequed steaks, kayaked on a quiet deserted lake, listened to her twelve year old son's endless supply of jokes and talked for hours about everything by candle light.

When I got her call I was in transit on my way home from spending the weekend with friends who have just retired and are tackling the renovation of a century house, built before confederation. It is very cool. There were seven of us, who stayed for the weekend, visiting the local sites. Growing old with friends who you have known since you were young, makes it easier some how.

Now, I am now back making very long lists of things I need to get done. I have been much less focused on work since Midnight and I broke up. I often do things on the spur of the moment. Spending time with friends is hands down my priority these days. I sincerely wonder why it took me so long to get my priorities straight.

Throughout my travels I have been praying for you Eibrab. I have been thinking about how hard life's lessons can be.

What does pain teach us? What did I learn from Midnight’s mid life blow up?

Perhaps, that going through life expecting other people to make us happy is a mistake. Expecting that happiness comes from getting someone else to meet our needs, behave as we want, think as we want – simply doesn’t’ work.

Quite often even if they did everything we thought we wanted – it still wouldn’t make us happy until we get to a point in life where we really “get it”.

Happiness comes from within.

Sitting in a kayak this morning, looking out across a still lake, watching the loons, the pine studded rocky shores, I focused just on breathing .. just on being. With every breath we can choose to be happy. It is our birthright because we are alive. We are part of an amazing manifestation of positive energy.

Life is incredible! If we look for it, we are awash in beauty, surrounded by peace, and embraced by love.

Kids are closer to this reality. The two year old you see dancing around in a bank line up having a whale of a time – is acting on the profound.

Forget the MOW. Ignore your Husband’s self centered nonsense. Instead focus on you. Wake up each morning happy that you can choose to a certain extent, what you would like to do that day.

Try doing something completely different every once in a while. Hop in the car, drive to a near by town, explore, shop, whatever… Have fun!

All of these issues are going to be with you both for a very long time. Introduce a re-born enthusiasm for your daily life and see where it goes.

Out of every change in life – there are positives. This situation has been profoundly hurtful for you. Perhaps the positive is that you now realize how strong you are. How graciously composed you can be in the face of extreme insult. That your love for your husband can survive even his most craven weakness. That you can wisely ignore those whose confusion leads them to try to cause you pain.

Those are just marvelous things to know! Be proud of your self! I know I am proud of you!

Cheers

PB