just wanted to say hello. hello!
you are in my prayers.
very busy week.
peace,
holiday

Thanks for your advice dukhuntr,

I just had another fight with my husband over the phone - same old stuff - the OW is still in his office. But now lately, it seems he tries to make ME look bad in front of family, kids,friends, etc. Talking to everyone about all the guys I went out with 25 years ago (I've been with my husband for 20 years) how I was married before and the marriage failed because of me (my ex was abusive) - really hurtfull and mean things. I think it makes him feel less guilty about what he did.

This is just another thing that is driving me to "the brink". I told him it's got to stop. The OW has got to be transfered. I'm going around in circles and it never ends.

I just don't know what to do anymore. Can it work with the OW there? Am I being unreasonable? He says he isn't involved with her anymore - nothing to do with her. Am I just a "sap" wanting to believe everything he says? That's the way I feel.

One day we're fine the next day we are fighting like "cats and dogs". How long can this go on?

Sooohurt,
This is exactly what you don't want to do if you can muster up the courage and will not to. Everything he is doing is "fog talk". It seems to me they do it to rationalize in their own minds the pain and suffering they know they are creating for their families and friends. Ignore it and let it run off like water off of my favorite bird's back(ducks). If you really do want to save this marriage you need to be firm on him having NC with the OW without LBing him away from you.

You need to present yourself as strong yet understanding to his poor choices. Not as judgemental and angry. This is where I went wrong and I'm divorced because I could not stop myself from doing this same thing. I know how hard this sounds and is, I failed at it. Allow yourself the time and space to cool off and think about what it is you really want. In the mean time you are giving the WH the same time and space to think not just react to you. Cornered humans react much the same as animals, they lash out and attack when backed into a small space. Do you really want him back if he does not want to be there? Give him the time and space to decide and make yourself be the person he turns to for his EN's. Be the safe haven he needs and he will see it eventually.

Don't try to fix things immediately, all of this takes lots, and lots of time. Use it to work on yourself and your issues. We all have our own demons and quirks to work on. Now you can improve yourself and feel better for it. I know its easy for someone else to say all of this but remember we all have been thru it. Its terribly hard to do but your marriage depends on you right now , if not more that him. There is not a lot you can do to help, just a lot you can do to impede progress or drive him further away.

Get your anger and frustrations out there to us in these forums and vent to us not him. We will listen and help as much as we can and no withdrawals will be made from his love bank that way. Keep it up you still have him from what I hear so you have a lot more hope than you think.

dukhuntr

Dear Dukhuntr,

Thanks for writing. I just had another fight with him. He has been indicating that the OW is in the process of being trasnfered - well at least he was taking the steps with the proper personnel. I thought he was just jerking me around, so, I called up Human Resources. Note, my husband told me on several occasions that he talked to the HR Director and other higher up personnel several times about this - even that I would leave him if nothing was done about the transfer. Well, much to my surprise, well maybe not too much surprise, the HR Director doesn't know about any transfer for the secretary. He said my husband hasn't told him anything.

I confronted him on this issue when he came home from work. My husband said he DID talk to the proper people and I should believe him, not other people-they are not going to tell me any information. I know these people - talked to them before. I begged him to tell me the truth - come clean. He swears he is working on the tranfer.

He stormed out of the house and went to his mom's! What are you views and comments on this?

Sooohurt,

I'm sorry to say that it sounds like he is cake eating. Have you exposed the A at his place of work? I find it hard to believe a union company does not have a policy in place regarding relations between supervisors and employees. Even if you haven't exposed there, a well placed call to the HR director informing him of their relationship might hasten the transfer you desire.

Exposure will fuel a rage if you have not already done it so brace yourself for some fury on his part. He will tell you all about how much damage it has caused and so on and so forth. Again, all fog talk. Let it go and don't respond unless you have read up on reverse babble here. I can't think that quick so I just don't respond any more. Read Paradise's posts and try to be as patient and detached with him as she is with her WS when he is doing his thing. Use her actions and thoughts to guide you, I cant believe her WS can look her in the eye any more without feeling like the total louse he has been.

No matter what, present yourself as someone that can and will overcome anything he does. Show him that what he is doing is to himself and you will not be dragged down to his level with him. And most of all let him know how much you love him, but at the same time you won't share him and live that life any more. That is the boundary you have to set. What you will and won't accept while you are together.

Read up on the MB principles on this website and by all means find a MC or IC to help you get thru this. My MC/IC has changed my life considerably over the last 7 months and I will never regret a penny spent on this. Lastly I hope you have some sort of physical outlet to immerse yourself in. I went to the gym everyday for 12 weeks after D-Day and lost 45 pounds. Without that I think I would have done something stupid to either them or myself at some point. To much to think about and not enough ability to change anything is a hard thing on your psyche. Sweating it out seems to soothe the harshness and make things easier to deal with.

Be the eye of the storm and let the winds swirl around you, not within you.

dukhuntr

Thanks again Dukhuntr,

My husband is a director, he is not in the union, but the OW is. She has been with the company for 25 years or so. She has only been his secrtary for 1 year or so. I did speak to the Human Resources Director, but didn't go into detail. Just asked if my husband is or is having the transfer being taken care of. The HR director, flat out told me he didn't know of any transfer. Wouldn't he mention my husband talked about it to him (which my husband said he did on several occasions). I told the HR director I wouldn't put up with her working with him - I had my facts straight and he can talk to my husband. I also put in a call to someone even higher up (which my husband said he talked to). I have yet to get a call from that person - have to see what he says.

My husband said he will leave me if I make a scandal! He will get another job - which now he says he can't do. Make sense? Not to me.

We tried a therapist. Didn't work. My husband didn't think he did anything wrong - didn't know why he was in therapy.

Now all he is doing is saying bad things to friends, family, kids, etc. to make ME look bad because of what HE's done. I'm so tired of all this back and forth bickering. I didn't do anything, yet I am paying for everything. He wants to call all the shots. I don't want to break up our marriage but he keeps pushing and pushing.

I too do lots of things to keep my mind off of this. My dad has advanced Parkinson's Disease and I visit him every day. I do stuff around the house. I'm going back to work - I had to leave because of my dad. I also do stuff with my 2 girls - things run so smoothly when I'm with them.

Thanks for letting me get a little anger out.

Sooohurt,

If you read MB's guides and all the available materials you will come to see all of this is per the same script of an affair. Affair babble is what he is telling family and friends bad about you to make his indescretions seem less than they really are. Exposure to these people will reveal all of this and make him sit up and take note that you wont put up with it anymore. If you dont expose and the affair continues what have you gained in you silence, continuation of the status quo? Same as his workplace, expose the A and see what happens. Without exposure all I see is him continuing to straddle the fence between the two of you for as long as he can get away with it.

You have given him ample time to bow out of this gracefully and without scandal. You deserve better and you should expect more of him than you are getting. Show him your strength and do this for yourself. Let him know you have your own values and you can't go on forever living a life of deception and grief. It's clear to me you are meeting many of his important EN's or he would already be gone. Ask him to meet your EN's in return. Fill out the Emotional Needs Questionairre with him and see where the missing pieces are.

Our thoughts and hopes will be with you and I hope things turn around soon. Keep positive and pay special attention to your children they have to be feeling this too.

dukhuntr

Dear Dukhuntr,

My husband thinks all the stuff on this site is nonsene - just a bunch of loosers and hopeless soles. I guess I'm one of them.

I think I mentioned before that I honestly believe he isn't involved with the OW any more. I confronted the two of them at the office and spoke to her personally, in front of him. I asked how she can do this to another woman? She admitted that she loved him, thought she would marry him someday. She told me he indicated, not said, he would leave me. My husband then blurted out that he didn't say he was going to leave me. The OW told me the affair was over. Then I told her to leave him alone or I would beat the crap out of her. Called her an ugly big nosed, wrinkly, #"$%^.

The door was closed, no one in the office heard anything. I felt good after saying that to her. When she left the office she said, let him go he doesn't love you. I felt that I got stabbed in the heart.

This is the reason I think he's not seeing here. What do you think? Is it possible. Can he work with her and not bother with her?

Journal,

Arrived safely at home, to estatic puppy and much tail wagging, body wagging joy....

Met two ladies in their 70s on the plane today, they were sister-in-laws, both widows. They had traveled to Cambodia and the Czech Rebulic this year because they decided to see the world in alphabetic order. Currently, they are working on countries of interest that begin with C.. very cute, savy world travellers.

It always strikes me as strange how fast things shift when you travel. Yesterday evening I was sitting in Glam-Gallas Palace, under five enormous crystal chandeliers in a beautiful baroque room lisening to a classical orchestra, imagining graceful women in elaborate heavy gowns stepping delicately about the room. Now I am home.. dog at my feet...

I enjoyed the trip and in particular my brother's company. He is getting older and while he probably wouldn't admit it, he liked the city time.. doing concerts, walking, exploring. We stayed in a modest 5th floor walk up, apartment suite, several metro stops from Old Towne but with a private bath and kitchen. He barely grumbled about the expense... a sure sign he was having fun!

Going to make a quick cup of tea, give the dog a walk and then I'm off to visit Dad.

``````````

Dad looks much the same, not as strong as I would like. His nurse said tonight that this afternoon he told her, he didn't think he had too much longer... maybe just this year and that would be it. She is a graceful girl of east indian descent, just a great smile and kind heart.

We talked for a while until he got tired and nodded off. The dog and I sat with him while he slept. It was nice just to lisen to his breathing.

~~~~~~~~~~~`

Talked to my husband upon my return, lots of business items that need attending to, I have a busy schedule the next few days.

He has signed a lease on a small sub penthouse apartment a 12 minute jog from our home - water view - apparently an ideal bachelor pad layout. Not as far as I would have liked but at least not right next door either. It seems kind of surreal to talk about which pieces of furniture and which pictures he will be taking.

He doesn't seem as giddy these days. I can tell he missed me. He has always hated having me far away. Yet, he is still light years away from being the man I know.


Ultimately life is so short. I am trying to let go and just see what comes... focusing very hard on staying positive. Life is all about choices. In away this frees me up to do things too.

My brother and I have decided that when my Dad passes, we will scatter some of his ashes on the beach he landed on in Normandy where so many of his friends died. He would like that. It will be a bittersweet trip...

Yet having had a glimpse of Paris through a plane window, I know there will be happy moments too... whoa - shoe shopping in Paris!

One thing about dealing with the prospect of death, is that it throws into high relief how we postpone living. My Dad always wanted to go back to Normandy. He never did. He got busy.

Hi Soooohurt,

It sounds like you up to your chin in affair fog. Sorry, no dice on whether or not they can still work together. They cannot. Particularly if she is still keen.

I have been in your shoes. Frankly, if I had packed house and moved us to a different town two years ago. I don't think I would be where I am now. Somewhere on this site, Dr. Harley says it is impossible for an affair to end if the OW is waiting in the wings. Very true...

You need to have him change jobs, if he cannot arrange for her transfer. Dukhunter suggestion of exposing the affair at work is a good one. His comments are right on the money. Although, if this woman has had previous affairs with other collegues - it may indicate this company does not have in place appropriate policies for dealing with this kind of behaviour. Unions can be very protective of bad behaviour.

The only other advise I can suggest is not to take it personally although I know that is hard to do. Right now, it isn't really about your shortcomings, or the weaknesses in your marriage. It is about someone who is trying desparately to shift responsibility - to project blame.

Best if you don't say a whole lot .. until there is hope of having a real conversation with someone who is rational. Nothing you can say is going to penetrate his self absorption - right now anyways.

You can't deal with this kind of pressure without finding some mechanisms for relieving the stress. Go do something nice for yourself...find a distraction... something happy to think about.

Ultimately, whether or not your marriage survives is much more in your hands than his. To save it you need to pay close attention to the information available here ... and keep your wits about you. Money spent on anything that helps you do that - what ever it is for you - is actually a great investment in your family's future happiness.

Cheers,

PB

Thanks,

I don't know what to do anymore. He knows I am on this site for MB and he's checking everything I say and do. Said that I'm listening to other people giving me advice - I'll be alone, without him, with the computer if I keep listening to everyone. Says the people on here are slandering him. He can read anything on this site, because anything I say is true - but he blows up when he reads the stuff I say.

Last night we had a big fight because he said I didn't believe him (that he was TRYING to do something about transfering the secretary). Threatened to leave - even started packing suitcases. I said if he leaves it will be his decision, not mine. He insisted is my my fault because I didn't believe him. He lied so many times - I just can't. I told him to give me some kind of proof, that something is going to be done about the secretary. I told him if someone in his office (some official) said something was in effect for transfer, I would appoligize to him.

We kind of made up. But, I don't know how much of this I can take. I love him, but I can't stop him, he's so hurtfull. I never did anything to him - why is he hurting me so much, saying bad things about me? All I ever did was love him and be faithfull. Why, Why, Why????

I don't know if I can write to this site anymore because he checks all my e-mails, etc. - it just causes another fight.

Hi All,

Poodling at the computer before getting down to work here and I found a great link which has many wonderful pictures of one of the towns we stayed at - Cesky Krumlov. It is a virtual tour. I also am posting one on Prague.

Thought some of you may enjoy it...


http://www.virtourist.com/europe/krumlov/index.html

http://www.virtourist.com/europe/prague/index.html

Soooohurt,

I apologize if anything I have written has insulted your husband or in any way hurt his feelings.

I am quite sure if you two have been happily married for 20 years and you still love the man deeply enough to put up with what is just a hurtful nightmare - that he must have wonderful qualities.

Affairs don't happen to just bad people. They happen to everyone. There is something in the three person dynamic that alters how people behave dramatically - to the point they are unrecognizable - pod people.

Eventually, the fog clears, I believe that is when most WS have a very hard time dealing with their actions. Everyone gets hurt in a triangle. The timing is just different for each of the parties.

If your husband were dealing with a business problem, say his decisions had undermined a business partnership. Would he respond by continuing in the problematic behaviour, refusing outside help, lying about the situation, projecting blame. If he did, he wouldn't be a director for long.

Maybe, as a business leader, it is time for a little plus and minus column analysis. What does he lose and what does he gain? It sure looks lopsided to me.. eventually it will look lopsided to him.

If he is refusing face to face counseling and doesn't want you to have any manner of support through this - well it is nonsense isn't it.

There are other sites that are good for this. If he doesn't like this one - how about using the divorcebusting site. It is quite useful too.

This isn't just a 'they are a bad person' kind of scenario. They reference the WS script because everyone even the best of the best on the planet when in his shoes go through the same thing. Some hard wired trigger in their brain has got them in a mess and their poor beleagured grey matter just can't cope with it until the flooding of emotions subsides.. so they talk nonsense.

I am sorry for you both and in particular your children they will bear the pain of this more keenly than either of you may realize because they are looking on with fresh innocent eyes. They are helpless - they don't have the ability to change the situation for the better. Whereas you both do.

PB

PS. I know Soooohurt that his actions have really hurt you but to save your marriage, you cannot allow yourself to hurt him back. So you have to avoid the negative. This is not the same as enabling. Just give it time... and don't fight... it doesn't help right now... reflection does. Sometimes you just need to stay clear of each other until some semblence of true communication can be had.

I wish you both luck...patience...humor...you will need all three.

Good morning all...
Good morning SH, soooo sorry you are here. PB and Duk are very wise. So keep venting here.

I believe your H is acting this way because he can not, at this time, handle the pain of causing you your pain. Possibly to him, this OW was only an escape of some sort. However, if he has any conscience, and sees her at work everyday, then he is unable to handle her pain (although between you and me...she earned it herself by dealing with a married man) as well. And I agree with PB, they can no longer work together. Your H needs to respect your right to BREATHE!

Continue as best you can to be loving, because you love him and have made the choice to do so. If he threatens to leave (which I feel is a call for help from a man who knows not how to ask for help) don't guard the door. After so many threats you may ask him to leave. He won't be able to call the shots then.

I feel you need to make some boundaries. If he continues to do things that do not prove he is trying to make your marriage work, then you may need to move on to a loving plan B.

As far as MC in your past, my H and I went down the same path. She was a good MC, however never, I felt, got to the true issue, that it was wrong to have sex with another woman while you were married.

How long was your WS's A? How did you find out about it? Perhaps I have missed your posts.

PB-Glad you are home safe and sound. And glad to read you have "puppy" again. 12 min jog from your home? Yes, that is better than next door. Has you H told you he needed to take anything from your home? Perhaps that is why he asked you to help decorate?

Try to all find peace in your day. This too shall pass, somehow.
holiday

Good afternoon Holiday,

I know my husband is probably going to read all this stuff and blow up when he comes home tonight - but all of what I say is true.

I found out about this in June 2005. The usual stuff, staying late at work all of a sudden, picking fights with me for nothing, constantly talking about the secretary,hiding his wallet, looking up divorce sites on the computer. I guess I ignored it for a while, even though deep down inside I knew.

It was my daughter (she's 18 now) that first bought it to my attention - is dad having an affair? I said "Oh dad whould never do that to me - it's just the way he is". More fighting, crying, etc., etc. My daughter again, a couple of months later said are you sure dad is not having an affair. My response again, no not dad - he loves me - would never do that - he's just like.

Well this jolted me and I started snooping around. Well, I found a receipt for a Valentine's gift, cash taken out of his business account for no reason, more late nights (which I logged), checking wallet, etc..

I confronted him with the evidence. He denied, denied, denied. Said I was crazy. I told him either tell me the truth or we were thru. The next day he confessed and told me some of the truth. Husband said affair was a couple of months, but he loves me and it is over - he told the OW so. I confirmed this with her. He said he didn't know why he did it.

The no contact just didn't work for me. I begged him to do something, transfer her, have him get another job. He refused anything for about 3 months. Then about a month ago he started the procedures to have her transfered. But when he told me this, I didn't believe him. I think he should have started the process as soon as he confessed - not a couple of months later. Lots of wasted time, hurt, crying, fighting for nothing.

This other woman can never "fit into my shoes" - I know that, in anything. That's what makes it so hard to believe it happened. I could never inflict this kind of pain on him, especially with all the other things that are going on with my dad (Parkinson's) and other issues in the family.

I did get a confirmation from the Union Manager that my husband did get the "ball" rolling on her getting transfered. I wanted to hear this so much. Now, I have to wait. I'm trying so hard, I want to believe all he says.

I JUST WANT OUR MARRIAGE TO WORK AND BE HAPPY AGAIN!


I

Sooohurt,

I'm glad to hear that things are indeed moving forward on NC. Don't stop here by any means. Your relationship has issues that need to be dealt with irregardless of the OW. I suggested the Emotional Needs Questionairre earlier. Print it out from this site and sit down with your H and work on changing the environment at home that allowed this to happen. Right now you both are going thru a period of change and withdrawal and without the help of a MC you need to make the adjustments and changes on your own as a couple. Having the OW out of the office will help but it's not the solution to the problems.

Continue to find ways to fill the love bank with your husband. Identifying what was and still is missing in your relationship is just the beginning. The hard part will be controlling the resentment, judgements and anger that will drain what you are trying to build back up. You said something very prophetic in your last post. " I just want our marriage to work". Well start working on it, because it is work. Use this as a painful and eye opening wake up call to that fact and get after it. Again you may be the only one working for a while because of withdrawal for your H. Take Paradise's advice and be patient and persistent.

Holiday said I was wise in her post and that may be the first time anyone has ever said that about me ever. I don't think I am but I have been taught a very emotional and painful lesson this year and I have learned from it. We all have learned from our experiences and you don't have to go thru it twice to learn this lesson!

Take this start as a good sign and go out and treat yourself and your children to something special. My daughter also pointed the way to discovery for me and she is 23 and still struggling to adjust to our split family. If progress is slow with your H spend the energy created by the nerves and anxiety on your children. They need to see that their parents will be there for them always.

dukhuntr

Paradise,

Thank you for the link. I am very jealous now thanks! Cesky looks like a beautiful retreat from the reality of all of our difficulties. It must have been made ever better by having your multi-lingual brother there to get around and communicate. The river thru town makes it perfect in my view. Not over developed or as trashed as ours here in the states. Did the people match up with the sights and views? I have bunches of questions about the food, and the experience in general.

How about a chapter in your journal about the first thing that comes to mind in your memory of Cesky? I am especially curious about the smells that come to mind. The scents that are in the air are the strongest memories for me of places I have visited. Each is unique in its own way. San Francisco has it's own ocean scent and so does Anchorage. What is the first scent you remember from Cesky? My imagination is telling me a mixture of bakery and deli smells. Could be a manure farm nearby who knows huh!

Glad to hear all went well and that the puppy survived your being gone. Sounds like good news about the move for WH too. Couldn't you stuff his mailbox with fliers for a development 30 minutes away too? Keep up the happy thoughts and think back when the demons creep in.

dukhuntr

Holiday,

Wise is not what I am used to people referring to me as. Other unprintable names yes, wise-no. I learn from people like you and Paradise. All I am doing is trying to learn from what has happened to me and become a better person because of it. I my mind the only other option is to become bitter, jaded and resentful for the rest of my life. Not what I would consider as a better option. If I can let people know what mistakes I felt I made in my marriage maybe it will make me look even deeper within myself to see how I contributed to my own problems and help heal some of my own wounds.

Every time I read either your posts or paradise's I can usually take something away from them to think about. It really does help to move your focus off of dwelling on whatever has stuck in your mind that day. Thank you for all of your thoughts, I do look forward to reading each of them.

dukhuntr

Duk, how about changing your name to Wisolowl? (or Wisyngowl...don't know your age <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.)

You are wise. You've come to this site even after all that was said and done as well as a divorce and are offering such great input. And you are wise because you have now taken the time to work on yourself and figure you out, for if and when it should happen, start a new relationship with someone. I believe one can not begin a good relationship nor a new relationship until they have corrected or got in touch with their own issues. You are doing that right now. Very proud of you!

I have been through this lesson twice, do you really consider me wise? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope sooohurt's H will begin to read our posts with an open mind. This will only help her to move forward. Supporting her in her time of need. After my H confessed to all that was done last year, he wrote me a special note telling me he was sorry for what he had done to ME and that it was MY time now. That helped a great deal.

I believe sooohurt's H when he says "he doesn't know why this happened". I think WS's have "temporary insanity" issues. Hopefully with or without a new MC he can find his way so this won't happen again.

Sooohurt, check out the book Point Man by Steve Farrar. This book helped my H big time.

holiday

Holiday,

How about "Wisefowl" as in some type of intelligent waterfowl. They do have a brain the size of mine- about the size of a peanut! And yes I consider you wise! You have negotiated your way through this twice. Twice as wise and the patience and faith of a saint. I could not be patient enough to make it through the first time.

Funny thing about sooohurts and my former spouse, mine said the exact same thing last week in my birthday e-mail(I turned 46 last week). "I don't know why this happened" must be their way of saying "I didn't know how to say no". Insanity? Maybe, more like "I'm not real happy at home right now and this might be a way to feel better about myself"? Who knows without being involved in every conversation and every meeting they have had. All I know is my EX went on to say I would have done the same thing if I were in her shoes! Nice birthday wish huh! I think that one sentence in an e-mail finally convinced me I was not dealing with someone rational and cognizant.

You should feel blessed to have a husband that recognized what he had done and expressed it to you. I have pretty much given up any hope that I will ever hear anything like that from my WW. I am sure I don't want to hear it yet. Not emotionally ready to deal with that.

New relationships? I am happy being alone right now. Paradise is starting to influence me big time! I moved from my parents home to a home with my EX at 20yrs old. Never been alone before and I am really starting to enjoy it! I can go hunting without worrying about someone else's schedule or timetable. I can stop everything at the drop of a hat and take offers I used to turn down to hunt, golf or fish. I had a friend send me this quote the other day and I think it fits me to a tee.

"When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one that has opened for us"- Helen Keller